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 drouk
Joined: 5/31/2010
Msg: 126
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Wearing the burka in the UK.Page 6 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
Msg 123

The “freedom of choice” argument is always wheeled out when the burka is questioned. Rather conveniently, some muslim women have stated that it is their “choice” to wear the burka and as such their word has to be taken. I don’t deny I am sceptical, very sceptical and feel that by allowing its use we are simply colluding with the bullies against those who are forced behind the veil.


Wow. So, you are telling us that even if those women told you that they are happy to wear that garment, you'd be "very sceptical"(sic)? What if I told you that this thing or that thing you do is probably a result of you being forced to do it by of people around you, and that no matter what you told me, I'd have a hard time believing you? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? These women haven't harmed you and I doubt they write on forums that they don't like the way you dress, so although I don't think what you've written make you a racist/islamophobe, you seem to be quite intolerant.


As for “intolerance” - intolerance of what exactly? Intolerance of oppressive religions and cultures? Absolutely yes!

But who has decided that these women were oppressed? you decided that, and you've even written that even if these women told you that you were wrong, you may not believe them. So yes, I think you are prejudiced (because you are basing your opinion on no fact/little evidence and you are not open to be proved otherwise) and intolerant (because you are having a go at people who are not hurting anyone)

Msg 118

I want no part of it and think the UK should remain a place where people are given freedom, not allowed to be oppressed...

You mean that people should be given the freedom to wear what they want? or you think that banning that outfit would give these women more freedom? quite confusing...
 Aparctias
Joined: 6/24/2010
Msg: 127
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/8/2012 10:39:25 AM
Hmm being banned, well I think it should but it would be hard to enforce the law. The police would need more resources, which I doubt the government would give.

As for accepting the burka, I think people have every right to be against it. I never really liked the whole "lets not offend people" mentality that people have these days. You are always going to offend someone regardless of whether or not you mean to. When you accept things that you find "wrong" you are basically saying it's okay! Well it's not OKAY, if you feel the need to be against something that is wrong, screw their feelings.

The burka is wrong and I'm against it, so yeah I do think it shouldn't be allowed because I'm not willing to accept it. Having said that though you can just see what happens in France and see if that works or not.

If it doesn't work, it probably won't work here to be honest.
 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 128
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Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/8/2012 10:42:55 AM

Hmm being banned, well I think it should but it would be hard to enforce the law


Erm .... I mean how are we gonna spot those wearing burkas? If we can manage fining people for littering and spitting and bad car parking but we cant spot a bleedin' burka?

True - we might have problems though if we need an identity parade! Didn't think of that one!
 Aparctias
Joined: 6/24/2010
Msg: 129
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/8/2012 10:46:16 AM
Well when I say hard, I mean you'd need more police to do the job and we don't have the resources. I'd rather have police focus on more important things to be honest. Like I said it's better just to see what happens if france and see how they handle it and how it works out. Then we'll have a better idea if it's a good idea or not.

Plus I doubt they are just going to take if off because some police officer tells them to. Then not all will pay a fine, which would require going to court. It is a part of their culture it's not something they'd give up easy. There were a few articles about how the french police didn't even bother giving out fines and just ignoring those wearing them to focus on other things. That was in april 2011 though, I can't seem to find anything newer about it though, to see if there are still problems. Which I'm sure there are.
 Geordie_Colin
Joined: 6/20/2011
Msg: 130
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/8/2012 3:28:22 PM
Yes I have talked to other feminists who are clued up. You are now assuming that my opinion is not based on knowledge which is quite patronising. I also don't claim to speak for all feminists as it is not uniform. My argument was against someone telling me what feminists think. Therefore I was arguing what a lot of feminists do think. You are not liberating someone by telling them what they can't wear. I didn't say my opinion overrides other people's just that the opinion to ban the burka isn't from the feminist view point.

