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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/25/2005 2:53:09 PM | Why is there an H in front of my name? And if you know the book so well then you shouldn't need me to do it. But as I said.........I will get back to you on that. If you know it so well, then you shoud be abe to do your copy pasteing, because if I KNEW you KNOW what I am talking about, then I would ask you to do it.
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/25/2005 3:03:37 PM |
Anyway, back to reincarnation and off of your little diversion..
 Ya crack me up socal...you are the one that with the diversions
It doesnt, but thanks again for pointing out how incomplete the bible can be.
And
But, that is, after all, what blind faith is about, isnt it?
from the -one-
that creation of new souls are a part if the 9 waves, from Hindu, and Druid Philosophies.
If you wanna believe that from the Hindoos and the few fairy stories about the Druids fine..just don't claim me believing what the bibles says is any less blind faith.. | |
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-One-
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Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 78 | |
| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/25/2005 3:21:50 PM | "What the Bible says is any less blind faith"
You said it, I didn't. Now it's time to rest my tired old bones before they catch a chill. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 2:21:37 PM | I see reincarnation in the bible as well. But as most of these people who say that we only see what we want to in it, do the same thing. They don't want to see it because everything they have ever believed in will come crashing down on them. I KNOW there is reincarnation, because I remember. I also remember being incarnated on other planets. But they would rather call me nuts and quote out of their book as to go inside and remember for themselves. Children remember but who listens to them? They just have a vivid imagination.LOL. But then again the same people will say they are closest to God, but still not listen to anything they say.LOL Too busy making them think like they do. Because such things don't exsist.
So if you see it, cite it. If you can't, you don't see it.
I have noticed that CONSISTENTLY you of the pagan world make comments like this about what is "in the bible" but CONSISTENTLY can't cite it chapter and verse, or even get close. In other words, you're attempting to deceive others based on your own beliefs rather than anything you actually know.
Demonic possession would also give you the same illusions that you're describing and since everything that doesn't come from God comes from satan, I'd say that your answer IS in the Bible but it isn't where & what you think it is. You will find the answer in 1 John 4, 3 & 4 (below)
Having said that, there is no distinct statement that man is not "recyclable". It is appointed for "a man" to die once the face judgement. That is irrefutable, but the spirit/soul/ghost is immortal.
Christ said "in My father's house, there are many mansions". Perhaps the explanation lies there.
Suppose John Jefferson Smith, a L.A. "Crips" gang member dies. His mom used to take him to church as a kid and had him baptised but he decided to turn his back on the church and be a street hood instead. He gets popped in a drive-by and dies then goes to heaven to face judgement and God says, "JJ,as a Christian you did a really crappy job on earth. You were once my son but made decisions that make me question your viability as a member of heaven. You're going to do it again and this time you won't be a black street criminal but will come back as Korean shop keeper in Watts so you'll know what it was like to have to put up with "you".
John Jefferson Smith has died, been judged and recast not as John Smith but rather as Lee Park. The bible is 100% correct in what is written. This could be the "place" prepared for him" by Christ/God for this inDUHvidual. Of coruse when Lee Park Gets capped by the next Generation of JJ-Smith-the-Crip, he's got the roles figgered out by then.
The Bible doesn't offer this scenario but on the other hand, I can't find, nor can my family members who are pastors and Bible teachers, anything that absolutely proves this incorrect. If someone else can I please share it with me and I will change my thinking accordingly.
The reason I don't include Countbli's and isis' ideas in here as believable is that in order to a have gifts from God, i.e. as chance to get one's life right with God, one must be a Christian. They are not, so their gifts/imaginary events/"memories" are from the other master.
(1 John 3:24) The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
(1 John 4)
"1.Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3. and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
4. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them..
