|
|
|
|
|
| | On the Existence of God and Other Sundry MattersPage 27 of 30 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30) | I would say 100 % of the major religions interpretations of the early teachings
are for crowd control but there are still some interesting info if you don't use religion as a tool for interpretation or prejudice against the info... Interesting means of conveying an internal condition to those around you who only understood in very basic external ways
over 2000 yrs ago.,,the negative internal aspects of mind externalized as a devil and ect.
I don't think anyone can keep everything separate .Thou they do keep trying .
 | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/4/2011 10:09:20 AM |
You know in the movie star wars when they talk all the time about "The force"Basically,That's what god is.God is all around us.
Another vague description that is impossible to prove. And not a very good example either, in those films some people could use the force to do things ( levitate objects, etc) and were thus able to show conclusively that their so-called "force" does exist.
I'm surprised Einstein believed in God.
He didn't believe in an anthropomorphic sentient god as depicted in numerous religions. And for the sake of argument, even if he DID believe in the Biblical god, as Carl Sagan said when discussing a prominent scientist/philosopher's mistaken ideas "being a genius is no guarantee against being dead wrong". | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/4/2011 7:07:12 PM | In Einstein's case, I don't believe that the Sagan observation, as correct as it is, would apply. There are numerous quotes of his, where he asserts that, to peg him to a belief in a single deity, was wrong. I provided his very quotes, one in rebuttal to a Catholic figure, and reflecting his dismay at such an assertion, in previous posts now, I believe, twice. But I reckon I'll have to dig them out again, once I get to my office -- I'm operating on modem card capacity as I traverse the Labor Day Holiday, and, it's s-l-o-w, compared to T line capacity.
But, I suppose, those very words of his are ignored for the sake of one organized religion or another, having their way.
And, that's wrong. | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/4/2011 9:17:17 PM | I did a little more searching & tracked down the exact quote by Sagan. I knew when I made my earlier post that he wasn't referring to Einstein, but the quote is still applicable to the topic under discussion, since claiming someone whose intelligence isn't doubted ( in this case, Einstein) believes in God isn't proof god must exist, it's just an "appeal to authority" argument.
The quote ( from the book & mini-series "Cosmos" is:
the astronomer and geographer Ptolemy, who compiled much of what is today the pseudoscience of astrology: his Earth-centered universe held sway for 1,500 years, a reminder that intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong. | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/4/2011 9:19:56 PM |
But, I suppose, those very words of his are ignored for the sake of one organized religion or another, having their way.
Not sure the words are ignored by organized religions, but they ( and similar words by other well-known people) are usually cherry-picked, with pages of text omited & one or two sentences taken out of context to "prove" their claim. | |
|
| |
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/4/2011 9:46:40 PM | 60to70,
Long time no see. Welcome. Why is it so awful. Alan already answered that question in the post just above yours.
It ain't right, no matter how ardent of a Believer you are, to shang hai a brilliant scientist like Einstein, by cherry picking or otherwise distorting his true beliefs. He deserves more respect than that. May he rest in peace. | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/4/2011 11:10:23 PM | Hey Krebby...I missed your profile pic. lol.
But...that did not answer my general question. His reply only addressed the misconceptions re: Albert Einstein.
Can we continue to debate why it is so awful and illogical to believe in God?
Beyond the vagaries and demonstrable crimes of organizied religion? | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/4/2011 11:20:35 PM | Well, put it this way, if a favorite uncle of yours was as kind to you as the Easter Bunny, but also happened to be a wife beater, could you ignore the latter?
Seems to me like ya gotta look at religion tha same way. Just on account of "purdy sounding words" in yore own world, but at the same time, the mechanism of religion, that is, organized religion, is doing some downright "wrong" thangs, can ya ignore the latter.
I'll leave it up ta yore own situation ta answer. Me? I done decided. | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 12:16:24 AM | Why is the idea of god? apart from organized religion so awful?
Most people here haven't said this.
My roommate considers herself very spiritual, but has no use for organized religion. And most atheists don't care what anyone chooses to believe.
