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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Obama is an utter failure.      Home login  
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 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 476
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Obama is an utter failure.Page 20 of 43    (3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43)

Hate to break it to ya, but YOU are the goverment. I am the goverment. We're ALL the goverment.


So you are the Christian teaparty group in your part of the world? Haha, so it's all your fault. Gotchya.


The ruling on ACA is a beginning.

You may not like that there is opposition but it exists. The opposition doesn't have to have a replacement for something that doesn't exist. However, now that it does exist it is the responsibility of those that think it is so great to start demonstrating effectiveness and desired outcome regardless of any and all doubts.

If you don't get that than you really have no clue why people oppose this. You are so stuck on you OWS mentality that you do not remember what reality is any more.


but we can take back our representative goverment from the Rich, Powerful and Greedy who for the last 30 years have been stealing our power, treasure and future for themselves.

USA USA USA rah rah rah... Wake up Dorthy.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 477
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Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 11:27:34 AM
http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/news-analysis/ppaca-ruled-okay-8-issues-hospitals-should-keep-in-mind-moving-forward.html



5. Upticks in horizontal integration. Some hospitals won't be able to integrate care and service lines alone and will need to partner with other systems, which is already happening. Community hospital systems may not have the necessary assets to achieve clinical integration.

"When they do the math, they will find it's more attractive to part of a larger system that has the necessary resources," Dr. Saxena says.

It may be very difficult for smaller hospitals to implement data analytics, acquire and partner with more physicians, as well as redesign care delivery models alone.

"All these things are very expensive and pretty difficult for standalone community hospitals to be able to pull off," Dr. Saxena notes.


This is now the real world and not political debate. Hospitals and providers will severely struggle with the costs of implementation and there will likely be significant consolidations throughout the industry in unexpected places. The money required to be in compliance comes from where? If Government will subsidize the premiums then guess where this money comes from. For those that still are unable to make it work they will either shutdown or be consolidated under larger companies. larger companies that can keep their rates at the maximum allowed by government to get the maximum amount of subsidies.

When the industry starts becoming consolidated down to only a few very large providers what do we have. We have government funded large corporate monopolies.

It is possible it could all work out... This is an experiment. What is the measure of success? What is the fallback plan if success isn't achieved? Even the ability to measure success hasn't been created nor funded yet and it is only theoretical guessing on how that will be achieved. What is the measure of success for creating the measure of success?


http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/news-analysis/16-healthcare-leaders-react-to-the-supreme-courts-decision-to-uphold-ppaca.html


With 32 million newly insured Americans entering the healthcare system, addressing the nation’s physician shortage — projected to climb to more than 90,000 by 2020 — is now more critical than ever. Medical schools have done their part, increasing enrollments during the last six years in response to these shortage projections. But the overall supply of U.S. physicians cannot expand unless Congress increases the number of federally funded residency training positions, a number that has been frozen since 1997.

We urge Congress to move quickly to provide more federal support for additional doctor training to ensure that Americans have access to care — not just an insurance card.


So now we required federally subsidize schools to crank out doctors?

Where does it stop being a requirement of the federal government... which as you clearly stated and believe...

Hate to break it to ya, but YOU are the goverment. I am the goverment. We're ALL the goverment.

 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 478
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Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 12:23:47 PM

Every point I made you disagreed with you response back that I am parroting.. I am offended and there is nothing that you have brought to the table other than idiocy.


That's because every talking point they post are parroted talking points of Maddow/Maher. These are exactly the same points, sometimes word for word, sometimes partly paraphrased, that their dynamic duo preach, the posters absorb, & then respout on here.

Cut & paste some of those talking points into the GOOGLE searchbox, then type MADDOW and/or MAHER after the phrase. You will get many hits that correspond in almost plagarized fashion to what they post. They come in here & repeat the same tag lines that the Maddow/Maher duo have been stating, parrot-head style.

P.S.: My health insurance premium just now went up by another $121 per month, out of my pocket. Thanks.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 479
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 12:56:14 PM
Gesssh! For the first time, I actually agree with one of your talking points on here.

"I don't trust government"

Although not exactly how I feel, it is very similar and something I have railed about before.

Government is the only thing of 'size' that can reign in the disease called greed. Universal healthcare should not be an option for the sick and dying, it should be a right. But don't say that to the doctors, insurance companies and big pharma. We are their piggy bank, to squeeze out of, their Mcmansions, BMW/Mercedes, 6 or 7 figure incomes out of.

The problem with government is no one IN IT wants just enough people to do the job. Oh he11 no, if they manage 10 people, they want to manage 25, so they make more benjamins! If they manage 25, then they want to manage 100, to make more benjamins. To many in government management, it is a growth industry.

But because of the greed of bereaucrats, that doesn't mean we shouldn't get the programs we need. It means the gawd damned congress(note:controlled by republicans who want to control costs, hahaha) should be using their oversight committees to oversea and control the explosive growth of how many people are employed on any task.

Alas you can't do that if your busy running witch hunts on the AG, or reaffirming the slogan "in god we trust", or trying to insert vaginal probes! Or my personal favorite, taking 14 to 20 weeks off a year, because you work so hard!

