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| | Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent DesignPage 53 of 54 (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54) | Demi:
If I'm not mistaken, atomism is the idea that all matter can be broken down into indivisible parts called atoms, and that it is the structure and arrangements of these atoms that give different forms of matter their properties. To quote Wikipedia:
This wiki is horrible and very incorrect. Atomism began with Democritus (at least from what we know of what few surviving texts we have) who supposed that one could take a piece of bread and break it in half and the do this again and again until eventually one would arive at a piece that could not be broken in two. This piece he calls an atom. Now atoms can be broken into constituent parts. But when one does so they either become other atoms or they cease to be truly be phisical material any longer (like if one were to try to split a hydrogen atom). And then we end up in the very strange world of quantum mechanics.
As far as I know, the universe started from a singularity some 14.6 billion years ago. I've read several ideas on where it might have come from but nothing conclusive (which is understandable since it's a skeptical area for science). I have no idea what rules or laws applied before the universe was created, since the only such rules I am familiar with are those within the universe. As for a first cause to the universe, I find it nonsensical since one cannot talk about cause and effect without time, which science tells us only started after the creation of the universe. I think it might help to consider time from a four-dimensional perspective, like the way two-dimensional beings would look at a three-dimensional object - to them, a three-dimensional object doesn't have a single form but has various forms depending on the depth. Similarly, a four-dimensional being might see time as just another dimension, with the various stages of the universe representing the "time depth" (in this sense, the universe might have always existed, in one form or another).
Turning to speculation, the universe could have popped into existence due to quantum forces and an instability in matter and anti-matter. A singularity might be small enough to be subject to quantum forces and we know today that matter can temporarily pop into existence on a quantum level. The multiverse theory is also interesting, and increasingly likely. Our universe may be just one of an uncountable number of parallel universes. This might also tie in with Professor Smolin's concept of universe evolution, where new universes are created from black holes. Like a singularity, a black hole is also a point of infinite density so they may be nature's way of generating new universes. The list goes on but I think I'll stop it there for now.
I guess that's about it. I'm sorry I can't give you anything more concrete but it's a speculative area, and my view are heavily influenced by science.
Now you see how little we really know? Let's not jump to any conclusions scientifically. Let's jump to conclusions in a realm of study where it is safe to do so. Howabout philosophy? | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/5/2012 4:04:58 PM | This wiki is horrible and very incorrect. Atomism began with Democritus (at least from what we know of what few surviving texts we have) who supposed that one could take a piece of bread and break it in half and the do this again and again until eventually one would arive at a piece that could not be broken in two. This piece he calls an atom. Now atoms can be broken into constituent parts. But when one does so they either become other atoms or they cease to be truly be phisical material any longer (like if one were to try to split a hydrogen atom). And then we end up in the very strange world of quantum mechanics. I'm not aware of that (you can feel free to edit it if you think it's inaccurate), but that doesn't really seem compatible with the standard model. Splitting a hydrogen atom into constituent parts should be possible (for example, the electron and proton can be separated, such as in plasma, and those parts can be split further still), and nowhere in physical theory does it indicate that splitting matter can make it non-physical (you can eliminate matter and turn it into energy though, such as when matter and anti-matter collide, but of course energy is not non-material either).
Now you see how little we really know? Let's not jump to any conclusions scientifically. Let's jump to conclusions in a realm of study where it is safe to do so. Howabout philosophy? I never stated that science knows everything, neither am I jumping to any conclusions. In general, I believe that we should NEVER assume conclusions. If we don't know something we should just say that we don't know (there's no shame in not knowing). Like I said when I first quoted Weinberg, we will never know the entire truth - but that's okay. No scientific theory is 100% accurate but it's the closest thing we will ever get to the truth, and that's good enough. ;) | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/5/2012 4:38:32 PM | Demi:
I'm not aware of that (you can feel free to edit it if you think it's inaccurate), but that doesn't really seem compatible with the standard model. Splitting a hydrogen atom into constituent parts should be possible (for example, the electron and proton can be separated, such as in plasma, and those parts can be split further still), and nowhere in physical theory does it indicate that splitting matter can make it non-physical (you can eliminate matter and turn it into energy though, such as when matter and anti-matter collide, but of course energy is not non-material either).
