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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz      Home login  
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 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 26
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!Page 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)

If the US wasn't threatening every other day to bomb the crap out of Iran for something even the head of the CIA says they are not doing (Building nuclear bombs),


Can you imagine that IF Iran was to say today that they are done with their nuclear activities and let the IAEA and UN in to verify how many upset people there would be in Washington and Texas? They want this regime overthrown just as they did Mossadegh for reasons not nuclear and not Islamic but the nuclear "threat" provides something that can be fed to the people to justify.

I'm not downplaying the adverse ramifications on the power shift in the Middle East with a nuclear Iran and I'd just as soon not see it. But to a nation with $16 Trillion in debt and counting, war is suicide.

I appreciate Pete's perspective and I feel in a lot of cases he is holding a mirror in front of us to show us the acne. But we're perpetuating problems that still exist from Britain's fall from Empire practically a century ago. We're just the modern day version repeating the same patterns and if we continue down this path, we'd be so lucky as to still be free and to be able to sit in judgment of the next Empire on Earth.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 27
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/13/2012 12:38:49 PM

Can you imagine that IF Iran was to say today that they are done with their nuclear activities and let the IAEA and UN in to verify how many upset people there would be in Washington and Texas?
What am I missing? What does Texas have to do with it.

I can (very) well imagine that AIPAC would be spitting mad ... especially when you consider all the money they have poured into the pockets of Congress would then be for nothing. Yes indeed, that would certainly put AIPAC in a really pi$$y mood.

At this point, I think any NPT signatory who does not already have nukes should back out of it. Furthermore, until there is proof that the "Big Boys" (Israel included) are truly disarming, then I think it makes sense for any country to be openly allowed to arm themselves the best they can. Personally, I can well imagine why Iran wants their own nukes what with the Zionists gunning for them and the US blindly backing them, IMO, Iran has every reason in the world to arm themselves and I hope they do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treaty#Second_pillar:_disarmament
Article VI of the NPT represents the only binding commitment in a multilateral treaty to the goal of disarmament by the nuclear-weapon States . The NPT's preamble contains language affirming the desire of treaty signatories to ease international tension and strengthen international trust so as to create someday the conditions for a halt to the production of nuclear weapons, and treaty on general and complete disarmament that liquidates, in particular, nuclear weapons and their delivery vehicles from national arsenals .
I have never seen any proof that the US is liquidating nuclear weapons yet we don't want others to build them? Why is that?


The wording of the NPT's Article VI arguably imposes only a vague obligation on all NPT signatories to move in the general direction of nuclear and total disarmament, saying, "Each of the Parties to the Treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament." Under this interpretation, Article VI does not strictly require all signatories to actually conclude a disarmament treaty. Rather, it only requires them "to negotiate in good faith."

On the other hand, some governments, especially non-nuclear-weapon states belonging to the Non-Aligned Movement , have interpreted Article VI's language as being anything but vague . In their view, Article VI constitutes a formal and specific obligation on the NPT-recognized nuclear-weapon states to disarm themselves of nuclear weapons , and argue that these states have failed to meet their obligation. The International Court of Justice (ICJ), in its advisory opinion on the Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons, issued 8 July 1996, unanimously interprets the text of Article VI as implying that ...
"There exists an obligation to pursue in good faith and bring to a conclusion negotiations leading to nuclear disarmament in all its aspects under strict and effective international control."

The ICJ opinion notes that this obligation involves all NPT parties (not just the nuclear weapon states) and does not suggest a specific time frame for nuclear disarmament.

Critics of the NPT-recognized nuclear-weapon states sometimes argue that what they view as the failure of the NPT-recognized nuclear weapon states to disarm themselves of nuclear weapons, especially in the post–Cold War era, has angered some non-nuclear-weapon NPT signatories of the NPT . Such failure , these critics add, provides justification for the non-nuclear-weapon signatories to quit the NPT and develop their own nuclear arsenals .
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 28
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/13/2012 3:49:10 PM


Maybe if we'd stop with the constant saber rattling, Iran wouldn't feel the need to resort to such measures.

I think they have a right to protect themselves against other bully nations ... the US included.

