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| | is Islam an Page 4 of 21 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21) |
Personally, I believe God is neither male nor female.
ditto for muslims. Jesus was not God...according to muslims.
I also think perhaps God hates those who treat women as if they are brainless children that need to be guided by males,
Islam would agree with this too.
and made to cover up like ghouls on Halloween
I'm thinking you are talking about the full covering save the eyes. According to most scholars, that is not an Islamic requirement. As for the hijab (head covering), by far most common, I know many "brainless" professional women that wear it. Doctors, surgeons, lawyers, you name it. Even a vet I know. My sis is a teacher and wears a hijab. Younger sis does not. Why is it offensive to you? Have you seen what some young women/girls wear (or actually don't) these days....PLEASE! And when guys stare at them, they're uncomfortable...WOW!
like "ghouls" ...give me a break... | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 11:06:23 AM | ditto for muslims. Jesus was not God...according to muslims.
Ok.
Islam would agree with this too.
Then why doesn’t Islam start treating females appropriately?
As for the hijab (head covering), by far most common, I know many "brainless" professional women that wear it. Doctors, surgeons, lawyers, you name it. Even a vet I know. My sis is a teacher and wears a hijab. Younger sis does not. Why is it offensive to you? Have you seen what some young women/girls wear (or actually don't) these days....PLEASE! And when guys stare at them, they're uncomfortable...WOW!
You don’t need to convince me that western women are dressing like prostitutes these days. Any day now I expect western women will start walking around nude. Western men don’t degrade themselves in the same manner that western women do. There should be an equality of bodily exposure between the male and female in public.
THAT SAID, however, Islamic women degrade themselves by setting themselves apart as if their body were somehow too dirty to be exposed in any way, shape, or form. I think if pants and a shirt are good for male Islamics, they’re plenty good for female Islamics.
I see no difference between the degradation of a western woman exposing her tits and ass by wearing inappropriate ho clothing in public, while western men are covered and casual, and an Islamic woman dressing like a ghost on Halloween while Islamic men are wearing pants and a shirt. Both are degradation of women. | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 4:13:53 PM |
Then why doesn't Islam start treating women more appropriately?
Not Islam Saritamiami, but SOME muslims, often for ingrained cultural reasons.
There should be an equality of bodily exposure between the male and female in public.
Are male and female bodies anatomically and to be more precise, sexually equivalent? Islam urges women AND men to dress modestly.
I see no difference between the degredation of western women exposing .....and an Islamic women dressing like a ghost on Halloween while Islamic men are wearing pants and a shirt.
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
Women who dress modestly degrade themselves? (No) Btw, do you think the female surgeon I know performs surgery wearing a burkha. Islam does not dictate what women wear, but that whatever they wear should be modest..so as not to draw attention to their beautiful (Not dirty) female form. Do you know how many muslim women are attending University in North America? How many dress like ghosts on Halloween? Wearing pants and a shirt...no problem. But there are loose fitting pants and shirts and then there is stuff worn by some women where I wonder how the heck they got into them. I mean, they'd have to go on a diet just to get out of them. I am sure you know what I am talking about. | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 5:44:32 PM | COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
Women who dress modestly degrade themselves? (No) Btw, do you think the female surgeon I know performs surgery wearing a burkha. Islam does not dictate what women wear, but that whatever they wear should be modest..so as not to draw attention to their beautiful (Not dirty) female form. Do you know how many muslim women are attending University in North America? How many dress like ghosts on Halloween? Wearing pants and a shirt...no problem. But there are loose fitting pants and shirts and then there is stuff worn by some women where I wonder how the heck they got into them. I mean, they'd have to go on a diet just to get out of them. I am sure you know what I am talking about.
Does she perform surgery in a western nation? If she does, just wait till someone slaps her with one hell of a lawsuit for killing someone with the bacteria and viruses that burkha carries, or simply being unable to SEE what the F she's doing to the patient because that ridiculous burkha covers up the normal field of vision. What a screwed up thing, Islamic women wearing those monkey dresses! Operating with a burkha.. please! You know, I curb my tongue, but if I didn't, I'd have a few choice words for Islam that would make your head spin.