Conditioning.
Would you agree that it was social conditioning that made men view women as second class citizens in both this Country and around the World from cavemen times?
If you agree with that statement then would you not agree that conditioning is why so many that wear the Burka do so quite happily?
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 131
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/8/2012 4:13:35 PM
msg 128
<div class="quote">The OP sees the burka as a symbol of oppression. Fair enough, but I do have to stand back and ask her if she has actually talked to any women that wear it. My guess would be that she has not.
I have, and every woman Ive talked to has seen it as there own choice and choose to wear it, nor would they be beaten up or shunned if they chose not to wear it.
This is in Cambridge though and I am well aware that not everywhere is the same.
How many women in the full burkha have you spoken to? Where and when did you have these conversations, in their homes, in the streets, in the supermarket? I don't actually know ANY women who wear it, my muslim friends just wear the hijab or some don't cover their heads. I am interested because you've met and spoken to women in full burkha. I am curious.



<div class="quote">The burka should be banned along with anything else that hides the persons identity in public.
i don't know how it could be done effectively... but i do agree with the sentiment...
If people walked around in white stormtrooper outfits, i'd be against it as well...
Not because I'm scared of them, I just naturally feel uneasy, mistrust people hiding themselves, I guess that makes me an "empiraphobe"? sorry not a huge star warz fan...
 monobloke
Joined: 3/5/2012
Msg: 132
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Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/9/2012 6:01:12 AM
Would muslims be open to someone of a different ethnic group asking;

1, How she feels about wearing the full monty Muslim attire?
2, Would she give the same answer if asked the question in private?
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 133
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/9/2012 7:47:04 AM
Women's day discussion on the burkha from many sides...
today's Independant

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/independent-bath-literature-festival-do-cultural-dress-codes-empower-or-control-7545949.html
 flossiescratchwood
Joined: 2/23/2012
Msg: 134
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/9/2012 11:10:08 AM
The burqa is an outward symbol of something nasty lurking in the woodshed .Or so we think .If these women ARE truly repressed and abused does anyone really believe this repression will stop or their status be elevated if we force a few ( and it is a few) to remove a bit of cloth we don't like the look of? It's gesture politics.

Why make so much fuss about the repressive relationships that Muslim women wearing the burqa MIGHT be in anyway? They are such a tiny percentage of the population when compared to the overall incidence of domestic abuse in this country( and that's just the reported incidences). Who knows what goes on behind closed doors and how often are people surprised when a woman finally reveals the unpleasant things her lovely in public husband did to her? And surprise surprise she never wore a burqa.

So if we're really worried about these 'poor' Muslim women or the rest of them that suffer in private maybe we need to think about greater problems than the soft target of a piece of cloth , the removal of which lessens our unease but does nothing more.

Lots of people seem to think when in Rome etc and that we should impose 'our' values on them as they do on us when in their countries. So if we believe our state has the right to force women not to wear the burqa , do we accept that other states have the right to force their indigenous women to wear it?

I do wonder which of our cultural values these women are supposed to be respecting or aspiring to . Is there some ancient tradition that states ' thou shalt not cover your face because we want to see your ugly moosh'? Or is it rather more a case of we have such a nation of little hoody wearing thugs and helmet wearing hooligans that we have to force everyones hats off their heads? And because we don't want to be accused of double standards , those law abiding Muslim women must too be forced to take off their headgear.If that's the best we can come up with , rules based on the lowest common denominator that's a sad indictment of our values and culture.
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 135
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/9/2012 7:22:19 PM
What is so hard to understand?
Anything that completely hides a person's identity is not really compatible with the way this society operates...
Someone already posted about the problems of burkha-d women collecting children from a nursery, basic security issues, aside from health and safety...
I feel the same about hoodies in malls and shops.. The public and the shops should have the right to ask people to remove them...
No-one is asking muslim women to remove their headgear... It's the burkha specifically or the niquab; which completely cover the woman's body (whatever) and whole face...is the issue.
anyone who habitually completely hides their identity in public, for whatever reason will tend to be seen as an outsider, difficult to integrate because in this culture we are used to looking at people's faces when we communicate. It's a fairly universal trait, actually...
Now when a western person goes to an islamic state, they are told that showing their legs on the beach is offensive and asked to respect the culture of the country they are vistiting or living in. that country will not change it's values and traditions for a visitor, immigrant, new citizen or old resident. Nor are they expected to. When we read things in the papers about brits having sex in saudi and getting busted, many of us are like "Duh! we ALL know how it is there, so when in rome..Behave yourselves!" and we lack sympathy...
Yet when it's the case of expecting the culture, customs, of this country to be respected, adhered to, why am i considered a bully, racist bad person? Why the double standard?

