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| | Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent DesignPage 29 of 54 (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54) | @ AKK - your 'brains in a jar' analogy was absolutely an invitation to suggest you believe it is not worth trying to think.
you also argued that evolution and creationism were both unanswerable which is simplistic.
creationism is complete nonsense from start to finish. it is a feeble attempt to rebrand bogus science as real science by a small community of narrow minded zealots and is only worth the paper it is written on because one day that paper may be worth something at a freak auction. creationism is incredibly easy to understand because it is completely obvious why it exists and where it came from and who made it all up. unlike every other kind of science (scientology isnt science of course), it makes no attempt to verify what it postulates. it starts with an end state then sets out to twist the facts to fit the end state - that end state being that the bible is literally true... how that equates to scenarios with man and dinosaur walking together is a bit of a mystery - the bible's authors didn't know about dinosaurs.
creationism has been proved to be complete bollocks, which wasn't a very difficult thing to do. however, like another recent invented truth, mormonism, it remains fixed in some peoples' minds as true because their pastor says it is so.
it does not equate on any level with the theory of evolution. the pope agrees - well the last one did, he had to, the evidence was all around him and he knew it would be madness to continue to resist the blindingly obvious.
you do not have to believe a single bit of evolution if you do not wish to. better than that by far, you really can go out and find it out for yourself. you don't have to be an expert in everything from single cell reproduction to carbon dating to paleo-anthropology, but you can instead pick at random any single part of the subject - literally any part - and become even half competent at it and try as hard as you possibly can to disprove evolution - and you will not be able to do it.
but in the staggeringly unlikely event you do somehow manage to disprove even a tiny part of evolution, be assured every scientist, professional or amateur, with an interest in evolution will sit up and listen. they may well try to deny what you have established by criticising it to death... however if what you uncover continues to withstand the tests, science will adopt it - that's what science does.
science doesn't hold on to a theory for the sake of it, it does so because it believes that theory to be true - it believes so because the theory has been tested to death by everyone who possibly can, from every angle to the point where it is safe to treat it as fact... and that is when a hypothesis gets the crowning glory of being accepted as 'a theory'.
if it turns out, as happens from time to time, a theory has a serious challenge, then that's all fine and dandy. there is no church of evolution ( i certainly hope there isn't) with a book of 'what must be and never to be challenged'... on the contrary, darwin would be furious if we had all accepted what he had to say and took no further interest. there is much to know about evolution that we do not yet know, but it is in the detail - that wil need to be worked on for a very long time, but dont confuse that work in progress with something that isn't sufficiently complete for everyone everywhere to be able to hang their hat on what we do know. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/12/2012 3:36:04 AM |
I agree, but try telling that to the pope.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html
They did already (note the date in the article). The Vatican accepts evolution as reality.
But why would you want to end a debate that you have full opportunity to ignore? | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/12/2012 4:55:54 AM | This is completely correct, which supports my point.
If you can't be sure beyond reasonable doubt, the evidence is inadmissible and any conviction is bupkiss.
That being said, no one here can prove or disprove we are not brains in a jar, or more specifically that I'm not the only consciousness and you're all figments (apply to self as needed).
We can speculate thoroughly that evolution is probably a lot more likely with scientific evidence, but only to those that understand science with marked repute... just like evolutionists can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are correct, it's just that you don't understand God like they do...
But... more importantly the whole argument goes out the window if you cast reasonable doubt on existence as a whole... ie, we are all brains in a jar...
Since there is no proving or disproving, this qualifies in a court of law, and specifically in debate, as reasonable doubt, nullifying either argument...
And why did I do that...
Because there are fundamentalists on both sides that "believe" rather than know, and no amount of discussion will sway them, so discussing it at all is pointless.
The only time to have this discussion is when you are voting, running for office, influencing your children or discussing the notion with someone who is still undecided and able to be swayed on the issue, otherwise it's a massive time hole that is completely unproductive and wasteful.
I think you missed my point, which is that science is based on incomplete data (if you want absolute certainly, look to religion). Scientific theories are basically what we know to the best of our knowledge at that point in time. In fact, your brain in a jar analogy (which is a philosophical argument, not a science one) is why science adopts this model in the first place - we can never be absolutely sure of everything so let's build our knowledge on things we can know. That is, even if we are brains in a jar or inside The Matrix, there are still some things that we can know, and that's what we base science on (like I said, it's tentative knowledge).
