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| | When to tell your date that you have a FWB?Page 29 of 34 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34) |
If someone asked me if I was in a Relationship, but I went on a 1st date the other night, I wouldn't be weaseling my way out of anything by saying "No".
If someone asked me if I was in a Relationship, but I have a friend of the opp-sex who I'm attracted to, I wouldn't be weaseling my out of anything by saying "No" -- because that's not what they're asking!
What if they were to pose the question slightly differently, by changing a few letters around?
For example, let's say that instead of asking you, "Are you in a relationship with anyone else?", they asked you, "Are you having relations with anyone else?"
If you were to answer "No" to that question, you would be flat out lying. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/30/2011 6:52:52 PM | If.....If........If.......
sure are alot of "Ifs" in this thread!
"If" your only defense is an "If".....you are grasping for straws to make a point. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/30/2011 7:03:47 PM | | What would really complicate matters is if a person starts dating Mr/Miss Potential and the female in the FWB arrangement becomes pregnant. The FWB would then become much more than just a FWB. Say bye-bye to finding Mr./Miss Perfect. Same thing if the FWB gets someone else pregnant or becomes pregnant with another FWB. | |
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SC67
| | Joined: 6/21/2009
Msg: 704 | |
| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/30/2011 7:10:44 PM | It has little to do with the topic, but we will never agree on exactly what consitutes a FWB relationship. People who want something totally different often offer a FWB since they know what they really want doesn't sound very appealing when they say it out loud. A rose by any other name is still a rose, but a FWB relationship is determined by the people who are in it so it really can be anything from casual dating to little more than a ONS with a repeat here & there. It sounds like OP would like more than FWB so the purists would say this isn't really a "true FWB" situation anyway.
I think we have, for the most part, agreed that the OP should not allow potential suitors to spend time and $$$ on her while she continues the benefits portion of her friendship. I think this is especially true if she becomes intimate with someone she meets. I suspect there will be a bit of overlap of intimacy as she's figuring out things & it's so easy to go back to someone you're comfortable with due to a long relationship...whether it be FWB or a real romantic relationship. I'm sure some will disagree since some will disagree about every damn thing, but OP should really break off the FWB & focus on meeting someone new...if that's what she REALLY wants.
She should definitely be going dutch on her first meets & dates if she's having sex with someone else...haha | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/30/2011 7:11:42 PM | ^^^Maleman^^^^^..... AND? If the world blew up tomorrow, it wouldn't matter either!
Rarely is ANY relationship 100%....so what? the best we can do is communicate and not assume. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/30/2011 7:27:08 PM |
If.....If........If.......
sure are alot of "Ifs" in this thread!
"If" your only defense is an "If".....you are grasping for straws to make a point.
Then you should tell that to your fellow FWB advocates when they decided to change the thread topic from "When to tell your date that you have a FWB?" to "If you should tell your date that you have a FWB?"
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/30/2011 8:05:28 PM | Why?
IF a person wants to tell....they can
IF a person doesn't want to tell......they don't
It is their choice, and the choice of the person they are dating to accept that decision....or not.
Many are of the thought that their personal sex life isn't the business of someone that are only dating....and isn't relevant until sex comes into the equation.....if then.
Amazingly enough...this discussion has never come up in my real life, I only see it here.
My guy and I have never once asked each other about who or when.....not our business. We have discussed sexual acts we have enjoyed or not enjoyed, fantasies we would like to live out and our expectations of our sex life.
Why would I need to know the last time he had sex before he was "exclusive" with me? I just don't get it. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/31/2011 6:28:35 AM |
Then you should tell that to your fellow FWB advocates when they decided to change the thread topic from "When to tell your date that you have a FWB?" to "If you should tell your date that you have a FWB?"
