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 mopar_runner
Joined: 9/11/2011
Msg: 76
Not giving sex away without the relationshipPage 4 of 38    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38)
OP, the first red flag that should go up is a woman using the dreaded F word. Yup, that one--friends!

It is well established via these forums that a woman knows within 13.653 nano-seconds whether she will ever sleep with a man. If her determination is yes, then a man can only move to the no list. There is no possibility to move from the no to the yes list. "Friends" is code for, "You can woo me all you like, but you're never gettin' any of this, Jack."

As soon as she starts in on the friends mantra, just bail out. I wish I had, it would have saved several months of being led along...
 Pinayto
Joined: 2/5/2011
Msg: 77
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/8/2012 10:26:46 AM
OP it means i refuse to get STD.....wut? ya i said it!
 Behind-Blue-Eyes_53
Joined: 12/19/2011
Msg: 78
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/8/2012 10:44:10 AM

lookinglifetime
OP it means i refuse to get STD.....wut? ya i said it!

Yeah go ahead and . Like a STR, LTR,or Marriage is some guarantee that you won't get a STD. Tell that to those who contracted HIV from their partner. Yep, that's some 100% guarantee there. Keep like you have all the answers.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 79
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/8/2012 11:33:50 AM
pay attention to how many men are whining about what they spend on women and THEIR expectations, blah, blah, blah....

Who cares? Just pay for your dates and then no one can whine about that. After a few dates, I'd certainly wonder why a woman was accepting dates with me if she didn't indicate she wanted to have sex with me, so I certainly would stop asking rather than whine about it. Just because guys are complaining about spending money for dates doesn't mean they are expecting sex because theuy are paying for dates. They could just as easily be not wanting to pay for dates with a woman when they don't see it going anywhere. Sex is just how a guy knows it's going somewhere. If a woman wanted to ask me out repeatedly on her dime and not have sex with me, that would have been ok, if I had nothing better to do.

You missed the point intimacy should be around the time frame of both individuals involved...not around yours, nor hers...

What you really mean is that the timetable ought to be yours, since I doubt you're willing to have sex sooner in order to compromise.

If a man were so shallow that he would walk away without a word because the relationship hadn't moved to the next level within his time frame, I say keep on walking and don't let the door hit you on the way out....buh bye.

As far as I was concerned, there was no relationship until I had sex with a woman and I didn't owe her any explanation for why I wasn't interested in another date with her. For that matter, as long as I am still having to ask for a date, I wouldn't owe a woman any explanation for not asking her out for another date. Until I have sex with a woman, there is no relationship and I owe her nothing. If you think that's shallow, it's only because you're frustrated with guys who won't bend to accomodate you and rationalizing it is easier than thinking there are worthwhile men who wouldn't date you because they expect sex sooner than you do. The fact is, everone has preferences and none are any shallower than any others.

and we women actually want to have deeper feelings to move it to that level.

I find that funny, given how many women have said that, yet been ready and willing to have sex long before they could have those ``deeper feelings'' (and I've never asked or pushed for it). So far, women have always been ready for sex in less time than I'd have been willing to wait, even though I that isn't all that long. Regardless of what women (or anyone else) says or will admit to, most people will have sex rather quickly (as in within a few dates).
 platypus_man
Joined: 8/29/2007
Msg: 80
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/8/2012 5:55:18 PM

Seriously; what does "not "giving sex away" without the relationship" mean in its entirity? Ive never heard that before

You must have been living in a cave for the past few decades. Most women think of sex as something they 'give' in return for something; love, money, whatever.
 SC67
Joined: 6/21/2009
Msg: 81
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/8/2012 7:55:49 PM
Very funny that the men all think she's looking for $$ to be spent on her, uptight, hate sex, blahblah & the women all say she just wants more than a one night stand, etc.

I think the women are probably more accurate. Guys, it's not always about getting a free dinner out of you. In fact, it's hardly ever about that. I'd say it's an urban myth. Courting her doesn't mean splurging on expensive dates. It might mean a picnic or walk in the park. It might mean watching TV at her house & (gasp!) talking about your day.