Having said that, there are theories that are stronger than others and evolution is far and away one of the strongest. Evolution is one of the most tested and reliable theories that man has ever produced. It underpins all of biology (as one biologist said, nothing makes sense in biology without evolution) and explains virtually every feature of living organisms. It has also been proven beyond all reasonable doubt by genetics and the fossil record. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/12/2012 7:33:32 PM | and to the hard core thumpers .... those perceptions are the only truth ....
too bad the science thumpers and religious thumpers are so narrow minded. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/12/2012 7:59:44 PM | Again, I'm not at all arguing against evolution...
Never have...
The point I'm making is that you're not going to convince anyone that doesn't want to be convinced here.
Christ thumpers, even if evolution is supported by the Vatican, will continue to denounce it and state that creationism is the only way... and they will continue to build their theme parks where christ is riding on a dinosaur and try and present that as scientific fact and attempt to get it taught in schools to our children (ugh).
If that's the case, it's best just to pat them on the head and give them a cookie like you would a child you wanted out of the kitchen so they are distracted and do less harm.
Yes, it's extortion, but sometimes it's easier for everyone that way and the only alternative is genocide, so you know, you gotta kinda pick your battles. | |
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Inicia
| | Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 706 | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/17/2012 10:26:03 AM |
http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v8/n6/full/nphys2339.html
A link about science and abstractions. Good luck...
In general, science is very careful to avoid statements of certainty.
In terms of the thread topic it's well known there are gaps in the evolutionary record.
But the proofs regarding evolution are not based on abstractions, and the process of natural selection wasn't derived from abstract modelling.
If you are trying to cast doubt on 'Theory of Evolution' and thereby provide support for the 'alternatives' then posting a warning about the dangers of abstraction is probably not a good way to go about it, considering that they rest on entirely abstract foundations and not only completely lack physical support - they actually conflict with the real (non-abstract) physical evidence. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/17/2012 12:05:25 PM | ^^^ on the contrary, the universe seems to be a place of extreme order with more or less everything doing exactly what we would expect it to do, to the point where we think we should see x because we see y .. and there it is - damn!!
it obeys all the rules exactly - our problem is to establish what all those rules are.
for chaos, look no further than life - except life follows all the rules too - its just that it is so much more complex than the pure physics that drives everything that isn't life... it drives life too, but we call that other things!! | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/17/2012 9:23:34 PM | @ fredforties
That's an interesting topic that I've often enjoyed... At what point does the boundary cross from order to chaos? Isn't total chaos an actual order of sorts? And if so, isn't the reverse also true?
It's a fun mental exercise... right up until someone needs to be right and starts insisting on their own interpretations... | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/18/2012 2:37:22 AM | | ^^^ perhaps, but i wouldn't trust a doctor who didn't get evolution - the religion i can live with. however i have met doctors who believe in creationism ... and that's too much for me. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/22/2012 6:42:15 PM |
Most of the atheist people are quoting this or that guy ,why can't you tell us your opinion ?
God gave you a brain,for heaven sake use it..LOL
Um, we ARE expressing our opinions, it's just that a lot of the times those opinions were shaped and informed by others. No man is an island - we all absorb knowledge and information from those around us (anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves). This is why books always have references, to show where the idea came from. If I am educated on these matters it is because - to borrow a phrase - I have stood on the shoulders of giants. Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Weinberg, Ehrman and many others have provided a wealth of knowledge and I regularly quote them. I feel incumbent on me to give credit where credit is due. However, if I have genuinely come up with an idea I will state it as such ("It is my opinion that...", "One idea that I had..."). | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/23/2012 8:49:23 AM |
Most of the atheist people are quoting this or that guy ,why can't you tell us your opinion ?
You overlook, for some reason, that many people are offering their opinions but then some are being courteous enough to show how they arrived at those opinions by also supplying the supporting facts.
This support-your-opinion-with-facts attitude is kind of important because many issues aren't simply, or only, a matter of 'opinion'. In such cases there is, in fact, a right answer and one that's definitively wrong, despite that someone may hold it as an 'opinion'.
Many science based questions fall into that category but so do such simple questions as "Is it OK to rub dogshit into grandads face?"
The answer ^^^ is 'no' by the way, in case you're confused about that too.
God gave you a brain,for heaven sake use it..LOL
'God' didn't give me, or you, a 'brain' and, more bad news, Santa didn't really give you that train set when you were 10 either. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/23/2012 10:06:12 AM |
Most of the atheist people are quoting this or that guy ,why can't you tell us your opinion ?
