Do you honestly think some dude preaching in a barn denouncing TV and football is going to take over England. England? The country that hasn't been successfully invaded in almost a thousand years? That's ridiculous.

Do you honestly think some dude preaching in a barn denouncing TV and football is going to take over England.

Where is the enlightened passion and idealism of the secularist?

China.

Not based on religion but on a philosophy... has managed to hang a civilisation together for a few thousand years


And that proves what? That our most logical and end result of politics and religion is communism? So we should do that?

An ounce of religious passion has more energy than a ton of secular logic. Which, if secularism is to prevail, it will not do so by denouncing religion, but by promoting enlightened thought no matter what the application.

Where is the enlightened passion and idealism of the secularist?

This is the exact reason why I have little sympathy for any form of atheism movement. Individually fine but for the most part all that sit promoting the wonders of unicorns are basically full of it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/man-arrested-on-suspicion-of-beheading-wife-862467


Until I see equal treatment from so called secularists cross over to standing as forcefully against Islam. There is no reason to take you seriously.

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/analysis/feeding-hate-islamic-separatism-in-britain/2012/05/24/0/?print

So, continuing culture without religion is impossible now. It exists and isn't going to just roll over and die. So, you either admit it and allow it to live out its life and fill that gap or you fight and have that gap filled by something much worse.

Pretty low using an isolated murder case to push forth racism and one's own political agenda...
but where's the confusion? Punish him to the full extent of the law and give the author a swift kick in the nuts

Where is the enlightened passion and idealism of the secularist?

Second, I am indeed starting to get the sense that you are prejudiced against Islam. What happened to the whole 'let religion have its place in society' argument? Isn't Islam a religion as well? If Islam was to carve out a place in the UK and US and start influencing politics with their biblically-inspired laws then it can only be a good thing, right?

Second, I am indeed starting to get the sense that you are prejudiced against Islam. What happened to the whole 'let religion have its place in society' argument? Isn't Islam a religion as well? If Islam was to carve out a place in the UK and US and start influencing politics with their biblically-inspired laws then it can only be a good thing, right?

All you are doing, with these examples of the competition between the believers of one god thing and the believers of a different god thing, is illustrating that the concept of 'religion' is incompatible with the phrase 'cultural advance'.

As can be seen in many countries, Sharia law is not entirely incompatible with national or international law; democratic principles and Sharia law can coexist to a certain degree. However, there are still some striking areas of contention, namely in the fields of human rights and gender discrimina- tion. Even in the most “Westernized” of the mixed Sharia systems, women’s rights cannot be protected under the law and honor killings often go ignored. Only in the truly secular

All you are doing, with these examples of the competition between the believers of one god thing and the believers of a different god thing, is illustrating that the concept of 'religion' is incompatible with the phrase 'cultural advance'.

You could try siding with the rest of the world in saying 'no' instead of tacit support of it by calling those who really think it is a bad idea as 'islamaphobists'
http://www.annaqed.com/en/content/show.aspx?aid=16431

It's all good though right. Harmless
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9293350/Islamists-declare-north-Mali-an-independent-state-governed-by-sharia.html

You are making stuff up.
Quote the post where I've said anything about 'Islamaphobia'.

is there a problem with islam?
it is just another religion. i am not suggesting we ban religion - we can just teach it away. or keep it harmless.

As I said, all you are doing is demonstrating what a toxic phenomenon religion really is.

Right... Then lets see you back what you say. You have an openness towards islam. You will permit sharia law in britain because it is part of their culture. Ok. Fine. Allow the Catholic Church in Britian to reinstitute prayer before government meetings nationally.

Let’s see how free and open, and rich and full of diversity you are.

As far as culture and society and advancing there is a problem. The problem is equality. In western culture the church has a place. Equality demands that should mean that all churches have a place. In Britain that means sharia law. How do you account for this under secularism? I know how to account for it under Religion. I don’t know how under secularism. Under religion equality is not an ideal that is granted to everything.

Secularism has no preference for one religion or another and will never dictate what people should believe.

Muslim leader warns that some British Pakistani men 'think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought'

That determination is likely to be mirrored across the Christian community, which makes up 10 percent of Egypt's population of 85 million. Many Christians see the vote as a clear-cut choice between a secular state and one in which an Islamist agenda slowly takes root. Leaders of the Orthodox Coptic Church, to which most Egyptian Christians belong, and Christian activists have been working hard to get the community to the polls, said Yousef Sidhom, editor of the weekly Watani newspaper and a Coptic Church official....

A Pew Research Center survey conducted in Spring 2010, before the Arab Spring and the toppling of Mubarak, found that no fewer than eighty-five percent of Egyptians thought that Islam was a positive influence in politics. Fifty-nine percent said they identified with “Islamic fundamentalists” in their struggle against “groups who want to modernize the country,” who had the support of only twenty-seven percent of Egyptians. Only twenty percent were “very concerned” about “Islamic extremism” within Egypt.

basically, people are free to believe whatever they want, as long as it doesn't infringe on the law or encroach on public policy

It is one thing to think that the war in Afghanistan has been an excruciating failure (which I believe), but it is another to think that we had no moral right to attack al-Qaeda and the Taliban in the first place. A significant percentage of liberals seem to hold the latter view, and consider President Obama to be nothing more than a neocon stooge and Islam to be an unfairly maligned religion of peace. I regularly hear from such people, and their beliefs genuinely trouble me. It doesn’t take many emails containing sentences like “The United States and Israel are the greatest terrorist states on earth” to make me feel that liberalism is simply doomed.