Are male and female bodies anatomically and to be more precise, sexually equivalent? Islam urges women AND men to dress modestly.
Pants and a shirt cover as much in a man as in a woman. No more need be said. I don't understand what the heck this anatomical bs you're talking about is. For example, men have a bulge between their legs, but they wear pants, which makes the bulge stand out more. Is that not inmodest as hell? Yes, and yet Islamic males walk around in pants inmodestly displaying their penile bulge. Let's start thinking logically. Men and women must be equally covered or uncovered in their dress. End of story. | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 5:46:17 PM | | Burka is a women's choice and her culture. It has nothing to do Islam. There is no such thing in Islam as to wear Burka. It is a country's culture thing. People are so ignorant of religions that they can't distinguish a religion from culture. | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 5:57:35 PM |
Burka is a women's choice and her culture. It has nothing to do Islam. There is no such thing in Islam as to wear Burka. It is a country's culture thing. People are so ignorant of religions that they can't distinguish a religion from culture.
The cultural argument just doesn't work very well as a justification for Islamic women being covered up like ghosts, while Islamic men are walking around with their butts and penises nicely outlined in their jeans so everyone can see.
I'm gonna tell you why the cultural argument doesn't work. Islam *does* have dress rules for women. It doesn't have those same dress rules for men. Men are free to wiggle their penis as they wish within those tight jeans.
The cultural differences argument won't fly because the dress differences is NOT a cultural difference. It's a religious tenet.
Time for Islam to drive up to the 21st Century. | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/28/2005 5:58:55 PM | Could you back up your argument with some verses from Koran other than narration? None of your points have anything to do with Koran at all. You only have found some narration that aren't even from Koran and keep pointing to those as if nobody knows. If you couldn't find the verses, let me know. I know verses from all sacred books.
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Posted: 7/28/2005 6:08:38 PM |
Seven Conditions For Women's Dress in Islam
Syed MA Rahman discusses how a Muslimah meets the requirements of Islamic modesty in dress and sets out their Quranic background.
Hijab is a word that indicates not just the headscarf but clothing in its entirety which meets the following conditions :
1. Clothing must cover the entire body, only the hands and face may remain visible (According to some Fiqh Schools) .
2. The material must not be so thin that one can see through it.
3. The clothing must hang loose so that the shape / form of the body is not apparent.
4. The female clothing must not resemble the man's clothing.
5. The design of the clothing must not resemble the clothing of the non believing women.
6. The design must not consist of bold designs which attract attention.
7. Clothing should not be worn for the sole purpose of gaining reputation or increasing one's status in society.
The reason for this strictness is so that the woman is protected from the lustful gaze of men. She should not attract attention to herself in any way. It is permissible for a man to catch the eye of a woman , however it is haram (unlawful) for a man to look twice as this encourages lustful thoughts.
islamfortoday.com/7conditions.htm
There you go. Islam for 2005. Ahem. | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/28/2005 6:11:47 PM | | I wasn't asking for idea of an individual who may or may not be aware of Koran. I am asking for verses from Koran to back it up. Just give me the Koranic verses that dictate that, will you please? | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/28/2005 6:14:04 PM | | Verses? Why don't you quote them. Aren't you Muslim? Quote them then let me be the judge. I will say this, I'll bet you there's a difference in what it says about men and women. Betcha. | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/28/2005 6:18:04 PM | Hehehehe. That is very funny now. So you admitted now that you have no knowledge of any religion including Islam and now asking me for it. Like I have mentioned before, I have studied world religions and know about almost all religions and their sacred books.
Tell me this first, so what do you think? Has Koran dictated and asked men to be modest and have Hijab or women first?
By the way, you can't be the judge anyway. Someone can be the judge who knows world religions and can talk about every aspect of it.
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/28/2005 6:30:32 PM |
Hehehehe. That is very funny now. So you admitted now that you have no knowledge of any religion including Islam and now asking me for it. Like I have mentioned before, I have studied world religions and know about almost all religions and their sacred books.
