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 neck romancer
Joined: 9/7/2006
Msg: 26
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Feminism Your ViewsPage 2 of 44    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
@ Jerilyn
I disagree.. feminism is for the rights of women.. not humans. I feel human rights is more politically correct overall as it covers the human experience.
Men are afraid of Feminazi's who take their uprising too far and oppress men. Feminazi's are NOT feminist/humanists.
A Feminazi might also be a good term for the women who oppress other women for their choice to be homemakers.
 Johnnie1270
Joined: 5/13/2010
Msg: 27
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/7/2012 2:15:09 PM

You appear to have completely missed the logical fallacy, so I'll explain again.
....

In the event of practices that create the need for medical intervention, such as forcing women to give birth on their backs, praising medical staff for intervention and crediting them for saving lives is the logical fallacy.

For this to be true you would need to show me the data that shows that childbirth without medical intervention is safer and results in less death than medical interventions. That is that medical intervention is not required and has been “created” and there is no need. Unlike the window throwing incident women get pregnant and it can be dangerous. You are discussing whether a specific method within the entire process is useful. This is not the same thing as saying it ALL does not work- there may be improvements on what we do currently but what we currently do is an improvement over the non medical intervention cases of people giving birth in particular in death rates of both mother and child.
If you wish to call a logical fallacy could you state which logical fallacy you are claiming as I still do not see to which one you are referring. You seem to mean you don’t agree with a view rather it being an actual formal logical fallacy.



It is the equivalent of medics chucking someone out of a 2nd story window, dashing downstairs, doing their stuff and then saying, "Just as well we were here, eh?"

Its nothing like this for the reasons sted above

No one is saying breast is not best as far as I am aware. However [ and i am sure commercial pressures and societal pressure has an affect here] without bottle feeding more babies would die. Some are born lactose intolerant for example. I have known mothers who have tried to breast feed and not managed, for a variety of reasons ,be looked down on by breast feeding mothers. The reason had nothing to do with sexualisation or shame...this only came because some mothers made them feel like they had failed as a mother.

Nestle are a shameful organisation and have boycotted their products for over 20 years but i do not see what relevance it has to either the child birth conversation or the initial feminism issue tbh.

Education is the answer though I don’t agree with all you say in the rest of the post.
 frankiesinatra22
Joined: 4/12/2011
Msg: 28
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Posted: 4/7/2012 2:22:27 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just don't agree with the demonizing of the family life Feminism seems to portray. I think being a stay at home parent or having kids is an amazing and fulfilling lifestyle. Heck, I would love to be a stay at home husband. My impression of Feminism is that it just seems to bash that type of lifestyle which is not fair because there are those that choose it, and enjoy it. Some of the greatest feelings I have in my life is serving the ones I love, and making kids happy. Instead Feminism just seems so opposed to it. My view may be wrong, but that's the impression I get from Feminism and it's advocates.

I also feel it's expired it's usefulness. We've come a long way, and it doesn't seem to be an issue anymore at least with the younger generation. In fact sometimes it seems to be the flip side, and I have to tell people, men are people too.
 skarabians1
Joined: 12/29/2011
Msg: 29
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Posted: 4/7/2012 2:29:57 PM
What feminism has allowed women is the ability, by education and being in the workforce, to walk away from someone who is treating her as an inferior being. I don't want a penis...I just want to be treated with respect. When it is deserved, I will also treat everyone else with the same respect. I don't think...."I want the same money but you pay all the bills and for all dates" is relevent anymore. If I have lots more and I want to be with you....I pay. Same if you're better off . Otherwise, we share expenses. We both work hard....why should one do all the paying. Respect and equal opportunity....thats feminism....not control or penis envy.
 Neptune74
Joined: 2/16/2011
Msg: 30
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Posted: 4/7/2012 2:47:34 PM

pitufina_77

So, in a roundabout way, it has taken away from my freedom of choice and expression.


Some pretty counterproductive feminists you've met, I have to say. Agree with neck romancer above, it's not feminism.



CulturedBlackMan

I will fight to the death anyones RIGHT to live and expresses themselves in anyway they choose......a feminist woman is not appealing to me, but that doesnt take away from her value to herself or to the world.