Why are some government workers half as productive as those of us, in the private sector? We certainly pay them well enough. People need to recognize that all government is not evil, maybe highly inefficient, but not evil. That some services, needed by the majority of us, would be good.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 480
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Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 1:06:08 PM

People need to recognize that all government is not evil, maybe highly inefficient, but not evil. That some services, needed by the majority of us, would be good.


They do. It is the libertarian platform that would reduce government to an insignificant level... probably with about as much real authority as the UN....

What the republican side of the house recognize is that "people" are by nature selfish and with that selfishness comes greed. You can't stop it. So, feed it or it will find a way to feed itself and that usually comes through hidden deals, theft, or 'any means possible.'

I have no problem if my dr drives a Bentley. Why would I? If they created and supported their business to the level of success that affords them Kobi steaks and silver platters than why would I think he was a 'bad dr'? However, someone graduating from Sally Struthers daytime school for MD's is going to scare the hell out of me.

It is human nature to want more. You can't stop it. It is a very healthy motivator that drives innovation and improvements significantly faster than mandates.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 481
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Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 1:39:36 PM

That's because every talking point they post are parroted talking points of Maddow/Maher.
LMAO ...
Not likely ... most especially since my experiences with universal healthcare date back to my life in Germany which predates MSNBC talk show hostess, Maddow.


P.S.: My health insurance premium just now went up by another $121 per month, out of my pocket. Thanks.
The result of the "haves" trying to shaft the "have nots". Guess you'll just have to live with it until the PPACA totally kicks in. Then there will be no way the "haves" can continue to shut out the "have nots".
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 482
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 1:42:38 PM
"What the republican side of the house recognize is that "people" are by nature selfish and with selfishness comes greed."

Hahahahahahaha! Change that "recognize" to embrace, love and will do anything to support it, and you would be closer to right!

"I have no problem if my dr drives a Bentley"

Oh horseshit! I love when people make statements like that. Because dr X drives a Bentley, the graduates of Sally Struthers, think they should be able to as well. there fore dr's Y to W also want their Bentley's.

Further if said dr charged you $1,000 for an office visit, I think you'd have a problem with him. The problem is generic, dr's and insurance company's want to raise prices 20%+ every year. Instead of meeting with you for 20 minutes and giving you their undivided attention. The nurse and PA come in 35-40 minutes after your appointment time. Ask for the problem or reason for the visit, do the tests, then 40 minutes later, in strolls the doctor, sits for 2 or 3 minutes, does a quick once over, scribbles some notes or enters some on a computer program. Smiles says goodbye and is off to the next person.

If that is what he does, and gets in 20-25 patients an hour, why the need to raise prices every year? Because he can? Hahahahaha!!!

I'm all for capitalism, improvements in care, may warrant change in price, but what I described year after year, doesn't begin to rise to the level of the kind of cost increases the medical profession gets. The same with insurance companies, no better than casino's! They were losing heavily on #22(cancer) or #16(MS), so in the middle of the game they say, no one can bet on 22 or 16 anymore. AND STILL, even after doing that they cotinue to raise the price of premiums, to afford better pay for CEO's, for private jets.

Now when the people fight back, they want to rerig the game? When the government wants to become a player in the game to control costs, they send in their jackals(lobbyists) to help rerig the game.

Your post is extremely naive and takes a whole bite of the talking points of the faux news POV. Sorry but either fix the system, or tear down the system, but greed left unchecked in this arena, means people die. If their is death panels, according to your second paragraph, that is where they lie, with the republicans.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 483
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Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 2:29:33 PM

Your post is extremely naive and takes a whole bite of the talking points of the faux news POV. Sorry but either fix


So, in other words you have nothing to say about it so you rinse and repeat a cliche... Kewl deal Kaiser...
 surfaceofficer
Joined: 8/8/2011
Msg: 484
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 4:49:19 PM
P.S.: My health insurance premium just now went up by another $121 per month, out of my pocket. Thanks.

The result of the "haves" trying to shaft the "have nots". Guess you'll just have to live with it until the PPACA totally kicks in. Then there will be no way the "haves" can continue to shut out the "have nots".


I can compound on this point a tad further: your premium went up because of a practice known as "hedging" which is common in business. In other words, the "haves" anticipate droughts in their solvency and raise prices accordingly (one reason why it doesn't pay to belong to small insurance companies with ambitious growth aspirations. ALWAYS read annual reports). This benefits them (at your expense) because if they are RIGHT about the events they are hedging against (which they seldom are), they should at least break even. If they are WRONG about the events they hedge against...they stand to profit; its a win win for them. People see these things happen and AUTOMATICALLY blame the healthcare law (the easiest scapegoat), completely ignoring the obvious method of figuring out why the premiums would raise; asking the insurance company.

In theory (based on how insurance systems work), once the PPACA takes effect, premiums will go down significantly across the board.

However, if 2015 (about the time you'll start seeing the effects) is too long to wait, why not take the "free market" approach and shop for a better price? That seems to be the most "republican" thing to do.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 485
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Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 7:49:18 PM
^ @surface


your premium went up because of a practice known as "hedging" which is common in business. In other words, the "haves" anticipate droughts in their solvency and raise prices accordingly


Glad to see that there is somebody here who knows what he is talking about! I was thinking the same thing but you capsulized it better then I could have.