The problems all seem to arise when "organized religion" gets involved/created and begins codifying people's faith/spirituality and distills it to that particular religion's interpretation, which generally results in an "our beliefs are right, everyone else's are wrong & because of this they need to be punished/killed/censored/converted to our beliefs/ designated as sub-human so we can enslave them etc etc".
This us and them attitude is bad enough, but then religions which have enough members often start believing this gives them the right to give their faith special status, and they then want it in schools, in the laws & legislation of the land and so on. | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 12:58:39 AM | | O.k. Alan I thoroughly understand the aim of your argument...clearly and without a doubt...but still. Why not believe in God? And...coded in our fundamentals in Canadian law there is a separation between the Church and the state...apart from the Catholic schools. Yet, I work with children and even the children not yet indoctrinated know that there is the issue of God. Their view is innocent and untainted. I, by the way, have to read their registration pckgs and am aware of any religious affiliation. A heavy percentage have no organized religion in their background. Yet, so many of these sweet little beings have no doubt. I can rationally understand why one abandons a belief in God...but I still wonder why the belief in God raises such ire and indignation? | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 3:22:22 AM | Most need the failures of religion to convince there own minds that they are truly separated and purely physical just how the ego likes it.They use it to further prevent themselves from looking inward to the real problems by claiming religion dose not work so it must all be wrong.They use it as an excuse for failing to look themselves . Lazy minds lost in the ego's dream and they like it that way,it's the only way they know,yet focused heavy on fragmenting everything external/ physical to get to the "truth".. Anywhere but inward.
Everyone thinks like they do so they must be right,,,,,,,right? | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 4:37:45 AM |
I can rationally understand why one abandons a belief in God...but I still wonder why the belief in God raises such ire and indignation?
It's not the belief in gods that raise such ire and indignation, but rather the need for the believers to force their beliefs on others or subjugate others to their theocratic belief systems. There would be very little strife over the subject if folks were content to live and let live. But as cultures go through stages and growing pains, the religious majority feels compelled to fix it all with theocracy. God is THE answer for all. Get with the program or become a second class citizen or worse.
Here in the US, the theocrats have been steadily gaining ground in the last couple of decades to the point that three of the top contenders for president in one party are not only theocrats, but dominionist theocrat followers, a cult intent on global christian domination. To be honest, that sort of friggin insanity creates a lof of ire, indignation, and pissed off rage. Here in the Babble Belt there is a constant push to put the 10 commandments if public institutions, hold preyer events (they are preying on the unbelivers) at schools, and all manner of breaking down the wall of seperation. The Murfreesboro hatefest against Muslims, KKK activity, the Hispanic/Latino know nothingism, the growth of christian identity hate groups all attest to the worst of this growing theocracy movement.
If people would just hold their God in their hearts and homes and houses of worship there would be none of that ire and indignation. They just cant help themselves though.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622
http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/152034/meet_the_christian_dominionist_'prayer_warriors'_who_have_chosen_rick_perry_as_their_vehicle_to_power/
http://www.alternet.org/story/152271/inside_the_christian_right_dominionist_movement_that's_undermining_democracy_/ | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 5:02:54 AM | Yep,your dealing with people and some will use religions external teachings as literal to reinforce their own minds focus on the external/physical to project responsibility of ones actions outside oneself(Externally,the devil/god made me do it),,, but were not all like that,
not fare to lump us all together. | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 8:43:21 AM |
Why not believe in God?
You could just as easily ask "why not believe in pixies?"... or leprechauns, ESP, reincarnation etc etc.
The answer is because there's no evidence to support such a belief. I am perfectly willing to change my viewpoint & accept the existence of God if someone was to provide clear concrete evidence of God's existence. No such evidence has been ( and in all likelihoodnever will be) produced.
Yet, I work with children and even the children not yet indoctrinated know that there is the issue of God. Their view is innocent and untainted.....Yet, so many of these sweet little beings have no doubt.
Your point being what? Children may also believe in Santa Claus and the monster in their closet ( or perhaps under their bed). As they mature, they abandon their belief in Santa & the monster because they realize there's no evidence they exist & it's just imaginary.... why should God & the belief in God be any different?