More saber rattling from the US:

At a time of heightened tensions with Iran, U.S. military officials told CNN Friday that U.S. military and Coast Guard ships had two close encounters earlier this month with high-speed Iranian boats in the Strait of Hormuz and Persian Gulf that exhibited provocative behavior.

The incidents occurred January 6, according to a senior U.S. military official.

The USS New Orleans, an amphibious transport ship was sailing through the Strait of Hormuz into the Persian Gulf last Friday when three Iranian Navy speed boats rapidly approached within 500 yards of the ship, the official said. The Iranians did not respond to whistle signals or voice queries from the New Orleans. The lack of response disregards standard maritime protocols, the official said. The boats eventually broke away.
.........
While the U.S. Navy has had routine encounters with Iranian naval forces for years, the Navy has reported seeing more aggressive action in recent weeks from Iranian-flagged vessels. Typically, Iranian small boats are operated by forces of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps force and are considered to be more aggressive than regular Iranian forces.


http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/13/exclusive-u-s-harassed-by-iranian-ships/

Just typical that those damn Yanks won't just leave those poor Iranians alone out in transit waterways. What imperialistic monsters!
 _TALL_IQ2_
Joined: 2/10/2010
Msg: 29
Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/13/2012 7:03:14 PM
Iran won't attempt to close the Hormuz, its just bluster! If they do, they know that their ships will be completely destroyed.

Let's hope that their few rational leaders minds will keep the Ayatollas and Amdenijads in check for the time being...

IF their Revolutionary Guard does decide to try to close the Strait, they may cause a big splash there, although only briefly, and only once...
Their leaders have today been directly told of the consequences of any real attempt to block the Strait..
Loss of all their ships/boats and most Navy and missile bases leveled also..

The Carl Vinson is there now, and the John Stennis is returning... Needless to mention what may be lurking UNDER the surface... Each with 154 Tomahawks...
More to come daily...
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 30
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/13/2012 8:20:43 PM
Iran is no threat to us they are like a small dog barking. They won't close Hormuz they can't afford to cut the hand off that feeds them which is Europe and North America. No matter how much they dislike us and play these stupid games they need us for their economical survival.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 31
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/14/2012 12:42:54 AM
Boy do we ever need the EV1 now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
I'll still never understand why we let that go!

At least with an EV1 we wouldn't be so dependent on the Middle East for our transportation!
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 32
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/14/2012 5:50:33 AM

What does Texas have to do with it.


Ummmm. It needs to be explained? Consider it a metaphor.


I'll still never understand why we let that go!

At least with an EV1 we wouldn't be so dependent on the Middle East for our transportation!


Your asking the wrong questions. Is it OUR dependence on foreign oil that is really the issue? Would it also be mind-boggling to consider the question "What does Moscow and Beijing have to do with it"? What does everyone know about Henry Kissinger and his role in both oil and Middle East policies?

The real answers to "why" and "for whom" are already known. Our question should be "Is it absolutely necessary and worth the costs?".
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 33
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/14/2012 6:13:22 AM
Saber rattling is among the oldest of international relations tricks. Contrary to common belief, it rarely is backed by a genuine desire to go to war. In fact, the whole REASON to rattle your saber, is to AVOID actually fighting.

What the Bush administration did vis a vis Iraq wasn't saber rattling followed by war, it was more like walking into a room already armed to the teeth, where an uncomfortable truce had already been painfully worked out, announcing that the other side wasn't working at it hard enough, and then shooting them in the face.

Bravo Steel city, for correctly assessing this situation.
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 34
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/14/2012 8:03:13 AM

Bravo Steel city, for correctly assessing this situation.


A little problem with the assessment. Iran is threatening the blockade to prevent sanctions that remove their best interests in allowing the straights to remain open. Are you biting the hand that feeds you if the hand stops feeding you? If their exports thru the straights are banned as is proposed and is the reason for the threat, then they've got little to lose.

It's a game of poker now. Iran can't afford the sanctions but the rest of the fragile world economies can't afford the straights to be blockaded. Someone blinks or there will be war. It's a reality and the lines being drawn are scary when Putin has already stated that an attack on Iran will be viewed as an attack on Russia.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 35
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/14/2012 12:13:11 PM

If their exports thru the straights are banned as is proposed and is the reason for the threat, then they've got little to lose.

