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| | Feminism Your ViewsPage 29 of 44 (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44) |
The thing about feminism, is it even needed anymore?
Not as much in North America, I would think, but yes.. at the very least the goals (reached or not) shouldn't be ignored.
There was actually lawsuits by these groups for holding women to the same physical standards as men for jobs like being a cop, or putting out fires.
I hope the judge tosses out these stupid lawsuits then.
If a woman cannot fill the physical requirements for fire-fighters or cops, then OF COURSE they should not be allowed to become either. Those women who CAN fill the requirements deserve a shot. This is logical... crap like lowering requirements or filling quotas... not at all logical. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 1:33:55 PM | | After a life time of thinking about this I have decided there is good and bad. The goods are obvious. The downside for me is I feel when in a committed relationship I am expected to keep a job, keep a home, and take care of the kids, while in the mean time the guys just are allowed to go on as they were before. Another thing is I think a family unit is very important and we gave up a lot when we decided we (women) could raise kids on our without both a man and a woman in the home. Being a single parent sucks and there is a much better chance of your kids turning out with issues due to the divorce rate. Guys can just walk away! I would never burn my bra! That thing is the twin’s best friend! | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 1:50:15 PM | @emptyvases pls. cite your source for this:
"The Frankfurt School promoted these top down ideologies as a means to deconstruct entire cultures" | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 1:57:28 PM | ahhh just saw some wrong interpretation of the internet about it, promoted by some groups like catholic insight, and a group called reastoring america????
It really grips me when people dont question anything thats written or in the media and just take it as the truth. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 2:00:08 PM | @hart, not disagreeing with your opinion but pointing out some food for thought:
The downside for me is I feel when in a committed relationship I am expected to keep a job, keep a home, and take care of the kids, while in the mean time the guys just are allowed to go on as they were before.
If you don't like those expectations, you are now free to renegotiate those with your partner. Prior to feminism, there were many women who had to work outside the home and take care of everything within the home as well - but they had no voice to negotiate the terms with their husbands/partners, because if their husbands decided to dump them, they had no rights.
Another thing is I think a family unit is very important and we gave up a lot when we decided we (women) could raise kids on our without both a man and a woman in the home.
Who is this "we" whom you say presumed to speak for all women? It was not the feminist movement.
Being a single parent sucks and there is a much better chance of your kids turning out with issues due to the divorce rate. Guys can just walk away!
Another reason for equal rights - not to allow women to "just walk away", but to be sure that guys could not.
I would never burn my bra! That thing is the twin’s best friends!
The whole "burn the bra" thing has been used as a bogeyman since the day it happened - taken out of context, multiplied into supposedly countless incidents (it was a single protest by a few women, held to get press coverage) and is irrelevant to equal rights. Although, I've had a lot of damned uncomfortable bras I'd sure like to burn - with friends like those, the twins don't need enemies. LOL. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 2:10:40 PM |
What I do wonder is how the adoption of ERA will influence the apliccation of the Duluth Model in US and/or the Ontario´s Bill 117/2000 in Canada, since both policies are violations of the equal proteccion clause and the right to a due process.
And, for extention, it may impact in the application of the "affirmatice action" policy since the quotas for a job is a discrimination against the best candidate, regardless of the intent to incorporate women and minorities.
Well, if they handle it the way Canada did - the rights are enshrined in the constitution and then an exception is applied to it. Which is how we (Canada) have equal rights embedded in the constitution but legally allow discrimination. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 2:19:15 PM | | i do think feminism led up to the current divorce rate and gave reason to get out of a commitment too easy. really what kind of a woman would leave her kids? i know men have been doing it for years but that dont make it right. and they were more inclined to stick around before, where now they have this tude that its ok we can care for ourself... so who cares! made men deadbeats! | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 2:47:34 PM |
i do think feminism led up to the current divorce rate and gave reason to get out of a commitment too easy
Yep, was so much better back in the day when both men and women were stuck unhappy and miserable with each other with no prospect of getting out.
its ok we can care for ourself
That's what adults do, they become self sufficient. So much better than being dependent on someone.
made men deadbeats!
If a man chooses to be a deadbeat that is on him. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 2:54:16 PM | Mmmm wondering what people are meaning in their references to feminism?
Or do they really know what it is?
Anything with an 'ism' on the end of it refers to its prefix being an ideology.
Experientially .. what it is to be of the feminine gender means is subject to upbringing/socialization/personal understandings.
