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| | Free Energy Motors *sigh*Page 4 of 6 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) | F1 is another world. Closer to home, there's the Ford turbo ecoboost V6 that sips on 87 octane, and they put that thing in trucks that are going to see towing duty.
Not everything is super-developed though!
Thanks, that car is my toy! Yes, a car with quench distance on the large side, and combustion chambers that have the rough casting finish, but still working on a turbo project for it! Planning on 91 octane pump gas (so I can take it on road trips anywhere), and windshield washer fluid (again, readily available distilled water/alcohol anywhere) injection. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/19/2012 11:47:52 PM | Paul,,look at my first post on page one for the link. Even a google search will work
They have a hand held thermo gun now that you can point to the exhaust manifold to check temps ,it even has a red laser to point with.
Deeper into the stroke,,yes the stroke is fixed but fuel acts on the downward force for a shorter distance than steam will.
The reason explained to me why water is used when it first started being used.
If there is another reason please let me know (and the setup) Ive only seen the injection kits, never used one.
I do know about it reducing knock from popular mechanics article in the 70's
I'm not surprised about the reduction in exhaust gas temperature. That's what liquid water does. It cools stuff. I think there was confusion when you were talking about "temperature", usually engine temp refers to the temperature of the coolant/block/whatever.
As far as how long it takes for fuel to burn, and the relation to the stroke, the idealized Otto cycle engine would go like this:
1. Compress air/fuel mixture
2. Stop the piston at TDC
3. Light the spark plug and add heat
4. Once fuel is all burned, THEN allow the piston to move down.
Burning the fuel as quickly as possible near TDC allows for the most work to be harnessed from the expanding gas.
Real-life isn't so perfect - for practical reasons, we can't just stop a piston and then make it go again... However, we can try and get close to the ideal. If adding heat later in the cycle was good, then we would light spark plugs 90 degrees ATDC, but no, we don't, because that's not the timing that maximizes work output. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 12:35:17 PM | Hey sabby.........
The ONLY reason for water injection is knock reduction, and will NOT make more HP. Period. I will go again to a F-1 motor as an example. Today the stroke, that is how far the piston moves up and down is about 40mm............That is a little bit more than 1-1/2". With most modern car motors, the fuel burn is VERY complete, as that is the best way to have less effluvient go out the tail pipe. You really should consider that the '70's article in PM was just that, a '70's article......... automotive tech has gotten MUCH more advanced.
Lowering the temperature in a combustion chamber will do two things.... First it will reduce power, as the power is derived from the expanding gasses pushing down on the piston, The hydrocarbons will not burn as completely as they would otherwise, resulting in a much "dirtier" motor.
Paul K | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 12:38:00 PM | Hey Pat.........
You wrote:
"1. Compress air/fuel mixture
2. Stop the piston at TDC
3. Light the spark plug and add heat
4. Once fuel is all burned, THEN allow the piston to move down."
I am curious where you got that from, can you give me a cite, or what book or article it came from? The only thing that is correct is #1. If y ou are looking for optimum performance, then numbers 2,3 and 4 are not just worng, but way off base.
Paul K
Edit: If you go messing with the cumbustion chambers and intake and exhaust ports, do not finish them to a shiney finish, as that will cause fuel to pool up in droplets in the intake ports. You should leave them slightly rough, so they keep the air/fuel mixture "mixing". I could explaing, but don't have time to right now. You will get your best gains by re-working the intake ports, and doing the combustion chamber properly..... the exhaust ports really don't add much to HP..... at least not on the street level of tune. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 1:13:33 PM | Paul,,,yes my engine tech knowledge is out of date and water probably isn't used in the same manner anymore,It was in the early 80's when I first heard about using water in the way I described but pretty sure they did.
Yes have done my own porting and polishing before :) Have you seen the extrusion honing (abrasive flow machining)process for manifolds ?
Found something on water /methanol injection though.
http://snowperformance.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=54&lang=en
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_%28engines%29#cite_note-wilson-0
Have you checked out that book yet ? | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 2:07:16 PM | Hey sabby........
You wrote:
"Have you checked out that book yet ? '
I would be happy to if you would at least tell me the name of the book..............
Paul K | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 2:11:58 PM | First post page one.
A practical guide to free energy devices by Patrick Kelly(free download)
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/PJKBook.html | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 2:14:46 PM | Hey sabby......
From your cite:
"Due to the cooling effect of the water, aircraft engines can run at much higher manifold pressures without detonating, creating more power. This is the primary advantage of a water injection system when used on an aircraft engine."
Manifold pressure refers to how much boost a turbo is making............ What I said stands.
The other site was saying how a DIESEL motor dragster ran a 7.9 sec. quarter mile.......... Top fuel rails run the quarter in UNDER 4 secs, at over 300 mph......... no water injection.