So those of us who believe know that our spirits come from God, and we're not deceived. Those who don't are playgrounds susceptible to all sorts of false visions, "memories" and spirits fill them full of all kinds of false imagry, like having lived on other planets (and might still from what I read here). If a Christian told me that S/he has lived before I'd believe him or her as although the Bible doesn't say "It happens" it also doesn't say "it doesn't happen" and there is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence, albeit mostly among pagan people. Maybe some of these are the "Lee Park" in the above hyopthetical scenario. Most would not be however. If a pagan tells thy're reincarnated, I just look and smile, because I know who is REALLY doing the talking.  | |
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-One-
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Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 80 | |
| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 2:25:11 PM | | It's all in how you inturprit it,if you do not want to see reincarnation, you will not, if you do you will. Simple, but accurate. | |
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-One-
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Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 82 | |
| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 2:28:14 PM | | By the standard of this thread, by the standard of the reader, take your pick. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 2:57:30 PM |
He then further proclaimed "this commandment i give you above all others, to love your enemies as youself"
He also said that if one violates one of His Father's commandments he has violated all and that not a single word would be changed. Do you realize HOW MANY TIMES you pagans have misquoted/cited out of context that same Bible verse to us? After a while it becomes glaringly obvious that you're absolutely CLUELESS about who Christ was or what he actually taught. If you're going to cite Biblical references it is incumbent that you learn their context because those of us who actually DO know will feed you your head every time. From Leviticus to Revelations we're told that not one stroke (one letter) of God's laws, nor his book/word, will be changed. Christ also said that he came not to change the law but to fulfill it. You people conviently overlook the second part in order to try and dismiss everything that came before Christ and make Him a big "peace-love-dope" hippy type. He was NOT that at all. I will refer you to a certain event at the temple:
"And He (Christ) made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;
Yep. sounds like he was really "loving his enemies" then, huh?
Or how about THIS one?
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
This is to say that even people who were doing HIS work in God's name (as you can't cast out demons any other way) aren't necessarily going to heaven. Only those who followed "the will of My Father" will make the cut. "TheWill of My father" is all laid out in the Bible.
So much for the "all paths get you to the same place"; that all you have to do is "love God and love other people as yourself", thinking and that Christ was a big sissy. Its a bit more complicated than that.
What happens when non-beleivers get hold of the Bible and pick at it to misquote and abuse it to support their non-beliefs was also addressed in Matthew 7.
Matthew 7:6[ "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
What a shame, starlilly. Such an angelic face and such an earthly spirit.
There is no such thing as "new age".
It is the same old pagan stuff in a new wrapper.
Do a side-by-side comparison sometime and you will see how thoroughly you've been duped. | |
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-One-
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Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 84 | |
| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 3:00:31 PM | I've seen Christians twist scripture, stretch it, and all around re-word it to mean what ever they would like it to mean, is it acceptable since these people call themselves Christian? I would ask what the diffrence is, in scripture being used falsly by the Christian or the Pagan? Hmph, seems as broad as it is long, the argument is circular.
It is easy to lable all who disagree with your particular inturpritation of the Bible "demon posessed" This does not make it so. To make an attempt to understand for themselves what they read is healthy. You only have a problem with the fact they dont agree with your inturpitation. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 4:23:14 PM | have to agree with the one there.
Before you start labeling critical thought as demonic, how about you get all of the christians to agree first?
And, jsut for the sake of argument, lets say, that those who are broadining their spiritual awareness, learning, picking up on past lives, whatever, are really being decieved by an active Lucifer... at least Lucifer is active. If your theory is sound, it makes the good guy god look like a lazy, uncaring, unmotivated entitity, where Lucifer is putting in the effort. Not making a judgement, but really, with all the spritiual awareness, Lucifer is really putting in a lot of work for us. Dunno about you, but I dont the christian god doing much of late, but expecing us to by a lot of old, unfullfilled promises that you cant cash in on untill you die. Hrrrm. Who is supposed to be the con artist again? | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 4:53:54 PM | Of course it isn't acceptable for Christians to twist the biblical treachings to suit their own human foibles. "dishonest" is dishonest no matter who is doing it. The same prohibition against changing his word applies to us as applies to anybody else, perhaps even more so. That is my primary beef with the catholic church.
Christ and the apostls (sounds like a rock group, huh?) warned us that many false prophets would be doing just that. They also warned of apostasy in the church and time went on and it was even going on in the time that the epistles were written.
It is easy to lable all who disagree with your particular inturpritation of the Bible "demon posessed" This does not make it so. To make an attempt to understand for themselves what they read is healthy. You only have a problem with the fact they dont agree with your inturpitation.
Again I am blinded by the dazzling disingenuiousness here. Who labelled anybody "demon possessed"? I simply said that demonic possession would give the same appearances as a gift if the spirit from God; or that of apparent reincarnation as a demon would have access to the information on the deceased person's life (if they actually existed) as, as little minions of Satan they have access to his knowledge. As was just shown in 1 John, if you're not a Believer in the Christian God your gifts won't be coming from him. You don't have to be a beliver is Satan to get gift from him, however as to him the urepentant mind/spirit is just a "tool" and tools don't need a belief in the craftsman to perform their job. All they have to do is to be available as tools. Mental illness is another possibility. So is just self-delusion. You WANT to beleive that you lived on another planets so in your mind, you did. That doesn't make it so any more than standing in a garage saying "I'm a Porsche 911R" makes you an automobile.