And those who are wickedly opposed to the whole FWB thing should post disclaimers right up front (either on their foreheads or in their profiles, whichever makes them feel the most "honest") clearly stating, "If you are in a relationship OR having relations, you and I would NOT be a good fit." (The reality is? If you, yes you personally, are an active dater ~ meaning you are dating with the intention of meeting someone special or the "one" or the over-used-cliche "soul-mate" ~ you've VERY likely met someone who is having sex with someone else. You'd likely not have a clue to that fact, nor would it be your business until it's determined by BOTH parties there is a reason for you to know ~ unless you tell them prior to meeting them that doesn't work for you. This boils down to what YOU feel is honest. Do you disclose this attitude before a first meet/date? I seriously doubt it ~ but if you do? Then you should have no interest in this topic. If you don't? Then your opinions here would be hypocritical.) ***And I'm not an "advocate" for FWBs, I'm simply a realist on the topic.
Amazingly enough...this discussion has never come up in my real life, I only see it here.
Nor have I. Not one person has ever even mentioned the words "friends with benefits" or the acronym "FWB" to me.
My guy and I have never once asked each other about who or when.....not our business. We have discussed sexual acts we have enjoyed or not enjoyed, fantasies we would like to live out and our expectations of our sex life.
Why would I need to know the last time he had sex before he was "exclusive" with me? I just don't get it.
Nor do I. And I have noticed that many of the posters who think disclosure upon meeting is the way to go, are some of the very same posters who claim that they do not, will not and find it nasty to discuss sex prior to meeting someone or early on in a new dating situation. The question I want to ask those people? "How on earth to you expect someone to be honest about their sex life if you aren't willing to discuss sex???" (Hence? Why I just do not get it!) To each their own.  | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/31/2011 7:15:16 AM |
(CR) A FWB isn't a dating situation, and not a bf/gf, and not a Relationship.
The only honest answer, then, would be, "No, I'm not in a relationship, but I *DO* have a FwB.", since a FwB is not a "Relationship", according to you, but you kn0w very well why the person is asking about a relationship, i.e. to determine if you are emotionally and physically available, and not likely to introduce the drama of an extraneous sexual relationship into what they (rightly) perceive to be a fairly exclusive arrangement, even if they haven't overtly stated it. In the same way that one rightly assumes that the new car he/she buys will include a motor, even if the salesman never explicitly states it (please don't go off and tell me that a FwB is not a "car", but a "family van"... )
If someone asked me if I was in a Relationship, but I have a friend of the opp-sex who I'm attracted to, I wouldn't be weaseling my out of anything by saying "No" -- because that's not what they're asking! They can't go "Oh, you're just playing games with me because you DO have a relationship -- you have friends, even ones of the opposite sex, and family members. You are sooo shady!"
If someone had performed the mental acrobatics necessary to convince themselves that a FwB was not a "Relationship", and therefore felt no need to disclose it, they would be shadier than a Weeping Willow.
Arlo... | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/31/2011 7:22:00 AM |
(MsMicki) Why?
IF a person wants to tell....they can
IF a person doesn't want to tell......they don't
It is their choice, and the choice of the person they are dating to accept that decision....or not.
The person whom they are dating can only make an *INFORMED DECISION* to date the Possessor of the FwB, if he/she is given that information. Otherwise, they are being asked to make a decision *WITHOUT* complete information. The people defending having a FwB and not disclosinig it, don't seem to understand that not informing the other person of this rather important information, is lying by omission.
If FwB is no big deal, why the hesitation to disclose it right away? Some people say it's no big deal, but their actions show that they realize that it is.
Arlo... | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/31/2011 8:43:26 AM |
And those who are wickedly opposed to the whole FWB thing should post disclaimers right up front (either on their foreheads or in their profiles, whichever makes them feel the most "honest") clearly stating, "If you are in a relationship OR having relations, you and I would NOT be a good fit." (The reality is? If you, yes you personally, are an active dater ~ meaning you are dating with the intention of meeting someone special or the "one" or the over-used-cliche "soul-mate" ~ you've VERY likely met someone who is having sex with someone else. You'd likely not have a clue to that fact, nor would it be your business until it's determined by BOTH parties there is a reason for you to know ~ unless you tell them prior to meeting them that doesn't work for you. This boils down to what YOU feel is honest. Do you disclose this attitude before a first meet/date? I seriously doubt it ~ but if you do? Then you should have no interest in this topic. If you don't? Then your opinions here would be hypocritical.) ***And I'm not an "advocate" for FWBs, I'm simply a realist on the topic.
