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| | How Would You Fix CA?Page 11 of 26 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26) | I sure do see a lot of guessing games here. Perhaps we can agree that 1) There IS an illegal immigrant population , and 2) We don't know how many , or how much it costs us, and 3) How can we possibly draw any conclusion when we have no facts?
I feel like I'm looking up at a giant wooden beam supporting the roof of my house, and I can see termite activity, but I don't know how much damage there is, and I will never know for sure until 1) I start digging into the wood to actually expose and measure the damage, or 2) the roof collapses one day, and then I know empirically that there were indeed more termites than I thought. | |
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| How Would You Fix CA?
Posted: 1/31/2012 11:15:01 AM | Hey Rich.........
I have a distant cousin by marriage that works in administration in the junior high level in the valley. She has said many times that the majority of the students who are ESL, or English as a SEcond Language, never speak anything other than spanish in their classrooms, until they reach the 7th grade........................
Your house example is being held up only by the paint............ To second guess whether or not there is a problem is silly, besides, there is more than enough statistics and facts to show what illegals cost. To say that they are contributing, well, they are, but NOWHERE near what the cost that they bring with them. Education and medical costs are just two costs that have been shown to outspend way more than they contribute.
Companies that knowingly hire illegals need to be swatted, and hard. Those driving without a CDL need to be deported, and their vehicles impounded and sold, whether it was their vehicle or not.
We are the only country in the world that coddles those who enter our borders illegally, and that must stop.
Paul K | |
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| How Would You Fix CA?
Posted: 1/31/2012 11:23:29 AM | ^^^^^I don't know how anyone could know exactly how many of them there are. I do know that there's a minimum-security prison in Lancaster that at any one time houses about 4,000 illegal aliens who have been convicted of misdemeanors and are awaiting deportation. And when illegal aliens make up 30% of federal prisoners, there must be a lot of them in this country. The usual conservative estimate of 12-15 million would be about 4% of the national population.
I think the beam is already collapsing on California. Even as late as the 1970's, this state was the envy of the country in public schools, roads, hospitals, utilities, commerce, etc. One of the most damaging things has been the 1982 Supreme Court decision which said that states have to open their public schools to the children of illegal aliens. | |
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Posted: 1/31/2012 11:44:36 AM | matchlight, thanks for sharing that. I had no idea that the Supreme Court had made that ruling. How uneducated and uninformed can a court possibly have ever been?  | |
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Posted: 1/31/2012 1:23:08 PM | To conflate- To combine two things into a composite element
People intentionally or not so unintentionally combine the Legal Latinos (Mexican Americans,Puerto Ricans,etc.) into one category and then denounce them all as illegals.
"One of the most damaging things has been the 1982 Supreme Court decision which said that states have to open their public schools to the children of illegal aliens."
You're absolutely correct. keep them uneducated and create a permanent underclass. In one post, people complain that ilegal immigrants are uneducated , but without even a basic high school education for their children the problem would be much worse.
"We are the only country in the world that coddles those who enter our borders illegally, and that must stop."
This is a false staement.I agree we have a problem with illegal immigration but it is dead wrong to think we are the only nation on earth to have this problem. Europe is suffering from illegal African and Muslim immigrants who are desperate to escape from their poor countries. Illegal immigration in the UK is also prevalent and fraud cases in immigration are well published.
Just as a twist illegal Brazilian immigrants in the US are returning home in droves since the economy of Brazil has taken off. What an irony. | |
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| How Would You Fix CA?
Posted: 1/31/2012 2:36:10 PM | Plyler v. Doe was a 5-4 decision. It involved a claim that a Texas law that denied public education to the children of illegal aliens violated the 14th Amendment. Part of this amendment says that no state shall deny the equal protection of the laws to "any person within its jurisdiction." The Court held that the illegal aliens involved were persons within Texas' jurisdiction.
In equal protection cases, the Court only uses a "strict scrutiny" standard of review--which is very hard to meet--where a law either restricts a fundamental right (e.g. voting) or makes a "suspect classification" (e.g. by race). If not, a law can treat a group of people differently and still be constitutional, as long as it's rationally related to some legitimate government interest.
When the Court uses reviews a law using this "rational basis" standard, it's very unlikely to find it unconstitutional. That's because the Court normally hesitates to second-guess a legislature. If there's any way the lawmakers could have thought there was some legitimate reason for a law, the Court will normally defer to it.