The problem is NOT healthcare costs; the problem is with UNREGULATED practices of insurance companies. Yes, healthcare costs do go up but not commensurate with the cost of insurance. Doctors and Hospitals DO NOT get (or have not gotten) service re-imbursement increments of 60--80% (in line with premium increases) over the past 10 years. Thus to blame the healthcare industry for the rise in costs is totally naive (at best), completely ignorant (at worst)

It is the ideal goal of all insurance co's (and their share-holders)would be to WEED out all "high" risk members (or applicants), through death or attrition, and maintain the healthiest (aka: low utilizers of heathcare services) on their rolls. This is otherwise known as "cherry-picking", and is a main staple in of maintaining profitability within any given company. This cannot be done under ideal circumstances henceforth the "hedging" that takes place. Thus this would explain why Insurance co's DO NOT readily accept those with pre-existing conditions! this is something that will be illegal when the ACA is fully implemented. This of course does not apply to the medicare recipients!

The insurance co's lobbied hard to block Obamacare, for fear that it would kill their "golden goose". The original bill had for a "public option" which would have been the great equalizer; however, that part was nixed because of a (successful) wave of scare tactics (directed mainly at the less intelligent voting population) employed by GOP shills that caught Obama flat-footed. Thus the current ACA that got passed is but a watered down version.

Like any major overhauls; the ACA (Obamacare) will be laden with alot of "bugs" when it takes off, and there will be glitches within it that will require trouble-shooting. IMO, the effectiveness of correcting these inherent problems will define the success(or failure) of the ACA. In other words, it will be a WORK IN PROGRESS for a long time to come. But a WORK that has to be perfected and de-bugged.

The key to controlling healthcare costs is through a single payer system ( a contracted insurance company strictly regulated); either nationally or on a state to state basis. This will never happen because there are too many "birds" who are feathering their nests from the money being tossed to them by the insurance industry.
 PGL7
Joined: 8/7/2010
Msg: 486
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 9:03:31 PM

In Germany, the "provincial government" had more than enough doctors for us to choose from ... and took a census every few years just to make sure the population was taken care of. I lived in a very provincial place ... surrounded (back then) 3/4 by the East German border ... but never had a problem finding a physician to help my growing family.


Well here are the facts about German Health Care...
In Germany, health insurees are covered either by statutory health insurance (SHI) or private health insurance (PHI). Due to a 20%–35% higher reimbursement of physicians for patients with PHI, it is often claimed that patients with SHI are faced with longer waiting times when it comes to obtaining outpatient appointments.
Germany shows clear differences in access to care, with SHI patients waiting 3.08 times longer for an appointment than PHI patients. Wide-spread anecdotal reports of shorter waiting times for PHI patients were empirically supported. Discrepancies in access to care not only depend on accessibility to comprehensive health insurance cover, but also on the level of reimbursement for the physician.

So the poor wait 3 times as long for elective surgery in the German System.



I lived in Florida ... worked as a nurse there and am quite aware of the Canadian Snowbirds who have "elective" surgery in Florida.

Again, it's a good business down there because a lot of the Canadians' elective surgery is in fact cosmetic surgery ... often cosmetic surgery that they don't necessarily want their friends to know about ... face lifts, nose jobs, breast augmentations, liposuctions ... even bariatric surgery that doctors up in Canada don't consider absolutely necessary, but American doctors appear to be able to do ... especially if the customer is paying cash....
I can well imagine that the "elective (cosmetic) surgery" in Canada would be put on the back burner


Hard to believe you are a nurse when you don't know what "elective surgery is".
Cosmetic surgery is only a small portion of all the elective surgical procedures done by doctors.
In fact most cosmetic surgery is not covered in the Canadian system.
Elective surgery is simply "Non Emergency Surgery" everything from a tonsillectomy, to a knee replacement.

Orderly in a hospital...EH?

The waiting times are brutal up here.

Thank you for telling us about your living in Germany it does explain a lot.

"The Economy, Stupid!"
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 487
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Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 10:08:03 PM

Well here are the facts about German Health Care...
Sure it is ... not even a link where you might have picked up your information ... out of your head?


Orderly in a hospital...EH?
Hardly.

Just keep those cosmetic surgeries coming our way ... maybe your cousin is one of the so-called doctors performing them so he can bolster his income from Canada. Does he file with the IRS on his income here in the US?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 488
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Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 10:32:44 PM

Glad to see that there is somebody here who knows what he is talking about! I was thinking the same thing but you capsulized it better then I could have.


Clueless

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=21669

The negotiation that takes place between care providers (such as the above-mentioned hospital group) and insurance providers equates to a discussion of the prices consumers will pay. When insurance companies see their prices driven up by powerful, monopolistic health groups, these price hikes are passed onto consumers in the form of higher premiums.

The danger here is that the PPACA is set to ignite these tendencies among hospitals nationwide. Because the Act imposes burdensome regulations that increase administrative expenditures and threaten noncompliance costs, individual doctors and small practices are coerced into mergers.
•According to one analysis, the number of hospital mergers and acquisitions has increased by more than 50 percent since the law's passage.
•The last big wave of consolidations, in the 1990s, caused market prices nationwide to climb by at least 5 percent, and as much as 40 percent in some markets.