Now we are getting into some pretty heavy stuff Demi. If we keep liable every thing we find as "phisical" then we are never going to find anything but the physical, which was the point I was making by relating mathematics to the atomic number of an atom. It is quite clear that our current system of mathematics/logic fits with quantum mechanics about as well as a square peg fits into a round hole (and that is a pun by the way)
I do not feel comfortable cntinuing this descussion any furth as we are beginning to tread upon the territory of my own cosmological hipotheses, Which contain the sum of my life's work in mathematics and physics.
So, I am probably going to drop out of this conversation at this point. I am not interested in giving my ideas away for free.
Like I said when I first quoted Weinberg, we will never know the entire truth - but that's okay.
This is a contradiction in terms Demi. How can you know that we will never know everything? | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/5/2012 5:01:08 PM | It is quite clear that our current system of mathematic fits with quantum mechanics about as well as a square peg fits into a round hole.
That is not clear at all. It is just really really difficult math. The math is just a description of the model. It exists or it doesn't. There are states that lack clarity in that definition but that is only to location, behavior, properties and predictability. What is so square peg, round hole? | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/5/2012 9:45:06 PM | | quantum mechanics is supper cool! there's no square peg round hole, the particle being the peg will totally disappear, and go through the dang block, no hole needed. ;p | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/6/2012 1:25:45 AM | | btw...Just like with the concept of time, we make ourselves misunderstand what "physical" means in the first place, and have to be careful here. Like when a religious apologist talks about a scientist or atheist being a "materialist"...he doesn't quite know what he's talking about. The view of someone who doesn't subscribe to the supernatural is not quite just about everything being of a "material" world the way that is implied. And herein we have another example of what I complain about concerning linquistics. If we don't handle our language use properly, we'll just keep arguing all century long again...year 2100, we'll still be stupid, collectively. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/6/2012 6:48:23 AM |
This is a contradiction in terms Demi. How can you know that we will never know everything? How is it a contradiction? I am saying that the only thing we can know for sure is that we won't know everything (of course to be strictly philsophical, I should say the only thing we can know for sure is that we exist when we are thinking). | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/6/2012 7:38:36 AM |
I am not interested in giving my ideas away for free. It's a good thing the great philosophers & scientists throughout history were more generous to their fellow man and gave their ideas away freely.
The reason life exists is because the scientist conducting the experiment wanted to see what would happen if he placed his own 'genetic' material where the particles collided adding the necessary components for life. So, all of life is because of socially maladjusted and rather lonely nerd scientist. Why didn't I think of that?…Oh well…Back to the drawing board…
what if the universe as we know it is just the molecular structure of something bigger, and the end of time is when the mucus dripping out of some giants nostril hits the ground, and our gravity is changed. Yet another plausible theory!…You guys are batting 1000 (creatively speaking)…I hope I can get all this down in my notes.
the universe could have popped into existence due to quantum forces and an instability in matter and anti-matter. A singularity might be small enough to be subject to quantum forces and we know today that matter can temporarily pop into existence on a quantum level. The multiverse theory is also interesting, and increasingly likely. Our universe may be just one of an uncountable number of parallel universes. This might also tie in with Professor Smolin's concept of universe evolution, where new universes are created from black holes. Like a singularity, a black hole is also a point of infinite density so they may be nature's way of generating new universes. The list goes on but I think I'll stop it there for now. I would too if I were you…Those speculations, while very plausible are quite mundane & old hat (not too many laughs to be had from them). They properly belong on DTSWMF's "Speculating on the Edge of Cosmology/Quantum Theory" thread.
quantum mechanics is supper cool! I'm inclined to agree (to spite my limited knowledge of quantum theory)
The view of someone who doesn't subscribe to the supernatural is not quite just about everything being of a "material" world the way that is implied. Give up…Too many people hold to the belief that "natural" means something we already have a scientific explanation for, while "supernatural" or "unnatural" means "something outside of nature", instead of something natural that we don't yet (and may never have) a natural (scientific) explanation for.
herein we have another example of what I complain about concerning linquistics. If we don't handle our language use properly, we'll just keep arguing all century long again...year 2100, we'll still be stupid, collectively. Look on the bright side…We'll be able to post & argue until we die of a very old age and accomplish nothing in the way of education in the process. What could be more rewarding than that?
the only thing we can know for sure is that we exist when we are thinking The epistemological dilemma has yet to be solved, so don't make Descartes' mistake of presupposing your own existence…You have to determine what exactly is meant by "existence" and "we" (or "I") in the first place….Just sayin' | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/6/2012 11:20:23 AM |
It's a good thing the great philosophers & scientists throughout history were more generous to their fellow man and gave their ideas away freely.