Tell me this first, so what do you think? Has Koran dictated and asked men to be modest and have Hijab or women first?
By the way, you can't be the judge anyway. Someone can be the judge who knows world religions and can talk about every aspect of it.
My guess? My guess is that the Koran probably asked both to be modest, but it has about 50 more lines about it for women than men. As for whom is mentioned first, I think men, since it probably doesnt say much about them.
As for me judging, why not? Do I not have EYES? EARS? I see what I see. In the mall, I see these Muslim men, very cute by the way, wearing tight jeans, their little butts moving up-down-up-down, and what's next to them? A walking, talking bed sheet (the sheet-wearing wife). | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 6:36:07 PM | Yet again, wrong. And there is no 50 more lines about it women either. See. You are putting yourself in a situation in which you are "WYSIWYG". You have only watched some TV and people around you who are "born muslim" and have no idea of what their religion is all about.
Women can wear the same jeans that you are talking about. The dress code that you laid out earlier is just someone's thoughts and ideas. As long as you are staying modest within the limit as not to show your ass and boobs to attract men for some sexual pleasure, it is all fine. | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 6:42:06 PM | Women can wear the same jeans that you are talking about.
Yeah uhuh. They can wear the same jeans under those bedsheets they walk around the mall with. 
As long as you are staying modest within the limit as not to show your ass and boobs to attract men for some sexual pleasure, it is all fine.
Yeah, but Islamic men can show their ass and penis outline. It's just all so equal... | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/28/2005 6:44:26 PM | | Again, you are mixing up culture with religion. There is no such thing as wearing "bedsheets" as you call them in Koran. It is all culture of a country, so stop mixing culture with religion and learn more about different religion to open up your mind. | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/28/2005 6:55:11 PM |
Does she perform surgery in a western nation?...
Have you heard of rhetorical questions? Guess not. So the answer is OF COURSE NOT. The question..to remind you was
Do you think the female surgeon I know performs surgery wearing a burkha?
Perhaps i was not being clear enough.
Saritamiami, why hate Islam so much. I'm Palestinian and don't hate jews simply because they are jewish. And what's with they look like ghosts nonsense you keep repeating. What they look like is a matter of cultural and religious perspective. In the Mid-East, men look like ghosts too...even wearing white...have you seen them. So they all look like ghosts men and wonen. I guess you're just afraid of ghosts then.
P.S.
Passionteman, impressive posting  | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/28/2005 7:22:12 PM |
Saritamiami, why hate Islam so much. I'm Palestinian and don't hate jews simply because they are jewish. And what's with they look like ghosts nonsense you keep repeating. What they look like is a matter of cultural and religious perspective. In the Mid-East, men look like ghosts too...even wearing white...have you seen them. So they all look like ghosts men and wonen. I guess you're just afraid of ghosts then.
I think Islam needs to get on the stick already, and stop treating their women as if they were creatures from another planet. I'm not saying that the world has yet reached a point where women are treated equally and fairly everywhere. It hasn't. However, Islam is trying its darndest to stay back in some ancient century.
Sure I've seen some Islamic men wearing those long thingies. However, most of those have been bedouins and princes of Saudi Arabia and the Arab Emirates.
However, down here where I live (Miami), you see Muslim families walking around the mall in the way I described.... males wearing tight pants showing off their you-know-what to all the women, and shirts open at the neckline to show off their little chest hairs, while their wives next to them are covered head to foot wearing bedsheets. | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 7:31:19 PM | Yeah. Yet again. Don't mix culture with religion. That wife has as much freedom as the husband. She can wear anything she wants as long as it is within the modest level. These are the things that you must know:
1. Don't mix culture with religion.
2. "Muslim born" people aren't aware of their own religion, so don't blame religion for it. It does't matter what you wear as long as it is within the modest range.
3. Both men and women can wear jeans. There is no problem with that. There is no such thing in Islam that has specified not to wear this type of cloth or that type of cloth. You could wear anything you want as long as it is modest.
