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| | Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent DesignPage 34 of 54 (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54) |
Like a game of bingo has anything to do with a design of a magnificent and profound meaning. Ack. Silly biddies. period.
On the other hand thinking that there may be a grand design to existence divorced from personal passion is more than allowable. period.
Thank you for the excellent example of cognitive dissonance.
As for why you feel the way you do, thankfully, science has the answer.
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v5/n5/abs/nn0502-394.html | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 6:03:29 AM | | Evolution is not a threat to anyone. Evolution means the changing of one species into a new species...It never happens and therefore scientifically proven not to exist. There is no scientific proof of evolution. Niether in the fossil record nor in microbiological scientific record. Darwin predicted that it happened by natural selection and mutation. Modern science has proven that natural selection does not show evolution , and mutation never produces an evolving progress. No one chooses to have cancer ! Mutation always produces a negative and destructive result leading toward death.. An example is the destructive mutational gene producing Down's Syndrome. There are no fossil bones ever found in the world showing evolution. I dare anyone to show some....It is a hoax ! The theory is a fraud , and there is no science for it but a world of science against it....and science is truth...Also see... Institute for creation Research.... ICR.com | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 6:24:56 AM |
...Modern science has proven that natural selection does not show evolution ,..
Do you have a credible source for that claim?
...and mutation never produces an evolving progress. No one chooses to have cancer ! Mutation always produces a negative and destructive result leading toward death.
That is factually 100% incorrect.
Below are just a few examples of beneficial mutations are that all are backed up science:
Examples of Beneficial Mutations and Natural Selection
Adaptation to High and Low Temperatures by E. coli.
Adaptation to Growth in the Dark by Chlamydomonas.
Selection for Large Size in Chlamydomomas
Adaptation to a Low Phosphate Chemostat Environment by a Clonal Line of Yeast
Evidence of genetic divergence and beneficial mutations in bacteria after 10,000 generations
Read more at: http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html
There are no fossil bones ever found in the world showing evolution. I dare anyone to show some....It is a hoax ! The theory is a fraud , and there is no science for it but a world of science against it....and science is
Evidence of Gradual Change
Organisms have changed significantly over time.
In rocks more than 1 billion years old, only fossils of single-celled organisms are found.
Moving to rocks that are about 550 million years old, fossils of simple, multicellular animals can be found.
At 500 million years ago, ancient fish without jawbones surface; and at 400 million years ago, fish with jaws are found. Gradually, new animals appear: amphibians at 350 million years ago, reptiles at 300 million years ago, mammals at 230 million years ago, and birds at 150 million years ago.
As the rocks become more and more recent, the fossils look increasingly like the animals we observe today.
Read more at: http://biologos.org/questions/fossil-record
Though I am sure you will be able to counter with sources backing up your claims that show irrefutable proof, or I will have to assume that you really have a very poor understanding of science and have been influenced by people who hold the same level of understanding. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 8:58:04 AM |
anything within recorded history that has made the leap from chaos to order via random chance.
... But you cant find any reason to believe they're random.....unless your simply predisposed to want to believe that.
To believe they are not serving a definite purpose simply because you don't know that purpose is simplistic in extreme
No one said they're random. A common assumption that theists like you make is that either things happen under some direct intelligence or it's all random and chaotic. People like you never seem to consider the possibility of undirected self-organization under natural forces. As you probably should know, the forces of nature and physical matter have their own unique properties. Carbon is different from oxygen which is different from hydrogen (even though they're all just different combinations of protons and neutrons). Gravity is different from electro-magnetism - they don't all just act randomnly but have specific properties that make them behave in a certain way. If those properties are understood then it's more than possible to predict what would happen, which is most of what happens in the universe -- and all of this happens just by natural forces alone!
Conversely, if some intelligence was responsible for things happening then it would be impossible to predict how things work. You might predict something will happen due to some formula, but the designer could decide to do things completely differently. However, this is not what we observe. Instead we observe a uniformity in nature that allows us to predict things with great accuracy (it's the reason why computers work - and why programmers like me can depend on our code behaving a certain way). As Richard Carrier said, "if a god exists, then this god created the universe to look exactly like it would have to look if god did not exist". | |
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etcyl
| | Joined: 6/13/2012
Msg: 830 | |
| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 10:22:31 AM | Hoyo:
In general, as a college student of astrophysics and computer science, I find that people dislike to talk about science. Theists, usually, will claim some form of absolute proof over science, which is laughable. Science doesn't even claim absolute proof, and we have calculus.
