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 pauline2012
Joined: 11/28/2011
Msg: 51
Guns in private hands ?Page 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
I think the concern is partly that there were issues raised with the police in 2008 over an incident where police were called due to reports that he was going to self harm.

Now I know not everyone who is possibly suffering from depression may end up harming themselves or anyone else. But if someone is given a gun licence surely some follow up checks need to be made if there have been concerns raised that might deem someone a potential risk.

But I agree, if he hadn't had a gun it could have been another weapon.
 mackem
Joined: 8/7/2006
Msg: 52
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/3/2012 6:57:22 AM
From what Ive heard...the incident in 2008 was checked out by the police,hence the record.It appears that it was one person saying he had said it and him saying he had never said it...

Dont get me wrong I hate the thoughts of people having guns in houses but at least these were registered whereas I bet there are thousands of homes that have them which arnt registered
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 53
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/3/2012 6:59:45 AM

im very happy for people to be able to defend themselves if a burglar breaks into there home or defend themselves from attack by muggers or chavs.but not go out into the street and shoot somone with a gun just because he owns a gun license.


You seem not to know what a vigilante is. It is someone who takes the law into their own hands when the legal authorities are absent. The law allows the use of force to defend property and/or the person.

I wouldn't have any problem with a gun-owner putting a bullet through someone like Moat if he was preventing further bloodshed.

You failed to explain why you consider a gun-owner more dangerous than a criminal.
 chillicat
Joined: 11/27/2011
Msg: 54
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/3/2012 7:30:03 AM

You failed to explain why you consider a gun-owner more dangerous than a criminal


i said a gun owner who thinks he is above the law.if somone who owns a gun like gamekeepers do and thinks he has the right to shoot somone.when by law he hasnt got the right.then he would be more dangerous than a criminal.because in his head he thinks he has the right to do so. then he might shoot some fecker and murder him.and by law.he hasnt any right what so ever to shoot anyone.especialy out on the street.a criminal knows it is wrong to shoot somone dead.and when he does.he knows he will go down for life if caught.but a bloke who thinks he has the right to shoot somone because he owns a license.then he is going to be more dangerous in my opinion because he thinks he might get a medal from the queen instead of a life sentence for murder.
 pauline2012
Joined: 11/28/2011
Msg: 55
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/3/2012 9:39:42 AM
Apparently his guns were taken off him in 2008 due to the concern about him self harming.
 mackem
Joined: 8/7/2006
Msg: 56
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/3/2012 10:39:04 AM
Durham Police confirmed that the weapons were taken from Mr Atherton's house as a precaution, but as he insisted there had been no threat to harm himself, the weapons were returned. That decision followed national procedure, a force spokesman said. "It was one person's word against another," he said.

"If there was no grounds for applying for the revocation of a firearms licence the guns would be returned to the firearms licence holder."


Seems as if its std proceedure to have the guns removed.
 pauline2012
Joined: 11/28/2011
Msg: 57
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/3/2012 11:05:41 AM
Ive just read an article saying that they were taken from him but returned to him following a police assessment

It goes back to the old question though doesn't it, if you are suicidal why do you need to wipe out the rest of your family

Tragic and absolutely tragic for the girl who escaped and apparently there were 2 other survivors found in the house.

Some things you just cannot make sense of at all.
 mackem
Joined: 8/7/2006
Msg: 58
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/3/2012 11:14:06 AM
When I first saw it on teletxt yesterday my initial reaction was "these things dont happen in Horden"....but unfortunately they can happen anywhere....Id spent my first Christmas in Horden in nearly 30 yrs last week....

It was brought home last night when I got a txt from a family member saying that her friend had lost her Mum,sister and aunty...

Still finding it difficult to comprehend it all
 Gesticulate
Joined: 10/21/2011
Msg: 59
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/3/2012 12:08:00 PM

so your argument is fatuous in the extreme.


No it is a comparison..

I worked on ch1 TOA for many years in Birmingham, I had a driver stabbed to death whilst on a call, 99% of cabbies do carry protection...

Seems the only people who should be scared of someone owning a gun is those who have something to be scared of ..

Target practice is a great sport, not all of us who own a gun kill animals you know, however if I found someone in my house who was armed and had intent I would shoot without hesitation ..
My house, my rules, suck it up...
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 60
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/4/2012 4:25:25 AM
In some ways, I feel that the people who have an interest in owning weapons, and specifically guns, are probably the people who I would least wish to have them.
(If that makes sense...?)

So I would prefer that no-one has them.
I wouldn't want to live in a country like the USA., with their gun laws.

As far as "protecting my property" goes; I would ask what "price" is a human life..?
If someone steals/attempts to steal, my DVD player, I can buy another for £25.
I think I'd take the same view, regardless of "value", and my anger.
If I'd had a gun, there may have been times when I might have used it, and regretted it later.

That's why I don't think they should be in anyone's home, other than in exceptional circumstances.
I'm capable of defending myself without a gun, and have done so, in the past.

Killing/ shooting someone to protect property, seems little different to me, to killing/shooting someone to obtain property.