She wants to have sex with someone who won't bail on her the next day. She's not going to have sex & THEN hope it turns into a relationship & get pissed off it doesn't. She wants to know you first. Good for her for speaking her mind.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 82
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 12:40:18 AM

Most women think of sex as something they 'give' in return for something; love, money, whatever.


Maybe, but if I thought a woman saw things that way, I'd lose all interest. Someone who thinks she's doing me a favor is a turnoff.

First, a black-and-white distinction between "just sex" and "love" makes no sense to me--when sex is intense, it's erotic love. I'm also sure she's going to get just as much out of the encounter as I am, so why should either of us have to add anything to even things up? If she has three orgasms for each of mine, do I get to expect something more, in return for what I've given her?
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 83
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 1:15:40 AM

Definitely not givin sex away without the relationship


My response to a message like this would be "Definitely not having a relationship where either of us "gives away" sex. Good luck to you"

unless I had reason to believe she didn't actually mean the words she wrote, in which case I might give her the out "care to rephrase?" and see where the conversation went.

I understand the sentiment many women expressed here wanting to be clear that they're not into casual sex. But ladies, please understand the men who also don't want to have sex used as leverage over them. Both genders run the risk of being played, and neither likes it very much.
 ITWYLD
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 84
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 1:35:19 AM
It's not surprising to note that 'MOST' of the guys who are against this approach, are divorced.


Do you really expect candy for free these days????????????

Free meaning,.........without any sort of established relationship or commitment.

Seriously you guys????? Aren't there toll free numbers you can call for such things?
 LilacCircle
Joined: 2/6/2012
Msg: 85
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 1:54:46 AM
It means that she's not interested in you sexually but you past muster enough for her to maybe change her mind but only if you spend lots of money on her and spoil her. This might make her relent to have sex with you even if she finds it distasteful at first.

Sounds like sex is a trade off for her. She'll only do it if there's something better in it for her. She's a user and up tight and sexually repressed and I recommend you stay the heck away from her.

I feel sorry for her that she doesn't see sex and something wonderful and fun.
 semi_sane_jane
Joined: 3/10/2011
Msg: 86
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 4:29:37 AM

Most women think of sex as something they 'give' in return for something; love, money, whatever.
Actually, prostitutes are the only people who view sex this way. "Most women" think of sex as an intimate experience they prefer to share with a person they feel some level of connection with. The level of connection necessary for her to feel that desire will vary between different women, which is why some feel comfortable after a few dates, and others need a longer period of bonding and building intimacy in other areas before they're ready to have sex.

I understand some men view this period of time as having something withheld from them, or having to "earn" sex, and that false perception is where things tend to fall apart. There are a lot of ways to connect and bond that have nothing to do with sex, and if establishing a solid relationship is genuinely the goal, then the importance of these other areas is recognized, and it doesn't seem like a chore, or jumping through hoops to get a prize. It only feels that way when sex is the top priority, and the main reason for developing the relationship.

The irony of it is this: The more focused on sex a man is, the the more resentful he becomes when it's not forthcoming, and the less effort he's willing to put forth in growing the relationship in other ways. When women sense that disinterest, it seems to confirm their concerns that he may not actually want a relationship, and is just looking for sex, so she's less comfortable with becoming sexual. That comfort level has nothing to do with how much money is spent, or how much time passes. It doesn't matter if it's three dates, or three months, it's a matter of how genuine the connection feels. The absolute truth of the matter is this: the faster a women feels safe and comfortable with a man, the faster she's going to want to have sex with him. Not only do men who show a willingness to put a little more up front time and effort into building that emotional connection get laid sooner, they also get laid more often, and more enthusiastically than men who push women to put out before that comfort level is firmly established.

Make a woman feel safe, loved and cherished, and she won't be able to get enough of your sex. Act like she's obligated to boink you because you sprung for a few dinners, and you've turned her into a prostitute in YOUR mind... and not even a high end one, at that. It's hard to feel any desire for a man that's putting out that vibe. It's really that simple.