Source: Margot Sanger-Katz, "The New Goliaths," National Journal, February 16, 2012.



http://www.aei.org/speech/health/healthcare-reform/ppaca/health-care-consolidation-and-competition-after-ppaca/

Investment bankers who work on mergers and acquisitions in the healthcare services industry privately concede that there is a lot of activity among health plans looking to acquire physician networks. So far, the large health plans have not been able to buy as many assets as the hospitals. For their part, the doctors seem to prefer to sell their practices to hospitals rather than the health plans.



http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2012/06/28/253454.htm

“As the reform law is implemented, health plans will continue to focus on promoting affordability and peace of mind for their beneficiaries. The law expands coverage to millions of Americans, a goal health plans have long supported, but major provisions, such as the premium tax, will have the unintended consequences of raising costs and disrupting coverage unless they are addressed.

“Health plans will continue to work with policymakers on both sides of the aisle to make coverage more affordable, give families and employers peace of mind, and promote choice and competition. Health plans also will continue to lead efforts to reform the payment and delivery system to promote prevention and wellness, help patients and physicians manage chronic disease, and reward quality care.”


http://www.bna.com/health-insurers-look-n12884910402/

Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association President and Chief Executive Officer Scott Serota also emphasized the tax, saying in a statement that the nation's 39 Blue Cross and Blue Shield plans, which cover about 100 million people, “will continue to implement the law while working with policy makers to fix provisions that will increase costs, such as the health insurance tax that will add hundreds of dollars to families' premiums each year.”


Just because you have stars in your eyes doesn't mean reality will magically transform into unicorns and fairy’s for you. Wake up Dorothy... or go back to some other country that your more fond of.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/with-obamacare-its-the-economic-costs-that-matter/article/2500659

1. Starting in 2014, the hiring of a company's 50th worker will cost an extra $40,000 per year. PPACA raises employment costs by requiring employers to offer qualifying insurance coverage or else pay a penalty. Because this requirement will apply only to firms with more than 49 full-time employees, it will discourage the hiring of full-time workers. Firms with more than 49 workers will have to pay $2,000 a year for each employee without qualifying coverage (the first 30 workers are exempt).
 surfaceofficer
Joined: 8/8/2011
Msg: 489
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 6/30/2012 11:12:05 PM
Clueless


1. There's no need to be rude; not that I've noticed anyway.

2. Hedging happens for a reason. Those reasons vary (which is why I didn't go into them.)

The link you provided outlines ONE possible outcome of the PPACA, but not a science or a certainty by any measure of the term. Part of hedging is trying to predict what the market and the competition will do. It is more of a lottery than a science. Thus...until there is feasible evidence that such phenomena as described in that article is happening and/or will trend...it is useless as a credible source.

Remember...sources without science are opinions. Such unqualified statistics could be just as easily obtained from Rush Limbaugh.
 PGL7
Joined: 8/7/2010
Msg: 490
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 1:24:18 AM
Sure it is ... not even a link where you might have picked up your information ... out of your head?

Prove it wrong!



Just keep those cosmetic surgeries coming our way ... maybe your cousin is one of the so-called doctors performing them so he can bolster his income from Canada. Does he file with the IRS on his income here in the US?

Not really sure what Cosmetic surgeries in Florida really have to do with the discussion but if it pleases you then go for it.
We will clean up the mess lord knows you orderly's clean up enough messes at work.


But I digress...

U.S. consumers spent no more in May than in April after seeing almost no gain in their pay. The lack of growth in consumer spending and wages suggests that a faltering job market is slowing the economy.

The Commerce Department said Friday that consumer spending was unchanged in May. Income growth edged up 0.2%, but that was mostly because of gains from investments. Wages, the largest component of income, were essentially flat.

The government also said spending after adjusted for inflation was weaker in April and March than first thought.

"The Economy, Stupid!"
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 491
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History
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 8:25:14 AM


Sure it is ... not even a link where you might have picked up your information ... out of your head?
Prove it wrong!
I think you've got it mixed up.

One makes a statement based on their ability to prove it. If one can't prove a detailed statement ... it's not the reader's job to disprove something someone may have pulled out of thin air.


Orderly in a hospital...EH?
Hardly.
I am a nurse that often gets hired to go see rich Canadian Snowbirds ... to change the dressings on their cosmetic surgeries they don't want their northern neighbors to know about ...


We will clean up the mess lord knows you orderly's clean up enough messes at work.
I am not an "orderly" (whatever demeaning thing is being insinuated by that remark).

Regardless, I don't owe you any explanations about my work and certainly don't need to endure any insults from you either. It's against the forum rules.


The Commerce Department said Friday that consumer spending was unchanged in May. Income growth edged up 0.2%, but that was mostly because of gains from investments. Wages, the largest component of income, were essentially flat.
Thank you for making my point ... the "haves" just keep getting richer and really just don't care about the "have nots".
 one eyed jacks
Joined: 4/5/2009
Msg: 492
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History
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 9:46:11 AM

Well here are the facts about German Health Care...
In Germany, health insurees are covered either by statutory health insurance (SHI) or private health insurance (PHI). Due to a 20%–35% higher reimbursement of physicians for patients with PHI, it is often claimed that patients with SHI are faced with longer waiting times when it comes to obtaining outpatient appointments.
Germany shows clear differences in access to care, with SHI patients waiting 3.08 times longer for an appointment than PHI patients. Wide-spread anecdotal reports of shorter waiting times for PHI patients were empirically supported. Discrepancies in access to care not only depend on accessibility to comprehensive health insurance cover, but also on the level of reimbursement for the physician.