I agree that trying to "make an attempt to understand" what you read is healthy. A perfect example would be what I just wrote about reincarnation. Nobody in my family agreed with me but again, nobody could prove my idea wrong from a Biblical standpoint. I questioned "the conventional wisdom" (what they had been taught in seminary, etc.) and the funny thing is, that the "conventional wisdom" was not entirely supported by any sources they could provide. That is also why I tossed it out here, to see if anybody else could offer up something they had missed, or I had missed.
One, being wiccan (pagan), or "new age" (pagan) or Druid (pagan) or any of 990 other varieties of pagan is not just another interpretation of the Bible which Differs from mine. It is a whole different religion based on something OTHER THAN the Bible.
Same with Catholicism.
We had one of our posters write in here that the romist chuch was the original Christian church and that Peter was their first pope. The catholic church was formed in about 313 AD long after Peter had died (Crucified at the order of Emperor Nero before his death, between 60-68 AD, most likely in 67 AD) and there is no provision in the Bible for ANYBODY to call himself "The Vicar of Christ" as Christ needs no "vicar". Further, the historical record shows that the Christian church existed from the time of Christ (0-33AD+/-)well before 313 AD and that the first pope was actually Constantine, yet the romist church is still saying otherwise. THATwould be a "different interpretation".
here's some good info on the "first pope"
http://www.reformation.org/meet_the_first_pope.html
For example the papist church interpret the following:
(Matthew 16:15-17)
He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16.Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17.And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18."I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
...as Christ stating that he was building his church upon PETER with PETER as the rock upon which the church would be built, hence their claim that he was the first pope, but the catholic church didn't come into existence until the time of Constantine.
In fact Christ was saying "the rock" upon which his church would be built was the fact which Peter had just stated to Him, that he was "The Christ, the Son of the Living God", hence the "Christian church".
The romist church is in fact "the whore of Babylon" foretold in the Bible and that is how it has committed all the non-Christian acts it has down through the ages yet remained in power. The church itself is probably ALSO "the antichrist" per what I have read recently, as the Book of Revelations is opening as was foretold and as it opens, questions previously unanswered are being answered. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 5:20:23 PM | @One
I have no past life memories and don't believe in reincarnation. But I did cite chapter and verse. The most compelling argument for reincarnation in the Bible is when Jesus says that John the Baptist was Elijah, as promised in Malachi. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 5:48:59 PM | lets say, that those who are broadining their spiritual awareness, learning, picking up on past lives, whatever, are really being decieved by an active Lucifer... at least Lucifer is active.
What "those" are doing is not "broadening their spiritual awareness". What "those" are doing is losing their spiritual compass and rudder by being tossed many false landmarks by people, serving as sirens, to run them onto the reefs of spiritualism, aka heresy and satanism in a different wrapper.
But not to dispair. Lucifer is alive and well and so is the Christian God.
People are being sifted just as foretold.
If your theory is sound, it makes the good guy god look like a lazy, uncaring, unmotivated entitity, where Lucifer is putting in the effort.
Like Avis, because he's #2 he tries harder. That plus with the like of the ACLU/liberalism working for him he's getting a lot of new fertile ground in which to sow his seeds. It was all foretold in the Bible also. Would you like some cites (I keep harping on that point for a reason)
If your theory is sound, it makes the good guy god look like a lazy, uncaring, unmotivated entitity
Au Contraire' if you have a good product it sells itself. That is why it doesn't need to be marketed under 900 different names with different packaging to sell the product to different people. The other guy is call his stuff "islam, "wiccan", "druid", "new age", "taoist", "hindu". "buddhist" ...its all the same stuff in different wrapping, kinda like "Pontiac", Buick", "Oldsmobile" and "Chevy".
Dunno about you, but I dont the christian god doing much of late,
Well if you've read the Bible, which you probably haven't you'll notice God usually uses PEOPLE to do his stuff for him; either as mouthpieces or to do the actual heavy lifting. For example, do you really think that God couldn't have parted the Red Sea without Moses touching his staff to the water? How about that troublemaker Daniel? I think that God could have squished belshazzar without Danny being a part of the picture, don't you?