Basically, if some one wants to BELIEVE -- accept something without ANY evidence -- they won't care about what science has to say. It's a bullshit argument but it doesn't change the fact that you can think whatever you like. I honestly don't care that people think there is some swell supreme being way the hell out there somewhere contemplating my breakfast. If I were that guy -- would I really care about one human? Nope. How about seven billion of them? Nope, nope, nope, nope, and NOPE. We get sick, we die, we fight, ... sure, we finally got calculus, but that doesn't mean we're the best in this universe. Our galaxy hasn't even rotated more than one per-cent around it axis since our species first evolved. We are just as fleeting as the ants you burn with your magnifying glass.
Science is what gives us our advantage, not religion. If you don't think your doctors help you get better, you're a bit looney. If you think farmers aren't to thank for food, and that it's "God's work" to be thankful for, you are certainly ambitious.
Evolution and scientific theory will always "threaten" religious believers because by definition science is something that uses logical and mathematical order to evaluate nature. Religion only needs faith. Faith does not require evidence at all.
It also really comes down to that whimsical bullshit, "how it makes a person feel". If they "feel" a god presence, they'll always be a believer. You can yell at them until you're blue in the face about how the brain is manipulated to create such a unique experience through neat, complex neurological and chemical reactions, but they'll just gobble down those DMT capsules and say you're wrong.
And it's safe to say that, if someone does not accept evolution, they have a pretty wacky explanation for everything.
They definitely have a lot on their plate to deny, notwithstanding: nucleosynthesis; neutron degeneracy; conservation of angular momentum; electromagnetism; gravity; etc.
Denying this ideas suggests to someone like me that you are above and beyond all of them. My only question for you would be: what's your alternative? If you really think you can describe Brownian Motion better than the physicists can, on behalf of all of our species -- please do.
On the converse, if you have no idea how to even spell a phenomena such as Brownian Motion -- give up. Your game is lost. Believe what you like, but you will never have anything on the mathematicians (unless you actually learn advanced analytical geometry). | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 12:11:43 PM | Very flawed thinking son.
My dentist who I respect very much is a Muslim ,should I start believing in the writings of Mohammed because the man is very good at his job ?(The man is doing a equal or better job as any atheist , Christian , Buddhist , Jew ...)
Farmers have been farming and feeding nations long before the advance of modern science and if I think God grant scientist the wisdom to improve farming ,how can you disprove that ?
As for the rest of your post,you sound like a guy who've learnt some new words .Just saying .
Ever read 'If ' by Rudyard Kipling ? | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 12:53:28 PM | he clearly is guy who learnt some new words. he also understands their meaning and can apply that meaning to other matters
that's what education is about.... you should try it some time. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 1:15:07 PM | Very flawed thinking son.
My dentist who I respect very much is a Muslim ,should I start believing in the writings of Mohammed because the man is very good at his job ?(The man is doing a equal or better job as any atheist , Christian , Buddhist , Jew ...)
Certainly there is flawed thinking - but on your side. Your dentist is good at his job due to his training, experience and natural abilities - in other words, his human abilities. I don't really see why you or anyone should adopt his faith, since that has nothing to do with his professional abilities. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 1:24:19 PM |
Farmers have been farming and feeding nations long before the advance of modern science and if I think God grant scientist the wisdom to improve farming ,how can you disprove that ?
Very easily to the rational thinker but i have no chance disproving it to you.
Why did god take so long and require us to do experiments and introduce crop rotation, pesticides etc in order to improve farming? If god is giving us all this knowledge why oh why are scientists having to do experiments to find it? Why was it not just given in a revelation? Why has god not chosen to reveal enough to end starvation ? When you have explained that you could then explain why this knowledge god has gives us , via science and experiments and actual effort , counters so much of the word of god as given by the bible?
My dentist who I respect very much is a Muslim ,should I start believing in the writings of Mohammed because the man is very good at his job ?
Non sequitor.
What exactly were the teachings of the prophet in relation to dentistry? Does what we know about dentistry come from science? If the former you would struggle to explain why we have got better at it...ridiculous argument
You say he has flawed thinking ...I can only assume that you think that everyone who does not believe as you do has flawed thinking.....which is rather amusing. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 1:43:05 PM | | Yep...observe the rationalized dishonesty. It'll keep going and going in this thread. That's what religion teaches people. How to lie and be mildly schizophrenic, and sometimes pathological...but believe or pretend that it seems sensible. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/7/2012 9:40:46 PM | ...an interesting thing about words:
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design.
Intelligent Design.
hhmm.
In the context of a discussion about the Theory of Biological Evolution, there is intelligent design, and there is an intelligent designer. And the Theory of Biological Evolution is "true". Evolution did, and does, happen. And without anything supernatural or divine.
'Intelligence' is a word we use to refer to the behavior, of components of a network or system as a whole, which respond(s), reacts to, and interacts with reality and environment in a certain way.