Wanna know the best part? Safe, loved and cherished won't cost you a dime. No amount of money could buy those feelings anyway. It's purely an emotional connection. Assuming she is attracted to you on the basic levels (ie: physical appearance, character, and personality) the rest of the equation is simple: Genuine desire to be with her, genuine interest in her thoughts and feelings, as well as a willingness to share yours with her, and a genuine concern for her well-being.
These are all necessary components of a healthy loving relationship anyway, which adds value to both partner's lives, so it really shouldn't be that much to ask, if the desire for a relationship is genuine, should it?

If you truly believe in your heart that sex is something women are using to manipulate you into "giving them" a relationship, it's time for some serious soul searching on your part. The very essence of a relationship is mutual benefit and happiness. If you don't see it that way, then I strongly urge you to reevaluate why you would pursue one, or create the impression that you want one. If you are leading a woman to believe that you want a relationship with her, then it's perfectly normal and reasonable for her to want and expect these things from you. Why resent that, or view it as adversarial? You could save yourself all the aggrevation of having those expectations placed on you in the first place by simply being more truthful, with her, and yourself, about what it is you really want.

If you're saying you want a relationship when you truly don't, just because that's what you think you need to do to get laid, that really tells you a lot of unflattering things about who you are as a human being, doesn't it? The worst part about that is that they're all true. And not only will a person like that have to work harder to get laid, because disingenuious intentions are very difficult to disguise completely, but he'll probably have to settle for mediocrity when he does, because the false pretense of "feelings" he brings to the table may be convincing enough get the panties to drop, but they will never inspire the fire inside a woman's soul that gets ignited when she knows she is truly and deeply loved. And we do know.

So if you have a time frame that is your utmost priority, or you're using disingenuious gestures or a set dollar amount that you feel you are willing to "give" in order to recieve sex, you're probably best served to put that on the table, and get the negotiations all taken care of up front. That way you will know that your investment will pay out the exact return you desire, and there won't be any confusion or undesirable expectations, on anyone's part. In all honesty, there is nothing disparaging intended by that suggestion. But if a person truly feels that acquiring sex is a transaction, then it is, for that person. Not saying it out loud doesn't change their reality at all. And if that's your reality, then it would only make sense to ensure the cost doesn't exceed the value, so clarifying the terms just seems so much more efficient.
 bethesdafoodie
Joined: 1/2/2012
Msg: 87
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 5:48:55 AM

Very funny that the men all think she's looking for $$ to be spent on her, uptight, hate sex, blahblah & the women all say she just wants more than a one night stand, etc.


Generalizing what all men think is bad mmkay, kind of like generalizing that all women are gold diggers...



I think the women are probably more accurate. Guys, it's not always about getting a free dinner out of you. In fact, it's hardly ever about that. I'd say it's an urban myth. Courting her doesn't mean splurging on expensive dates. It might mean a picnic or walk in the park. It might mean watching TV at her house & (gasp!) talking about your day.


I do think this actually happens more than you're willing to admit it does, mostly in my age category when people haven't gotten their careers even remotely started for the most part.
99% of my friends are females and quite a few of them have admitted to going on dates purely for a free dinner, and trust me they're not going on a picnic or watching tv at her house.
It's not an urban myth when it happens and it can be expected of a guy, I'm not going to say that there aren't females out there that want relationships and wouldn't mind watching TV or going on a picnic; but living in a city my personal history shows that there are plenty of college coeds going out on dates purely for the free meals.



She wants to have sex with someone who won't bail on her the next day. She's not going to have sex & THEN hope it turns into a relationship & get pissed off it doesn't. She wants to know you first. Good for her for speaking her mind.


There are as many if not more players on the female side of the equation than there are male players. I hang out ocassionally at predominately college aged bars(I know the bartenders), and I see the same female faces going home with different guys every single time I'm there.

So tell me, are you a proponent of splitting the bills on every date? If not, why not?