And Joshua? A bit player, really.
In that line of thought, I will toss out a few events of the last 60 or so years which are His work being done through others.
The Fall of the USSR and the satellite states, all GODLESS communism and having a horrid human rights record. You can thank Ronaldus Magnus and the goodhearted, largely Christian US for that. Godless European Communism ended up on Nikita's "ash heap of history" and the truth was finally outed. The USSR was a beastial state that treated people horrifically.
Afghanistan, a pagan theocracy deposed, human rights to the forefront, 26.7 million people freed from the totalitarian govement and islam shown for the bestial religion which it is.
Iraq, over 22,000,000 freed and again, islam shown for the bestial religion which it is
9/11 brought many in the US back to their churches and families and lit a fire in the bellies of many suffering a depressing maliase after 8 years of the hildebeest and her vestigial husband squatting in the White House. I can't say that the current occupant is much better but he's at least a little better.
Sudan and Darfur? The cries of the persecuted Christians there are starting to be heard by the world ,and again islam is being shown for what it is, a brutal, bestial religion.
Who came to the aid of the tsunami victims, mostly islamic? A Christisn nation in the form of the US is the biggest benefactor. Not the rich islamic oil states, but a Christian state.
Shall we address WWII? The US, again, was the one who saved the world from the beast of Nazi aryan mysticism (read:paganism) and the Shinto/Bushido Japanese warrior castes. (again: paganism)
Like it or don't the US is a Christian nation. Our founding father made that clear through the Federalist Papers and other writings. Its foundation was ALSO told foretold in the Bible and God had to give the old world the likes of the Wycliffs to keep the Christian faith alive under the pograms of the catholic power machine, then the quasi-justaposition Martin Luther and Gutenberg to break the bondage of the papist church to bring it the new world/America into fruition.
There's an excellent book out there written in 1880 called "America in Prophecy" that is as fresh in it's reprint as it was in its original. I'd highly reccommend it as educational reading on this topic.
but expecing us to by a lot of old, unfullfilled promises that you cant cash in on untill you die
What is unfulfilled? Biblical prophecies are being fulfilled all the time, many in and through Christ, many efore and since then. Here's a link to some with the probability statistics showing how unlikey it was that they were just random chance:
http://www.askapastor.org/proph.html
Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Chicago: Moody Press, 1963) determines the probability of one man fulfilling eight of the prophecies of the Old Testament for the Messiah to be 1 in 10 to the 17th power........
Peter Stoner then goes on to consider the possibility of any one person fulfilling 48 of the prophecies by chance. Here the odds jump to 1 in 10 to the 157th power. That number would look like this:
1 out of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
of course it could just be coincidence.....
Now the reason I keep mentioning events foretold in the Bible which are or have occurred is because of your comment (above) about old unfulfilled promises. Can you show me ANY OTHER relgion outside of Christianity where promises/prophecies made in writing, over the life of the religion, have been fulfilled?
I honestly don't know of ANY but I am open to any evidence of same which you might have to offer. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/26/2005 5:50:32 PM | lotta, was gonna drop you a PM but your restrictions prohibit same. Too bad. You needed some commendations here... | |
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-One-
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Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 90 | |
| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/27/2005 1:17:12 AM |
John 8:56-58- Implies Jesus is the reincarnation of someone who know Abraham
This is not the first time I've heard of this, as a validation of your claim I will mention something mentioned in another post on another thread on the subject of the dead sea scrolls.
"The Galilean Master . . . appears in many respects as an astonishing reincarnation of [the Teacher of Righteousness in the scrolls]. Like the latter, He preached penitence, poverty, humility, love of one's neighbor, chastity. Like him, He prescribed the observance of the law of Moses, the whole Law, but the Law finished and perfected, thanks to His own revelations. Like him, He was the Elect and Messiah of God, the Messiah redeemer of the world. Like him, He was the object of the hostility of the priests.... Like him He was condemned and put to death. Like him He pronounced judgment on Jerusalem, which was taken and destroyed by the Romans for having put Him to death. Like him, at the end of time, He will be the supreme judge. Like him, He founded a Church whose adherents fervently awaited his glorious return."
-Andre Dupont- Sommer Scholar, and member of the scroll publication team. Damning evidence? I suppose it depends on the Interpretation.