This is somewhat the crux of the matter. I agree with VGE on this. If you are about disclosure, make it clear before meeting (in the profile) or when interaction begins (introductory conversation) that this is a rule you live by. If you feel it's important to know this right away, point that out. I know a lot here feel like this should be a given, but many people just don't talk about stuff like this in the beginning nor would they know it mattered unless made clear.
I also agree that very seldom do you meet someone and start dating them who doesn't have some sort of arrangement going. That overlap between the first couple dates you have and whatever they have going on happens a lot more than most think - it just isn't discussed. And since you are both still deciding you want to continue dating and haven't yet made a decision to date seriously - none of that is the business of the other. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/31/2011 8:51:47 AM | (VGE) And those who are wickedly opposed to the whole FWB thing should post disclaimers right up front (either on their foreheads or in their profiles, whichever makes them feel the most "honest") clearly stating, "If you are in a relationship OR having relations, you and I would NOT be a good fit."
And, who are these people, and where are they? I'm pretty perceptive, and I haven't seen ANYONE "wickedly opposed" to FwBs. I've seen people like myself who say that FwB is not their cuppa, but whatever floats your boat... so, where are all these witch-burning Puritans? How is calling a FwB what it is (a one-sided relationship) indicative of being "wickedly opposed"?
It's the timeframe of the FwB relationship that's problematical, not the act itself.
Arlo... 
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 12/31/2011 9:58:35 AM | For example, let's say that instead of asking you, "Are you in a relationship with anyone else?", they asked you, "Are you having relations with anyone else?" If you were to answer "No" to that question, you would be flat out lying.
By what you quoted of mine, having a date a night or two before or having an opp-sex friend in which there is (mere) attraction, saying No would not be lying. I would assume "relations" would mean sexual relations, ie "Are you sleeping with someone right now?". A FWB, if they're actively sleeping with them, would of course deserve a Yes. But of course, remember, this thread isn't about answering a question, it's about making a pre-emptive announcement, as some people in this forum (a higher % than IRL) assume it's nothing that should be asked by the other party, but treated the same as if someone had a girlfriend/boyfriend or still entangled with an ex, etc. -- an announcement is allegedly needed.
The only honest answer, then, would be, "No, I'm not in a relationship, but I *DO* have a FwB."
I wouldn't say that, unless one were very actively involved & entangled with the FWB (or whatever label they may give). Some people just want to know if you're Taken, or actively/frequently involved with someone. There's a big difference with a lot of people, between pretty much Taken VS not at all being Taken but having options when you're SINGLE. You don't have to be celibate to be SINGLE -- that's not assumed... nor is it assumed that if you're not celibate, it has to be random hook-ups to be 100% Single.
you kn0w very well why the person is asking about a relationship, i.e. to determine if you are emotionally and physically available, and not likely to introduce the drama of an extraneous sexual relationship into what they (rightly) perceive to be a fairly exclusive arrangement
I wouldn't assume the question alone assumes that the person wants to be in an exclusive arrangement -- they just wouldn't want to even be in a pre-exclusive date situation with someone who brings drama to the table (more specifically, being more or less Taken). You don't have to be in a guaranteed 100% celibate situation for some quite time before, during, and well after the Date in order to be emotionally & physically available. I think one's personal life, on a 1st Date, is not the other person's business in details of things... but yes, to know if they're pretty much "Taken" and if they're truly Available to go down dating alley -- that I do agree. And someone can have a particular FWB where they are not. And they can have a FWB where they are 100% available -- even more available than some who don't. A FWB, even though it may bring thoughts of high entanglement & drama to one's mind, doesn't mean other people have any emotional entanglement with their friend just because there are optional benefits had here and there.
If someone had performed the mental acrobatics necessary to convince themselves that a FwB was not a "Relationship"
It takes no mental acrobatics to realize that a FB & a FWB are two separate situations, and a Relationship and a FWB are two very separate situations.