If she wants to know me first and have a relationship before sex ever enters the equation I have no problem with that, as long as she doesn't use it as a bargaining chip later down the line.
If you're going to tell me that women using sex as a form of power is an urban myth, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to take you seriously again, that would be up there with the lady that insisted women don't rape men ever.
 semi_sane_jane
Joined: 3/10/2011
Msg: 88
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 6:04:07 AM

99% of my friends are females and quite a few of them have admitted to going on dates purely for a free dinner
A handful of young female college students (read: just past their teens and most likely broke) is the sampling you're using to make your assumptions about how all women think? Interesting approach.

Just out of curiosity, did you happen to interview the young men they went out with to find out what their intentions were on these dates? I remember the guys I knew in college, and they were cool people, but most of them weren't looking for Mrs. Right at that stage of the game.
 RIPTIDE59
Joined: 11/9/2011
Msg: 89
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 6:07:10 AM
re: msg 87: I've always had a certain amount of respect for your opinion. You're partially correct. But, admit; For some "women" sex avoidance has become a cottage industry. If avoidance isn't an issue; rationing can be. This is goin on ; you know it ; I know it: Women that I've met from this site tell me they've got a pretty good thing goin here. So, don't deny. It's happening. And, it's a man's fault for letting it happen. In my business, I charge as much as I can get away with.

Next, somewhere in your monologue , you mention 3 mos. without sex!!!! Now, that 's a health hazard!!!! Hopefully this poor guy has some other form of release. If not this idea of "holding out" for your best deal is very unhealthy for the male population. Do you like us enough to care about our physical well-being? Really?

A pretty serious female poster on here takes your side. She makes all of your talking points as well. When pressed on the issue, she admits to giving her man what he wanted on the 1st date. "He panned out" she admits. I'm glad. She adores him. Just like anything else in life; "no risk. no gain." No, our romantic interests are not a business. I still think men are more aware of this. However, a man's loyalty is not for the taking. We give our favors away when we are damn good and ready as well. Not until. There is one way to make a man a lot more generous with all ALL of his assets. There is one way to make relationships last; crossing her legs gets a woman nowhere. Pressuring a woman for sex gets a man nowhere. We're all goin nowhere FAST.

@ msg 88: Very True. Not only college age, many women my age, (53), have admitted using this tactic. Probably due to the poor economy. I know it sounds horrible. But when unemployment is over 10%, people come up with all kinds of self preservation skills.
This issue only reinforces the role of the father. We must instill in our daughters self worth and the ability to make $ without depending on a male. Seems to me we have not moved ahead on that still. Men are still getting played for our ability to be a "provider".
 AnEvilgenius
Joined: 11/8/2011
Msg: 90
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:02:07 AM
If you are ever lucky enough to learn how fulfilling it is to make love to a woman's mind and soul as well as her body you will understand what the phrase means and the reason for it.
 bethesdafoodie
Joined: 1/2/2012
Msg: 91
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:33:11 AM

A handful of young female college students (read: just past their teens and most likely broke) is the sampling you're using to make your assumptions about how all women think? Interesting approach.

Just out of curiosity, did you happen to interview the young men they went out with to find out what their intentions were on these dates? I remember the guys I knew in college, and they were cool people, but most of them weren't looking for Mrs. Right at that stage of the game.


If you read the post I was responding to, you would understand that she said it's an urban myth that females want a free dinner, which is as ridiculous as saying that females never rape males.

I never made an assumption about how all women think, my whole point was to say that SOME women do want freem eals.

I totally agree that some guys aren't looking for Mrs. Right, just like some females aren't looking for Mr. Right; but at the same time I do want an actual relationship and have been strung along for the free meals.

So it's not an urban legend that females want a free meal, why you're trying to make the guys sound like the immoral ones in this case I have no idea.

Really, 25 year olds are just past their teens?

Also your idea that only college graduates are broke is laughable in today's economy, they're not the ones getting foreclosed on, they're not the ones that borrowed more than they make; I suspect there will be a huge influx of people looking for free meals by going on dates because of this economy.