I've seen some of you're posts and I know where the women (and culture) for you are. Man, you are destined to live in Italy and you will not regret swapping the Merlot for some Primitivo and definately some Amarone. :)





Kayla58

We simply want the right to earn the same wages for the same work while having men open the doors and pull out our chairs and picking up the check! ;)


The latter part is a very good argument for why men should have higher wages. ;)

It doesn't matter how much we men earn we spend it on you women in any case. Men deserve tax credits for just being men and deductable expenses ;) :P


@LORAX and @Neck Romancer,

Agree on the human rights, not sure if feminist movements today add so much.

I'm from Sweden and we have a pretty equal society there. When the feminist movement start talking about quotas of women in boards of private companies and want to force a 50/50 divide by law, then there is some serious stepping on liberies there. Also quotas for men and women in higher positions public services, instead of best person for the job. When it goes to those levels I think it's wrong. The latest has been the push to introduce a new word in the Swedish language. This bit is in my oppinion rediculous. The swedish words for "he" and "she" is "han" and "hon" they want to introduce a person neutral word "hen" to mark that person you're talking about in a gender neutral way. When feminism goes that far, then I reject it as ridiculous.

@Jac_the_Gripper,

I like your writing but not sure if agree that breastfeeding in public is not acceptable. We live in the same country... hmm... or should I say sovereign state instead ;) and at least from where I'm standing I can't see there being a problem.

@Jerilyn,

Sure, but is it need anymore? Equality between sexes, race and religion is countered for in the in the human rights declaration
 rockstar821
Joined: 5/30/2010
Msg: 31
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Posted: 4/7/2012 2:50:51 PM
I see a lot of feminism going too far. People expecting things just handed to them because they're women. Femenist groups were actually suing fire departments for expecting women to pass the same physical test as men (which if you don't agree that they should have to, imagine being stuck in a burning and the only person in there isn't strong enough to break the door down to get you out)

I believe in equal rights for everyone, but those equal rights should come with equal responsibility... including being forced by law to sign up for selective service.
 RushLuv
Joined: 4/16/2009
Msg: 32
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/7/2012 3:41:21 PM
Men seem to be a lot more bothered by feminism than women, as if feminist hold some kind of threat to them. As they have stereotyped feminism very negatively for many years.

My initial thought was feminism was a fight for women's rights as well as equal rights. I say continue the fight for what they believe in.

But I would like to know if feminist are acting on what they consider to be equal rights.
 sexandthepof
Joined: 10/10/2011
Msg: 33
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/7/2012 5:01:10 PM
Some men who are against feminism and call it as feminazism, whatever they want, are the ones insecure.

Feminism is an attitude favoring the movement to eliminate political, social, and professional discrimination against women. It is a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women. What’s wrong with that?

As post #26 says: “I feel human rights is more politically correct overall as it covers the human experience”, but in reality men did not, and even now some men still don’t, see women should have these equal rights, that’s why women had/have to fight for them. Women are human beings the same as men. Women have brain too.

This is 21st century and 2012. People cannot go backward to the dinosaur age. The world has changed and keeps changing. Women and men, men and women need each other in different ways, but both genders are important the same. Without women, there’s no life. Without men, there’s no life either. Instead of fighting and putting each other down, why don’t we learn to respect each other and compromise to live in harmony?

For post #28: nowadays, if you have baby, you can take paternity leave for one year with pay too. There was no such thing many years ago. But that’s up to you and your wife/partner to decide who stays home to take care of your baby. That’s a family issue. Or you can "fight" for your right to stay home six months and your wife/partner to stay home six months if you want. In life, you don’t get lots of things when you don’t speak up, but you have to be reasonable.

Another thing is about children’s last name. I saw a few cases that some women wanted their children to have the mother’s last name and the men got very upset. LOL. This is something to think about too.
 rockstar821
Joined: 5/30/2010
Msg: 34
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Posted: 4/7/2012 6:04:03 PM

This is 21st century and 2012. People cannot go backward to the dinosaur age. The world has changed and keeps changing. Women and men, men and women need each other in different ways, but both genders are important the same. Without women, there’s no life. Without men, there’s no life either. Instead of fighting and putting each other down, why don’t we learn to respect each other and compromise to live in harmony?


My generation is way past that. The problem though, not enough of your generation is.

My generation was raised to just not care about your sex or race or anything. But it's hard to say that everyone's fighting for equal rights when I've had jobs where a woman who can easily lift more weight than me, felt that she had to ask me to lift everything heavy for her.

