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Show ALL Forums  > UK forums  > Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?      Home login  
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 chasinglamely
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 451
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?Page 19 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
The trouble with the whole Scottish independence debate is that it comes down to money. The First Minister likes to talk about walking away with their fair share of national assets, such as gold, coal, gas, etc. But if he wants that, he needs to take their fair share of the national debt, too. And that's where this all gets very, very tricky.

Because the national deficit includes an offset against those Scottish assets we bailed out in the banking crisis. So Scotland needs to realise that they'd have to take ownership of RBS & HBOS from us. Then you work out the total UK debt and give them their fair share by population.

Now, this isn't even the most complex part. Scotland accounts for approximately 1/6th of the UK Population. However, it accounts for almost 1/5th of the national budget spend. So for Scots to be independent, they'd first lose several of the benefits to which they've become accustomed: No more free university, no more free prescriptions, a vastly reduced benefits pool. Or, they'd have to raise the basic rate of income tax to around 32.5% - either way, something has gotta break.

Personally, I'd be happy to let the Scots have their independence, and good luck to them when they get it. But now would be the absolute worst possible time. If we granted them independence today, we'd probably have to take them back within eighteen months. If we wait 10 years and slowly help them to stabilize their economy then maybe, just maybe, it'll be a viable option.
 Lusipher
Joined: 9/7/2010
Msg: 452
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/2/2012 10:24:55 AM
Scotland has a sixth of the UK's population?

Since when?

More like just under a 12th. It only has about 5 and a half million people

London (including Greater London) by itself has more people than Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales put together.
 badge73
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 453
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/6/2012 7:33:19 AM
Scotland would not necessarily inherit the UK's triple A status rating if it went independent, credit rating agencies have warned.

Standard & Poor's, Moody's and Fitch have all hinted that a devolved Scotland should not expect to just be handed the top rating.

One agency told the Financial Times the rate could be a few notches below triple A.

There is also the question of where a lower-rated Scotland would borrow money from.

Most governments borrow from financial investors, including pensions funds. However, some funds will not lend to countries with ratings lower than triple A.

Scotland would also face a larger share of the UK's national debt.

Scotland's politicians have played down the ratings agencies warnings saying it is 'inaccurate' to suggest the country would not be granted a triple A status.

John Swinney, Scotland’s finance secretary, told the Financial Times the Scottish government had not sought opinion on the rating, but was confident of obtaining a triple A because 'it was difficult to deny the effectiveness and strength of the economy'.

In a report on the vulnerability of an independent Scotland, Jonathan Portes, director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, said an independent Scotland was 'not Greece, but not Norway either,' in financial terms.

The NIESR report read: 'Countries with external deficits and without central bank powers pay a premium on their government debt.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097006/An-independent-Scotland-triple-A-status-rating-agencies-warn.html#ixzz1lcGiEJrb
 chillicat
Joined: 11/27/2011
Msg: 454
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/6/2012 7:50:25 AM
i read some report yesterday..and i dont know if its aload of bollocks or not..? but they say if scotland does go independant..there there will be strict border controls set up to stop illegal immigrants from coming into england from scotland..plus there will be limits on scottish peoples movements coming into england as well..?
 ScottishIain74
Joined: 9/11/2011
Msg: 455
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/6/2012 2:18:42 PM

Because the national deficit includes an offset against those Scottish assets we bailed out in the banking crisis. So Scotland needs to realise that they'd have to take ownership of RBS & HBOS from us. Then you work out the total UK debt and give them their fair share by population.


What Scottish assets?

RBS and HBOS are/were private banks, owned by shareholders and traded on the London stock exchange. The majority of their (pre-crisis) shareholders and customer base are outside of Scotland. It was the UK government's decision to take majority ownership.

The government could also have chosen to just guarantee savers' and other account holders' deposits, letting the bank go to the wall and its customers go to other banks rather than opting to bail out shareholders. Likewise had Scotland been independent at the time then the Scottish government could have decided to do the same but only for accounts held with Scottish branches.
 Cute_N_Fluffy
Joined: 3/19/2011
Msg: 456
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/6/2012 4:36:15 PM
It will never happen , both countries will still be part of europe and people will be free to move between them as they currently are.