4. If the women wear their own culture thing, that is their own problem. Don't blame a religion for it. Besides, you don't know about different cultures in Asia and Middle East anyway, so you need some travelling to do and see how varied it is around there.
5. Whatever muslim women wear is out of their own modesty and culture. There is no forcing by men to wear that either.
6. Just because women are beautiful and men are like wolf packs. Thus, the modest dressing. | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 10:02:52 PM | I've converted to Islam just recently, so I thought I'd put my two cents in.
I love Islam. For some reason, it makes a LOT more sense to me than Christianity ever did.
I think what needs to be said is that the entire attitude of "plural marriages" and such may be alive and well in Islam, but not in North America. In Saudi Arabia? Probable. Other countries in Asia and the Middle East? Probably. However, that fact, and the entire "women are treated lower than dogs" rhetoric doesn't slide here, at least in Canada.
It's all location, really.
Obviously, with the war in Iraq, and the recent bombings...people will paint Islam as a violent faith. It has been said that a very, very small minority of Muslims are that way.
I'm a tall, bald, white guy who's been a Christian for the past number of years; and it's the hypocracy of the Catholic and Christian churches that has all but driven me to Islam. Christianity and all its contradictions among its demoninations upsets me and confuses me. Islam doesn't.
Praise Allah!
_Steven | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/28/2005 10:27:35 PM | @coffee
figure it out, the reason why women aren't treated harshly by devout muslims in n. america is simply because you don't islamic law in place.......but go to any muslim country that is run by 'sharia' and you'll see what the women get treated like!......of course, they'll never complain because if they do, they will be severely punished....also, look at whats being debated in the new iraqi constitution, that is 'islamic' laws regarding women, who would be in danger of losing all of their freedoms that they had under saddam's rule.......so c'mon man!
a small minority of violent muslims???....maybe so, but then where are the overwhelming number of muslim moderates condemning all of these bombings?......the feeling is, that most pple in muslim countries are not concerned by any of this, and some tacitly agree.....as far as the muslim clerics, on one hand they speak against the bombings and on the other hand they encourage them and provide support!
as far as yourself, you claim that the hypocrisy of the rc church & others have driven you out of christianity?..have you ever tried to read thru the bible yourself instead? ..so that means what? that you are a muslim by default?....furthmore, do you really think that there is no hypocrysy in islam countries???.......and another tid bit, at least no one has stopped you from becoming a muslim here in n. america, but did you know that it is illegal for anyone to convert to christianity even in the most liberal islamic nation???
if you don't believe me, then look it up! | |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 11:53:50 PM | the reason why women aren't treated harshly by devout muslims in n. america is simply because you don't islamic law Isn't the definition of a devout muslim one who abides by Islamic law regardless of the country they live in? Few posters seem to be smart enough to get what passionteman is saying ..... there can be all the difference in the world between the values of an Islamic NATION and the values of a muslim individual. Do you seriously think that the devout muslims in the West are going against Islamic law? Perhaps it is more that they are moving to West for the opportunity to follow their true beliefs while avoiding persecution, just as the pilgrim fathers did a few hundred years before them. | |
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alp65
| | Joined: 7/22/2005
Msg: 100 | |
| is Islam an
Posted: 7/29/2005 12:39:10 AM | | We in Canada are now developing a Muslim-based Family court system. It will adhere to the muslim faith whereas the secular family-court system is found to be more or less inappropriate to those in the muslim faith. It is expected to be launched shortly to the applause of many in the muslim community. I'm a christian btw. | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/29/2005 4:12:39 AM |
if you don't believe me, then look it up! Woah...touchee! Take a chill pill, dude!