"Muslims feminists, such as Mona Eltahawy and Fatiha Amara, have on separate occasions, despite Sarkozy's anti-Muslim bias, supported his ban on the burqa. In opposing the burqa and niqab on the grounds that such a practice disempowers women by obliterating their public identities, Eltahawy, Amara and Kenney seem to be on common ground. The veils, they argue, symbolically remove women's public identity, and at this level they preserve patriarchal gender norms that give men a monopoly over public space." http://worldpress.org/Americas/3855.cfm

I disagree with the writer of this article, but found myself agreeing with the muslim feminists discussed here...
 Pandora0237
Joined: 11/21/2010
Msg: 136
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 4:51:25 AM
Message 141,

I do agree with lots you said, particularly stressing the differentiation between the hijab, and a burkha, the latter removing identity, and making normal social interaction impossible, and that is my biggest problem with it, it bars women from truly being able to communicate and interact with the communities they inhabit and are part of. Communication is only 7% verbal, and the rest is made up of tone of voice, and body language, of which facial expression is a massive part, it does not take a genius to realise any social interaction whilst clad in a burkha is seriously diminished.

I do think tho that although this thread was talking about Britain, this then means that the natural discussion that then ensues regarding respect for other cultures kinda skews a big part of the issue, and how women in countries where it is enforced feel, where the purdah that women are required to follow, is not a statement of cultural identity borne in a foreign land, but is imbued in every facet of life, from what you can wear, to not being educated, or even being allowed to write down your thoughts.

http://www.imtiazdharker.com/poems/show

Please read this poem, it conveys how lots of woman must feel, and really makes you realise that for many human beings, we may do something, but there is often a whole range of complex thoughts and responses that are connected with it, that are often unexpressed and unrealised, and in the case of a burkha, most definitely unseen too, and yet they are undoubtedly and strongly felt, and may well be by the women we see clad in black walking our streets as well.

Women do have the right to choose what to wear, but they have the right to true freedom of information too, which would enable them to make truly informed choices. If apparel is enforced, through fear, or cultural expectation, or that you would be shunned or worse if you chose differently, then thats not really a choice at all.....
 monobloke
Joined: 3/5/2012
Msg: 137
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Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 7:04:15 AM
The women who wear the Muslim 'Full Monty' want to project their modesty.

What we westerners can't see apart fom a gorgeous eye or a well turned ankle fuels our imagination and draws our attention to them which sort of defeats their point.

It would be an eye opener if they fell (A over T) in the high street revealing a full set of sexy lingerie c/w sussies now wouldn't it?
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 138
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Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 9:22:08 AM

What is so hard to understand?
Anything that completely hides a person's identity is not really compatible with the way this society operates...
Someone already posted about the problems of burkha-d women collecting children from a nursery, basic security issues, aside from health and safety...
I feel the same about hoodies in malls and shops.. The public and the shops should have the right to ask people to remove them...
No-one is asking muslim women to remove their headgear... It's the burkha specifically or the niquab; which completely cover the woman's body (whatever) and whole face...is the issue.
anyone who habitually completely hides their identity in public, for whatever reason will tend to be seen as an outsider, difficult to integrate because in this culture we are used to looking at people's faces when we communicate. It's a fairly universal trait, actually...

Don't get me wrong, I basically agree. And I believe that the delusions which cause them to WANT to cover up in such a way, ARE designed to "disempower", and perpetuate the patriarchal systems, which such religions have long championed, to the detriment of women.
BUT, I feel that rational discourse and persuasion to remove them voluntarily, is the way to go, rather than some statutory 'ban'.
It's a bit worrying that the government seem to whipping up this hysteria about women covering their faces, at the same time as they're saying that anyone in possession of a "V for Victory Mask", is intent on lawbreaking.