It's basically saying, if you want equal rights, then being a woman can't be an excuse anymore. Equal rights means equal responsibility. I'd fight for anyone that's being treated lower than me because they're a woman, or black, or gay... but I'll never fight for someone that says woman better be getting paid as much as men in the work place, and then coming to me every time something heavy has to be lifted, while it's her job to lift it.
 sexandthepof
Joined: 10/10/2011
Msg: 35
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/7/2012 6:16:29 PM
Equal rights on the job mean if a woman and a men do an exactly same job, they should get an exactly same pay.

To LathaMath: Did that woman have the same job description as yours and get same pay? And about the car was stuck in the snow is a different thing. I don't think it related to her job description. It is different in personal matter. In life, there are lots of things women and men can change and lots of things they can't. For example, women have womanhood; men have manhood; women can give births, men can't. And mostly, naturally, men are more physically stronger, therefore they can do heavier job. But if men do heavier job at the workplace, of course they get more pay. That is just comparing about labour work. I'm not comparing about labour work and office work or administrative work.

Nowadays, most men and women work, so after work, at home, men can mow the lawn, shovel the snow, fix cars; women cook, clean the house, do the laundry; or vice versa. That is fair. If both work out of the home, and when at home just one of them has to do all the housework, then that's not fair.
 sexandthepof
Joined: 10/10/2011
Msg: 36
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/7/2012 6:25:42 PM
rockstar: Do what ever you want. You don't have to help the women at your workplace if you don't want to. If they have the same job description as you do and get the same pay, tell them to do it themselves. You need to speak up for your rights, just like women in my generation had to speak up for our rights.

And yet, you say "my generation is way past that", that's good. We have trained out kids, your generation, well. Go to do the right things.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 37
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Posted: 4/7/2012 6:29:23 PM
Men & women are human beings, they should have all the same civil rights and should be treated the same, and of course should earn the same pay for the same work. Women are not second class citizens who need to be less than men, genitalia does not set the person's worth. Yes, some men can do harder work than some females, but then some men can do harder work than some other men. If you want to stay home and raise children, your gender should have nothing to do with it, other than breastfeeding, which you know shows that there will always be some differences. But treating women as lower beings is the problem, men aren't meant to be over women anymore than anyone should be able to mistreat another. If you have to keep others down to have self-esteem, then look in the mirror, you are your own problem, fix yourself.

I do not know why some people get so ridiculous about men & women having the same rights, it's simple logic.
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 38
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Posted: 4/7/2012 6:47:30 PM
Feminism is about equal rights for women, being able to go to school, get a job with equal pay, considered a real person and be protected by the law the same as a man. Unfortunately it also has a negative image due to extreme individuals, both male and female, where if a woman choses to become a stay at home Mom she is antifeminism or has to do it all to be a modern woman and then there are insecure controlling males who want to blame feminism for the breakdown of the family unit and taking their jobs away. As a woman, I have greatly benefitted by the struggles of women/men before me, who fought for the right to be considered an equal human being and should not be taken for granted, as we have seen in the US lately and around the world, equal rights can be eroded away by fear and intolerance.
 Neptune74
Joined: 2/16/2011
Msg: 39
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Posted: 4/7/2012 7:30:39 PM

Feminism is about equal rights for women, being able to go to school, get a job with equal pay, considered a real person and be protected by the law the same as a man.


Sure, but those basic things are in place, right. Are there any major gender inequalities left, part from equal pay that has to be granted?

When you hear feminists say that single women should have the right to free state funded IVF treatment, since it's every woman's right to become a mother. I believe it's every woman's right to engage with a willing man to create a child together. State funded IVF treatment for single women... really???!!!...
 rockstar821
Joined: 5/30/2010
Msg: 40
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Posted: 4/7/2012 7:58:50 PM

You need to speak up for your rights, just like women in my generation had to speak up for our rights.


You don't do that at that job... People have been fired for that. They actually look down on not lifting that heavy box for the woman who can lift it easier than you can... (she used to be a marine, makes it even more surprising she was that lazy about lifting a box)

I've quit... I don't work there anymore. It was just backing up my opinion. We don't need feminism anymore. It's a completely obsolete idea. Like someone else said, it should be fighting for "human rights".

It's just something that happens all the time when there's an activist group. It eventually ends up with too many extremists, and it gets really out of control. Like I'm actually turned down for government assistance because I'm a male. To get it without having a kid you have to be female... It's like, they got to the point of equality, and just kept fighting for more still.