Guns make killing people too easy.
I spent a bit of time in the USA., and it didn't even make the front pages anymore.
JMO

 SailorSam63
Joined: 11/25/2011
Msg: 61
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/4/2012 1:04:37 PM

You seem not to know what a vigilante is. It is someone who takes the law into their own hands when the legal authorities are absent. The law allows the use of force to defend property and/or the person.

I wouldn't have any problem with a gun-owner putting a bullet through someone like Moat if he was preventing further bloodshed.

You failed to explain why you consider a gun-owner more dangerous than a criminal.


At least zeegary has grasped what I was driving at! I didn't mean I would be running round the streets like a modern day Arnie, but IF I had spotted a Raol Moat type miscreant shooting innocent men, women and children willy-nilly, I would not hesitate at putting him on the receiving end of an ounce of lead doing Mach 2. In this country, owning a gun is a privalage not a right. As somebody quite rightly said previously, guns don't kill people, people kill people!
 Vortices
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 62
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/4/2012 1:22:45 PM
mach 2 haha,seriously wow for pest control.so having a gun to shoot game gives you the right to take out criminals eh,i think jovans first sentence makes more sense now.
 pauline2012
Joined: 11/28/2011
Msg: 63
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/4/2012 1:26:34 PM
The thing is. Its like anything. You will have people who have guns for extreme cases if there was provocation and they needed to use it.

Then you have people who have them for shooting game and then flip and wipe out their family.

My view is if there was a red flag about this man and the possibility of him harming himself or anyone else and there was in 2008, if those guns were removed for him for that reason, they should not have been given back to him.

There should be monitoring and yes you can't monitor every single person and know what's going on in their head at all times and know their risk to other people.

But there were enough concerns about this man for his guns to be removed. Now 4 people are dead.
 SailorSam63
Joined: 11/25/2011
Msg: 64
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/4/2012 1:51:02 PM

mach 2 haha,seriously wow for pest control.so having a gun to shoot game gives you the right to take out criminals eh,i think jovans first sentence makes more sense now.


No, having a gun does NOT give me the right to take out any human being UNLESS they are doing harm to other humans, in which case I would not hesitate in killing 1 to save 4 or 5.
It would make no difference if I had a gun or a baseball bat in my hand, if I saw one person doing harm to another less able person, I would do my civic duty and take that mutha down!
 Vortices
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 65
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/4/2012 2:06:35 PM
and being a "responsible" gun owner and posting on an open forum that you would kill someone if you felt it was your civic duty is laughable.

What are the chances of that eh,looking out of my window and seeing some nutter or responsible licensed gun owner or both,shooting a child.?..
Have a look at your paperwork,where it says being ex forces allows you to shoot people,
if you feel the need in a public place,?....
 SailorSam63
Joined: 11/25/2011
Msg: 66
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 1/4/2012 2:13:53 PM

So you would stand by and watch some nutter shoot a child would you? Very commendable and civic minded of you.

Being responsible means knowing how to use a gun, when to use a gun and to use it safely. I think military firearms training qualifies me as "responsible"..............
 HeathV2012
Joined: 10/11/2010
Msg: 67
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 4:24:40 AM
I don't believe in keeping arms from civilians an armed person has a way to level the playing field. There have been many cases of accidental shooting and other such things yes but also many cases where people who wouldn't have been able to defend themselves survived because of a gun. I read a lot of things about the use of guns in self defense cases. I live in America and im not sure how well the laws work in other countries but with our bad border security bans on private gun ownership would be as fruitful as our war on drugs. Many guns go to Mexico and Drugs come here but if a ban were to be placed on us this would quickly create a back flow right into the hands of criminals. Regardless in this country a ban would do little good disarming anyone but legal gun owners. Locks only do so much my house is locked many of my guns are as well but someone determined enough could still get them. You may say all the more reason to get rid of private ownership but well there are also cases of cops having their guns stolen from their homes and cars. I own many guns as do my friends and relatives out of all the guns in this city shootings are limited and mainly only occur between gang members but stabbings are far more common. Im glad we still have the right to keep tools for our protection. In the end police aren't going to be there to do anything more than clean up the mess. You are responsible for the protection of you and your family.

The History of Gun Control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pKasF6l3y0

The Truth About the Right to Carry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNUqtkXTQ8
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 68
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 4:48:32 AM
[
Im glad we still have the right to keep tools for our protection.

Ironic that you should 'bump' this on a day when there's been yet another mass shooting, at a college in the USA. A "Christian" College, at that.
It's good to see "proof" that "religion is the source of our morality".

My answer is "No thanks", I prefer our laws to yours.
I hope you follow the gun laws more strictly than you follow the forum rules.

 OneOnOwn
Joined: 1/1/2012
Msg: 69
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 4:57:32 AM
There are more people killed by cars in the UK than by guns.
I held a small bore target shooting rifle and hand gun. I belonged to a club but it only took one incident with a nutter to clamp like hell on us. The number killed during the incident was the same as the recent M5 crash .
The club virtually collapsed as a result of people panicing.
I didn't notice all and sundry getting rid of their cars after the M5 crash though.
I can legitiately buy 15 gallons of high explosive material with no questions. Set off properly it has one hell of an explosive effect. Its called PETROL.