I've been in what I considered a "relationship" only to be dropped when she found someone she perceived to be better, the whole idea that no sex without a relationship rests on the fallible idea that a relationship is tangible, that it is going to last; what do you think happens when two people are sexually incompatible finally have sex?

I'm genuinely curious, also how do you quantify when someone is in a relationship?
This reminds me so much of people wanting to wait until marriage, I say good for whoever wants to wait until X happens, but don't be surprised when others don't share your opinion of when the moment is right.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 92
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:37:53 AM
A good response to this statement would be, "Well, I don't give the relationship away until I know what the sex will be like. Looks like we're incompatible."
 bethesdafoodie
Joined: 1/2/2012
Msg: 93
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:44:55 AM

A good response to this statement would be, "Well, I don't give the relationship away until I know what the sex will be like. Looks like we're incompatible."


And we have a winner, I would buy you a drink... but we both know how that would go.

The real question is whether people would be opposed to a contract laid out to stipulate that thou shall not be frigid in the sack once the relationship is established..

There's a reason that car dealers can get busted for selling you a lemon car!
 Consigliori
Joined: 1/7/2008
Msg: 94
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:47:46 AM

Regardless of what women (or anyone else) says or will admit to, most people will have sex rather quickly (as in within a few dates).


If I say that has been my experience also - does it mean I'm putting out too soon?
 petya_mila
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 95
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:49:14 AM

Also your idea that only college graduates are broke is laughable in today's economy, they're not the ones getting foreclosed on, they're not the ones that borrowed more than they make; I suspect there will be a huge influx of people looking for free meals by going on dates because of this economy.


I dunno. Maybe. This sort of behavior baffles me, so I can't really conceive of people doing it. No, it doesn't mean that people don't do it. I more got the sense from the poster you were initially responding to that she felt it was an urban legend that ALL women automatically want a free meal. Not sure where the manrape comes in here, but yes, of course men can get raped, and not just "prison rape" either.


the whole idea that no sex without a relationship rests on the fallible idea that a relationship is tangible, that it is going to last;


Well, then, are you saying that sex IS an important part of getting a fledgling relationship off the ground? I suggest you tell that to the man who was in the forums a few weeks ago mentioning that he always, 100 percent of the time, dumps a woman after he bangs her -- including the girl he was with a couple of months and liked a great deal. Once he "did" her, she was done. So in that case, a relationship WAS established and sex killed it -- at least for him. He said nothing about their sex drives or sexual appetites being incompatible, just that he was over it the moment he blew his load inside her.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 96
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:55:24 AM
If you truly believe in your heart that sex is something women are using to manipulate you into "giving them" a relationship, it's time for some serious soul searching on your part.

A thread search would be simpler and less prone to personal bias. You'll find a countless number of threads started by women who thought sex would lead to a relationship. From personal experience I can also say that everytime I have sex, a woman wants a relationship. Fortunately, I don't have sex with women I wouldn't consider relationship material, so that hasn't presented a problem, except when I was trying to avoid getting into a relationship with anyone. I had to resort to escorts for that, even though two of them ended up wanted a relationship as well.

Assuming she is attracted to you on the basic levels (ie: physical appearance, character, and personality) the rest of the equation is simple:

If she's attracted to me on those levels, the entire question would be moot. I determine a woman's interest on those levels by whether or not she'll kiss me. If she'll kiss me, she'll sleep with me by the end of the next date, so the equation is quite simple and after that first kiss, I've never worried about it. However, a woman who doesn't want to kiss me can't be all that interested in me.

So if you have a time frame that is your utmost priority,

When I make that connection you mention in your first paragraph, women have sex with me. I know how long that takes and so far, I've never had to wait as many dates as I'd probably have been willing to wait. If we didn't connect, then I don't see what point there would be to continuing to date. If a woman needed a long time to connect, in general, that would be an indication of other aspects of her personality that would make us incompatible. I didn't want to date someone who is not emotionally available and I don't get along well with people who are indecisive and not self confident. A time frame served a useful purpose for me.