I haven't bee a Muslim for very long, but at last check, there IS not "Muslim leader" to the same effect as the RC's Benedict. There have been LOCAL Muslim ;eavers who have coondemn the attacks and said that htey do NOT follow Islamic law, and that's good enough for me. The local mosque has been very open to me concerning this.
as far as the muslim clerics, on one hand they speak against the bombings and on the other hand they encourage them and provide support! Sounds American...they condemn any terrorism, yet previously had funded the very terrorists that attacked them.
and another tid bit, at least no one has stopped you from becoming a muslim here in n. america, but did you know that it is illegal for anyone to convert to christianity even in the most liberal islamic nation??? Not to sound uncaring and shallow, but I'm not particularily concerned about that; I'm here in CANADA, not there. I prefer to fgocus on our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, and everything else that makes being a Canuck so awesome. No offence to those out there, of course.
urthmore, do you really think that there is no hypocrysy in islam countries??? I don't expect that Islamic countries are free of hypocracy...but then again, hypocracy runs rampant in the US government.
I'm happyp to live in a democratic society, that allows me the freedom of religous choice. | |
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| is Islam an EVIL religion
Posted: 7/29/2005 6:18:24 AM | | Veil (hijab) is imposed on women in many countries under the influence of Islam, either legally or under cultural and social pressure. During the last thirty years, hijab has been and continues to be the political and ideological symbol of political Islam, Islamic states and the Islamic movement in the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia. Women have been the first - hand victims of this reactionary movement, and imposing the veil on women by Islamic movement and Islamic governments has been their fist bloody action to suppress the whole society. In other countries, Saudi women typically don a billowy black cloak called an Abaya, along with a black scarf and veil over the face. Morality police enforce the dress code by striking errant women with sticks. The women of Iran and the Sudan can expose the face, but should cover the hair and the neck. Otherwise they face arrest, imprisonment, flagging, cash fines; and if they refuse it, they face knife and acid attack. Under Taliban, women of Afghanistan had to wear burqa. Political Islamic groups vigorously campaign to block reforms in women's civil rights in the Middle East and North Africa. As long as Islam secludes women from the public life, no real socio-economic progress is possible. | |
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| is Islam an
Posted: 7/29/2005 6:43:35 AM | Sum1reel
Aren't you seeing religiong through its people? or have you actually gone in and studied the books and found out everything rather than looking at actions of people? I think the most important thing to do first is to explore different religions through its sacred books rather than look at the people of that religion.
figure it out, the reason why women aren't treated harshly by devout muslims in n. america is simply because you don't islamic law in place.......but go to any muslim country that is run by 'sharia' and you'll see what the women get treated like!......
1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust. The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:
a. Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.
b. Greek Civilization:
Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.
c. Roman Civilization:
When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.
d. Egyptian Civilization:
The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.
e. Pre-Islamic Arabia:
Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.
of course, they'll never complain because if they do, they will be severely punished....also, look at whats being debated in the new iraqi constitution, that is 'islamic' laws regarding women, who would be in danger of losing all of their freedoms that they had under saddam's rule.......so c'mon man
2. What you have seen in the media is just something to play around with your mind. There is no such thing in Islam to punish someone for complaining about a problem. It is the "born muslim" people who have made things bad for others as they aren't even aware of their own religion. Could you present me with some verses from the Koran that even states something like that? It is better to have some evidence to back a claim.
3.
a small minority of violent muslims???....maybe so, but then where are the overwhelming number of muslim moderates condemning all of these bombings?......the feeling is, that most pple in muslim countries are not concerned by any of this, and some tacitly agree.....as far as the muslim clerics, on one hand they speak against the bombings and on the other hand they encourage them and provide support!
I would need some evidence from the Koran to believe you that there is such thing as bombing other people. Again, you are mixing up people's actions with a religion.
at least no one has stopped you from becoming a muslim here in n. america, but did you know that it is illegal for anyone to convert to christianity even in the most liberal islamic nation???
if you don't believe me, then look it up!
Here is a verse for you. Islam is the only religion that has given you religious freedom. Infact, it is only Islam that has mentioned in the Koran to protect anyone who is non-muslim living in a muslim country. So it is duty of every "REAL MUSLIM" to protect any non-muslim living in an Islamic country
"Let there be no compulsion in religion:
Truth stands out clear from error"
[Al-Qur’an 2:256] | |
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