Scotland will go independent , being that their is no one voted for by the Scotish in westminster, as was said the other week their are more Pandas in Scotland than conservative MP's.

And when Scotland go independent they will reset the Scotish teritorial waters off the east coast which were changed in the 70's without consulting the the Scotish so that more gas and oil would be in English waters.
 Tuskadero
Joined: 1/25/2012
Msg: 457
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/8/2012 5:15:55 PM
What pisses me off is I'm Scottish but would'nt be Scottish or get a Scottish passport as I live 2mls over the border??
DOH!
 heyfiesta
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 458
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/12/2012 1:41:16 PM
All this shows what a mess it'll be to remove Scotland from the UK.

I wonder who will pay for it?
 tartanterry
Joined: 2/7/2012
Msg: 459
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 2:43:56 AM

All this shows what a mess it'll be to remove Scotland from the UK.

I wonder who will pay for it?


If the will of the Scottish electorate is to be independent then yes there will be costs but perhaps you dont understand the concept of wanting to be a proper nation.

Why is it so many English people (mainly tories) dont want to be part of the European Union yet are against Scotland not being part of the UK.
 chillicat
Joined: 11/27/2011
Msg: 460
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 3:38:03 AM

Why is it so many English people (mainly tories) dont want to be part of the European Union yet are against Scotland not being part of the UK


most normal english working class citizens will be glad to see the back of you and wont miss you being part of the UK what so ever..its the politicians and the rich elite that dont want yous to break away..and that is all down to money and greed..nothing else..
 heyfiesta
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 461
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 3:53:25 AM

If the will of the Scottish electorate is to be independent then yes there will be costs but perhaps you dont understand the concept of wanting to be a proper nation.


Have you considered the possibility that I do understand the concept and that I'd like to know who will bear the costs? After all, that was the question that I asked.


Why is it so many English people (mainly tories) dont want to be part of the European Union yet are against Scotland not being part of the UK.


There will be many reasons, and it won't be just Tory voters who want Britain out the EU (the BNP is firmly anti-EU yet draws its support from Labour heartlands) and want the retain the Union.

Self- determination for the UK as a whole, plus the traditional aspect of the union might be high on most lists.
 tartanterry
Joined: 2/7/2012
Msg: 462
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 4:02:28 AM
Well I for one will be voting for independence. Id much rather be governed by people who are in touch with the Scottish electorate rather than Westminster.

I'm not "British" in the slightest - I'm Scottish and as such would like my country to be independently governed.

I dont really understand the bile from certain parts of the English media and the people. As far as costs are concerned believe you me politicians waste lots more money pursuing senseless policies rather than what is to me a constitutional necessity. Britain or the UK is no longer relevant as an entity.

Every time David Cameron or politician of similar ilk opens his mouth on the subject it just adds to the YES vote.
 heyfiesta
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 463
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 4:13:37 AM

Well I for one will be voting for independence. Id much rather be governed by people who are in touch with the Scottish electorate rather than Westminster.


Have you heard of the Scottish Parliament?


I'm Scottish and as such would like my country to be independently governed.


As long as Scotland remains in the EU, that won't be happening. The EU oversees every piece of Scottish legislation, and so it effectively governs Scotland, sorry.


As far as costs are concerned believe you me politicians waste lots more money pursuing senseless policies rather than what is to me a constitutional necessity.


Do you hope the costs of independence will be borne by Scotland?
 tartanterry
Joined: 2/7/2012
Msg: 464
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 4:48:49 AM
Dunno why I'm bothering arguing with you but here goes.

The Scottish parliament only has control over certain issues. the real governance and control of finances comes from Westminster.

I think you really have a problem with the EU in that it governs what the UK does - yes tehre is European legislation on certain matters but it certainly does not govern.

As far as the costs of independence are concerned - I assume that will be borne by all parties involved - but you really are unaware of the growing feeling among the Scottish electorate. i dont expect you to understand but its attitudes like yours that certainly enhance the prospect of a yes vote. You dont seem to understand that many of us do NOT perceive ourselves as British.