Cotter is right. It is not up to her to prove you wrong. It is up to you to prove what you state.

It is also not proper for you copy and paste something you find without putting it in quotes and linking back to the original article. What you did could be considerd plagerism.

Here is a link to the original study that you took your quote from.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1475-9276-7-1.pdf

Now when you go to read it you can see you left out a rather important part of the conclusion which is this.


Conclusion: Even with comprehensive health insurance coverage for almost 100% of the population, Germany
shows clear differences in access to care, with SHI patients waiting 3.08 times longer for an appointment than PHI
patients. Wide-spread anecdotal reports of shorter waiting times for PHI patients were empirically supported.
Discrepancies in access to care not only depend on accessibility to comprehensive health insurance cover, but
also on the level of reimbursement for the physician. Higher reimbursements for the provider when it comes to
comparable health problems and diagnostic treatments could lead to improved access to care. We conclude that
incentives for adjusting access to care according to the necessity of treatment should be implemented.


The authors recognise a problem and are working to fix it.
 smarternudumbernmost
Joined: 5/25/2012
Msg: 493
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 10:25:21 AM

I can compound on this point a tad further: your premium went up because of a practice known as "hedging"

IMO this is not true.
"Hedging" is simply insurance on their investments.
Any large investor will have some type of risk insurance management, it will be a cost of business.
It's already built into the premiums that are approved by the state before your individual premium is determined.

The only time there would be a significant cost increase of individual premiums due to "hedging" is if the company changed its investment strategy to something extremely risky and volatile.
Insurance companies tend to avoid risky and volatile, preferring to invest in bonds and security lending.


its a win win for them

IMO it's not really a "win win" so much as a "win/guarantee not to lose so we can still continue operating as a business because these are the cash reserves we need to keep paying claims."


In theory (based on how insurance systems work), once the PPACA takes effect, premiums will go down significantly across the board.

A theory which basically proves the people that put this forward don't really know how insurance or health care systems, or general consumer behavior work, or it wasn't about that at all.
Premiums will go down because they are redefining what a premium is.
If I don't have to buy insurance, only pay a tax, then that tax is my new premium.
Your tax bill is your new "premium," helping my insurance/health care premiums go down.
So thanks.


why not take the "free market" approach and shop for a better price?

Personally, I do shop around for health care.
Now I will have to figure in the price of taxes or a penalty in my search.
I have always paid cash for health care, and gotten it pretty reasonable.
But now the government is mandating I pay them more of my cash.
So I have less to pay my doctor.
I am sure with the governments theory on health care it will mean my doctor will be more than happy to take less cash from me, and my quality of care will be even better, because he'll be so happy with all the new business and all the new money coming in from the government.
 skoochie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Msg: 494
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History
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 10:39:19 AM

Personally, I do shop around for health care.
Now I will have to figure in the price of taxes or a penalty in my search

Why? You do know you won't pay a penalty for buying health insurance right? I do hope you'll look at whatever news source who told you you'll have to pay a penalty for having insurance as a complete fraud.
 surfaceofficer
Joined: 8/8/2011
Msg: 495
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 10:51:40 AM
IMO it's not really a "win win" so much as a "win/guarantee not to lose so we can still continue operating as a business because these are the cash reserves we need to keep paying claims."


Agreement in different words is still very much agreement.


A theory which basically proves the people that put this forward don't really know how insurance or health care systems, or general consumer behavior work, or it wasn't about that at all.


Republican Governor Jindhal of Louisiana said it best: the success of any insurance system depends entirely on the ratio of people PULLING the cart to people RIDING in the cart. I see no reason to complicate it any further than that on the GOVERNMMENT end. What the business do with this changing of the framework is up to them. Those that stay competitive will survive. Those that dig their heels in will not. EVERY new operating cost and/or benefit presents the same challenge. If the playing field is changed from a square to an oval, you must still play within the bounderies or forfeit the game. I trust that businesses will take that into account. The JOB of the government is to understand the overarching framework...essentially control the ebb and flow of the ocean. Sail, surf, swim or sink is up to the business owners to control, NOT the government.


Premiums will go down because they are redefining what a premium is.
If I don't have to buy insurance, only pay a tax, then that tax is my new premium.
Your tax bill is your new "premium," helping my insurance/health care premiums go down.
So thanks.


This answer doesn't make financial sense. There is no need to complicate the formula as it is very simple and consistent across insurance systems: Majority premiums x Insured Risk + Government subsidies - Minority costs - Operating/Growth costs = Premiums Paid. Increasing the majority premiums (effectively done with the mandate and provisions of the bill requiring preexisting conditions to be accepted) will add weight to that equation.

Anything more complicated than that is moving beyond the realm that government could regulate more efficiently than the business itself. If your insurance company has a less orthodox way of navigating the tax code, perhaps you shoud hold them accountable. If you are part of a 'mutual' company, you have every right to do so.