In the UK we have a right to own a gun. Police do checks and there must be a reasonable reason like vermin control or member of an authorised shooting club . I have instructors qualifications and I can assure you that safety precautions were strict.

Panic causes many stupid reactions. Pistols were banned and bought back for destruction by the Govt. But as anyone knows most people couldn't hit a barn door at 25 yards with a pistol. On the other hand a shotgun has a splatter pattern. Controls were much more severe with rifles than shotguns and now ownership of target rifles is limited to single shot.

What most people don't realise is that many guns in circulation illegally are a result of the way licences are managed. The legal owner of a gun may die and no check will be made until the licence is up for renewal. So house clearance is an easy way to obtain them.

When Russia changed direction al sorts of stuff went missing. Allowing Eastern Block to enter the UK brought with it the ''stolen'' armnaments.

Once again we have an incident where a nutter loses control but thankfully they are few and far between. I suppose there will be more gun controls again which only mean legitimate holders will driven underground. Similar to those who dont insure cars because its cheaper than the fine.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 70
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 5:20:36 AM
"Small bore" eh....?


Once again we have an incident where a nutter loses control but thankfully they are few and far between. I suppose there will be more gun controls again which only mean legitimate holders will driven underground.


First of all, if they're "driven underground", then they won't be "legitimate holders" will they...?
And secondly, it's funny how all these supposed "few and far between" incidents have been "nutters" who were also licensed gun holders.

As I said earlier in the thread, the fact that people WANT them alone, should be cause for concern IMO.
All the people arguing FOR guns, seem to be very angry, and opinionated individuals.
They all seem to say that they'd happily shoot someone, if the situation arose, (reading back through the thread, and having seen similar discussions, on other forums)
I think the authorities should carefully check through all of the forum postings, of anyone applying for a license...

 OneOnOwn
Joined: 1/1/2012
Msg: 71
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 5:43:36 AM
And maybe the authorities should also check the forums for anyone applying for a licence to own a car or drive a petrol tanker .
Why shouldn't anyone want to own what they want legally just because a few can't obey the rules.
Check the incidence of the number of murders by people actually known to the victim.
Does that mean we should ban relationships or knowing people.
Society runs on rules which are either imposed by the authorities or self imposed by the individuals.
Its similar to some other crimes in the UK. Police are fully aware and prefer to know if drugs or prostitution is running in one particular area. If guns are licenced and the owners have legitimate purposes for ownership then licences are issued and checks taken.
I am absolutely sure that if ALL controls on everything were imposed in the UK that I could look at your car and find something you could be fined on or there would certainly be some infringement in your own home.
By the way I know nutters who drive cars who are fully licenced but I would't allow them to be on the road if it was me.
Its knife crime that worries me. Stanley blades that disfigure. Small enough to be concealed etc. Maybe we should ban the sale of anything sharp that can be used in the kitchen as well or licence it. Or screwdrivers... or... or ...or.
 Cassiej11
Joined: 11/16/2011
Msg: 72
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 6:55:22 AM
"it all depends on the person behind the gun i guess and their mentality. Put a hunting rifle in my hands and a pistol into young drug dealers hands and who is the most dangerous? well potentially its me because i can put a bullet through a rabbits head from over a field away with a good telescopic sight, but of course its something i would never do "

msg 21. No, the most dangerous is the young drug dealer who is likely to use the weapon in panic and shoot indiscriminately! I have lived in a place where the local youths were able to obtain such guns, and where the local residents stayed inside their homes after dark. That was some years ago, and I worked alongside youth workers at the time and having spoken to these youths, know that they fully expected that their future was to either end up in prison or to be dead. So these are definitely the most dangerous.
Nothing to do with licenced gun owners, all to do with the attitude and ability to get hold of illegal guns. Much the same as hunting knives and maschetes. Illegal to carry an offensive weapon, but it doesn't stop them.
 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 73
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 7:13:57 AM
Some Gun Fun! (not to be taken too seriously though a tad Americano)!

1. Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
2. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.
3. Gun control is not about guns, it's about control.
4. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.
5. If you don't know your rights you don't have any.
6. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
7. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.
8. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
9. You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stay alive.
10. Assault is a behaviour, not a device.
11. Criminals love gun control -- it makes their jobs safer.
12. If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.
13. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.
14. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.
15. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.
 Ant2312
Joined: 1/24/2012
Msg: 74
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 10:35:17 AM

I hope you follow the gun laws more strictly than you follow the forum rules.



The same ones that apply to flaming no doubt
 bhawk01
Joined: 12/24/2011
Msg: 75
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 11:08:21 AM
I have read a lot of impartial reports into gun crime, there has been no correlation between legal possession of guns and gun crime. Remember, its piss easy to get a gun on the black market.
Guns dont need restricting, we need to educate about guns and gun safety more than anything.
A gun is merely a tool, like anything, funnily enough there is a thread below this one about someone killing someone with a hammer....ive seen several stories in the past about hammer attacks...should we ban hammers?
Or kitchen knives? we should start making every home license themselves to control a kitchen knife!

If someone wants to kill someone they will do it, regardless of not having access to a gun
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