They still have plenty to lose. For instance, their entire navy. Which is coincidentally what they will lose if they commit to attacking shipping vessels in international waterways. Which is what they're threatening to do.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 36
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/14/2012 4:43:26 PM
A little problem with the assessment. Iran is threatening the blockade to prevent sanctions that remove their best interests in allowing the straights to remain open. Are you biting the hand that feeds you if the hand stops feeding you? If their exports thru the straights are banned as is proposed and is the reason for the threat, then they've got little to lose.


They rely heavily on their Foreign trade. If they cut off the straights they will not only cause a lot heavy of sanctions to be in place against them which will cut off their source of income, but also alienate themselves from the vast majority of countries that they profit from in their oil production. It would be economical suicide for them to close the straights, because of those reasons. All they are doing is trying to flex their muscle . Iran is no more then a little dog barking. A lot of bark but no bite. We should be laughing at them at their piss poor attempts to some how scare the U.S. with their little boats going up to a Navy battleship then anything else.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 37
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/14/2012 6:29:46 PM
All that's really involved is that the US is once again over there trying to show muscle for the Zionists.

The Zionists need to fight their own battles. If they're big enough to leave the porch and pick a fight with the big boys, then they should show up for the fight and not send their big brother instead.

Also, if they have a problem with Iran, then they should clean up their own backyard before they go after the only nation that has the guts to put them in their place ... the only nation I know of that they can't buy off!
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 38
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/15/2012 9:39:48 AM
Well I'm pretty sure that Iran is not the only Middle Eastern country using that waterway to ship their oil. But I guess the other countries like Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the UAE don't have a Navy?

So Iran is pretty much just saying "Screw you guys".

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/15/10160133-consequences-iran-warns-gulf-countries-not-to-replace-its-oil
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 39
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/16/2012 12:12:56 PM

Well I'm pretty sure that Iran is not the only Middle Eastern country using that waterway to ship their oil. But I guess the other countries like Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the UAE don't have a Navy?

Ah... pretty much the whole world uses that waterway.
 Pete2205
Joined: 3/18/2011
Msg: 40
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/16/2012 5:02:53 PM
At Yule:

''What turned the tide of the war is the huge mistake Hitler made by invading Russia ill prepared. Otherwise the UK would have eventually capitulated with or without the radar towers.''

WRONG: Germany was doing a great job bombing our airfields and had they continued to do so then they would have left us unable to defend ourselves from attack from an assault on our shores. Hitlers objective was to remove the threat of the RAF then land on the beaches and advance inland to a line of about 30 degrees from Bristol to the Norfolk coast. He then believed the rest of England would capitulate and sue for peace. However Churchill decided to divert Hitler by taking the war to Germany's heart bombing Berlin, Dresden and Cologne. This infuriated Hitler and he threw his rattle out of his pram and instructed the Luftwaffe to forget bombing airfields and radar stations and commence bombing London.

This went on night after night and allowed us to recover, repair airfields and replace aircraft. The result was that we won the battle of Britain and the invasion of England was called off indefinitely.

He was defeated by Russia because 1. He expected to win easily, he did not expect the level of resistance he got. 2. He advanced far to quickly and his ordnance support and supply lines were spread far too thin with little armoured support. 3. He expected to be in Moscow well before Winter set in - When the snow came his men were ill equipped to fight, it is said that more Germans died through hypothermia and cold than from Russian bullets.

You also forget that far from getting our butts kicked we as a small island were facing an army that had conquered Europe and we stood ALONE against the Nazis - From the Dunkirk beaches we rescued over 350,000 men after fighting for three years and It was Montgomery that kicked the Germans and Rommel out of Africa. You didn't win WW2 on your own you were an Allie - But one does wonder if the ''Land of the free'' had entered at the start if the war might have ended a lot sooner and saved millions of lives on both sides.

You talk of British Imperialism and go back to 1600?? Jeesh how many native Indians did you massacre? Britain as an island has been attacked throughout history from the Vikings to the Normans. The French in particular attempted many invasions and the British just defended their shores as any nation would ?