* Your claim of premiums being REDINFED is only a partially valid arguement. The funding you speak about is the "government subsidies" portion of that equation, which will go to the states and be distributed to insurance companies (likely, those part of the exchange) to compensate for insolvancy. If the governor is wise, he or she will prioritize those subsidies to businesses that make the best case for their continued profitability through customers serviced. Simply sitting back, expecting to be 'subsidized' should prove less than a profitable business model for insurance companies hoping to survive.


Personally, I do shop around for health care.
Now I will have to figure in the price of taxes or a penalty in my search.
I have always paid cash for health care, and gotten it pretty reasonable.
But now the government is mandating I pay them more of my cash.
So I have less to pay my doctor.


I'd be interested in knowing your understanding of the mandate, as this 'black and white' scenario is almost completely false. Infact, if you already have health insurance, the only part of health care reform you NEED to pay attention to is the new patients bill of rights. The PPACA doesn't even apply to you.

Insurance companies along with hospitals (and the healthcare industry as a whole to be honest) are the key benefactors of this bill, so if your premiums are raising...I suggest getting the 'long form' answer as to WHY from your insurance company. Keep in mind you won't start to see the effects of the PPACA on your premiums until about 2015; enough time for a few business cycles to lapse.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 496
view profile
History
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 11:33:14 AM

I have always paid cash for health care, and gotten it pretty reasonable.
Sounds like you've never had to spend the night in the hospital and never had to have emergency surgery. Lucky you. If you don't have a family and don't screw around and produce babies, then you might be able to get by with that for a while longer.

Statistics show, though that eventually you will need more than a yearly visit to the doctor for a runny nose.

Those of us with family and children don't always have the luxury of paying cash for our medical needs. Sometimes through no fault of our own, we get to give birth to a baby that has a problem and now with the PPACA we won't have to lose our homes over caring for it and giving it as good a life as possible.

Let me remind you that:
It's the Republicans that don't want us to abort catastrophic birth defects such as babies who will be born without brains, or limbs, but have no solutions for us on how we can take care of them if we have to live under a bridge in a card board box.

It's the Republicans who want us to wait until near death to go to the ER to get help but stand around and bitch and gripe if their premiums go up because we can't pay the bill and the hospital has to come up with the money somehow.

It's the Republicans who bitch and complain about all of us on public help ... because we lost our homes and our jobs related to not being able to pay for badly needed preventative health care ... which caused us to end up being so sick we could no longer work ... and no longer make payments on our mortgages.

It's the Republicans who don't want us to get health care and stay healthy enough to work and pay our bills and spend our salaries which pays taxes and promotes the economy.

Good that you don't have a family and never get so sick that you have to be hospitalized ... or you might sing a totally different tune about paying cash for health care.


Personally, I do shop around for health care.
Now I will have to figure in the price of taxes or a penalty in my search.
Not necessarily ... because your employer will hopefully offer you a plan.

I have been having problems finding a job with any employer that will even offer me a plan to get health care benefits. I'll gladly pay the whole premium ... just offer me a group I can get into.

But now the government is mandating I pay them more of my cash.
You do realize that the mandate was the Republican's idea ... or did you not know that?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/health-care-provision-at-center-of-supreme-court-debate-was-a-republican-idea/2012/03/25/gIQAoCHocS_story.html
Health-care provision at center of Supreme Court debate was a Republican idea
By N.C. Aizenman, Published: March 26

As the Supreme Court moves Tuesday to the heart of the challenge to President Obama’s signature health-care law, there is a curious twist: The case largely rests on the constitutionality of a provision that originated deep in Republican circles.

The individual insurance mandate, which requires virtually all Americans to obtain health coverage or pay a fine, was the brainchild of conservative economists and embraced by some of the nation’s most prominent Republicans for nearly two decades. Yet today many of those champions — including presidential hopefuls Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich — are among the mandate’s most vocal critics.

Meanwhile, even as Democratic stalwarts warmed to the idea in recent years, one of the last holdouts was the man whose political fate is now most closely intertwined with the mandate: President Obama.

“The ironies to this story are endless and everywhere,” said John McDonough, a professor at the Harvard University School of Public Health who, as a Senate Democratic staffer, played a key role in drafting the law.

The tale begins in the late 1980s, when conservative economists such as Mark Pauly, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School of business, were searching for ways to counter liberal calls for government-sponsored universal health coverage.

“We wanted to find an alternative that was more consistent with market-oriented economic ideas and would involve less government intervention,” Pauly said.

His solution: a system of tax credits to ensure that all Americans could purchase at least bare-bones “catastrophic” coverage.

Pauly then proposed a mandate requiring everyone to obtain this minimum coverage, thus guarding against free-riders: people who refuse to buy insurance and then, in a crisis, receive care whose costs are absorbed by hospitals, the government and other consumers.

Heath policy analysts at the conservative Heritage Foundation, led by Stuart Butler, picked up the idea and began developing it for lawmakers in Congress.

By 1993, when President Bill Clinton was readying his major health-care overhaul bill, the Heritage approach — subsidizing and facilitating the purchase of private health plans, while using the individual mandate to maximize participation — had gelled as the natural Republican alternative.