Your brain. Your immune system. A colony of ants. A flock of birds. An ecosystem. The elements of a single cell. The elements of a mitochondria.
The sciences of Emergence, Emergent Behavior, and Emergent Technology explain this. Intelligence is a phenomena which emerges, manifests, as a sum result of the actions of the smaller units. It's an understanding which comes from both science's holism and science's reductionism. This phenomena which emerges in this way is extremely powerful, and it takes place soley by the simple aforementioned process.
'Design'. A bunch of big rocks fly past a planet on slightly different trajectories. Some of those rocks are too close to the planet, or moving too slow, and they eventually fall to it's surface. Other of those rocks are too far away, or moving too fast, and they keep flying past the planet and continue onward. One, or some, of the rocks happen to be at the right distance and speed, and end up orbiting the planet. A planet and moons has therefore been 'designed'. A planet and moon system has come about through A process of evolution. The other rocks, as moon candidates, went extinct, and the moon(s) is/are the fittest, which survived.
The fine-tuning of the universe and it's forces and laws? Yes, it was fine-tuned. And this was how it was fine-tuned. Without a god. This same 'evolutionary' dynamic applied to the fundamental forces coming into being. Within a developing ecosystem of each other. Did it have to all end up the way it is now? No. It could have ended up tweaked differently in various ways. That means we wouldn't be here, sure, but it doesn't mean that something else, another kind of universe, and life, wouldn't have evolved differently to exist in that different set of dial-positions. Which of course includes a different set of fundamental forces.
The dynamics, mechanics, laws, etc, of Biological Evolution are very powerful. These mechanics being deceptively so powerful is a big part of the problem for people understanding or accepting the theory without supernatural help. The dynamics and mechanics of Evolution are the designer.
As a demonstration of the power and capability, these evolutionary mechanics have been translated into it's own form of computer programming software code. The result was programs which learn how to write/modify themselves and write other programs without being taught how to do so, and computers which solve problems or perform tasks without being told how to do so, and doing so better than human software engineers, and software code that humans have great trouble even being able to read.
The very few, extremely simple, humble evolutionary laws do expert design, all by themselves. And the potential power of intelligence emerging from simple components of a larger system or network, with no help otherwise, is likewise very high.
And, you cannot claim any contradicting argument by rhetorically asking where any of the simple laws or behaviors come from...because they themselves come about the same way.
...yes, life evolved naturally. And was intelligently designed. Yes, our universe was fine-tuned. By itself.
etc.
etc etc etc.
duh. der. doh. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/8/2012 9:42:38 AM | | survival isn't even a purpose for most species - it is simply an effect of selection. bacteria do not exist in order to survive to replicate, but by necessity those that do not replicate do not contribute to the next generation. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/8/2012 10:56:29 AM | Survival to the point of reproduction is the only point. If you dont do this, as you note your genes are lost from the pool
It is termed natural selection
i.e. those who have genes beneficial to survival survive and reproduce thereby passing them on. those who dont die and dont pass them on.
if none of the bacteria survive to reproduce then the bacteria is extinct.....hardly the goal of any species one would assume. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/8/2012 11:02:12 AM | | And thus, again, the purpose or goal is to continue, live, survive. On the larger scale. Not individual organisms, or even particular species. But when speaking of evolution, and someone asks what is the purpose, from the standpoint of the inaccurate notion that it's all random and accident...then life as a whole, and evolution as a whole, demonstrates the "intention" to continue. I see the whole of the tree of life as one entity engaged in a dance or negotiation with the rest of the world, and itself. I see families of species, defined by their particular physiology and niche, as being like the position of an arm or leg of someone on the dance floor, or the dodge-ball court, constantly improvising against the forces which would kill it. | |
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etcyl
| | Joined: 6/13/2012
Msg: 841 | |
| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/8/2012 11:43:51 AM | What is flawed about my thinking? You definitely made that statement. I did not see any proof for it, though!
What does your point about your dentist have to do with any of my post exactly? I did not catch that, either. Anyone can be good at any job, regardless of their faith, I think. If you misinterpreted me to think a worker is better as a result of a particular faith, and ergo you should also subscribe to that faith, you are wrong.
I really see no connection to what your saying with anything I wrote about, though! :)
Farmers certainly have been farming long before modern science. It is because of them we get food. It is because nature is regular that we can harvest. If these were not true, we would be shit out of luck. Alas, we do not need any supreme being and therefore, I can disprove that your wisdom granted by a god will improve anything. I require only agricultural methods to feed people. You require a fictitious, un-proven entity whom you merely decide to believe in. That's fine. I need evidence. My evidence is this universe, and this planet. I can prove to you using the regularities of the seasons that this earth will chance over time, and as it does, I can plant, harvest, and eat because I understand that regularity.
