. . . WHY does it say "... and he shall go no more out..." in the following Scripture which sounds so much like souls are departing from God going into human existence(many times reincarnating) contrasted to the Heaven and Hell of Orthodoxy which both words are from Greek and latter Roman concepts as in Judaism Heaven and Hell DO NOT exist as taught by the works of Dante and Catholicism?

I mean *IF* one does the Legwork thru study, the concepts of Heaven and Hell come from myths of Greek Gods, NOT in the Old Testament til the Greek Conquest!

Revelation 3:12 (King James Version)

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The I wonder why the Jewish people allowed this quote in their cannonized Old Testament that defends a Pre-Existence:

Job 8:9 KJV

9(For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:)

If we are but of yesterday as Job claims there must be a life or existence before this one!

You just DO NOT seem to get IT!

How Shallow soooo mannnnyyy Christians seem to be to beleive that a baby can die quite young and an old man who all his life was quite stubborn yet lived to be 90.

*IF* you trully believe there is a just God who exemplifys JUSTICE and mercy How in Christ's Name(not taking in vain) but you claim to be preaching Christ's doctrine on the afterlife, can you believe with those cast into poverty, born crippled for life of deformed, another born rich and healthy, HOW in the Lord's name can you still cling to the dogmatic thought of a just God permitting this without opening your ears and seeing that in one lifetime one CAN NOT be given adequate chances based upon personality and life endeavors as those of orthodoxy preach?

The scriptures were given here PRO on re-incarnation yet so many choose to re-act as ostriches and put their head in the sand and avoid looking at them as MAYBE!

here are several Bible verses that strongly imply reincarnation.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 Suggests God knows everyone from a previous life.
Ecclisiastes 1:4-9 Implies the cyclic nature of existence.
Proverbs 8:22-31 implies the pre-existence of the soul.
Psalm 51:5 Makes no sense without a pre-existent soul.
Matthew 11:13-15 Jesus says John the Baptist is Elijah.
Matthew 17:11-13 Ditto.
Malachi 4:5 Promises that Elijah will return. Not someone like Elijah, but Elijah himself.
Matthew 16:13-14 Jesus was rumored to be John the Baptist, Elijah, or one of the prophets, which implies reincarnation.
John 3:3 Talks about being born again.
John 8:56-58 implies Jesus is the reincarnation of someone who knew Abraham.
John 9:1-3 Is the man's blindness part of his Karmic debt? Jesus says no, but doesn't rebuke the Apostles for their apparent reincarnation presupposition.
Galatians 6:7 Implies Karma.
Ephesians 1:4 Implies pre-existence of the soul.
Revelations 1:7 Implies reincarnation since the people who pierced Christ are long dead.

The writer to the Hebrew Christians wrote, ". . . it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment . . . ." -- Hebews 9:27.

Anyone who does not have God's Spirit will not correctly understand the things which require God's Spirit in order to be correctly understood. ". . . But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they [the things of the Spirit of God] are spiritually discerned." -- 1 Corinthians 1:14.

God's spirit is telling me that there is reincarnation. So who wants to argue with God?

YEAh, but how many human beings are we in all our precious existences.

I know plenty of Christians that think this way, and for now the Heaven and Hell myth works for them.:laugh:

But the problem with this Reincarnation argument in the Bible is just like the argument that Christians pose on the Jews about Christ being the Son Of God: they, the Jewish community, DO NOT want to hear it and like yourself they choose scriptures to defend their stand and try to avoid verses that are contrary to their argument.

You didn't or haven't even given thought to why as has been stated the Spirit told John on Patamos Island "...go no more out...." implying that souls were leaving heavenly realms and going into Earthly lifetimes until they had earned the right to "....be Pillars in the Temple..."!

That is one of the promises to those who overcome this world. Most children grow up and never again belong as part of God's temple. (see Mark 10:14,15; John 3:3,7; 1 John 5:4,5; Revelation 21:7; 1 Corinthians 3:16; Romans 8:9; John 1:12,13; 2 Corinthians 5:17; etc.)

It's like their is a scripture the orthodox Jews play upon by a Prophet that in translation decribes the Messiah's mother as Maid not Virgin that the Jews go hogwild on and insist she was a maiden not virgin. They won't even bring up the Prophet who's word is definitely virgin as it detroys their argument against the birth of Christ.

You keep hopping around and are avoiding the scriptures because it's against what you have been taught and goes against your beleif in salvation. But could you be another one of many that misunderstand scripture?:angel:

'm more than willing to discuss any of these OP references with you. Or any others.

If Heaven and Hell are just myth what then is the risk? If what I know is right, I'm sure of Heaven (1 John 5:13.) If I'm wrong in this, will I not get another shot at life according to your thinking?

It's not that you are wrong on your scriptural reference but the integrity of the scriptures are in question. If you have done any study of the Greek myths you can see where the terms Heaven and Hell originated; it is NOT a Hebrew/Jewish concept!

*IF* you check out the Old Testament, the Jewish documents that we Christians value, the concepts of death are references like '...sleeping with our fathers...', ' ..Sheol..', ' or the Valley of Gehenna where an Israelite king sacrificed his children to idols. The concept of Heaven and Hell was added by the corrupt Church by writters like Dante who played up the 'Hell concept'(what social control', just like they invented 'Purgatory and the pay your way out for one's living relatives' that Martin Luther protested so strongly about.

. . . If you have done any study of the Greek myths you can see where the terms Heaven and Hell originated; it is NOT a Hebrew/Jewish concept!