Then-Sen. John H. Chafee (R-R.I.) formally proposed it in a bill that attracted 20 Republican co-sponsors; the bill foundered once Clinton’s effort unraveled. But the idea of the mandate gained currency in the ensuing years as Democrats chastened by the failure of the Clinton plan began considering new solutions more likely to attract bipartisan support.

The Massachusetts plan

That process came to a head in 2004 when Mitt Romney, then governor of Massachusetts, turned to then-Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) for help adopting a health-care overhaul for the state that was largely based on providing residents with government subsidies to buy private insurance.

The plan, signed into law in 2006, regulated insurance companies to a degree beyond anything Pauly had envisioned: For instance, they were barred from excluding or charging higher premiums to people with preexisting health conditions.
But this only heightened the conviction of the health-care plan’s Republican backers that an individual mandate was needed. Without it, they argued, people could wait until they were sick to buy insurance, forcing insurers to pull out of the market or cover the extra cost by massively increasing rates.

McDonough said it is hard to overstate the significance of Kennedy agreeing to take on the free-market ideas advanced by Romney.

“The alliance between Romney and Kennedy was of fundamental importance in terms of creating a level of confidence going into [the] 2008 [presidential elections] that this could actually be the bipartisan path to achieve universal health care in the United States,” he said.

The no-mandate candidate

Indeed, during the 2008 Democratic primary race, candidates Hillary Rodham Clinton, John Edwards and Obama all proposed health-care overhaul plans that shared some features of the Massachusetts system.

But while Clinton and Edwards included an individual mandate, Obama did not (although he did propose requiring parents to get coverage for their children).

Over successive debates and primary battles, Obama hammered the issue as a key difference between himself and Clinton.

“What’s she not telling you about her health-care plan?” said an advertisement for Obama. “It forces everyone to buy insurance, even if you can’t afford it, and you pay a penalty if you don’t.”

“In retrospect, I think Obama had an accurate sense of public opinion about the mandate,” said Paul Starr, a health policy expert at Princeton University, who supports the law but argues that Democrats should have come up with other policies to accomplish the goals of the mandate.

Obama’s views had evolved by December 2008, when, a month after winning the presidential election, he discussed the mandate with former Senate majority leader Thomas A. Daschle (D-S.D.), his nominee for health and human services secretary.

“To my pleasant surprise, the president-elect told us, for the first time, that he might be willing to reconsider his thinking,” Daschle wrote in his book “Getting It Done: How Obama and Congress Finally Broke the Stalemate to Make Way for Health Care Reform.”

The GOP shift

For a while the mandate also retained the support of many prominent Republicans. But as negotiations with Democrats over the health-care bill fell apart in the spring of 2009 — and Republicans spent their August 2009 recess at town hall meetings where furious tea party activists accused them of fomenting a government takeover of health care — positions on the mandate started to shift.

That September, Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), a co-sponsor of the 1993 Chafee bill containing the mandate and a vocal supporter of the idea just three months earlier, declared that “individuals should maintain the freedom to choose whether to purchase health insurance coverage or not.”

During floor debates over the health-care legislation that fall and winter, the mandate took a back seat to more contentious issues relating to abortion, Medicare and the expansion of government regulation.

Still, it continued to build as a political issue after the law’s adoption in 2010, as 27 states began having success with legal challenges largely centered on the mandate’s constitutionality.

Today, opposition to the mandate has become a kind of litmus test of conservative purity. Romney and Gingrich have each struggled, with mixed success, to disavow their former statements in support of it.

Intellectual authors of the idea at the Heritage Foundation have filed legal briefs contesting the mandate and have published mea culpas. “We had made a mistake,” Butler wrote, explaining that “health research and advances in economic analysis have convinced people like me that an insurance mandate isn’t needed to achieve stable, near-universal coverage.”

There is at least one remaining conservative defender: the man who helped start it all, Mark Pauly. He is no fan of the other provisions in 2010 health-care law. Still, he said, when it comes to the mandate, “personally, I think it’s wise public policy.”
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 497
view profile
History
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 1:18:35 PM
It is kind of difficult to find information on how Massachusetts is doing under RomneyCare.
A few of the issues with Obama care is that it is at a federal level and that it is virtually untested. Since Romenycare is now near 5 years and has nearly achieved most of its goals...

Job killer... Doesn't appear to be the case. The ability to actually retire is good.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/07/health-care-reform-kills-jobs_n_1579060.html

"The evidence from Massachusetts would suggest that national health reform does not imply job loss and stymied economic growth," the report concluded.

The Congressional Budget Office projects the law will have complicated effects on the labor market that will shrink it by approximately half a percent -- 800,000 people -- mostly because people will choose to work less or not at all because they will have access to subsidized health care coverage. Some older people who only keep their jobs for the health insurance also would be able to retire, CBO director Douglas Elmendorf testified before Congress in 2010.



Budget Buster:
Unable to tell from this... Looks like cuts to social services in the from of EBT card restrictions and borrowing money but they are struggling. If it is anything like California the budget passed is fake just to make the requirement so legislatures get their pay for passing something. There is no requirement that it actually has to prove out accurate over the year.
http://www.statebudgetsolutions.org/publications/detail/mass-lawmakers-approve-final-state-budget

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/01/gov_deval_patricks_323_billion.html

Costs for MassHealth, the state's Medicaid program, are expected to grow by $518 million to $11.1 billion. Servicing state debt will increase by $178 million to $2.435 billion and pensions will jump by $74 million to $1.5 billion.