Amazingly enough...this discussion has never come up in my real life, I only see it here.
Neither have I. It's one of the topics, IRL, if I generate questions/discussion about the topic people look at me like it's a no-brainer answer despite a lot of people in a forum thread saying otherwise. Why would you have to announce that you have a friend in which some benefits are being had, while you're still Single before & after the date, if you're not nor ever will date that friend? And no, Exclusivity isn't assumed just because you had a Date.
The problem is some people Expect, if going out on a Date with someone, for them to have been 100% celibate and not be in touch/cahoots with anyone who's more than a friend -- and if they are, THEY have to announce it, because it's THE way most Expect. The real disagreement is on what's Expected out of the gates and what's not. I also think people assume a FWB is automatically a serious, serious bag of drama & entanglement -- which IF it is, I can see one's point much clearer. But I don't see a FWB, merely in and of itself, being that at all. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/1/2012 8:52:16 AM |
And those who are wickedly opposed to the whole FWB thing should post disclaimers right up front (either on their foreheads or in their profiles, whichever makes them feel the most "honest") clearly stating, "If you are in a relationship OR having relations, you and I would NOT be a good fit." (The reality is? If you, yes you personally, are an active dater ~ meaning you are dating with the intention of meeting someone special or the "one" or the over-used-cliche "soul-mate" ~ you've VERY likely met someone who is having sex with someone else. You'd likely not have a clue to that fact, nor would it be your business until it's determined by BOTH parties there is a reason for you to know ~ unless you tell them prior to meeting them that doesn't work for you. This boils down to what YOU feel is honest. Do you disclose this attitude before a first meet/date? I seriously doubt it ~ but if you do? Then you should have no interest in this topic. If you don't? Then your opinions here would be hypocritical.) ***And I'm not an "advocate" for FWBs, I'm simply a realist on the topic.
Oh I wish I would have said this
 But I am glad somebody did...I have noticed many people in this thread who seem totally opposed to FWB or at least opposed to being with somebody who has been in a FWB prior to meeting them. And the consensus seems to be that they say WE should be up front with them about FWB-and if we were they wouldn't be interested in us anyway.
But like VGE said it does work both ways, should you not be just as up front about how you feel about people who are in a FWB before you meet us...Save us the time of meeting you and thus being "rejected" by you when and if we decide to be honest about something that may have overlapped.
But then, if you were totally honest about your feelings it would limit your dating pool? Perhaps that is what stops you from being completely up front before somebody meets you. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/1/2012 8:59:37 AM | (AT) The only honest answer, then, would be, "No, I'm not in a relationship, but I *DO* have a FwB." (CR) I wouldn't say that...
Of course you wouldn't.
You either don't get it, or you're just PRETENDING not to get it. Either way, a waste of electrons trying to explain it to you...
(CandyLookin4Luv) somebody who has been in a FWB prior to meeting them...
... people who are in a FWB before you meet us...
Two different concepts. Was in a FwB implies past, and further implies that it's over; the second implies people who are in FwBs right now.
Arlo... | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/1/2012 10:04:01 AM |
The next person I see who "hates" FwB relationships, will be my first.
Nobody is coming out and explicitly using the word "hate"-but over time in these forums, I've seen plenty of people use less-than-charitable language when discussing the FwB concept or those who do not CONDEMN FwB involvements,out of hand.
I have seen topics where posters suggested the prevalance/ easy availability of FwBs(which THIS thread seems to dispute!) as the main reason why so many "good girls" and "nice women" couldn't get a date if they rode a tornado thru a calendar factory. (Speaking of dates and calendars-Happy New Year,everybody. God save all here except the cat.)
BUT- the topic here is WHEN to tell a dating interest about the FwB you have.
I cannot personally give an answer to that specific circumstance. Its' never occurred in my life that I juggled a "FwB" AND a "dating towards LTR" endeavor. And probably never will.