*IF* you check out the Old Testament, the Jewish documents that we Christians value, the concepts of death are references like '...sleeping with our fathers...', ' ..Sheol..', ' or the Valley of Gehenna where an Israelite king sacrificed his children to idols. The concept of Heaven and Hell was added by the corrupt Church by writters like Dante who played up the 'Hell concept'(what social control', just like they invented 'Purgatory and the pay your way out for one's living relatives' that Martin Luther protested so strongly about.

Check out this website:

http://www.myastrologybook.com/Hades-Pluto-mythology-gods.htm

Strange that they dismiss the Orthodox concept of Christian afterlife!

Really? Maybe you are not listening close enough. Bodily resurrection from the grave/sea/ashes/dust IS the reincaration God is talking about. Unless you are calling God a liar (Revelation 20:11-15.) (see 1 John 5:9-12.)

Then go to www.biblegateway.com and look up 'Heaven and Hell' in the Old Testament; better yet talk to some traditional Jews about the afterlife.

Strange that they dismiss the Orthodox concept of Christian afterlife!

Also, most Orthodox Jews believe in Gilgul Neshamot, reincarnation, that our souls have damaged themselves through sin, and so need to perform a Tikun, a "fix" on their soul, before they return to Heaven and stay there. Until then, they keep having to come back, to make their Tikun, their "fix". One can even make a partial fix, but still need to return to the Earth, to complete the rest. One famous Rabbi would always stand up when disabled children came into the room, saying that these were the reincarnated souls of great righteous people, who had completed almost all of their Tikun. Because G-d wanted to ensure that they could complete the tiny part of their Tikun that was left, and be protected from runining their hard efforts, by making a mistake in sinning, he made them disabled, so they could not sin or do anything but fix their Tikun.

Very enlightening, but I wonder how much the Grreek conquest about 300 years before Christ and latter the Roman beleifs that were somewhat borrowed from the Greek myths had or have influenced present Judaism?

I know some Jews who claim to be devout who say there is 'no afterlife'! It's refreshing to know there are many like yourself who have a greater interest in the next life with factual data to substantiate the beleifs.

It had to be the Early corruption of the Catholic Church that robbed this beleif in Jewish re-incarnation from the masses! And then as Revelation says '...Daughter of the whore...', refering to the searching yet confused protestant Churches that sprouting from her since Luther and King Henry VIII!

See Also the History Channel's take on Heaven, Hell, and Dantes influence with the early Church!

It was just such a good read, and so imaginative, that many believed it must be true.

That's funny. I communicate with the spirit world. You read a book, and assume that I call God a liar? They don't take credit for the entire Book. I knew you were going to ask. They even take partial credit for the Koran. Go figure?

. . . I can believe as the spirits guide me. the Bible is a great reference to spiritual work, but it has chaff in the wheat, like John the Baptist declared. Jesus saw tares in the field as well. Imagine that?

I live the "two commandments". In these are contained all of the law, and of the prophets.

The wheat are His whom He saved, the chaff are the lost. The saved are baptized in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8) The lost are to be immersed/baptized in fire on the day of judgement .

The same also may be said of many sacred texts

I also was and am still an avid reader of ancient Greek, Roman and Norse mythology, finding them very entertaining in a pantheistic days of our lives kind of way. I was quite a religiose Anglican in my earlier years, looking at the incredible goings on of Greek, Roman and Norse gods, goddeses, and other divine and semi divine beings as being altogether too fantastic to be real. It took me to adulthood to realise, that the Abrahamic faiths are of the same mythological genre of literature. Reincarnation and rebirth seems to be a common theme in many religions and cultures....that it is a commonplace notion, does not mean that there is any factual basis for the belief, just that there is a desire to have a better life, than the one we are living.

Speaking as a "traditional" Jew (we call ourselves Orthodox Jews), there is a concept of Heaven and Hell in Judaism. In Judaism, when you die, you are given a punishment for every bad thing you did, or every good thing you avoided doing, in Hell, which you can spend a maximum of an Earth year in, but no more, and then you are given a reward for every good thing you did and every bad thing you made yourself not do, in Heaven. There are a few exceptions. If you have done truly extreme evil, then G-d might reward your few good deeds in this life, so that you do not even get into Heaven, and after Hell, your soul ends in oblivion. In a few rare exceptions, someone who has done much good and much evil, experiences "the slingshot", where 2 angels slingshot your soul from one end of the Earth to the other, before they go to Hell.

I believe the Xian equivalent of Jewish Hell is called Purgatory. But there is no concept in Judaism of a place where anyone resides in everlasting Hell.

Really? Maybe you are not listening close enough. Bodily resurrection from the grave/sea/ashes/dust IS the reincaration God is talking about. Unless you are calling God a liar (Revelation 20:11-15.) (see 1 John 5:9-12.)

Speaking as a "traditional" Jew (we call ourselves Orthodox Jews), there is a concept of Heaven and Hell in Judaism. In Judaism, when you die, you are given a punishment for every bad thing you did, or every good thing you avoided doing, in Hell, which you can spend a maximum of an Earth year in, but no more, and then you are given a reward for every good thing you did and every bad thing you made yourself not do, in Heaven. There are a few exceptions. If you have done truly extreme evil, then G-d might reward your few good deeds in this life, so that you do not even get into Heaven, and after Hell, your soul ends in oblivion. In a few rare exceptions, someone who has done much good and much evil, experiences "the slingshot", where 2 angels slingshot your soul from one end of the Earth to the other, before they go to Hell.

I've never heard this before. I don't recall reading anything remotely like this in the OT. Where does your information come from?