But it doesn't matter. Like I said, my generation, for the most part, has more important things to worry about than if their coworker is a man or woman. While your generation is responsible for a lot of the mess, your generation raised a generation of people who don't believe any of this should be needed, that equality should just be automatic. Ofc, we ARE still jerks and make jokes about how women belong in the kitchen making us sandwiches, but it doesn't really bother anyone. The women our age usually have a good comeback. :)
 PittsburghVixen
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 41
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/7/2012 8:30:51 PM
@daynadaze:

Men & women are human beings, they should have all the same civil rights and should be treated the same, and of course should earn the same pay for the same work. Women are not second class citizens who need to be less than men, genitalia does not set the person's worth. Yes, some men can do harder work than some females, but then some men can do harder work than some other men. If you want to stay home and raise children, your gender should have nothing to do with it, other than breastfeeding, which you know shows that there will always be some differences. But treating women as lower beings is the problem, men aren't meant to be over women anymore than anyone should be able to mistreat another. If you have to keep others down to have self-esteem, then look in the mirror, you are your own problem, fix yourself.

I do not know why some people get so ridiculous about men & women having the same rights, it's simple logic.


@Casper66:

Feminism is about equal rights for women, being able to go to school, get a job with equal pay, considered a real person and be protected by the law the same as a man. Unfortunately it also has a negative image due to extreme individuals, both male and female, where if a woman choses to become a stay at home Mom she is antifeminism or has to do it all to be a modern woman and then there are insecure controlling males who want to blame feminism for the breakdown of the family unit and taking their jobs away. As a woman, I have greatly benefitted by the struggles of women/men before me, who fought for the right to be considered an equal human being and should not be taken for granted, as we have seen in the US lately and around the world, equal rights can be eroded away by fear and intolerance.


Very well stated in both posts.

I have been a feminist since I was a child. To me it means equality under the law for BOTH genders; fair treatment for BOTH genders; choices for for BOTH genders; and responsibilities that go with the equal rights for BOTH genders. "Rights" do not exist without "responsibilities".
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 42
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Posted: 4/7/2012 9:02:18 PM

I have been a feminist since I was a child. To me it means equality under the law for BOTH genders; fair treatment for BOTH genders; choices for for BOTH genders;


Feminism may have intiially been about attaining equality for women; it veered from that course the the late 60's into the 70's. Miscreants like Steinem and her minions made sure of that, as she hy-jacked it and turned it into a destructive social juggernaut which wreaked havoc on the fabric of the nuclear family. It espoused the "self" before anything; thus it gave selfishness a fresh new veneer at the expense of the family unit; whose breakdown has caused a social earthquake with aftershocks being felt to this day in all directions. radical feminism no longer was about "equality" it instead became a way to show-case female egotism/conceit. It is sad to see how many women were(and are still) hoodwinked into associating radical feminism with "equal" rights!

There was an article in the March 18 Sunday NY times about the "accomplishment" of Gloria Steinem and how no one (now) wants to assume her position.

Feminism is no more about women's rights than Zionism is about up lifting Jews from oppression of the past!
 Jerilyn
Joined: 1/13/2012
Msg: 43
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Posted: 4/7/2012 9:07:08 PM
""I have been a feminist since I was a child. To me it means equality under the law for BOTH genders; fair treatment for BOTH genders; choices for for BOTH genders; and responsibilities that go with the equal rights for BOTH genders. "Rights" do not exist without "responsibilities". ""

Feminism is about women's rights, not men's. Men have always had all the rights they could ever want or need without anyone getting in the way of it. Yes, feminism means equality for BOTH genders, but only in terms of ensuring that women get equal treatment with men. Statements like this suggest that men's rights have to protected and feminism is there to serve them as well. Hogwash. Protected from what? It is still a male dominated society and we still have a long way to go until we are accepted as equals, despite the progress we've made.
 FixedVariable
Joined: 10/17/2010
Msg: 44
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Posted: 4/7/2012 9:38:25 PM

Msg 4: I was talking about how feminists will judge me over my choices.


Those who would judge you aren't feminists, just douchebags.