I can (to some extent) understand someone of either gender who feels that they should hang on to a FwB until they are reasonably certain that the dating involvement is going to be a real deal LTR. I can't support or encourage it-because IMHO-its' creating a huge opportunity to shoot oneself in the foot. My policy has always been that the FwB is over(if I happen to have on at the time) when I find a mutual interest with someone that feels like it could go long-term. If that doesn't work out, then its' back to the drawing board...I've never felt like doing a re-run with an ex or a formr FwB. This is not to say that there is something bad or wrong if 2 people do resume a FwB-but acknowledge that this practice may create an "escape hatch" mentality in some people.
As far as actually answering the OPs question, there seem to be 2 or 3 strong schools of thought forming here.
I don't think I need to summarize them.
To speak directly to the OP, I would say that she needs to trust her heart, gut and instincts,and be willing to accept the consequences and/or rewards of whatever course she choses to follow.
I have to make the observation that by and large, when it comes to sexual and/or romantic involvements, the prevailing attitude seems to be "one at a time", due to concerns about "overlap", "divided focus," "competition",etc ...except where the threat of "competiton" can be used as a cautionary tactic.
Overall, though, the sense I'm getting from this thread is that the OP can have either FwBs or dating for LTR, she can't have both and there can be no overlap or crossing over. Since she has admitted to having a FwB, she might as well resign herself to being stuck there. Therefore "when to tell about a FwB" becomes a moot point.
This is not MY personal take on the question of FwBs/dating for LTR, this is my take on what the thread is giving the OP as the answer to her question.
Cindy O | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/1/2012 12:55:56 PM |
Overall, though, the sense I'm getting from this thread is that the OP can have either FwBs or dating for LTR, she can't have both and there can be no overlap or crossing over. Since she has admitted to having a FwB, she might as well resign herself to being stuck there. Therefore "when to tell about a FwB" becomes a moot point.
And then, there's this recently started thread....
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts14914521.aspx
So it's obvious I have issues and I know I'll be labeled as a s**t but alls I gotta say is if a guy did the same thing he wouldn't be labeled as one so here goes
Long story short
Met a guy in July...had a FwB with him ongoing since then
Met a guy in aug & have a friends w Benefits going too only 2M into it he started telling me he loved me (he's actually engaged) so I don't buy that shit for one minute
Met a guy in nov have this thing going with him
Now am I an attention wh**e or what? I mean I love the attn from men... If one falls thru I immediTly call the other for attention.
So, clearly, some people do manage to maintain multiple FWBs and keep dating... | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/1/2012 3:23:39 PM |
So, clearly, some people do manage to maintain multiple FWBs and keep dating...
Speaking specifically to the topic of the thread referenced-what that poster has is 3 concurrent( or nearly so) FwBs. Everyone keeps insisting that dating is dating and FwBs is FwBs-and never the twain shall meet. So to bring that thread into this one is like bringing a flying broom to a horse auction-you can ride either one but that doesn't mean that a flying broom and a horse are the same thing.
Also note. that the OP in that topic posted because she is CONCERNED about he behavior-and to the credit of all those responding to that thread, they are trying to offer ideas and insights, not just a keyboard public stoning. (There may be hope for us forumites yet?)
Anyway, I don't think that anyone here has said that it is impossible to have a FwB and be dating one or more other people. Many have said they would not continue dating someone if they found out there was a FwB in the mix. Some seem to indicate that they expect confirmation that no one else is on a dating prospects' romantic /sexual social calendar on the first date.
What the OP in that other thread is doing is juggling multiple FwBs and thus far has managed to pull it off. But lets not miss the main point of her topic, she is concerned that this is not emotionally healthy behavior.
Cindy O | |
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SC67
| | Joined: 6/21/2009
Msg: 719 | |
| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/1/2012 4:47:46 PM | Everyone keeps insisting that dating is dating and FwBs is FwBs-and never the twain shall meet.
I thought the consensus was never the twain SHOULD meet. (unless you're in a situation like jco has described & in that case pretty much anything goes as long as there's full disclosure)
Meh...having 3 concurrent FWB...fairly easy to make happen if someone is interested in that type of thing. As I've said before...just being passive enough not to press for more and/or having a faulty picker can have you hooked up with a handful pretty much all the time. In my experience those guys are all pretty confident that they're the only ones asking you for that kind of thing.