Mathew 11-14- Jesus says: "And if you are willing to accept it, he (John the Baptist) *is* Elijah who was to come. Jesus goes on to say in the same Gospel "But I tell you Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the son of man is going to suffer at their hands." The commentary adds: "The disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist."
The Prophet Malachi 3:1 4:5-6- "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. Right before this prophecy is full filled Through the birth of John the Baptist an Angel announced to his father Zechariah: "And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of their fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." Luke 1-17
In my interpretation this could be argued either way. Physical re-birth, or spiritual re-birth, again it is the reader who must decide. The argument is circular. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/27/2005 1:51:32 AM | I don't think that we're necessarily on opposite sides here, One....
I will go read your excepts in context but they do sound right as you've posted them. Before you get all aflutter a couple of caveats:
God can do ANYTHING, including ressurrection of the dead and reincarnation. (with hillbillies its "reintarnation")
That doesn't mean that you or I will necessarily be back though, unless he sees a use for us like he did Elijah.
I mean after all, didn't his own Son come back in three days?
That also doesn't mean that so many people out there claiming to be reincarnated, really are.
Along that line, I have had 4 different people tell me that they have known me in former lives and oddly, all four told me the same thing about me, then. Figger that one out.
I can't and I am not even going to try to. The person they describe is as my current personality would have lived in another time and their descriptions sound more like "now" than any other time so I just presume that they're seeing what they want based on what I am , not what I was. The only thing that causes a slight twinge is the overlap in descriptions but again, that could be explained as I just did, with one exception. One had never met me and her opening line to me was 'hello warrior. its been a long time".
The source of her power was obvious though an it WASN'T a gift From MY god because she was a "new (old) age"-er. The first time I saw her picture I saw two faces in her one faceshot she sent me; her's and another completely different and rather unpleasant one as if superimposed over her's. I called a friend over and asked her to look at the pic and tell me what she saw without telling her why. The first words out of her mouth was "there are two faces there." 'Nuff said...... | |
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-One-
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Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 92 | |
| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/27/2005 2:40:31 AM | Tyme Gypsy, it should also be noted that Elijah didn't die in the proper sence of the word, but was "Lifted up to heaven in a whirl wind" 2 Kings 2:11 I think. In order for a person to be reincarnated they must first die in the phyysical since. However was this a tornado that took Elijah, or the hand of God, or both perhaps?
Personally I believe in reincarnation, I just dont know how much the Bible supports it. It can be easily argued either way. But upon personal referance, in the end I would have to concure that it does not. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/27/2005 5:40:05 PM | "there is for every man an appointed time ONCE to die, and after that the judgment." --The Bible
What is it about the word "once" that you do not understand? | |
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-One-
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Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 94 | |
| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/27/2005 7:01:14 PM | | Yes for every 'man' there is one death, which means in the physical sence. Pehaps thats where the problem is, it's to easy to take that to mean the flesh, and not the spiritual. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/27/2005 10:56:08 PM | One, you're right that it doesn't support it, but on the other hand it doesn't forbid/codemn/deny it either. It seems to be a non-issue. But the Bible does confirm that we have a soul which lives on after death and which goes to one of any number or places.
I guess it just comes down to finding a definition of "many mansions"
Didn't Edgar Cayce do a book on that? | |
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-One-
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Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 96 | |
| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/27/2005 11:55:55 PM |
The Bible does say we have a spirit that lives on after death
Who denied this? | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/28/2005 11:07:34 AM | | There's nothing in the OT that I can recall that indicates we have a soul. It seems to be a Christian notion that they borrowed from pagans. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/28/2005 1:52:13 PM | | I have been to the center of Edgar Cayce, called the ARE, in Virginia Beach. It gave me the creeps, with a whole library centered on New Age, satanism, astrology, witchcraft, yada yada yada, all the Occult. I believe I was in enemy territory, and I mean territory of the enemy, ruler of this present world, Satan. | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/28/2005 1:55:59 PM | How about John 3:16? "Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of Gawd". If that aint reincarnation plain and simple... | |
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| Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/28/2005 2:05:17 PM |
I have been to the center of Edgar Cayce, called the ARE, in Virginia Beach. It gave me the creeps, with a whole library centered on New Age, satanism, astrology, witchcraft, yada yada yada, all the Occult. I believe I was in enemy territory, and I mean territory of the enemy, ruler of this present world, Satan.
Just becuase you dont understand something dosen't make it evil... | |
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