I still wonder why the belief in God raises such ire and indignation?
It doesn't. The belief itself isn't the problem; as I stated earlier it's those people that feel their beliefs should grant them special status ( such as having their beliefs brought into the classroom, or having their belief used to shape laws & legislation).
Or as these quotes put it:
It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ~Thomas Jefferson
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart. ~H.L. Mencken | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 10:51:29 AM | And that's all fine and dandy to try to take the high road of blaming the theocrats for your own personal agenda of pushing NO GOD ... it still looks like you have an agenda ... and are doing all the things you bytch about the other people doing that you say are wrong.
Double standard time again.
and all these ... quotes ..... they too are just fallacious arguments ... appealing to authority.
more double standards.
If there is no proof of philosophical ideas .... it does not mean we discard them and try to prove them wrong with appeals to authority and ad hominem attacks of authority figures you happen to disagree with.
In my eyes .... it does absolutely nothing for your arguments other than nullify them and does little for this discussion thread.
Why not believe in God ? ... Why not believe in perception being life?
Well ... we need to understand the grey area around God and perception. Then and only then can we say ... okay ... sure .... why not? When that grey area is still in question as it is .... we must or should continue discussing the grey area and stop assuming others know what our God and our Perception is.
| |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 11:31:59 AM | Naked Lunch,
I can certainly understand both Alan's and your perspective. My position is still that both religion and science in its myriad forms can survive. Yet historical events must be taken into consideration. Some of them come to mind. For example:
(1) I spend my summers in TX, where we happen to be in one of the most serious droughts in recorded history (as evaluated by length of time). There, Governor Perry has led efforts (successful) to hold state-promulgated "prayer" meetings, one praying for rain, and another for the stock market to recover after one week of chaotic fluctuation. The week after the prayer meeting, we had the worst week of hot weather up to that time. The Monday after the second meeting, the stock market took its biggest dive. But I digress. The founding fathers of the U. S. were careful to make separation of church and state a reality, because they were fleeing religious tyranny. From my perspective, that separation is eroding, and these eroding tendencies can be placed at the foot of organized religion. There was no "gray area" then -- there is now.
(2) In the same state, as well as others, intelligent designers are still trying to include that theory into high school science textbooks.
(3) The Large Hadron Collider was supposed to be built near Waco, TX. But the project was moved out of country. Why? At a state hearing, the scientists were asked, "How will this project add to our understanding of Genesis?" (I paraphrase since I don't have the exact quote). The scientists could not answer, or answered unsucessfully vis a vis the senators' desired answer. Kabach.
(4) While I was on this POF forum page yesterday, I had the TV tuned in to the History Channel and was watching a show entitled, "The Real Jesus." It was really informative. According to that narration, Jesus stepped into the religion that is now deemed as his creation, after John the Baptist was summarily beheaded by the Romans. Why? Because John the Baptist was leading efforts to establish a "fringe" religion, one that would be an attempt to empower the peasants, who were being taxed to heck and back, both by the Romans and by their state. Many, many, peasants lost their farms in order to pay the taxes.
So, unilateral or government/religion dictatorships always seem to wind up in unsavory consequences. What will happen if efforts by politicians like Perry to turn the U. S. into a Christian Nation? What would be the fate of the other religious groups. Remember, Christianity itself was one such "fringe" group. What could one say about Constitutional right to freedom of religion?
What I'm trying to say is that, yes, there are gray areas, and complex phenomena in need of explanation. And, in those areas, we should let spiritualism reign supreme, to whatever source it is anchored to, so long as they do not interfere with efforts to discover further.
In other areas, areas that I"ve mentioned above, and other posters can perhaps come up with similar examples, there's not much "gray" there. These are efforts to establish the very narrowness, perhaps even tyranny, that the founders of the U. S. and other contries, and that, John The Baptist, was rebelling against.