Do you not see that equality is a weakness that can be exploited? Equality is a good thing but like all things if not done with moderation bad things will occur.

This is culture advancing and not the US. For us it is western culture. So for western culture to exist it must deal with the opposing culture. What is the secularist plan for that. I know what Bush's plan was...

Yes, Bush's religion-based plans were disasterous (basically waging a "crusade" against Islam only spurred the fundamentalists on). The principles of western society are enshrined in its foundational laws (e.g., the US Constitution, Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, etc.) and I think THIS is what we should be defending. Frankly, I think the most serious threat to western culture is the willingness of some fundamentalist (mostly Christian) politicians in the US to break down Jefferson's wall. They threaten to destroy the secular basis of society that guarantees our freedoms (including freedom of religion) while at the same time waging a war against competing religions. Bush was also willing to forego habeas corpus in his fight against Islam - as a Korean, I feel ashamed that a Korean like John Yoo helped Bush to do this (as far as I'm concerned, he is a traitor).

Maybe I missed it... So, negotiate? The Wall didn't exist in Britain. It was still broken. The crazy christians in the US passing useless laws against the non existent threat do more to protect that wall than anything. The same restriction to stop Sharia could also be used to stop Christians from trying to implement a religios based law such as making gay marriage illegal or not recognizing it...

Yes, many countries in Europe still have an official church (why they do is beyond me - I mean the Church of England is little more than a social club). I think they should do what the US did and officially erect such a wall, but old habits die hard I guess (it's like Britain getting rid of the monarchy). I think that wall is the best way to prevent religion from influencing politics and it is the only thing that will treat all religions equally (government shows no favorites and does no favors for anyone). Religion is then forced to compete in the marketplace of ideas, just like politics, business and anything else. In fact, one US theologian's defense of the separation of church and state is that it made religion strong (religious leaders have to find ways to attract converts, forcing them to be creative and innovate).

You are so close but I have to maintain disagreement. Yes to everything you say as far as western religion and culture. NO! Emphatically with Sharia. It does not fit. Killing women, Stoning, Beheading, does not fit. Exclude. It is NOT equal.

It is required to take a stand. If not, you are really required to make me understand how it is ok to make it equal and allow sharia courts.

You are so close but I have to maintain disagreement. Yes to everything you say as far as western religion and culture. NO! Emphatically with Sharia. It does not fit. Killing women, Stoning, Beheading, does not fit. Exclude. It is NOT equal.
It is required to take a stand. If not, you are really required to make me understand how it is ok to make it equal and allow sharia courts. Because the chance of that occurring in my brain is next to 0. It would be like you accepting Jesus as your savior.

I don't understand your objection. Sharia has nothing to do with secular law. It is clearly a religious idea so should be separate from government (that is, the government should never adopt religious law codes or religious courts like Sharia).

Sharia...
/snip/
It doesn't concern you at all?

At some point you have to step out of idealism of what 'should be' and deal with what is right. It should be separate from government and should never adopt religious laws or courts like Sharia.

So is that it? Crackpot Christian beliefs must be retained lest we terrify all the people bent on going to Christian heaven, but we should stamp on Islam and to hell with the feelings of the people keen on going to Islam heaven?

Also meaning "path" in Arabic, sharia guides all aspects of Muslim life including daily routines, familial and religious obligations, and financial dealings. It is derived primarily from the Quran and the Sunna--the sayings, practices, and teachings of the Prophet Mohammed. Precedents and analogy applied by Muslim scholars are used to address new issues. The consensus of the Muslim community also plays a role in defining this theological manual.

Marriage and divorce are the most significant aspects of sharia, but criminal law is the most controversial. In sharia, there are categories of offenses: those that are prescribed a specific punishment in the Quran, known as hadd punishments, those that fall under a judge's discretion, and those resolved through a tit-for-tat measure (ie., blood money paid to the family of a murder victim). There are five hadd crimes: unlawful sexual intercourse (sex outside of marriage and adultery), false accusation of unlawful sexual intercourse, wine drinking (sometimes extended to include all alcohol drinking), theft, and highway robbery. Punishments for hadd offenses--flogging, stoning, amputation, exile, or execution--get a significant amount of media attention when they occur.

While precise statistics are scarce, the UN estimates thousands of women are killed annually in the name of family honor (National Geographic). Other practices that are woven into the sharia debate, such as female genital mutilation, adolescent marriages, polygamy, and gender-biased inheritance rules, elicit as much controversy.

Whether democracy and Islam can coexist is a topic of heated debate. Some Islamists argue democracy is a purely Western concept imposed on Muslim countries. Others feel Islam necessitates a democratic system and that democracy has a basis in the Quran since "mutual consultation" among the people is commended

In the majority of Muslim countries, however, the Sharia is applied selectively. Some countries adopt only a few aspects of Sharia law; others apply the entire code.

While some aspects of traditional Sharia law are still present, the legal systems of these countries have also been deeply influenced by European-style common and civil law

Sharia is in opposition to secular law it is an all encompassing world view and life style. It covers belief, law, justice, and lifestyle.

The UN is secular right... what are they doing about it? The only ones that stood up to it are told they are just as wrong... I don't get it. Britain is supposed to be secular right... There are over 80 Sharia courts and Sharia finance and Muslim preferential treatment over other races.

What happens in the caves of Afghanistan is no longer outside the realm of impacting us. The world is a simple plane ride away, a text message communication to anywhere in the world. The world is now small. Technology has made it matter what happens in those caves. It is directly relevant because equality is a weakness that can be exploited and is being exploited. Equality needs to be protected but also protected from itself.