I don't want money Dukky. I just don't want to be poor anymore and to have access to more science and for people to listen when I have an idea. I can't accomplish that by having my ideas stolen. My ideas are quite literaly all I have. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/6/2012 12:50:46 PM |
Yet another plausible theory!…You guys are batting 1000 (creatively speaking)…I hope I can get all this down in my notes. i'd like to think sarcasm and humor wasn't totally wasted in the comment your referring to :P it was pretty obvious my attempt was humor ;) | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/6/2012 6:25:47 PM | 1320 (1318):
I suspect that you didn't read my sentence right.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/7/2012 5:00:01 AM |
Actually, you are. Your whole point about Christianity moving the world was based on false premise. Christianity took over and the (western) world moved backwards. Once Christianity was pushed aside, we finally moved forward again. Now I can concede that the world did move farther forward than it was 2000 years ago, but that's not evidence that the dark ages were good or necessary. We may very well be 1000 years ahead right now had Christianity never gotten involved. It's your premise that it was a good thing, so if you really believe that then by all means, be the man you claim to be and practice what you preach. Note here that I'd rather see you realize how much of a negative impact Christianity has had on the Western world rather than drinking up... but there's nothing worse then someone who'll suggest overs should toil through something he himself will not. so if my opinion was hypocritical, then so is yours. this is a true statement, because it fits your obvious definition of hypocrite, even though your definition is an incorrect one. ;) you are very welcome to your view of it, however you don't change my view what so ever with this statement/ view. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/7/2012 4:13:28 PM |
even though your definition is an incorrect one. ;)
I think you need a dictionary for Christmas;
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
I'm neither virtuous nor religious, nor do I act in contradiction of my stated beliefs. However, you have offered up the idea of the dark ages being a positive but when I offered you to partake in a regular act from the dark ages, you've refused. That's hypocritical, definition #2. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/7/2012 4:33:58 PM |
I'm neither virtuous nor religious, nor do I act in contradiction of my stated beliefs. However, you have offered up the idea of the dark ages being a positive but when I offered you to partake in a regular act from the dark ages, you've refused. That's hypocritical, definition #2. there were still more advances in technology that came out of the dark ages, and that was my fact. my statements weren't hypocritical they were factual, and my view that Christianity was positive was my take.
here's a few inventions for your viewing pleasure ;P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology
moose ears, wiggly fingers ... lol | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/7/2012 4:39:54 PM |
there were still more advances in technology that came out of the dark ages, and that was my fact. my statements weren't hypocritical they were factual, and my view that Christianity was positive was my take. So they why did they call them the dark ages?
I heard it had something to do with the concept of a period of intellectual darkness and economic regression that supposedly occurred in Europe following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, but maybe I am wrong and you can enlighten me. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/7/2012 4:49:08 PM |
So they why did they call them the dark ages?
I heard it had something to do with the concept of a period of intellectual darkness and economic regression that supposedly occurred in Europe following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, but maybe I am wrong and you can enlighten me. Google is a hell of a drug ;P | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/7/2012 5:03:41 PM |
I will take it over the smack they are pushing with the bible any day. first, says who i believe the bible? and second, your not even coming close to making an intelligent enough statement for me to argue with, so this will be my last response to anything you post, unless it requires me to use my noodle ;)
thank you cum again! | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/7/2012 5:11:07 PM |
first, says who i believe the bible?.. No idea, as it was not me who insinuated you did, but if you feel you need to defend yourself from something you have not been accused of, please help yourself.
and second, your not even coming close to making an intelligent enough statement for me to argue with,.. Really?
Your attempts to make your case: there were still more advances in technology that came out of the dark ages, and that was my fact. my statements weren't hypocritical they were factual, and my view that Christianity was positive was my take. moose ears, wiggly fingers ... lol & Google is a hell of a drug ;P
and you are claiming that my post are not making and intelligent enough statement?