And what about people wearing pollution masks on bicycles, or wearing a scarf across your face on a cold day..?
Many people in Japan wear surgical masks all the time, when in public. Not for any reasons of morality, or 'modesty' but to avoid germs, and pollution.
Are you suggesting that the 'state' has the 'right' to demand we display our faces when in public..?

In these days of surveillance cameras, and 'big brother' like tactics, would it not be better, to persuade the women who choose to dress in such a way, to cease to adhere to this bronze-age gibberish, of their own free will..?
Otherwise we run the risk of becoming as dictatorial and oppressive, as the regimes where these practices are enforced.

Gentle education is the key, I feel, rather than 'objection', 'disapproval', or even the 'fear' talked about previously.
Give people the right information, and they will often make the right choices.
I always used that approach with my kids when they were younger, rather than confrontation, or attempting to be dictatorial.
In other words: " the burka..? Oh yeah, just ignore it, it's just a 'phase' they're going through. They'll 'grow out of it', by themselves."
Such religious practices will inevitably 'die a natural death'.
Because it's bollux.
IMO
 drouk
Joined: 5/31/2010
Msg: 139
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Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 9:54:04 AM
Msg 141

What is so hard to understand?


Maybe this bit:


Anything that completely hides a person's identity is not really compatible with the way this society operates...


I don't get it: how does a burqa-wearing woman gets in the way of the way this society operates? is she stopping traders from trading, builders from building, students from studying or POF ladies from replying to messages? I don't see what is not compatible here. Sure, it's an unpleasant sight, but how legitimate is it to just say "Oh, I don't like seeing this therefore it should be banned".



I feel the same about hoodies in malls and shops..


Well, I think you are showing some intolerance here. You know that there are people out there who don't feel safe when they are around black people, right? Should we accommodate them too or just tell them to mind their own business?


anyone who habitually completely hides their identity in public, for whatever reason will tend to be seen as an outsider, difficult to integrate because in this culture we are used to looking at people's faces when we communicate.


Maybe the women who wear a burqa don't want to communicate with other people. Strange, I've read so many times on these forums that "no reply is a reply" but now I'm reading that not wanting to communicate and integrate is wrong. So confusing...


Now when a western person goes to an islamic state, they are told that showing their legs on the beach is offensive and asked to respect the culture of the country they are vistiting or living in. that country will not change it's values and traditions for a visitor, immigrant, new citizen or old resident. Nor are they expected to. When we read things in the papers about brits having sex in saudi and getting busted, many of us are like "Duh! we ALL know how it is there, so when in rome..Behave yourselves!" and we lack sympathy...


The problem with this kind of argument is that some (most?) of these women were born in the UK, so this is their country just as much as it is yours. By the way, having sex in a public place is illegal in the UK too...



Yet when it's the case of expecting the culture, customs, of this country to be respected, adhered to, why am i considered a bully, racist bad person? Why the double standard?


But who gets to define those customs which should be respected? Should we ban everything that is unusual, new, seems to come from abroad (and how would we define those terms)? This is the problem I have with a lot of posters of this thread, they keep saying (I'm paraphrasing) that wearing a burqa is not part of the British way of life: should the Government of Her Majesty be in charge of saying what is and what is not part of British lifestyle? how about just letting people do whatever they want as long as they are not hurting anyone? aren't freedom and tolerance British values?

Msg 142


Communication is only 7% verbal, and the rest is made up of tone of voice, and body language, of which facial expression is a massive part, it does not take a genius to realise any social interaction whilst clad in a burkha is seriously diminished.


As I wrote above, maybe these women don't want to communicate...
 dwight_the
Joined: 7/4/2010
Msg: 140
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Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 10:02:33 AM

Now when a western person goes to an islamic state, they are told that showing their legs on the beach is offensive and asked to respect the culture of the country they are vistiting or living in. that country will not change it's values and traditions for a visitor, immigrant, new citizen or old resident. Nor are they expected to. When we read things in the papers about brits having sex in saudi and getting busted, many of us are like "Duh! we ALL know how it is there, so when in rome..Behave yourselves!" and we lack sympathy...