The 'idea' of what it is to be a female is philosophically or politically was/is .. may challenge or reorientate our thinking on the matter and historically women struggled for a shift in the ways women were legislated for ( or moreover not for) and in the way women were/are (to this day in many parts of the world..) stereotyped/marginalised/exploited/ even brutalised due to their gender.
If people in western society feel that the need for feminist ideals and awareness is past ... look again! Take off the blinkers and observe how young women are being encouraged by the fashion industry and the media to dress and behave. Women in Australia in general still don't get paid as much as men in the work place, the 'glass ceiling' is a real thing and most women on the ladder stereotype there behaviours on those modelled by men to climb 'successfully'.
As for dating site etiquette ... we all have our depersonalised experiences (male and female) of being treated by others like we might be up for sale in a cattle market...chuckle! The thing is women traditionally are used to being perceived in an objectified way / even by themselves when it comes to their external value...e.g. women dress/'make-up' to be seen not always to suite themselves.
Anyway...excuse me if this seems to be a feminist rant, but actually its not ... I'm an ordinary woman of ordinary experiences, who's not by nature particularly political. But..I become concerned when I see other men and women of maturity having superficial /sometimes knee jerk reactions to the very word: feminism. If we are honest and look/think a little deeper we perhaps in all conscience know differently.
After all complacency leads to flippancy and lazy concepts are passed onto the next generation...thats what concerns me the most!
with respect: H.C. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 3:11:06 PM | "Who is the "we" whom you say presumed to speak for all women? It was not the feminist movement."
All the spokewomen feminists, leaders of women´s organization, writers, scholars, phylosophers, lobbying groups...?
I can give you a long list.
Or you can just read "The Declaration of Feminism", 1971 to accept the idea of the agenda for the promotion of divorce, the destruction of marriage, the dissolution of the nuclear family and reinventing all History to demonize men.
Ref Margo´s response: We have a saying about those situations: "it´s the same dog, just different collar" | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 3:33:20 PM | | Actually, I read that back in 1971 when it came out, and almost every woman I know rejects that radical message while still believing that no one's rights should be truncated. But you just go ahead and keep lumping all women who believe in equal rights for BOTH genders into that demonized category that you think are "feminists". I'm sure it makes you feel better somehow. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 3:55:57 PM | But there ya go Vixen, I don't identify with "feminist" (far too much baggage and many principles I take issue with - not to mention it IS a social engineering experiment that have some serious ramifications in society) <-- like I said, baggage LOL
... and yet, I am very much for equal rights and responsibilities . | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 3:59:56 PM | Allow me a correction.
I never said all women share the radical line. I know there are more than 10 differentes tendencies for diferentiation in names even when all of them are instrinsicately related.
I did say, and I repite, the second wave with its political platform and in the voice of its representatives for women promoted and achieved what you negate: the rise of divorce ... regardless if you share their line of thinking or not. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 4:05:53 PM | | its not like i am not greatful for what the movement did for women. but there are drawbacks. thats all i was pointing out. of course i can take care of myself, and i wont stay in a relationship where i am miserable but guys seem to cut and run. and they have an excuse to leave the kids behind. so many kids from broken homes now! | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 4:11:12 PM |
do think feminism led up to the current divorce rate and gave reason to get out of a commitment too easy. really what kind of a woman would leave her kids? i know men have been doing it for years but that dont make it right. and they were more inclined to stick around before, where now they have this tude that its ok we can care for ourself... so who cares! made men deadbeats!
Oh, that's right, men never left their families before. And back then when they'd leave (because I'm old enough to remember) women who were pregnant could be denied employment, they were limited in which jobs they could do (in our city there was exactly one woman working for the phone company in a non-clerical capacity) and were generally considered only able to be secretaries, nurses, teachers or realtors and this was in a major city like Los Angeles. I remember many single moms struggling because they couldn't get higher paying jobs despite their college degrees. I remember being hired out of college as a flight attendant for Pan Am and I'm 5'3" and the weight cut off was 126-I weighed 119 and was told that I'd be weighed monthly and if I went one pound over the limit I'd be fired. There was no such rule for pilots. I see flight attendants now who weigh 200lbs. But we were judged on our beauty.
Yeah feminism was bad for women alright. Ask those women in the Middle East and Africa who suffer clitoris removal and forced marriage at 12 if feminism would be bad.
Is it all good? Of course not there are tradeoffs in everything. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 4:17:35 PM | From Dictionary dot com:
fem·i·nist [fem-uh-nist]
adjective Sometimes, fem·i·nis·tic .
1. advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.
Not BETTER rights than men - EQUAL rights with men. What's so bad about that? It can certainly benefit men as well.
Mixing "feminist" with "the feminist movement" is a common error. As I said before, the feminist movement was/is a relatively small group who tended towards the radical to get their points heard - similar to PETA, MoveOn, the early gay rights groups and others who have had to go far out on a limb merely to get press coverage. Many of these groups alienate people with their extremist views, but they do get dialogue started and raise awareness of their chosen issues. One can be against cruelty to animals without agreeing with PETA's entire platform or the tactics they use. Works the same way for feminism. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 5:33:07 PM | ~OT~
If one delves a tad further into what a "feminist" is or aspires to be or believes in, here's a little food for thought:
Feminist activists campaign for women's rights – such as in contract law, property, and votingo
– while also promoting bodily integrity, autonomy and reproductive rights for women. Feminist campaigns have changed societies, particularly in the West, by achieving women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, equal pay for women, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property.[7][8] Feminists have worked to protect women and girls from domestic violence, sexual harassment, and sexual assault.[9][10][11] They have also advocated for workplace rights, including maternity leave, and against forms of discrimination against women.[7][8][12] Feminism is mainly focused on women's issues, but because feminism seeks gender equality, some feminists argue that men's liberation is a necessary part of feminism, and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
~ We women can now own property, we can vote. Woo hoo ~ old news.
~ Now let's examine the rest of this "movement" for good measure:
Women are no longer "suffering" ~ that ended in the latter 1800's and is a ridiculous argument to this current droning on in this particular thread.
~ Attempting "gender neutrality" is a frickin' joke because until I grow a penis, I'm different than any man (unless said man has no penis and then that is a whole different scenario as in the case of Chas Bono or maybe even John Bobbitt for a time until they Velcro-ed his back on or rather, surgically repaired him....regardless, women are NOT men, so this part of this debate is beyond silliness.)
~ Equal pay? Stop complaining about it and do something to increase your salary. Here's a list of the highest paying jobs in 2012: http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/02/27/the-best-jobs-of-2012?page=3
These are NOT gender specific. If you wanna earn what the-boy-next-door earns? Seek out those jobs. Now if you wanna complain because you can't do the job a man can do or don't choose to do so (ie: crabbing in Alaska, underwater welding, mining, oil rig drilling in Texas, etc., which are hard manual labor but pay great money per season) that's on you and YOU alone. Wanna do the work men do? Put on your big boy panties and get at it.
~ Here's the fun part of the "movement". Maternity leave. Really? Want the right to take 6 weeks of because you CHOOSE to have a child? Sorry!! You have that child, you get released from the hospital, you arrange child care and you get your tired ass back to the job site, office, or whatever it is you do. But STOP making this a double-edged sword. You want equality? Make yourself an equal. Stop wanting SPECIAL treatment because you don't have a penis, rather a uterus.
~ Domestic Violence? Perpetual victims. The fastest rising rate of domestic violence instances are men (gay & straight) but the reality is? These cases are not readily reported because most men feel there is no where to go to be taken seriously when they are abused by their female spouse. Domestic violence is non-gender-specific and until the "movement" gets on board and agrees this is reality? The "movement" and those gung-ho re: it? Are contributing to the abuse of men all across the US of all ages.
Bottom line? Those who want equality that they feel are not getting equal treatment are those who actually want special treatment. Want equal pay? Do equal manual labor. Want to have a baby. By all means, do so. Go back to work the moment you're able to walk because you don't need to be at home for 6 weeks to three months breast feeding an offspring because a bottle will suffice and that can be given to a baby by anyone who knows how to fill it and put it in the wee-one's mouth. Want domestic violence to stop? Be aware ~ rather than a perpetual victim. Want to blame men for the inequalities in this world? Look in the mirror, because most of what's being touted in this thread is so anti-man it makes me wonder who on earth raised my gender-peers to be so disrespectful when they claim all they want is respect. JMO  | |
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1ukn4u
| | Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 719 | |
| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 7:26:36 PM |
Not BETTER rights than men - EQUAL rights with men. What's so bad about that? It can certainly benefit men as well.
OMG! you tell it girl! That's exactly what I've been saying all along. Are you on my side or theres? Who ever's side your on I'm fixing to join that side. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 7:50:57 PM | Well, I'm on my own side, I guess, since verygreeneyez and other posters are trying to tell me what my views are as a feminist, even though I have no idea why or how I became "anti-man". I like men - always have. I get along well with men, except Neanderthals. I don't participate in man-bashing, because bashing any group as a whole is wrong.