I am not arguing with you on more because we plainly disagree and I get too angry as its a subject I'm passionate about - not from any dislike of England but from wanting my country to be a proper one in control of its own affairs. Maybe you would feel differently if we had the government in Edinburgh controlling the UK.
 heyfiesta
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 465
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 5:12:29 AM

The Scottish parliament only has control over certain issues. the real governance and control of finances comes from Westminster.

I think you really have a problem with the EU in that it governs what the UK does - yes tehre is European legislation on certain matters but it certainly does not govern.


The EU controls every aspect of legislation in the UK and every EU member state.


As far as the costs of independence are concerned - I assume that will be borne by all parties involved...


I asked as to whether or not you wished Scotland bear the costs. It's a simple 'yes' or 'no' question.


but you really are unaware of the growing feeling among the Scottish electorate. i dont expect you to understand but its attitudes like yours that certainly enhance the prospect of a yes vote. You dont seem to understand that many of us do NOT perceive ourselves as British.


My attitude? I haven't expressed any feelings on the topic one way or another. I've simply pointed out that independence will be a mess and wondered who would pay for it. And I fully understand that some Scots wish to be independent in the same way that some English desire not only independence from Scotland, but also independence from the rest of the UK and the EU as well.

England doesn't have a parliament. Have you any idea how ridiculous that is?


I am not arguing with you on more because we plainly disagree and I get too angry as its a subject I'm passionate about - not from any dislike of England but from wanting my country to be a proper one in control of its own affairs.


A nice thought, but once back in the EU should Scotland leave the UK, it won't be.
 up4meets
Joined: 1/9/2012
Msg: 466
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 5:21:39 AM
I believe that the Scottish people en masse are not as gullible as the 'Scottish Sun' would try to manipulate.
There will be a referendum which will result in a massive B!tch Slapping for Alex Salmond and his SNP cohorts and no seperation from the Union.

The SNP's Mr Toad and the Wicked Witch of the North will fade away into obscurity (or a cave somewhere for a spot of spider watching inspiration) with the knowledge that they gave it their best shot but lost out to the sensible Scottish voting electorate.


Bye Bye
 tartanterry
Joined: 2/7/2012
Msg: 467
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 5:26:47 AM
I believe that the Scottish people en masse are not as gullible as the 'Scottish Sun' would try to manipulate.
There will be a referendum which will result in a massive B!tch Slapping for Alex Salmond and his SNP cohorts and no seperation from the Union.

The SNP's Mr Toad and the Wicked Witch of the North will fade away into obscurity.

Bye Bye


I believe that the Scottish people en masse are not as gullible as "The Daily Mail, The The Daily Record, the BBC and all other Unionist aspects of the media" would try to manipulate.

There will be a referendum which will result in a narrowish up yours for David Cameron and his Tory/Labour/Lib Dem cohorts and separtion from the diseased union.

The UK Prime Minister (unctious moron) and the oompah-loompahs and the Wicked Witches and Warlocks of the South can then get on with governing England and Wales.
 chillicat
Joined: 11/27/2011
Msg: 468
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 5:50:39 AM

The UK Prime Minister (unctious moron) and the oompah-loompahs and the Wicked Witches and Warlocks of the South can then get on with governing England and Wales


if you feel so passionate about scottish independance..dont you think you should be doing somthing more constructive about it..? why not go out onto the streets of scotland and canvas for support or demonstrate outside holyrood or parliament..? whinging and moaning to us everyday on here aint going to help your cause much..we cant help you..most of us are sick of yous and want to see you gone..get out man and do somthing about it and leave us english working class people alone..
 heyfiesta
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 469
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 6:05:56 AM

There will be a referendum which will result in a narrowish up yours for David Cameron and his Tory/Labour/Lib Dem cohorts and separtion from the diseased union.


The opinion polls don't support your prediction:

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/category/scotland

Jan 2012

"There was a new Ipsos MORI Scotland poll out this morning, using the wording that Alex Salmond has suggested for the Scottish referendum.

“Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?”