What does Islamic states have to do with British women wearing Muslim clothing?

Do you know that police and other public officials are not allowed to wear locks in Caribbean states ?
Should the UK impose similar bans ?

As mentioned before sex in public is illegal in most countries .
 Pandora0237
Joined: 11/21/2010
Msg: 141
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 10:50:21 AM
a couple of further thoughts:

whilst it is good that some men are actually arguing the case for women to have a choice, I still think they have missed the point of how much of a real choice it is, but I said all that earlier, so I ll move on to this...

Can I ask if exactly the same reasons were put forward for men to wear the Burkha, (matriarchal society etc) and their ability to interact and communicate was severely curtailed, not to mention the physical unpleasantness, would they mind wearing one, and how would it make them feel. Go and read the poem too that I posted earlier, its a very moving account as it really makes you think.

Also, message 145,

you questioned how society would not still operate because women are wearing the burkha and mentioned things like:

'Is she stopping traders from trading, builders from building, students from studying',

maybe not, but it would severely curtail her if SHE chose to negotiate business dealings, or build a house (although would eliminate the need for sunscreen?? - do they have to worry about vit D deficiency too??) , or studying led to her wanting to teach herself, would she be as successful at educating if she was fully covered up...
A burkha wearing lady can exist in society, but if everyone wore the outfit, and our facial expressions were never exposed in our public lives, I do not think society would operate very successfully, and that in itself should say something about how women are diminish by wearing it, we don t all wear one because we know that so many, if not all of our daily public and necessary interactions would be wierd, confusing, and misunderstood if we all did...

I do not advocate a ban, but agree with 144 that rational discourse is the way to go.

147: I think Charity was just reminding us of the double standards that operate, we visit Islamic states and are told to respect their cultural beliefs, and yet when she defends our own culture, (and British women do not traditionally wear the burkha) she is called a bully, or a racist. Our culture may be praised for its tolerance, but that should not mean we will therefore accept injustice, or the fact that information about the burkha is not given in an even handed way. I think in Germany in the second WW it was known as propaganda, and I m sure some of these women are unlikely to be given pamphlets by more moderate muslims on arguments for and against the hijab/burkha etc...
 flossiescratchwood
Joined: 2/23/2012
Msg: 142
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 11:07:27 AM
Whilst to me the burqa and niqab( different items by the way) are things I instinctively don't like we're not doing those women any favours if we ban them.And no amount of heart rending, emotive poetry will change that.

Charity it doesn't matter if the Muslim feminists you quote support a ban.Muslim feminists aren't right just because you agree with them.They themselves will know that if they truly support a woman's right to choose( however misguided or conditioned they may feel it is) they are on dodgy ground taking away their right to wear it.They , and any other feminists might do well to be less pre-occupied with what women are wearing and better occupied working to secure better life opportunities for those women they consider repressed.They I feel have unfortunately fallen foul of going along with gesture politics. From what I read the ban in France has led to NO convictions and nor is it likely to.What it has led to is much higher incidence of public abuse, both verbal and physical including attempts to pull veils off women because it's now open season on women who refuse to remove their coverings.It has given a new bunch of bullies the go ahead to treat women terribly as well as the other bunch of Muslim 'bullies' .As if Muslim women don't get enough grief already for just wearing a headscarf.( anyone fancy being spat at and called Mrs.Bin Laden on the school run?)

What does it matter what conditions other nations impose on westerners when we visit? Is this some sort of tit for tat? Shouldn't we want better than that? The difference between autocratic Islamic states and 'liberal' western societies is often there in those places peoples rights of any sort are of no concern to the authorities .It might be a good idea to think that one over before we go along the lines of thinking 'they do it so why shouldn't we?