But I guess since I think all people ought to have equal rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES, I am anti-man and have my head up my azz.
Shrug.
So, they can bash me...it won't change my mind, I will still stand up for men and women to have equal rights and fair treatment and will go on enjoying the company of my guy friends and especially my future partner. | |
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1ukn4u
| | Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 721 | |
| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 8:35:01 PM | | What kind of feminists are we? Is it a different kind or branch or what? I'm down with you. Seriously. Your good. I love what you have to say there. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 9:49:35 PM |
Want the right to take 6 weeks of because you CHOOSE to have a child? Sorry!! You have that child, you get released from the hospital, you arrange child care and you get your tired ass back to the job site,
While I can certainly see the viewpoint here, I believe that denying women maternity leave when medically needed would be seen as a detriment to children and "anti-family", which is exactly what the "anti-feminists" have been accusing feminism of being! There are now employers who are granting new fathers some paid leave...if maternity leave is abolished I'm sure that paternity leave will be too. And lets' be real-giving birth is a physical/physiological process-and a C-section is SURGERY. It's pretty much an accepted premise of medicine that certain physical ,medical, surgical events require some recovery time. I do not think that women are "entitled" to months and months of paid leave for what medical science has rendered optional,but if maternity leave is gutted, then you will have a huge outcry that feminism/equal rights are endangering babies, mothers and the family.
Another point-here in the US, though, denying specific maternity leave would simply be made a moot point because any enterprise with over a certain number of employees is covered by FMLA and that can be claimed by ANYONE who has a medical issue or a family member that needs care(which could be a newborn,or it could be one's elderly parent, or a spouse injured in a car accident). It is not paid leave, but it is(the last I knew) 12 weeks and one is SUPPOSED to be able to return to one's former work assignment or one that is equal. I say "supposed" because I think this is where SOME employers take the opportunity to "get even" with an employee who dared to invoke it. And it does not cover all employment situations. However, where it is available, if maternity leave is done away with, women who want a family will just use Family Medical Leave Act. Take THAT away to prove some theoretical point, and EVERYONE will be deprived...how many here would like to be FORCED to choose between their employment and caring for a child who is undergoing cancer treatment? This is where feminism/equality has done some indirect good-making it "safe" in terms of one's employment, to take time off work to care for a family member or oneself in the case of serious illness or injury,via FMLA.
Other than that-no, I also do not agree with lowering standards for occupations where physical strength is critical...
but keep in mind that there are situations where SOME males might fail to meet the standard and SOME women might meet or exceed it.
There is also something to be said for situations where it might be presumed that pure strength is needed but there may be other ways to "skin" whatever"cat" is at issue.
I also have to comment on another posters' feelings that now women are expected to both work full-time outside the home,and have a spouse, family and household with her taking on the majority of the "traditional" responsibilities as well.
I have been a close observer of some scenarios where this was indeed happening,even to the point of the woman being expected to manage the bulk of household bills and expenses.
I'm certainly not saying that all men, most men, or even a lot of men use "you wanted equal rights that means you have to do everything" -or "almost everything" reasoning-or that when it does happen, it's intentionally nefarious behavior on the mans' part! But I can understand that posters viewpoint.
Unfortunately, the right to "renegotiate" is often easier said than done-and I suspect that the renegotiation process is what some of those opposed to "feminism" are calling "destruction of the family."
I think we all realize that it is simply a fact of human nature that some people will seek any opportunity or advantage to "have their cake and eat it too", and thereby muddy the true philosophy of various movements and "isms".
Cindy O | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 10:05:21 PM | As we all know, there are radical feminists. As we also know, there are radical anti-feminists. In both cases, they close their ears and minds and spew angry rhetoric and expend their energies in a hateful way designed to further fracture true equality, rather than to seek its advancement.