The whole point of the damned thing was to give you choices. Part of being equal is being able to decide for yourself how you want to roll.
 sexandthepof
Joined: 10/10/2011
Msg: 45
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/7/2012 10:01:04 PM
rockstar: So sad for a man who does not know how to find a right person to speak up for his rights and admits himself to be a jerk and makes fun of females. Your Mom is a woman. You show sign of weakness and bad attitude. You cannot generalize all women that they raised kids like you. Maybe your Mom did not know how to raise you. Or you did not listen to her teaching. Or maybe you have a father who hated women or feminism so much, and you learned from him. My sons are younger than you, but they know how to find the right boss in their companies to speak up for their rights in a well manner, and they get what they want. You still have lots to learn. The men who are against feminism and talk bad about women are insecure. You are an adult now. You are responsible for everything you do in your life. The same with us. We cannot blame our parents' generation. That doesn't help. It's useless.
 RAMPERBILL
Joined: 2/16/2010
Msg: 46
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/7/2012 10:03:22 PM
Men have always had all the rights they could ever want or need without anyone getting in the way of it.
-----------------------------------------------
If this were true you wouldn't have war. History has shown that men couldn't even own land for many different reasons (no title, no wife, no children). A single man not only wasn't allowed land until he married, but there really wasn't a need to unless he had to provide for a family. Even within a family land wasn't passed down to any man who was single (that's a lot of pressure when you need to eat). Guess what, if you weren't a land owner you had no vote in how you were governed. That's right, at one point in history men couldn't vote too. Working the land was a hard life before machinery, so male children were wanted to help. Better to have 10 men in the field, than 10 women in the kitchen. Woe to the man who only had girls. Today's world has provided women a means to be self-supporting, and has provided men a means to not have to get married to be able to eat.
 vampyreshadow
Joined: 3/21/2011
Msg: 47
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Posted: 4/7/2012 10:20:13 PM
So, in a roundabout way, it has taken away from my freedom of choice and expression.


Um...... How does another persons judgement of what you do, take away your choices, or ability to express yourself, you are the one making the choice of giving a damn what others say and think, that is your doing, not the fault or flaw with feminists or feminism. I have been judged on allot of things in my life, you know what, I generally choose not to care. I do what is right for me, and me alone. FYI, I was a housewife and a mother for 14 years, and I am a vocal feminist.

Now I differentiate from many feminists on the fact I support porn, prostitution, and other forms of the sex industry. I also do not buy into the whole separate but equal thing many feminists push for, I really don't buy into this bizarre arse theory that all sex with males is rape that some of the more rabid feminists push at. I don't think all guys suck basically. I am sick of the whole theory that woman are supposed to view sex and sexuality different then men. I also do not buy into this nonsense that a man that wants to be a full time dad is less of a man, heck sometimes they may be more suited for it. I don't agree with the default awarding of primary custody to the mother. My feminism is more about the sexes being equal.
 LinuxD
Joined: 12/6/2008
Msg: 48
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Posted: 4/7/2012 10:51:43 PM
Feminism is only the cover page for misandry under the guise of "equality". It's been achieved.. it's only perceived inequality and the ability to scream SEXISM that it's kept alive.. same with racism.. if everyone is equal why are so many so quick to pull out what ever card benefits THEM? THEY must be listened to.. everyone else STFU.. doesn't sound much like equality to me?... just a thought.

“I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” Kahlil Gibran.
 vampyreshadow
Joined: 3/21/2011
Msg: 49
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Posted: 4/7/2012 11:14:51 PM
Sexism still exists, I am sad to say, I can lift and carry 100 pounds, been bucking bails, etc. Went in for an interview, lasted less then 1 minute despite the fact that his emails were glowing on my resume. He bleached white when he saw me walk into the door, and told me flat out their was no way I could handle the job. I am quite used to his reaction despite the fact that I am quite qualified as a pipe fitter, qualified to drive a water truck, and qualified for every detail of the job. I am not big on throwing it around, but you try to get a job as a drill hand as a woman, then we can talk about equality of the sexes :P BTW they ended up hiring some ex felon that couldn't pass the DOT requirements so they have their driller driving the water truck, but he was a guy.
 --Zen--
Joined: 6/29/2011
Msg: 50
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/7/2012 11:47:28 PM
It had it's time and place. Time to grow up and move on.
Feminists will argue with foam in a mouth that feminism had only beneficial impact on society and refuse to listen to logic. There are benefits in capitalism, socialism nazism and racism. Any -ism ideology has inherent bias of control. To bypass balance of nature and create favorable environment for selected group at the expense of others. Nature of any ideology is to indoctrinate the weak minded, less privileged and deprived. To exploit weak points in human psyche to achieve specific goals.
Idea is pure but goal of western feminism is simple. Extra labor.
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