A law that discriminates against illegal aliens doesn't make a suspect classification. And the Court's never even suggested that education is a fundamental right. Since neither of the factors needed to trigger strict scrutiny existed in Plyler, the rational basis standard should have applied. And supposedly, it did.
Not having to educate the children of illegal aliens certainly saves public money. And it would seem that saving public money is a legitimate interest of a state government. But somehow, the majority didn't see it that way. What it really did was fiddle the standard to make it just enough stricter that the Texas law didn't meet it, without admitting that's what it was doing.
There is a good enough chance this decision can be reversed that some of the cheerleaders for illegal immigration seem to be concerned about it.
<div class='quote'>People intentionally or not so unintentionally combine the Legal Latinos (Mexican Americans,Puerto Ricans,etc.) into one category and then denounce them all as illegals.
What people? I haven't seen anyone here do anything of the kind.
<div class='quote'>You're absolutely correct. keep them uneducated and create a permanent underclass.
I have a much better idea. Change the incorrect interpretation of the 14th Amendment's Citizenship Clause so that children of illegal aliens are not automatically U.S. citizens just by virtue of being born here. And overrule Plyler v. Doe while we're at it. No more anchor babies, no more destruction of the public education system, no more driving states into economic ruin. | |
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Posted: 1/31/2012 3:04:29 PM | ^^^I'll second that!
Until you are caught in the thick of it, or are willing to believe those of us who are, you simply cannot understand or comprehend how serious and deadly destructive the whole things has been and continues to be. I personally believe it is by far the single most damaging thing across the board there is concerning our State. | |
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Posted: 1/31/2012 3:46:53 PM | Take care of illegals 1st I think education and healthcare will more than likely fall into place eventually.
Next Legalize marijuana, tax the shyt out of it. Free up a few beds in county for the real criminals! Tackle prison reform while were at it.
Invest in mental health get a few more productive members of society off the streets.
Simple solutions for complex problems yet no one seems to be able to do anything about it!
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Posted: 1/31/2012 4:20:20 PM |
Simple solutions for complex problems yet no one seems to be able to do anything about it!
No, it's not that they are not able it's that they are not willing. Politicians (even conservatives) are way to concerned about their own job security. It's a political hotbed that none want to touch.
Same goes for legalization of marijuana. The majority (although changing) have been brainwashed that it's evil.
Any politician that goes there risks kissing their job goodbye. | |
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Posted: 1/31/2012 4:26:14 PM |
You're absolutely correct. keep them uneducated and create a permanent underclass. In one post, people complain that ilegal immigrants are uneducated , but without even a basic high school education for their children the problem would be much worse.
..well if they were not allowed to come here illegally in the first place than educating them would not be an issue.
My issue is not so much that some come here to get educated, work and live here for a better life it's that many come here with the intention of committing crimes against US citizens or simply to have anchor babies and mooch off the system. THE BORDERS MUST BE CLOSED 100%, anybody who comes here at the very least should be accounted for! | |
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Posted: 1/31/2012 6:45:28 PM | What really irritates me to no end beyond the illegal destruction is that the courts can shoot down legislation the majority votes for.
All drugs should be legalized along with gambling, prostitution and all other "vices" that in and of themselves are our right to pursue happiness as we desire. Only true criminal activity that directly violates the rights of someone else should be unlawful. Indirect things like second hand smoke and things that effect the environment need a much more reasonable approach than is currently being taken.
The .gov should do everything within it's power to protect our "way of life" from outside influence, especially dumbing down to a 3rd world nation, even if they are our neighbors because they refuse to do anything about their own .gov with our shining example and the way to accomplish it right in full view. That is precisely one of the reasons I have zero compassion for illegals from Mexico. | |
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| How Would You Fix CA?
Posted: 1/31/2012 7:23:27 PM | How to Stop Illegal Immgration with Mexico (and other undesirable Countries)
1) set up anti-personnel land mines on the US-Mexico border.
2) set up a national identity card for all US citizens with embeded microchip
3) Start street searches in large urban cities. For an example, use the Nazi SS/SD search model used in WWII. Stop anyone that looks "Latino",i.e.,brown skinned,Spanish speaking, or reading books in "other" languages.
4) Shoot "while trying to escape" large numbers of illegal immigrants (Latins.Muslims only)
5) Illegal Canadian immgrants to be given a stern talking to and sent back to Toronto.