You also aren't really saying that you don't make a time frame a priority. What you're saying is that your time frame is THE priority, since obviously you just expect yours to overule someone else's. I'm sorry, but I had no intention of waiting an indeterminate length of time for a woman to decide whether or not she liked me as if what I wanted wasn't important.

But if a person truly feels that acquiring sex is a transaction, then it is, for that person.

Underneath all of the lofty verbiage, a relationship of any sort is a transaction. Neither you nor anyone else would form a romantic relationship or even a friendship if you didn't get something out of it. You said as much when you stated that relationships are supposed to be mutually beneficial (not to mention stating explicitly what you expected to get from a relationship: a connection, a feeling of safety, trust, etc.)

And if that's your reality, then it would only make sense to ensure the cost doesn't exceed the value, so clarifying the terms just seems so much more efficient.

Well, you're doing exactly that. You expect to have things like a connection, trust, a relationship and whatever else you want as a condition for having sex. If I don't want to provide those things before having sex, that doesn't mean I see all of this as a transaction and you don't. It means we have a difference of opinion on what value we assign to what we are gaining and offering. Clarifying the terms would be more efficient, but since no one wants to admit he/she isn't an altruist with only the purist motives, I wouldn't expect that to happen.
 Whisky_River
Joined: 9/12/2010
Msg: 97
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:59:43 AM

If you are ever lucky enough to learn how fulfilling it is to make love to a woman's mind and soul as well as her body you will understand what the phrase means and the reason for it

At Last...a man who gets it!!
 bethesdafoodie
Joined: 1/2/2012
Msg: 98
Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 8:02:26 AM

Guys, it's not always about getting a free dinner out of you. In fact, it's hardly ever about that. I'd say it's an urban myth. Courting her doesn't mean splurging on expensive dates. It might mean a picnic or walk in the park. It might mean watching TV at her house & (gasp!) talking about your day.


This is what I was initially referring to, I'd say it's a bit of a stretch for her to mean that we think ALL women are like that, the way I read it is that she claims that it's hardly ever about that.

My argument is that more and more people are out there for the free meals rather than actually connecting with another human being.

I dunno. Maybe. This sort of behavior baffles me, so I can't really conceive of people doing it.


Murder baffles me, but I can conceive of why people will commit murder/rape/burglary. Just because something is out of the norm doesn't mean it doesn't happen.



Well, then, are you saying that sex IS an important part of getting a fledgling relationship off the ground? I suggest you tell that to the man who was in the forums a few weeks ago mentioning that he always, 100 percent of the time, dumps a woman after he bangs her


That's a whole different can of issues, how about all the divorces caused by a lack of sexual intimacy? We're talking about people that have long since moved past the "relationship" stage and are married. Sex IS an important part of MOST relationships, both to get it off the ground and to keep the balls in the air.

Granted, I'm don't necessarily want to rush any relationship, but there does need to be some form of intimacy(kissing,cuddling, FFS holding hands) early on, otherwise you're essentially spending time/money/energy on a friend, not a possible future partner.

I think people that drop someone after sex because of a lack of interest are as ridiculous as people that have to have a specific point before they'll get intimate.

If both parties are consenting Adults and the moment/hormones/stars are aligned, go for it; you'll realize the next morning what type of person you just slept with really is.

He/She will either be cuddling with you in the morning or will be long gone.

*Experiences may vary*
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 99
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 8:06:52 AM
And we have a winner, I would buy you a drink... but we both know how that would go.


Scotch on the rocks for me. Or maybe a Guinness...
 RIPTIDE59
Joined: 11/9/2011
Msg: 100
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Not giving sex away without the relationship
Posted: 2/9/2012 8:08:39 AM
@98 That's very nice, Whiskey and Evil. What does this have to do with someone (m/f) using sexuality as a tool for attaining all kinds of security? Seriously, Evil, would you be sitting around while this woman makes her mind up about you? Last time I checked we're human beings too, not commodities. Oh, while she's trying to make her business decision you have the pleasure of entertaining her.
msg 86: VERY HEALTHY ATTITUDE.
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