...so this will be my last response to anything you post, unless it requires me to use my noodle ;) That's probably a good idea as it was clear you could not make a single point. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/7/2012 6:15:44 PM |
moose ears, wiggly fingers ... lol
Did you even read that link? The first item they credit is gunpowder which was invented in China Then they credit windmills... 1st century AD in Greece Then spectacles - you have 1! Mechanical clocks - wooo! Some ancient Greek water clocks had gears in em, but let's not count those Water wheels - 3rd century BC Building techniques, citing gothic style castles - no doubt impressive, but also breeding grounds for disease And don't forget the orgies!
Losses include basic astronomy, democracy, personal hygene, running water, roads, sewers as well as a reduced rate of literacy and education. Sure, they had a few advances, but they should have had a lot more. Instead of celebrating Gallileo's evidence that the Earth revolves around the sun, they called him a heretic and place him under life-long house arrest... now that's progress! | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/7/2012 7:05:19 PM | You know, this whole side-discussion (if you can call it a discussion) reminds me of something Professor Bart Ehrman said. He described a survey among academics to see who they thought was the person with the greastest influence on western culture. The result is a surprising one: Alexander the Great. This is because Alexander was responsible for spreading Greek culture all over the world, which they see as the cornerstone of western culture.
I agree with this assessment as well. Basically, I see our modern society as a continuation of the Greek tradition, and I would like to think that if it wasn't for the Dark Ages we would be a far better place today. It's also strange to think that without Muslim scholars those Greek traditions might have been lost altogether (one of the great sins of Christianity). With the rebirth of democracy, science and critical/skeptical thinking we've exploded in technology, going from biplanes to supersonic stealth jet fighters in just a hundred years (not to mention landing on the moon and investigating the deepest reaches of the solar system). Similar advances have been made in computers, medicine, physics, biology (in fact, virtually every field of knowledge).
This is not to discount the various scientific discoveries made by religious people, but it's important to note that their scientific discoveries weren't principally inspired by religion. Gregor Mendel did not come up with his theory on genetic inheritance by reading the bible or prayer, he did it by experimentation. The same goes for Isaac Newton, who worked out the natural laws of gravitation and motion scientifically, with no help from the bible. In fact, I have never heard of a scientist, then or now, claiming that they developed their theory principally through the bible or their religious beliefs, NONE. | |
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| Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design Posted: 8/12/2012 12:08:25 AM | ARROGANCE 12:13--If you think as though non belief in a violent threatning sexist pansy is wrong or immoral or evil, its obvious that thinking is NOT your strong suit :)
DRAMA 4:17--Its just 'gods' way of testing us. Its just gods way of fooling us. Its just gods way of.......trickster? drama queen? Responsible also for the elegance of evolution...really?? :) VIEWS 3:5--Religious view: If there is no God then where do we get our morals? Translation: I would give into sexual desires with children and kill everybody if it wasnt against guidelines from the word of god, I'm a lunatic, I cant do it on my own, I need god to discipline me becasue Im naughty, I wont and/or cant hold myself accountable, and Im dismissive of reason regardless of life experience, education and evidence, becasue "god did it", "its gods will", "god works in mysterious ways","he has always been here, it says it in the bible" , "who are you to question gods will".....Such a witty bunch:)
VIEWS 4:6--Religious view: If there is no god, then life has no purpose. What is the purpose of life if there is no god? Science response: What is the color of anxiety in the morning since its a statistical improbability there is a god? Just because we can ask a question, doesnt mean that question is valid or deserves consideration. Purpose comes from intuition, instinct and intellect. Would stop donating to food drives or the clothing drives, just because you evolved and outgrew an outdated belief? :)
WAKEUP 5:8--Our beliefs inspire and create our world. The devisiveness and hypocracy of religious beliefs only make sense in a small ignorant world. If you were wondering what size our world is now, its a lot bigger, more beautiful, magical, and inspirational than the respect that it is currently given with religious views running the show. Lets allow the big kids to take over from here and those who desire, go read your holy binky and go night night :)
DRAMA 6:24--Hey lazy, why not just make 2 of each creature again after your temper tantrum, instead of the whole ark drama? All knowing seems more all sissy :) | |
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