Why dont you want to answer my point about Noraid? The massive support the USA gave to the IRA that funded the bullets and bombs that killed innocent civilians in Ireland and in the cities of England?
Why dont you answer my points about the death penalty that exists still in many USA states and the length of time prisoners have spent on death row?
Why dont you answer my point about the USA support of Israel and the persecution and displacement of Palestinians?
Why dont you answer my point about the USA having enough bombs to obliterate the world and yet you keep on this crusade against Iraq?
Not quite so keen to mount an attack against North Korea though ....Hmmm but then that could end up the same as last time, I guess you dont want that?

My point remains -- America seems to want to dictate to the world - It spent how many years fighting communism? Taking the world to the brink of nuclear war? Now it sees Islam as a threat to world peace ? So it wants to bring down any Islamic government ?

Not every Muslim is a terrorist and not every terrorist is a Muslim - Just because Iran develops a nuclear capability does not mean its a threat to world peace.

There are many people in this world that see the USA as a threat to world peace....But then while your singing the Star Spangled Banner your just not listening....
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 41
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/16/2012 7:50:17 PM

America seems to want to dictate to the world - It spent how many years fighting communism? Taking the world to the brink of nuclear war? Now it sees Islam as a threat to world peace ? So it wants to bring down any Islamic government ?
Yuppers ... that just about sums it up ...

Not every Muslim is a terrorist and not every terrorist is a Muslim - Just because Iran develops a nuclear capability does not mean its a threat to world peace.
Absolutely correct ...

There are many people in this world that see the USA as a threat to world peace ...
And that's really nothing new.

If you ask me, charity begins at home and we have no business sticking our noses in others' business until we clean up our own back yards.

If you ask me, the best thing that could happen is if Iran goes nuclear. It will help to balance out things over there. If the US stops holding Israel's hand and lets them fend for themselves with all their trouble making ... Iran with nuclear capabilities could just work out to keep things in check ...
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 42
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/17/2012 2:11:08 AM

If you ask me, the best thing that could happen is if Iran goes nuclear. It will help to balance out things over there.

LOL

I always love reading this forum. Really is a great way to put myself into perspective.
 frankster_p
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 43
Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/17/2012 8:04:46 AM
Actually probably wouldne be bad, they couldnt be pushed around anymore.
Stability. People take a nuclear armed nation more seriously.
Could even make Israel pull their heads in a bit... can only hope.

Cheers
F.P.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 44
Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/17/2012 11:17:20 AM
dang..you guys are nutty..crazy ass israel hating country having nukes could be a good thing,wtf? seriously hate makes people stupid no matter who you are....some people are willing to blow themselves up just to kill a few jews imagine how much fun they could have with nukes....
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 45
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/17/2012 1:50:55 PM
"My point remains -- America seems to want to dictate to the world - It spent how many years fighting communism? Taking the world to the brink of nuclear war?"

I don't believe the U.S. wants to dictate to the world but, I do agree that the GOP are relatively paranoid, fascist Christians bent on maintaining Christianity with the strongest military... which is why we spend more on defense each year than all other nations combined. However, through all of this, we also acknowledge the true power of the nuclear weapon.


Now it sees Islam as a threat to world peace ? So it wants to bring down any Islamic government ?"

You can't really justify this comment since we're friendly with Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations / governments. What is rightly seen as a threat is fascism... whether it is Islamic fascism or Christian fascism or Nazi fascism.


Not every Muslim is a terrorist and not every terrorist is a Muslim - Just because Iran develops a nuclear capability does not mean its a threat to world peace.

Iran does not seem to be governed by everyday practicing Muslims. You're speaking about a fascist government that has stated the holocaust never happened, they have sworn to the destruction of Israel, and they seek to convert all peoples of the world to Islam. Add to this that they are not the wealthiest of nations but they are willing to overly invest in developing weapons of mass destruction and they are only threatened with invasion if they do so. So why not live in peace and use the oil money to create a great Islamic society instead of a militaristic society? Why do you suppose they are so determined to develop a nuclear weapon capability?


"There are many people in this world that see the USA as a threat to world peace....But then while your singing the Star Spangled Banner your just not listening...."