The state should keep it's nose out of matters of personal identity.Rather than banning the burqa and niqab maybe people should retain the right to accept only what they want on their own premises for reasons of identity, security, health and safety, jobs etc( much the situation now) but without having to tiptoe around religious and cultural sensitivities and without unecessary appeasement. Fine, wear your face covering garb but accept any social or economic consequences that come of it and don't expect special treatment.People will soon enough make their own decisions about what is best for them.
 HuggableHarry
Joined: 4/4/2011
Msg: 143
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 3:50:03 PM
Cause my baby's got
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Angel Eyes,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPbjnvEDvPc
 monobloke
Joined: 3/5/2012
Msg: 144
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History
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 5:05:05 PM
For a young Muslim woman to go against conforming to the traditions within a muslim family and their standing within their community must take real courage. If she does not conform then she would be regarded as bringing shame on her family which would bring trouble for her.
Women who were born in the UK and raised in a Muslim family will have a clear idea of what their family and community expect of them and will have been schooled in the Do's and Don'ts from birth.
The pressure to conform will be strong with repercussions if they don't from all sides. Therein lies the conflict they face of Muslim family values and exposure to the UK way of life outside their family home and surroundings.
For some it is easier to conform but for others the only way is to break away from their surroundings and make a new life for themselves on their own terms somewhere else. It must (imo) be a hard choice to make if they want a different way of life from that of their elders.

The same conflict is also faced by women in other ethnic families and communities in the UK who want to 'Marry Out' or lead their own lives on their own terms.
Many do but many also realise which side of their bread is buttered and conform.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Is_East_(film)
 HuggableHarry
Joined: 4/4/2011
Msg: 145
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/10/2012 5:30:28 PM
Bill Maher - Burkha Fashion Show
http://youtu.be/f3QG29jSL6Y

Lady Mask's Burkhas
http://youtu.be/IUQu_X_VHG4

 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 146
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/11/2012 8:00:59 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7801022/Woman-fined-for-driving-while-wearing-burka.html

Like i said, health and safety, I don't believe in banning skullcaps, hijabs or crucifixes. None of these things impede normal social interaction or cause danger. A woman in a burkha driving a car?????? I mean, am I taking crazy pills here??? I struggle enough with both eyes and NO burkha. Reverse parking? To allow this is madness..
Although I understand apprehension with regard to civil liberties etc., the principles at stake here are less to do with women's rights, and more to do with women's, NAY humans' FREEDOM to not be imprisoned in cloth.
It's really simple, would you like to have to wear it?
What makes people so convinced that women enjoy this garment??? It has got to be at the very least a maddening encumbrance, at worst downright dangerous... Hello driving? Crossing the road???? With children???

msg 26
Personally, I can't stand the sight of burkas but I don't find the person wearing one intimidating....just what they stand for. No woman should feel she has to wear such an evil looking garment. I remember listening to Griffin on Question Time saying he found the idea of seeing 2 men kissing intimidating. Well, that's his own personal prejudices that's to blame and no-one else.

Can we try to understand the difference between "intimidation", phobia etc... I don't like to see 2 men kissing either, sorry I just don't, that's me... i don't especially like watch a man and woman passionately kissing or having sex on screen either. I am not a homophobe or heterophobe because of it. it's my personal (dis)taste.


Using an item of women's clothing as an excuse to launch an attack against Islamic beliefs is just cowardly and we may as well hide under a burka ourselves if we are not prepared to address the real problem.
Your last sentence is a lazy misjudgement... I couldn't give a monkey's what people believe... islam, jew, wiccan, I don't care... To say that everyone who disagrees with the burkha in public is an Islamaphobe is, put simply, pure bullsh!t...

I feel pity for her and pity is a form of contempt.. but pity is the closest I can get to being honest about how I feel about women who wear the burka….regardless of their reasons. By banning the burka aren't we are simply masking our own contempt? What will it be next? Men with long beards? Better to acknowledge and deal with the real issue at stake here than using an easy target such as the burka as an excuse to launch a war against Islamic beliefs.

Unlike you, I don't feel pity or contempt for these women, (how strange, BTW, you sound like a right snob) just feel that this burkha should have no place in public life here... You are projecting your contempt on others and accuse us of islamaphobia... It's rather stupid...
Again, the burkha is not part of muslim faith, it's a cultural tradition. Please stop making this out to be an anti-islam thing. It's dishonest...


You know that there are people out there who don't feel safe when they are around black people, right? Should we accommodate them too or just tell them to mind their own business?