God gave you a brain,for heaven sake use it..LOL
very well.
forgetting the exam question, which addresses cretinism...+ A & O for the truly biblical to give us creationism.. and going with what you, dwight, are asking... your own particular god - the one and only jehovah, yarweh, gerhawwwddd,,, vs science (knowledge).
for science, knowledge, rationality, truth, logic supported by evidence of all kinds of description and nothing in all those disparate areas that contradicts it..... we have, in the blue corner, evolution. evolution which was proposed 150 years ago based on what knowledge was available at the time and which has, ever since, been proved to be right by whatever we have brought along or discovered ever since. nothing has dented the theory, everything has supported it and added to it to the point where it requires a staggering degree of denial to suggest evolution isn't real.
in the red corner... jehovah. no sign of jehovah anywhere. nothing he is supposed to be or to have done is supported by anything. in fact, he isn't even in the corner at all... just some beardy wierdos with placards saying he is about to come (yet again). none of them have ever seen him. he hasn't spoken to any of them. some people say he spoke to some people 2000 years ago and a few times before that and there is a cracking good story that sells very well about him and his descendants, but that's it.
so on balance, what do you choose to believe? that the solar system formed from a cloud of interstellar dust, just like the forming solar systems we can see elsewhere, and that the planets formed in the accretion zone just as we see elsewhere - better than that - we see it here and we thought up how it could or should or must have happened...using knowledge (science) and looked elsewhere in our galaxy to see if we could observe it elsewhere because if it happened here it must happen everywhere - and damn, it does, there it is - and bugger me, we can now even see planets ... hundreds of them, probably into the thousands by now... so we know how the planets formed and we know how our planet formed
and we know how old it is because we can measure it - not just with one method but with lots of methods and they all say the same thing... and none of those measurements says 4004 BC. which, as Richard Dawkins puts it is like believing that San Francisco is 79 yards from new york...which is not a trivial error...
and we know that the planet sits in the goldilocks zone where surface water can exist without freezing or boiling too often and we know that a watery surface is a pre-requisite for life (as we know it - there could indeed be others) and we know that somehow, life started quite soon after planetary formation in the order of 3.5 billion years ago and we know that it remained single cell for almost all the available time but at some point in the order of less than a billion years ago, multicellular life appeared, and that 500 million years ago, there was for some reason a significant take off of large multicellular life - the cambrian explosion... and you, me, anyone and everyone can go and take a small hammer and dig around in rocks of whatever age you choose and you will find in those rocks more or less exactly what you would expect. what you will not find is a rabbit skeleton in the jurassic - why not? because rabbits didn't exist back then but other life forms did - so where did those forms go and where did rabbits appear from?
2000 years ago - 1000 years ago, 500 years ago - we didn't know any of this. we didn't know about plate tectonics and the movement of the earth's crust, the cause of earthquakes, volcanoes and most tsunami, yet these things happened - as intelligent bipedal apes, we knew there had to be a cause for the effect but we couldn't get our heads round what really went on - we only cracked that stuff quite late in the last century - within many of our lifetimes... so it isn't a bad guess for a bronze age nomadic tribe, just like the recently discovered lost tribes of the amazon and new guinea, to have a stab at suggesting why these things happen. it's just that it wasn't a great guess. we know better now.
so whether god gave you a brain or you are the possessor of life's most powerful thinking tool honed and refined over 4 billion years, it is your duty to use it properly... not simply to believe everything anyone tells you.. go and find out for yourself
and that's my answer. i can go out and find out for myself about evolution. so can you. it is real. it is true. it is happening right in front of your eyes. whereas for thousands of years, millions and billions of people have been looking for signs of god... sum total of their search = ZERO.
so given everything we now know about life, the universe and everything else, can you, dwight, please explain why some people prefer to believe a 2000 ear old fairy tale which isn't just loosely based on some previous religions of the middle east but instead is almost a direct lift fro previous religions - including virgin births, predicitions of the return of the king, execution amongst criminals, miracle cures.....
it is beyond belief that some people, blessed with a brilliant brain, can continue to hang on to what is known for sure not to be true - the bible story - in preference to wht is blindingly obvious right in front of their face.
so dwight, why do you not use your brain? | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/23/2012 8:14:13 PM | Are people still being dishonest and careless about this subject in this thread?
you tube
dot com
the user channel "MrSolarWind"
If you really want to know what you're talking about, and want to understand the dishonest argument tricks people use, you should check it out. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/24/2012 1:14:21 AM | I am not religious, but I think I can answer this without bias and a major brain block, because you already know people who believe this way, cannot answer you.