This i agree with... particularly when it comes to Republicans who thump their chests proclaiming patriotism and Christian righteousness.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 46
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/17/2012 7:47:13 PM

You're speaking about a fascist government ... ... ... they have sworn to the destruction of Israel ...
When did they do that? Are you perhaps trying to reference the "MEMRI" (mis)translation?

... they seek to convert all peoples of the world to Islam.
They do? When did they say that?

Why do you suppose they are so determined to develop a nuclear weapon capability?
If I were them, I'd want to eventually be able to defend myself against the Zionists ... and quite possibly the US if need be. If for no other reason but that they don't need anyone's permission to do so?

I think we need to let the Zionists fend for themselves and settle any fights they pick ... leave us out of it all.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 47
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Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/17/2012 8:48:24 PM
At pete



However Churchill decided to divert Hitler by taking the war to Germany's heart bombing Berlin, Dresden and Cologne. This infuriated Hitler and he threw his rattle out of his pram and instructed the Luftwaffe to forget bombing airfields and radar stations and commence bombing London. This went on night after night and allowed us to recover, repair airfields and replace aircraft. The result was that we won the battle of Britain and the invasion of England was called off indefinitely.


This is only PARTIALLY correct! The TRUTH is that on a German bombing mission in England, their airplane mistaking dropped their ordinance on a civilian population after the pilot lost his bearings. That bombing caused civilian deaths and angered Churchil. Hitler wasn't happy about it either, as he had ordered his airforce not to strike civilian targets. Churchill ordered german civilian bombings in retaliation, and thus changed Hitler's objectives which caused him to lose the Battle of Britain by shifting the bombing to civilian sites rather than military ones. It was a strategic blunder. In other words, you staved off the german assault because of a lucky break that Churchil took advantage of. I give Churchill full credit as a top opportunist.




He was defeated by Russia because 1. He expected to win easily, he did not expect the level of resistance he got. 2. He advanced far to quickly and his ordnance support and supply lines were spread far too thin with little armoured support. 3. He expected to be in Moscow well before Winter set in - When the snow came his men were ill equipped to fight, it is said that more Germans died through hypothermia and cold than from Russian bullets.


I summarized the above by saying that the Germans invaded Russia ill prepared.



You also forget that far from getting our butts kicked we as a small island were facing an army that had conquered Europe and we stood ALONE against the Nazis - From the Dunkirk beaches we rescued over 350,000 men after fighting for three years and It was Montgomery that kicked the Germans and Rommel out of Africa. You didn't win WW2 on your own you were an Allie


First of all; you were never "alone". You had the USA and your commonwealth (many of which were the colonized nations under British oppression) spoon feeding you food, raw materials and other vast resources. The US alone was shipping you supplies (manufactured and otherwise) since the start of WW2. We lost 1000's of vessels to German U-boats who were making the crossing; and at one point it was 1 in 3 ships that went down! A lot of brave men in the merchant marine lost their lives to save your dam a$$es from starving to death! You should thank God for the enormous US/Canadian manufacturing capabilities that were able to build ships faster than they were being sunk!

A far as N. Africa was concerned; Rommel was B!TCH SLAPPING you all over the Sahara desert. It was only when Hitler invaded russia that he diverted his forces(mainly the Luftwafe) away from the African campaign that weakened Rommel but he was still able to whip you with one hand tied behind his back!
Churchill kept relieving (sacking) general after general; and he didn't realize that it nothing to do with the guy in charge; its just that the Brits could not whip the Germans one-on-one! It was only until President Roosevelt (at Churchill's plea) that he sent armor and weaponry to give the brits a decisive edge; See the link below:

http://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-north-africa-campaign.htm

Excerpt from the above link:
"fall of Tobruk, however, had unforeseen consequences for the Axis. Churchill heard the news during a meeting with President Franklin D. Roosevelt in the United States. The American president immediately offered help. The resulting 300 Sherman tanks and 100 self-propelled guns would later play a pivotal role at El Alamein."