So when such events transpire, there is a need to "push back," by adopting a more aggressive position, to inform the "gray area," so to speak. Even, if historical accounts are correct, John the Baptist did this. His successor, Jesus, was equally adamant about continuing John the Baptist's efforts. And he was treated just as dismally by the same group that done in John the Baptist. Are these not polar positions?
I hope that I'm being at least a bit clear on what I wrote. There's a show on the tube again. It's called, "How it's Made." Nice ditty of a show. | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 6:46:55 PM |
And that's all fine and dandy to try to take the high road of blaming the theocrats for your own personal agenda of pushing NO GOD
Not sure who naked meant his message for, but if it was meant for me, I have no agenda of "pushing NO GOD", I merely want theists to stop "pushing THEIR GOD" in the classrooms of public schools and in the legislature ( by that I mean wanting governments to adopt laws etc to conform with what those theists think is the correct viewpoint.
... it still looks like you have an agenda ...
I can't help how you want to view things. If you think my feeling anyone is free to believe whatever they like but ISN'T free to force their agenda ( in this case, their theism) onto others constitutes an agenda, that's your problem.
..... and I'm not
and are doing all the things you bytch about the other people doing that you say are wrong
Hmmm I say forcing religious views into public classrooms is wrong.....and I'm not doing that (forcing religious views into public classrooms) so I'm not doing the things I bytch about the other peole doing...
I'm also against theists having their theist views/beliefs forced into law ( their views on same-sex marriage as one example) and I'm not trying to force any sort of theist views/beliefs into law, so again I'm not "doing the things I bytch about others doing".
A couple quotes seem appropriate to this issue:
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
It is the position of some theists that their right to freedom OF religion is abridged when they are not allowed to violate the rationalists' right to freedom FROM religion. ~James T. Green | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/5/2011 6:51:35 PM |
Why not believe in God ?
People are free to believe whatever they like. The reverse is also a good question: why believe in God?
... Why not believe in perception being life?
Again, people are free to believe whatever they like. But believing "perception being life" sems somewhat limiting, and deosn't seem to require a God. Do mushooms & other fungi perceive things? They're alive. Someone can be in a coma, with no brain function but their autonomic nervous system keeping their body alive; is there any proof they perceive anything? If they don't, even though their heart is beating are they alive? | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/6/2011 4:41:18 PM | Over the Labor Day weekend, I stated that I would pull some quotes on Einstein's position on religion. Below are some quotes that should provide some (much needed, it seems) insight. In particular, the last quote speaks to Anasthasia's emthusiasm for trying to understand three complex theoretical systems through a more global understanding. My response to her was to say, "Slow down!" After having re-read some of Einstein's quotes, I realize that this was the wrong response.
Why?
The quote says it better than I ever could. Einstein was a brilliant man, in ways more profound than we think. \
****************************************************************************
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
(Albert Einstein, responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" Quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? 2001, chapter 3.)
A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)
The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism. (Albert Einstein
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954, The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)
What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility." This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. (Albert Einstein)
Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 214)
The area of scientific knowledge has been enormously extended, and theoretical knowledge has become vastly more profound in every department of science. But the assimilative power of the human intellect is and remains strictly limited. Hence it was inevitable that the activity of the individual investigator should be confined to a smaller and smaller section of human knowledge. Worse still, this specialization makes it increasingly difficult to keep even our general understanding of science as a whole, without which the true spirit of research is inevitably handicapped, in step with scientific progress. Every serious scientific worker is painfully conscious of this involuntary relegation to an ever-narrowing sphere of knowledge, which threatens to deprive the investigator of his broad horizon and degrades him to the level of a mechanic ...
It is just as important to make knowledge live and to keep it alive as to solve specific problems. (Albert Einstein, 1954
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/6/2011 10:55:36 PM | | Krebby...I would not worry needlessly. I have a fairly good faith that even those not educated in scientific matters know that they have no say in what matters. Really...what matters? A sense of wonder?...if you do not have thousands upon thousands of dollars to investigate and educate yourself ...what is the truth? | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/6/2011 11:13:56 PM |
I have a fairly good faith
Good for you ( I don't mean this in a sarcastic way), and no one can deny you or anyone else that says they have faith actually have faith. If someone with faith starts claiming they have proof of their faith, that's when an issue with non-believers can arise, and the non'believers can challenge & question your "proof".... they can't question your faith though.
what is the truth?