Topline results were 37% Yes, 50% No, 13% Don’t know. Taking only those certain to vote boost support for YES slightly, shifting the balance to Yes 39%, No 50%. On the other hand, those saying NO were more likely to say they had definitely decided how to vote. "

"On full independence, 39% said they would vote in favour, 61% said they would vote against. "

Please refrain from making insulting comments about those who live south of the border.
 SGB2012
Joined: 1/2/2012
Msg: 470
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 6:08:29 AM
It's difficult for me to see Scottish Independence as anything other than a bad joke, especially considering that neither the Scottish Nationalist Party, nor the vast majority of the Scottish people actually want it.

The actual process of independence would be terribly complicated, a simple referendum would not do, you would need regional referendums even if this led to a patchwork quilt division. What happens to Scottish soldiers in English regiments, English Soldiers in Scottish regiments. Indeed what happens to any military assets held by the UK? Scotland is currently parasitic, economically speaking, from where will it get it's money. What happens to Berwick-Upon-Tweed? Is it subsumed into a nation it has no affinity for, which is dictatorial, or does it assume co-domionion status like Andorra shared between Spain and France, or in the past neutral Moresnet between Prussia and Belgium (or the netherlands or whatever it was). Would England get back the union subsidies that have fed Scotland for so long? Can we be certain that violence will not flare up at some point of the process, regardless of how the border is drawn there will be large numbers of English and/or Scots who find themselves on the wrong side of the border. What of the Monarchy? What happens to Northern Ireland? What happens to the British dependencies?
 tartanterry
Joined: 2/7/2012
Msg: 471
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 6:18:45 AM
I did not make any insulting comments about those south of the border - I referred to the politicians at Westminster. I think you will find that the nasty comments are coming from Englsih people aimed at us Scots who in general do not resort to tit for tat nonsense but will engage in positives about our own country which will come the time of the referendum result in a YES vote.

As for the comments of Chill Con Carne or whatever he is called - most if his are tongue in cheek nonsense so I'll take his latest ones in the same vein. What shall I be doing for the indepence cause? I'll be voting for it mate thats what.

As for the avove comment about Scotland being parasites - it depends on which economic report you read - the Daily Mail etc will highlight anything in support of Scotland being subsidised whereas those in favour of independence will highlight those economic reports which show the opposite to be the case - ie the tax take from Scotland is higher than the subsidy.

I'm not qualified enough to know which is true but like a growing number of my fellow Scots - I want my own country back.
 heyfiesta
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 472
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 6:22:57 AM

I did not make any insulting comments about those south of the border - I referred to the politicians at Westminster.


Thank you for clarifying.


I think you will find that the nasty comments are coming from Englsih people aimed at us Scots


If you see any such comments, report them. The moderators have stressed that any such posts will be removed.


As for the comments of Chill Con Carne or whatever he is called - most if his are tongue in cheek nonsense so I'll take his latest ones in the same vein.


Anf if they weren't, will you be able to reply to them? I'm still waiting for an answer to my question re the footing of the bill for independence.
 tartanterry
Joined: 2/7/2012
Msg: 473
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 6:26:24 AM
I would not report any comments to the mods - I'm big enough and ugly enough to take it - dont believe in censorship that takes place on here.

As I said Scotland and the Remainder of the UK will have to foot any bills resulting from Independence appropriately. Price worth paying.

No more comments from me - case adjourned till nearer the referendum.
 heyfiesta
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 474
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 6:31:47 AM

As I said Scotland and the Remainder of the UK will have to foot any bills resulting from Independence appropriately. Price worth paying.


So the rest of the UK will be forced to pay for something that they not only might not have wanted but also weren't give a vote upon?

And how will those costs be apportioned? Will Scotland pay 90%, 50%, or 10%? Who will decide the apportionment?


No more comments from me - case adjourned till nearer the referendum.




 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 475
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 7:15:07 AM

The EU controls every aspect of legislation in the UK and every EU member state.


100% of UK laws are passed through Westminster following the time honoured process of first reading, second reading, commitee stage, report stage and then third reading. This happens in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords and is followed by consideration of amendments and then finally royal assent. Claims that the EU make or control any UK laws are completely baseless. Once Scotland is independant it will be interesting to see what, if any, changes to this process are needed as Scotland will not have a second chamber to perform the vital function of keeping the politicians in check..........
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