Montgomery was nothing more than a "bench-warmer"who was substituted in minutes before the "game" ended who managed to score a "goal" ; he was one of many generals to take charge (and no better than any of them before him); he was just at the right place at the right time. He couldn't hold a candle to Rommel's talents as a tactician and battle field innovator. You didn't kick anybody out of anywhere; the US was already well engaged in N. Africa by the time the Germans got beat!

In short; you didn't win a Dam Bloody thing! The real winners were Russia & the US; At most you can call yourselves (lucky) survivors. You were nearly dead broke at the end of the war and had to ask the US for a hand out(tin-cup in hand) through the US-Marshall Plan; that helped you and other Euro countries back on your feet; and then you be-grudge having to "pay us back" like the ingrates that you've shown yourself to be.



But one does wonder if the ''Land of the free'' had entered at the start if the war might have ended a lot sooner and saved millions of lives on both sides.


This ^ you say; after we were (impolitely) told to stay away from European affairs from both Britain & France after the end of WW-1. We tried Dam-fricking-hard to mind our own business (as we were asked to do); and we would have LOVED to just sit on the side lines and watch you Euros beat the living sh!t of one another senseless; but somebody came to drag us in! But at the end of the war when the dust settled; we knew that we couldn't mind our own business anymore, and we had to take control from the incompetent ones!

Ahhhh, but one does wonder if the Pompous Ones (UK & france) had fully implemented President W Wislon's famous 14 points at the end of the 1st World war; that the 2nd World War MIGHT NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=62



how many native Indians did you massacre?


Well, not nearly as many that all the: Australian Aborigines; N Zealand Mauris; Indians (from India); Irish (potato famine genocide victims)Black Africans (in Africa); Canadian(native americans) that you massacred!



Britain as an island has been attacked throughout history from the Vikings to the Normans.


Oh I see, and you feel that this somehow serves as justification for going out and subjugating & oppressing backward pples in far away lands?



The French in particular attempted many invasions


The french haven't won a war against a worthy opponent in over 500 years, so this is no excuse either!



Why dont you want to answer my point about Noraid? The massive support the USA gave to the IRA that funded the bullets and bombs that killed innocent civilians in Ireland and in the cities of England?


Oh man; considering how you treated the Irish while you had subjugated them for a couple of 100 years; and to top it off by allowing about 1 million of them to starve to death; I'd have even contributed a few dollars to their cause (had I been asked), and I'm not even Irish!



Why dont you answer my points about the death penalty that exists still in many USA states and the length of time prisoners have spent on death row?[quote/]

What is TRULY hilarious here is that the Brits have been torturing prisoners for centuries in dungeons; torture chambers, etc. And now you've become pathetically sanctimonious and try to make the US feel guilty about still having the death penalty. At least we've given these individuals a fair trial in the process, unlike what you've done for centuries. As far as I'm concerned, I'm sorry that ALL of the 50 states don't have it as law; and those that do DO NOT use it often enough because I can't think of anything else to do with a mass murder or serial killer; but perhaps we can send them all to the UK were you can magically rehabilitate them and turn them all into upstanding citizens.



Why dont you answer my point about the USA support of Israel and the persecution and displacement of Palestinians?


FACT: Israel did not declare war on its Arab neighbors in 1948! It was the other way around!
FACT: Israel did not initiate aggression prior to the 1967 war
FACT: Israel conducted a pre-emptive strike in 1967 because they uncovered plans that the Arabs were going to attempt another unified attack; and when you declare war then you should expect to be attacked!
FACT: Palestine did not exist; nor was there ever a distinct Arab pple in that region prior to the 67 war. They were all Jordanians up that that time.
FACT: had the palestinian Arabs not taken up armed struggle and not conducted terror tactics from the outset(via the PLO, and now the Hamas, etc); they would have probably gotten their independance a long time ago (assuming they would have recognized Israel's right to exist).



Why dont you answer my point about the USA having enough bombs to obliterate the world


You should be grateful that we spend all the money to build all those bombs; otherwise the cold war would never have been won!



America seems to want to dictate to the world


Its a position that we were forced to take on at the end of WW2; as I already explained; given that there was no other competent country in the free world that could be trusted to do so!



It spent how many years fighting communism?