~ Equal pay? Stop complaining about it and do something to increase your salary. Here's a list of the highest paying jobs in 2012:
Women aren't complaining about earning the highest paying income. In the case of legitimate complaints, it's in equal positions where they have the equal ability, education and experience as a man but get paid less. It's very convenient to continually bring up jobs where physical strength of a man is the norm and thinking those are the positions women are attempting to push their way into, even though it's proven they don't have the strength for the job. This would be as ridiculous as men attempting to be a breast milk donor with the La Leche Leauge. Radicals will attempt to go overboard in their endeavours - that's why they're called radicals. The reality is that the disparity in the vast majority of cases is in positions where no physical strength, or very limited physical strength is a requirement, and again, physical strength has no bearing whatsoever on mental acuity - in this regard, both men and women have their individual strengths and weaknesses - note I said "individual" not as a group. See table 4 in the following - this is in Canada: http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/2010-30-e.htm
Next rant:
~ Here's the fun part of the "movement". Maternity leave. Really? Want the right to take 6 weeks of because you CHOOSE to have a child? Sorry!! You have that child, you get released from the hospital, you arrange child care and you get your tired ass back to the job site, office, or whatever it is you do. But STOP making this a double-edged sword. You want equality? Make yourself an equal. Stop wanting SPECIAL treatment because you don't have a penis, rather a uterus.
As indignantly righteous as the above post attempts to be, I don't know about the States but here we have 35 weeks of "parental" benefits - for either or both parents. It's not gender specific - here we have a great step in the right direction - equality for both genders. In cases where women bear a child and are the higher wage earner, it may be more advantageous for the man to stay home and be the caregiver, or where there is a partnership where one individual works and the other was always the stay at home partner, it allows the working individual to take time off to assist in the early stages and establish a closer bond with the new child. Or they may decide to take the most limited of time off. It's, again, a matter of choice instead of society's bullies attempting to tell people they can't do something by virtue of gender.
EI parental benefits are offered to parents who are caring for a newborn or newly adopted child. A maximum of 35 weeks of parental benefits is available to biological or adoptive parents. The two parents can share these 35 weeks of benefits.
http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/sc/ei/benefits/maternityparental.shtml
~ Domestic Violence? Perpetual victims. The fastest rising rate of domestic violence instances are men (gay & straight) but the reality is? These cases are not readily reported because most men feel there is no where to go to be taken seriously when they are abused by their female spouse. Domestic violence is non-gender-specific and until the "movement" gets on board and agrees this is reality? The "movement" and those gung-ho re: it? Are contributing to the abuse of men all across the US of all ages.
Why the sudden turn around here. I thought this was the stance:
Want domestic violence to stop? Be aware ~ rather than a perpetual victim
Truth be told, men largely haven't reported as much until recently because of the disbelief, derision and scoffing from their own gender. That they are reporting it more could be an indication of increased incidences, or a case of it increasing or decreasing at the same rates during the same periods as when women experience it (such as during times of economic stress). There's no doubt at all that it happens. Society can't create the same amount of shelters and special programmes for victims unless and until they become aware there is a need for it. Humanists/feminists who espouse equality, rather than gender bashing that radicals tend to do, would be just as willing to assist in this regard for men as they have been for women.
Look in the mirror, because most of what's being touted in this thread is so anti-man it makes me wonder who on earth raised my gender-peers to be so disrespectful when they claim all they want is respect.
What is being touted by the vast majority in this thread has absolutely no element of anti-man but everything to do with equality for both genders. Speaking of mirrors... | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 11:56:02 PM | | I'm a feminist, from my perspective judging women for their choices is very anti-feminist. A lot of feminists are take time to raise families because they think that their strenght is in bearing and raising children (don't know if you've ever seen woman spelled womban but thats part of the same movement) But feminism is as diverse as women themselves - makes me cringe just a bit when I see women not on board with feminism :o( Only because I see it as a movement for equality, and I truly believe that feminism has been connected with many human movements, and the spin doctors have manage to take its potential away :o( I still see misogynistic attitudes prevailing, in the same way that I still see racist attitudes prevailing. | |
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| Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 12:27:21 AM |
In the case of legitimate complaints, it's in equal positions where they have the equal ability, education and experience as a man but get paid less.
When you get down to the brass tacks of it, a business's main goal is to make a profit. So why would any business hire men if they can get the same degree of output from women while paying them less?
It's rarely the case where ability, education, and experience are comparable AND the gap is anywhere near 75 cents to the dollar (or whatever it is now). There are probably other factors that aren't being accounted for.
- Women take time off work twice as much as men do.
- Your average full-time working male works 6 hours a week more than your average full-time working female.
- Men are generally the ones that have been at the same jobs for 10-20 years
- Women are the ones that are having kids and working part-time, if at all, after the kids are born.
- Men are more likely to actually negotiate their pay and ask for raises instead of just hoping to get noticed for their accomplishments
- Men are more likely to pick the more high-stress and higher paid areas of specialization within the same job title.
But hey, look at the bright side, ladies: Men are 93% of workplace casualties as well as 90% of the homeless. | |
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