This is such a bad comparison, that I am loathe to illustrate its inherent stupidity...so I won't bother...

msg 151
Bill Maher - Burkha Fashion Show
http://youtu.be/f3QG29jSL6Y

Lady Mask's Burkhas
http://youtu.be/IUQu_X_VHG4

v. funny video ... although I'm not sure a female masking fetishist is a great argument for the burkha. Sadly, (or perhaps predictably?) we couldn't even get to hear these faceless women speak....

drouk, dwight, theflea, huggable harry, rem, indigo velvet and anyone else who supports the wearing of the burkha or niqab in the UK. I wish you would wear it for a week then come back and support anyone's supposed "right" to wear it...

msg144
As I wrote above, maybe these women don't want to communicate...


Yeah right, based on what? Being women? Because women, by nature are such uncommunicative beings... These women are human beings... Just like you or me, forget religion, culture whatever... they have a right to be seen, acknowledged as human beings
J'ACCUSE every single person here who defends the wearing of the niqab/burkha here as a violator of women's HUMAN rights... Collaborators in the cultural oppression of women. Unsupportable and indefensible... just sayin'....
 DanL1983
Joined: 4/28/2010
Msg: 147
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/11/2012 8:40:02 AM
For a young Muslim woman to go against conforming to the traditions within a muslim family and their standing within their community must take real courage.

But that happens with Sikhs and Hindus too, not just Muslims. It is culture that makes traditions like that.

For example, the father in East is East trying to force his sons into arrange marriages is un-Islamic and forbidden in Islam. Arranged marriages are okay in Islam, but forcing your children into them when they say no are not.
 theconcept
Joined: 1/20/2012
Msg: 148
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/11/2012 9:45:54 AM
This is England, we are a Christian country with Christian values and culture. We should preserve these values and protect our culture from being saturated by others.

Why are we so afraid to keep our culture and not pander to external influences? The French aren't. We should be more like the French, in that they aren't afraid to make sure their identity as a nation is not lost.

The English don't seem to have this level of pride in their own identity and culture, evident in their willingness to lose it all for the sake of pleasing others.

Burka and Niqab should be banned with immediate effect, as they are not part of, or reflect any part of British values or culture. In fact, they represent the contrary.

If you go to any middle eastern country, you will have to respect the customs of the land, ie you will have to dress conservatively. I don't know of any foreigner who walks around the streets of Saudi Arabia in a bikini, just because they can do so here. Why? 1- out of respect for local culture, and 2- because you will probably be beaten and taken to jail.

They aren't ashamed to enforce these measures to keep their customs, so why are we?

 Wafta
Joined: 9/9/2008
Msg: 149
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Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/11/2012 10:02:23 AM
I'm tiring of the female forumites bashing on about this being oppression of Muslim women. This is not about whether women are oppressed, this is about an item of clothing worn to follow the rules of a religion/culture these people are part of and fully believe in.

Sikh men have to wear a turban.
Orthodox Jewish boys and men have to wear those daft hats and ringlets.
Jewish and Muslim boys have to be circumcised.

So are they oppressed too, or could it be that they go ahead with these "rules" because that's what they believe in?

Or do none of those things matter, because they're men and can't possibly be oppressed?
 pauline2012
Joined: 11/28/2011
Msg: 150
Wearing the burka in the UK.
Posted: 3/11/2012 10:21:39 AM

I'm tiring of the female forumites bashing on about this being oppression of Muslim women.


But as Im sure you are aware people interpret threads differently and may have a polar opposite from you that they are allowed to forum and post accordingly.

Do Muslim men have to wear a burka? Also speaking as someone who lives in the West of Scotland and we have a large Muslim population here, I don't think I've ever seen anyone in public wearing a burka.

Perhaps on the scale of things Muslim women are more oppressed within their culture than Muslim men are. My mum has Kurdish friends and one of the friends of my mum's friend practices Purdah which I believe means he believes in the segregation of the sexes and she has to leave the room when his friend is in the house.

I'm aware that many Muslims worship and practice to varying degrees and some may be very westernised but it might be fair to say that women aren't treated equally when it comes to Islam.
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