It would have taken us far less years if the Brits hadn't been leaking out all the nuclear secrets to the Soviets during and after the "manhattan project". Hell, you even gave the Soviets the blue-prints for the RR-Merlin jet engine for FREE; so they then developed their series of MIG fighter with; Man, with "allies" like you on our side; it amazes me that we were able to over come the Russians at all.



Now it sees Islam as a threat to world peace ? So it wants to bring down any Islamic government ?


this ^ statement is about as ignorant as it gets; not even worthy of a response, not even a sarcastic one!



Not every Muslim is a terrorist and not every terrorist is a Muslim


Maybe you should tell the MI5 about that; perhaps they'll stop monitoring every electronic/wireless conversation within the UK's Muslim communities; and maybe they'll place their focus on the Wiccans; You never know if some dastardly druid is planning some terror plot to over throw the UK! Lol!!



There are many people in this world that see the USA as a threat to world peace.


If you truly any any sense whatsoever; you'd know that the USA is the current steward of "world peace" as we can best have it. If we were to stop sending (free) food/aid to the third world; there would be an epidemic of starvation encompassing more than 3 Billion pple within 6 months that would turn the world's economy upside down and have all hell break loose in all corners of the world; as all economies are intrinsically tied! You better hope to dear God that the US maintains its current position/power structure for a long time to come!

Lastly; when you meet an American, you should stop and thank him/her; for all that his/her country has sacrificed for the free world because Freedom isn't free!
 frankster_p
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 48
Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/18/2012 7:14:48 AM
Yule give it a rest mate. You sound like Team America World Police.
America doesnt do anything without a profit.
Its easy to boast when you come into 2 world wars late, and then get to pick the bones over.
If they had taken on the Blitzkrieg at the same time as the French and the Brits they would have gotten a pasting too.

As for Israel, most of them are European Jews, the original Jewish inhabitants lived in peace with their Arab neighbours.
Americans and their Israel love. its weird.

You should thank a european instead, for creating your country, creating your culture, language, system of law. system of government, althugh the yank version is a tad weird.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 49
view profile
History
Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/18/2012 8:54:19 AM
^

America doesnt do anything without a profit.


The only ones who made a "profit" was the military industry who were commissioned to build these cold war weapons; mainly at the expense of the American taxpayer; whose debt is till yet to be paid!


Its easy to boast when you come into 2 world wars late, and then get to pick the bones over.


I guess you don't read too well either, or maybe it is just your bias that makes you believe what you want to believe.


the original Jewish inhabitants lived in peace with their Arab neighbours.


they lived in "peace" because they had NO self determination; thus they were not competing for anything with the Arab population who had political control.


You should thank a european instead, for creating your country, creating your culture, language, system of law. system of government, althugh the yank version is a tad weird.


I guess you get taught the same propaganda that Pete (above) is told. The Euros who came here from the UK, first came to escape religious oppression and brutality from a Despot run Monarchy. When they arrived in the US, the oppression followed them; and they finally had enough they fought bravely to evict the Brits. The country that was created was NOTHING like its parent country; Our laws putting emphasis on individual rights and freedom were unprecedented; and have been the basic blue-print for any other democratically run nation that has developed since. To compare the despot run monarchy of GB to the US constitution is a joke in itself! Our culture has little resemblance to that of the UK; as more diverse pple moved here it has been the richest creative force 2nd only to the European renaisssance of the middle ages, encompassing Arts( music:jazz, blues, Rock); post-war technology; industry/construction; exploration, and so forth! Even the English language was given an over haul to a more soul-full, smoother funkier version then the stiff-mouthed Euro+ Aussie versions.

But believe what you wish "mate"
and don't let the facts confuse you!
 frankster_p
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 50
Here we go again ... Leon Panetta warns Iran to keep Strait of Hormuz open ... OR ELSE!
Posted: 1/18/2012 9:13:39 AM
Yes you got all the religous nuts, and they are still there now funnily enough.
Despot run uk? you have to be kidding me
They poms may piss me off at times, (especially their sporting teams) but they have the best system of government. Everyone says so and tries to copy it.

Parent countries mate, not country, as people came from all over Europe.
You are wrong on the language thing, but thats yank ego talking I would say.
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