If all these measures are carried out, I am completely convinced illegal immigration to the USof A will dwindle to nothing. | |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 3:15:33 AM | Probably the same people who are saying there are Chinese troops amassing at our southern border!!!
We are looking at our illegal problem and I acknowledge that it is a good sized problem.
We have enough people that are here LEGALLY that have their hand out waiting for our tax money. That's right....many more people who are here Legally and the state hands our money out because they can and because they can always tax us more to give even more of it away.
The same politicians then make our policies also chase businesses away with:
1. Crazy environmental laws that unreasonably overconstrains industry
2. Taxation practices that make it impossible to run a business here.
3. Lack of import tariffs to level the playing field, hence the corporations ship jobs overseas. (this is the HUGE one that has left a 2 trillion dollar hole in our pocket)
Illegals have been here for a long time.....prior to us tightening the borders they came and went as seasonal workers. With a tight border the workers stay and eventually bring their families in and this costs us money by paying for their chilren's education, medical etc.
It's time we smarten up. The Brasero program from the 60s worked but politicians are too busy pandering to their constituents either pro or con to make a smart decision.
If these folks can come and go like they used to, guess what? 2/3rds of the money being spent, stays in our pocket!!! Their families can stay in Mexico and it is a win-win.
my 2 cents | |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 11:36:24 AM | In the late '50's and '60's and on, Yugoslavia had a program very similar to the Brasero program. It worked like this. The head of household was allowed to go out of country to work, BUT his family had to stay in country and every so often had to physically show up to prove that they were still in country. The heads of household that went out worked 2 sometimes 3 jobs, lived in squalor, saved every last penny, and when they came back they brought farm equipment that they had bought, and money.
THAT was the reason that Yugoslavia was in much better shape than any of the other Soviet bloc countries.
Unfortunately, mexico would never agree to such a program, for two reasons...... first of all, they want their citizens to go to other countries with their families, so it relieves a bit of the stress on their systems, and second because it would work.
Paul K | |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 12:48:26 PM | | ^^^^^Shocking to find out that a wonderful Communist system like that created so little prosperity that its people had to go elsewhere to improve their situation. | |
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| How Would You Fix CA?
Posted: 2/1/2012 1:17:52 PM |
How to Stop Illegal Immgration with Mexico (and other undesirable Countries)
1) set up anti-personnel land mines on the US-Mexico border.
2) set up a national identity card for all US citizens with embeded microchip
3) Start street searches in large urban cities. For an example, use the Nazi SS/SD search model used in WWII. Stop anyone that looks "Latino",i.e.,brown skinned,Spanish speaking, or reading books in "other" languages.
4) Shoot "while trying to escape" large numbers of illegal immigrants (Latins.Muslims only)
5) Illegal Canadian immgrants to be given a stern talking to and sent back to Toronto.
If all these measures are carried out, I am completely convinced illegal immigration to the USof A will dwindle to nothing.
So you think spouting of the ridiculous will work in dispelling the way that it should be done, can be done and more than likely won't be done because of people on both sides that have a vested interest in the status quo?
It's not rocket science and no extreme measures need to be taken beyond how we deal with all other criminal activity. We have every right and reason to hunt these people down and use racial profiling to accomplish the goal without harassing anyone. Using their ability to carry on a descent conversation in English as a guide or a starting point, no one should be crying foul, although I know they will try to with their powerful lobbying group. We just need a leader that will stand strong and not cow under the "racist" and "bigot" as well as their many other accusations that would be sure to come once the mass deportations have begun. Just look at what Arizona has had to go through. No wonder Obama got the finger pointed right at him on the Tarmac. | |
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| How Would You Fix CA?
Posted: 2/1/2012 2:14:57 PM |
So you think spouting of the ridiculous will work
The poster's not about to make anyone forget Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal." That kind of baloney is so predictable and so common I can't help but laugh a little whenever I see it.
When these masterminds try to argue the substance of an issue, they're never very convincing. So all they have left is to engage in name-calling or other personal attacks, posture as morally superior, or make wild, nonsensical, appeals to emotion. It's part of being a so-called liberal these days. | |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 4:10:32 PM | 1,2 and 4 actually sound reasonable for any nation that respects its borders. Mexicans are the vast majority of illegals so, yeah of course they'd be the ones that got shot at the border for jumping the fence. Makes sense. Land mines make sense as well as some aerial drones along the southern border.