The increase in health care, safety net services and legal obligations such as debt and pensions means that many other state services will receive no increases or even reductions.


What was reduced?
Condoms and Crime Preventions?

Teenage pregnancy prevention, for example, was cut to $2.284 million, down 4 percent, or $94,000, resulting in service losses for 1,000 people, the administration said. A medium-security state prison in the southeastern part of the state would be closed, saving $8.9 million.


Reduced representation?

Public defenders currently handle about 25 percent of the cases involving people who can't afford to hire their own lawyer. The cost of defense for the indigent would be reduced by about $20 million if the additional staff public defenders are hired, according to the budget.



It's complicated... Everything is connected and jiggering with the system in a massive way impacts everything in some way. You may think it’s great that instead of going to an ER and getting healthcare as an emergency when you need it for everyone else is ok but it comes with a cost and that cost is paid for in some way other than the way you think which is a direct tax related to the health program. The healthprogram is a law that must be implemented and those costs must be managed. To manage those costs things outside of that direct law will be targeted and it just isn't as f*n black and white as the idiots that think it is the rich white man holding the poor down are stupidly promoting. It is a complicated balance of a system and screwing with the system shouldn't be done by idiots that have nothing but their heads shoved in a political agenda.


The budget also seeks to end certain support services for about 1,750 families with developmentally disabled members, saving $5.5 million. The program is funded at $41 million for the new fiscal year.


So, a small group of really needy people with very high expenses is losing support services. Not sure what they will be losing but is that fair?

No matter how well intentioned a program is those who pay are always at the bottom.


The budget also calls for an increase of 50 cents in the state's $2.51 per pack tax on cigarettes to take effect on Aug. 1, raising $62.5 million to help pay for court-mandated state subsidized health insurance for legal immigrants who are eligible. Patrick also resurrected a past idea to impose the state's 6.25 percent sales tax on candy and soda, generating $61.5 million for public health services.

This is the dumbest source of revenue on the planet. It is always decreasing revenue unless they encourage smoking.

This is one state… what is going to happen to the rest of the country as they try to implement this… It’s a total crapshoot but I will bet that people will die as a direct result. It may not be intentional or expected how it happens but it will happen.

The budget also cuts $1.5 million, or 24 percent, from a $6.3 million program to provide free or subsidized meals to elderly people at local councils on aging, eliminating 240,000 lunches, the administration said.
Or in some cases people may be just a bit hungrier…

It is a huge risk and to not understand why people oppose such a huge change is just plain ignorant.
 whiskeypapa
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 498
view profile
History
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 1:24:57 PM
You are all still thinking within the box.
Get rid of the insurance companies. Get universal healthcare and make sure the people controlling the system do not play in the market with any excess funds. Excess funds have to be returned or put back into infrastructure.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 499
view profile
History
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 2:32:04 PM

It is a huge risk and to not understand why people oppose such a huge change is just plain ignorant.
Again implying that just because people don't agree with the logic presented in your post ... they are displaying ignorance?

So the way to go is to quote all the "nay-sayers" as if they know it all ... and just label all those who want it and need it and are willing to join in as "ignorant". Ya, that makes sense.

Between 18,000 and 44,800 deaths occur annually due to lack of health insurance. Like I said, they have theirs, so who cares about the others? Just let 'em die ... which is happening. As you can see, they are truly willing to let us die! They really just don't care!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States
A 2004 Institute of Medicine (IOM) report said: "The United States is among the few industrialized nations in the world that does not guarantee access to health care for its population." A 2004 OECD report said: "With the exception of Mexico, Turkey, and the United States, all OECD countries had achieved universal or near-universal (at least 98.4% insured) coverage of their populations by 1990. The 2004 IOM report observed "lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." while a 2009 Harvard study estimated that 44,800 excess deaths occurred annually due to lack of health insurance.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 500
view profile
History
Obama is an utter failure.
Posted: 7/1/2012 3:00:28 PM
The 2004 IOM report observed "lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." while a 2009 Harvard study estimated that 44,800 excess deaths occurred annually due to lack of health insurance


Yes, you don't seem to grasp reality it seems. First off... One study says 18 THOUSAND. Another says 44 THOUSAND. So that is .005% or .014% of the population. In 2011 there were just over 32000 deaths from car accidents (http://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/statistics.html). Yes, it is a tragedy that even one occurs. At what % does it become a national emergency? At what % does it necessatiate the overhaluing of the economic system. Your reports don't support much actually. It actually says that at worst 99.995% of people will not die because of our current health coverage.

It is compulsory that the new healtcare laws and mandates improve on this number. That doesn't mean you get to shift the numbers around... like lets say that these 44 thousand people now all the sudden die of smoking because cigarettes are not taxed high enough... You must actually save those 44 thousand lives or its all BS.

Kind of interesting that the same amount of people die from the care they recieved http://www.leanblog.org/2009/08/statistics-on-healthcare-quality-and/

It just isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
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