Funny how that thread had everyone telling the girl she had low self-esteem & needed therapy. If it had been a guy saying the same thing it would've probably been a non-issue. I know...she was going on & on about how she thought it was a problem. Methinks she was advertising for FWB #4 since she posted in Ask A Guy. Or maybe it goes back to that old saying that I just love...it costs to be the boss...maybe she's a working girl looking to drum up some business. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/1/2012 7:23:45 PM | sorry hun, but put the date before a fwb. i refuse to date a woman thats getting some "on the side".
to quote the trailer park boys "thats greasy" | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/2/2012 12:02:37 AM | But like VGE said it does work both ways, should you not be just as up front about how you feel about people who are in a FWB before you meet us...Save us the time of meeting you and thus being "rejected" by you when and if we decide to be honest about something that may have overlapped.
I was up front about it. I put it right in my profile. On the other hand, the gist of this thread from the perspective of those who would date someone while having sex with someone else seems to be don't say anything unless asked, so if I had to do it all over again, I'd do it a little differently. I'd give women the opportunity to date me exclusively and if they declined, I'd just assume they had something going on the side and put them in the sex only/no relationship bin without saying anything, unless asked. Apparently, there's no ethical obligation to indicate intent or anything else, unless asked and I had no objections to casual sex.
But then, if you were totally honest about your feelings it would limit your dating pool?
It didn't seem to limit mine. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/2/2012 12:59:14 AM | My lover is history the moment I return to the dating pool. He fills an emotional void which could interfer with my actively seeking an SO.
If you're just meeting men from online to see if they are worth dating then it's really none of their business if you have a FWB. If you're dating, put yourself in the man you're dating shoes, at what point would you want to hear, he is having sex with another woman while dating you.
I tell my prospective parenter about my former lover, they have a right to know and most men would prefer their woman had one sex partner over 5 years, instead of a one a year. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/2/2012 7:04:14 AM | i have ended burgeoning dating situations when i found out she had a FWB she was still seeing.
thw defense "but you and i arent in a relationship yet"
is a specious and lame argument. any women i date i assume is not sleeping with anyone else concurrently.
i have no interest in sharing the swimming pool. | |
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| When to tell your date that you have a FWB?
Posted: 1/2/2012 9:39:58 AM | the defense "but you and i arent in a relationship yet" is a specious and lame argument. any women i date i assume is not sleeping with anyone else concurrently.
A lot of people, by just going out on a date or two or a bit more, does not taking it as a coupling, just because a date is had. And frankly, why should someone by default with no words spoken? Because you had a nice date and are going to see them again? By default, you're NOT exclusive at all -- you're just getting to know each other.
I don't think someone should be tightly entangled with anyone, and begin any dating process with someone, just because the person they're tightly entangled with is set not to become a boyfriend/girlfriend.
However, IMO, what's good to do and what's not good to do, when no words have been spoken between the two, depends on combo of two things:
- The level of entanglement you have with a particular person while you're setting up dates with new people
- The intent, setting, and intensity that exists when you go out on a Date or two or more with
Remember, just because your own enthusiasm and hopes are oh-so high about the person, doesn't mean that's equal to the expectations set -- part of it, or even all of it, can be in your own emotional mind. Thoughts & feelings of whisking away into the sunset and having a great relationship doesn't mean they're feeling that way and that's what you both expect to happen, just because they have some interest.
Want to get thru all the potential WTF? Post on your profile that you're looking to go Exclusive, in all situations, with a girl if/when a Date is set up with her. Most people don't assume to be Exclusive in the getting-to-know-ya phase of things. Hell, one woman I saw in a profile once said if you're emailing other women, don't bother writing me, I'm worth more than that. Hey, at least she put it up there that she wants to be not #1, but the Only one well before even meeting. People operate in different gears during the getting-to-know-ya phase, sometimes even starting at an initial message. Let it be known where you firmly stand. | |
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