I sound like a guy who've learnt some new words. Learnt is certainly one of them! I did not know it was a word. Of course, I am a college student. Have you been to college? What did you study? What did you learn? How can you use that to your advantage to help your species on this planet? Those are my thoughts. That's what I care about. I use my education to help, not to act arrogant.
Honestly, you sound a bit ignorant. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/8/2012 5:56:49 PM | | We may have to admit that sometimes those of dwight's type bring a little comic relief to a thread. Sometimes they're pretty bad and counterproductive, but other times they keep it fun. It's just too hard to not laugh after some point at their outrageousness. And they do unwittingly play a sort of advocate for those who might stop by and end up learning something, by seeing how we can so effectively address their kind. I don't know if I should be ashamed to feel this way though. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/8/2012 6:14:27 PM |
I don't know if I should be ashamed to feel this way though.
If you walked into his church and started teaching science, I would say you should feel ashamed. Since he burst onto the science and philosophy forums preaching about god, you should feel ashamed for being so nice
those who might stop by and end up learning something
Hoping a sheep will think for themselves is like hoping a wolf to be a vegetarian. the people that learn something on here are the ones that come in with an open mind.
I saw a bumper sticker the other day "I saw and I believe; The Creationist Museum". I want to take my kids there and point out all the BS. | |
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etcyl
| | Joined: 6/13/2012
Msg: 845 | |
| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/8/2012 11:42:35 PM | I don't want to sound too bold, but it does seem like the rational, scientific and atheistic-minded here have won out this discussion.
I didn't read all the comments, but I didn't see any of those of us talk about or advocate Stupid Design, yet. We're that cool 8) | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/9/2012 12:08:33 AM |
Mutation always produces a negative and destructive result leading toward death.. lol, we're all born with dozens of mutations and we accumulate more through our lifetime. Mutations can sometimes make our muscles stronger, provide high cholesterol tolerance, reduce fat, and make people immune (or nearly immune) to AIDS. I had a biology teacher with a photographic memory - guess what caused it - I'll give you a hint, it starts with 'm' and ends with 'utation.' So far it hasn't killed him, lol.
An example is the destructive mutational gene producing Down's Syndrome A destructive gene causes Down's? Really? And here I thought it was caused by the presence of an extra chromosome. I guess that serves me right for believing what, well, basically every other person on the planet had to say on the subject.
There are no fossil bones ever found in the world showing evolution Oh totally. In fact, fossils probably don't even exist. And if they do, Satan stuck them there to trick us right? | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/9/2012 2:04:49 AM |
Message: Survival to the point of reproduction is the only point. If you dont do this, as you note your genes are lost from the pool
It is termed natural selection
i.e. those who have genes beneficial to survival survive and reproduce thereby passing them on. those who dont die and dont pass them on.
if none of the bacteria survive to reproduce then the bacteria is extinct.....hardly the goal of any species one would assume.
No I disagree. A bacteria's purpose is not survival. A bacteria has no purpose at all. It does not think 'eat, reproduce, eat some more' ... It just does what it does. As all life is finite, any life that doesn't reproduce plainly leaves no offspring but that isn't failure or success, it just is what it is. Equally, forms that have reproduced have... Er... Just reproduced... And there is a bit of them kicking around when they die. But this isn't a purpose. It is simply a manifestation of the. Ontinuan e of species or individuals who have reproduced......
My point is just that there isn't any purpose. at our conscious level we understand purpose but at every other level, purpose is nonsense, it's just a necessary consequence of whichever selection factors happen to propogate a new generation.
No purpose in sight | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/9/2012 7:09:00 AM | Humans are a conglomeration of upwards of 10,000 species living in a host body. Many of those species support the host body, some can become deadly when the body is weakened or succmbing to disease. Most of them seem to serve a purpose in keeping their host healthy, and thus them.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2159087/Healthy-people-share-bodies-10-000-species-germs.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ultimate-social-network-bacteria-protects-health
Microbes in our bods outnumber our human cells 10-1. This is the image in which the gods made us? | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/9/2012 7:22:25 AM | michael jackson would have had a fit
but again, there is no purpose - just a benefit to us and them ... it isn't the purpose of our symbiotic friends | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 7/9/2012 2:57:10 PM | 850:
:)
853:
And now I think we're missing the contextually derived use of the word "purpose"...and so missing the "point". Sometimes "purpose" means a pre-conceived intention, by another entity in the case of life as alledged by some...so this is why I used the word 'intention'. A bacteria doesn't "just do". When it eats, reproduces, etc, it intends to do so. To differ on this point, we'd be debating about what intelligence is, and what free will versus determinism is. | |
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