That one's easy:
truth
noun, plural truths
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/6/2011 11:20:22 PM | quote] what is the truth? [/quote
The truth is reality, 60to70. And the truth is owed to the pampered kings and queens of whatever royal family to the person who is known as a "street person." Everything relies on the truth.
From truth, will come the removing the shackles that bind the Appalachian hillbilly to poverty, and from truth will come the removing of privilege from the lazy pigs who, through stealth and weaseling factors, allow the privileged to get away with theft.
It all relies on empirical evidence. You can pray all day long. It's up to science to uncover the real truth. That's why my chips are layed on science.
A preacher, every Sunday, pontificating on this or that, is still engaged in feeding "purdy sounding words" to make ya feel better, as you go back to a trailer house, and a meal composed of whatever leftovers you're fortunate to have.
The common man deserves better; society is built on the back of the common man, who devotes muscle and toil in the mere interest of survival.
Purdy sounding words (organized religion), versus efforts to discover new ways of ensuring for a higher quality of life for everyone, including the most poor (science).
You choose.
I done made my decision, as you well know. I'm a scientist, who came from the poorest of families (migrant farm workers). I will never forget. I'm a scientist now and I"m proud of it.
(Though, at times, I forget that I'm a scientist, , and my doggies and I, .... well, we head down to a Pow Wow, and just enjoy the essence of life. It's all good stuff. Sleeping under the stars, with my doggies chewing up on them left-over beef ribs, with fry bread ... simply understated ... by a long shot.
We all need a sense of reality from time to time. | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/7/2011 12:07:45 AM |
and my doggies and I,
Someone who has doggies can't be all bad.
Man is a dog's idea of what God should be. ~Holbrook Jackson
I think we are drawn to dogs because they are the uninhibited creatures we might be if we weren't certain we knew better. They fight for honor at the first challenge, make love with no moral restraint, and they do not for all their marvelous instincts appear to know about death. Being such wonderfully uncomplicated beings, they need us to do their worrying. ~George Bird Evans, Troubles with Bird Dogs
I talk to him when I'm lonesome like; and I'm sure he understands. When he looks at me so attentively, and gently licks my hands; then he rubs his nose on my tailored clothes, but I never say naught thereat. For the good Lord knows I can buy more clothes, but never a friend like that. ~W. Dayton Wedgefarth
A dog is not "almost human" and I know of no greater insult to the canine race than to describe it as such. ~John Holmes | |
|
| On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 9/7/2011 12:30:11 AM | LOL,
Good quotes; I love them. A doggie is probably closer to a sense of reality of truth in the sense of compassion, love, and commitment to clan than most human beings.
Yet they rely on us for existence, and we well know the atrocities that they suffer as a result of their innocence (faith).
'
It's a lot like the common man -- they have faith that, somehow, they will be taken care of, but they often don't know where they ought to cash in their chips.
In my book, yeah, they know that their fate, like canines, relies on the strategy of others -- that's well and good (faith). Yet, all of a sudden, they vote for Tea Party folks who are probably as far from a desire to look after their interests as Gangis Khan.
Dogs don't vote; they just do. But they make sure that their clan (family) knows that they love them, and they make sure that they act on behalf of the clan. Like, for example, this summer, my canines turned into herding dogs, to make sure that cattle got to water. Need I mention that I was so forking proud of their devotion?
I'll look after the interest of canines as far as the day is long; as far as them poor people are concerned -- if they hang around the Tea Party and other right wing/ corporate interest causes -- they deserve what they get. And if they keep on repeating "organized religion" mantra, and opposed to science's efforts to try to make things better -- they deserve what they get.
Meaning that dogs are probably smarter than some folks, even while they're being treated like 3rd class citizens.
What's up with that? | |
|
|
|
|
Page
27
of
30 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30)
|
|
Home
login 