If someone sneaks across my fence at night uninvited they are gonna get shot, same should hold true even in sterner way for the illegals at the south NATIONAL border. Get into US legally if you are allowed to, and pay money to your new adopted country instead of siphoning it off back home to your shit hole third world country like Mexico is - I do, otherwise stay back at home and FIX YOUR country.
I didn't come LEGALLY to the US just to end up in another Mexico/third world dump which CA/the US is rapidly becoming due to the Mexican illegals - they don't even have enough respect to try and learn English! "Press 1 for English"!
The US is a sovereign country and as such should have absolute control over its borders. The only one that's making trouble is the one with Mexico, so we should just shut it tight as a first step. | |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 4:29:59 PM | | Physical violence, especially leading to death should always be a last resort and we should not shoot first unless we simply beat them to the punch or shot. Herman Cain did get ridiculed and in defense said it was a joke, but an electric fence with warnings in Spanish as well as English is not at all out of order, however, IMO. | |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 4:34:55 PM | | Sometimes only violence works. We've tried it without violence - the result? The border is just a joke, they keep pouring in, given medical aid at our expense, sent back, then back again. | |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 9:09:51 PM | | Then we need to go after the minority that keeps getting laws passed that the majority disagrees with and we need to make sure the congressmen and congresswomen as well as our State Senators are the ones that are willing to work on the borders quickly as well as to repeal the laws and legislation that is counter to our current immigration laws. | |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 5:36:54 AM | BTW, my last post was sarcastic in case of any doubt.
"Using their ability to carry on a descent conversation in English as a guide or a starting point, no one should be crying foul, although I know they will try to with their powerful lobbying group."
Uhmm, by the way, that should a "decent" conversation, not descent.
Luckily, I speak fair to passable English so I would pass this litmus test.
Face it gents, the illegal immigrants who are in this country and have some roots (family, jobs, what have you) are not likely to leave anytime soon. This may be a travesty to some, but it is not going to change anytime soon. Even if Romney wins, the legal challenges that would ensue if he tried to do anything radical would keep the status quo for the foreseeable future. | |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 7:38:51 AM | I think we're getting way from the topic on this one. The idea is how to fix California.
I was a little tongue in cheek there, and received the usual smarmy reponses I envisioned. Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: "reduction to the absurd") is a form of argument in which a proposition is disproven by following its implications logically to an absurd consequence. If we take the debate on illegal immigration to its logical extremes, the scenario I projected would seem logical to some, even though it is clearly absurd.
And even I will admit illegal immigration is ONE part of the problems of this once great state. And whining over past court decisions is laughable. "Gee, I think the Dred Scott decison should not have been overturned".
But let's be clear, even if every illegal immigrant left California tommorow, the problems that California faces will not disappear.
One of the big things happening lately is political district redistricting. Finally an indenpendent comission (five Democrats, five Republicans and 4 Independents) came up a with a logical redistricting plan. The stakes are high and in my neck of the woods (SB-SLO), Sate Senator Sam Blakeslee (R-SLO) won't run in the next elections. The GOP sued and the State Supreme Courty upheld the decision by a vote of 7-0. The article points out that registered Republicans are down to 30.4% of the electorate, with Democrats at 43.6% and Independents at 21.2%.
Here's a link to the article for those interested.
>>http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-cap-redistricting-20120202,0,4254194.column?page=1<< | |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 8:19:42 AM |
.."but an electric fence with warnings in Spanish as well as English is not at all out of order, however, IMO."
Are you sure English is needed on the sign? I don't think a lot of American citizens will be jumping over the fence from the Mexican side.
Kidding aside, it's outrageous that we simply can't build a fence that somebody cant climb over. I know that one of the excuses of not completing it was the problem in Texas where they had the stupid old agreement with Mexico that the fence could not be put in certain areas on the Mexican side so they had to run it so that some US property was behind the fence.
I say so what. The very few sometimes must suffer for the greater good of the country as a whole. I say get the thing built now! Wasting billions in sewer countries like Afghanistan for no reason, and then the excuse is not enough money for the fence. It all goes back to the fear of politicians worrying about their job.
Anyway who cares about the illegals and the damage they do to the economy as long as the stock market keeps on going up. Right? | |
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