The reason is because they truly and deeply want to do what is right, but they are too lazy to do put the work and study in to know what is true and right, so they find a crutch (religion in this case) that allows them to present a packaged answer that the majority which believe in that crutch say is true. In this way, they never have to actually learn for themselves if 10,000 things are true or not, they just have to go with the packaged answer that the majority of followers of this crutch believe in.
You know, follow the leader, but the leader is long gone and no one knows who that leader was or if he was right.
People feel much unearned strength, false power and empty comfort from following a large group of believers. They can trick themselves into feeling elation. Sadly, they never even spend 5 minutes to find out real truth for themselves by study by themselves, not a pre-written guide or other person, so they have no real foundation of belief and it will not hold them in times of real crisis, not media defined crisis.
You get one of these kind of believers in a real crisis and they turn into disillusioned God haters faster than meteor shoots across the night sky.
What I am trying to say is this...
If people that believe in God actually read and studied the bible they would see that it says the earth has been recreated many times and will continue to be. Not that the planet is destroyed, just the surface of the earth and its life forms go through dramatic change. Of course in recreating the the earth, the earth without doubt a few life forms are carried over from the previous creation. In science this is known as a catastrophic event. Science is aware of many of them, as the bible tells us. As well, some creatures carry over, like shark and roaches and MANY other creatures.
In popular religious belief, the earth was new for the first time 5772 years ago and Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. None of which the bible says. Now educated bible scholars know, but the average church goer and even their pastor or priest do not know. Don't ask me how they can believe in something without finding out for themselves, I can't answer that, I just know they do.
Take religion out of the question and you get the same answer, but it is called Mob Mentality or Group Think. People, as a whole, are lazy and no amount of education educates them, because knowledge is being open to reality, no matter where it takes you, even if the truth shatters all your rearing held dear. Most people prefer the lie and that is not exclusive to the religious. So why are you making this a religious question???
This reminds me of the day my sociology professor said the Clinton's were fake Democrats and was dead serious. Fake Democrats??? I PAID FOR THAT CLASS??? I never took another class without REALLY checking out the instructor first and talking to them and their past students and reading their ratings on rateyourprofessors.com
SS | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/24/2012 10:20:32 AM | Evolution is a story based mainly on fiction .The argument that the story of evolution is based solely on facts is a lie .A lie that they are forcing children to learn. If I found a plain empty shopping bag and then went on to tell you who owned the bag,what was in it before it was discarded ,where the person that owned it lived,the school they went to and so forth and then assured you the information is factual ,would you believe me?
Imagine that shopping bag was millions of years old and buried in a desert in Africa ? | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/24/2012 10:43:07 AM | If you had the equipment and expertise necessary to correctly determine those things, then yes I absolutely would believe you.
Apparently, you aren't educated at all about what actually can and can not be learned or known in science, hence you declare facts and truths to be lies, simply because you personally don't have what it takes to understand them. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/24/2012 10:59:52 AM |
If I found a plain empty shopping bag and then went on to tell you who owned the bag,what was in it before it was discarded ,where the person that owned it lived,the school they went to and so forth and then assured you the information is factual ,would you believe me?
The Theory of Evolution isn't based on shopping bags.
But say... if I told you there was an invisible man in the sky with mass telepathy powers and a poor understanding of the elementary water cycle who could do pretty impressive magic tricks that defied the apparently inviolable laws of physics but seemed confused about how inheritance works in corn, would you believe me?
I guess you would... | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 6/24/2012 1:28:09 PM |
Evolution is a story based mainly on fiction .The argument that the story of evolution is based solely on facts is a lie .A lie that they are forcing children to learn. If I found a plain empty shopping bag and then went on to tell you who owned the bag,what was in it before it was discarded ,where the person that owned it lived,the school they went to and so forth and then assured you the information is factual ,would you believe me?
Imagine that shopping bag was millions of years old and buried in a desert in Africa ?
You are proving yourself to be one very ignorant theist. The evidence that has been gathered for evolution is staggering, to the point where it would be ludicrous to deny it. The picture of life's history that science portrays is the one that best explains the data that we've found. Of course it doesn't tell the whole story (science is not religion, and never deals with absolutes) but it's the most likely explanation.
My question to you is, how much of evolution have you personally studied? What books have you read on it? What scientists have you seen/heard talk about it? What courses have you taken? What shows have you watched?
And you owns a time machine ??
Again, a very ignorant statement. A large chunk of science is based on examination of data, not from directly observing events.
Do you believe that the planets go around the sun? If so, then how? Do you have a spaceship? | |
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