Unless you can show me where F-1 banned water injection for making too much power, I call BS on that as well. it may have been banned, but NOT for making too much power. A properly designed motor does not need water injection to preven detonation...................
Paul K
Paul K | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 2:16:31 PM | Hey sabby........ the book you want me to read is about free energy?
Sorry, I don't have that much time to waste, as THERE IS NO SUCH THING.
Paul K | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 2:29:48 PM | Your loss,the very thing you were trying to do with magnets is in there.
Some insights,info, ideas yourself.
The problem with allowing ego into critical thinking ,you just become critical. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 3:39:52 PM | Hey sabby........
Ego??? How and why would you say that? I am 60 years old, have had a very good education, and spent enough time reading engineering papers on things like airflow dynamics, flame propgation, ignition, FI, intake/exhaust timing and many other subjects to the point that when I talk to engineers who work in the auto industry, I ask them quesitons they can't answer, and I answer questions they don't even know existed. One night, many years ago, I spent almost 4 hours talking with the chief design engineer for Cosworth Motors, who now make F-1 motors. He offered me a job, but then I was married and had a child, and loved So Cal, and the thought of moving to cold, foggy jolly 'ol England just did not seem appealling.
As far as free energy, the only loss there is the time that would be forever wasted by reading about something that is going to produce FREE ENERGY. IF anybody can make a device, be it magnet powered, or powered by whatever, that can light up just one, just ONE, 60 watt bulb, I would buy that from him, and make enough of them so that I could put them in parallel, and be off grid forever. WHY HAS NO ONE DONE THAT??????
Because none of those gizmos work.
Paul K | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/20/2012 9:10:02 PM | Actually, NONE of that is way off base. It's an idealized case. This is my based on own knowledge that I've acquired from who knows where, not taken from any particular book or article. Note that for discussion's sake, I just focused on a section of the cycle, not the entire Otto cycle.
Perhaps you're thinking that work is maximized with peak pressure around 15 deg ATDC. But that's an empirical value that occurs in real life, with real life fuel. That value has no basis from an ideal engine. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/22/2012 2:34:51 PM | True believers will not be swayed by facts.
Trying to make rational arguments with people who are not rational is like administering medicine to the dead.
Still, I do it anyway. Good luck. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/24/2012 12:22:02 PM | Hey sabby.............
Out of courtesy, I went to the site you pasted.....................
You're kidding, right? Do you really believe ANYTHING in that site at all?
If you do, you are as daft and silly as those that write the "articles".......... Actually, they are not daft and silly, they are making money on the daft and silly who buy their "products"..................
Say it ain's so.
I will look up the patent for the " vibrating magnet energy maker" when I have some time to waste, and let you know if it would work.
Paul K | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/24/2012 5:43:59 PM |
I will look up the patent for the " vibrating magnet energy maker" when I have some time to waste, and let you know if it would work.
I was more amused by the noble gas engine. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/24/2012 10:51:16 PM | It's just a site were you can see just about anything available on the topic instead of the download the book(book is better though)
Do I believe they all work,,No
Only the ones I have built for myself.(listed those already)
As someone interested in mechanical design,I like looking at different work,old patents.
Tinkering with ideas.
I only put the info out for people like myself interested in what is all out there on the subject.
Sometime just a little info is all that is needed to give someone that next great idea.
That's all. Take a pill and relax. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/24/2012 11:06:54 PM |
I was more amused by the noble gas engine.
ROFL. I suppose a monoammonium phosphate injector oughta make a nice addition :)! | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/25/2012 12:21:11 PM | Hey sabby...............
I have been dealing with folks who believe in conspiracies, in magnetic energy generation, in water injection for a LONG time. I have three nephews who believe almost word for word, and are always imploring me to be "open minded", to just look at things first, and not just go to what those old guys that were written about in physics books wrote a long time ago............
YOU are the same. When you said that the site you cited was worthy of looking at, because there were some things there that actually worked, well, I call BULL$HIT on that, because I will categorically say that if an idea is on that site, IT WILL NOT WORK.
I have an idea...... show me just ONE on that site that WORKS as advertised........ just one.
That having been said....... monoamonium phosphate injectors sound like a blast.....................
Paul K | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/25/2012 12:37:39 PM | ^^^ not my job and I don't care what you think.,
The info was not for you.Your not interested.
Have made up your mind it's all crap to scam money,,, Fine.
You don't sound like a inventor. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/25/2012 4:48:27 PM | Hey sabby..........
You said to me:
"You don't sound like a inventor."
Can you give me your definition of an "inventor"?
Paul K
edit. OK, throw me a bone, refer me to just ONE motor on the site that actually works indefinitly, or ctually creates energy....... just ONE..... Dude, I am not asking for much.
OK....... would holding a patent qualify me as an inventor?
US 6 595 177 B1 | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/26/2012 1:02:21 AM | A inventor wouldn't wait for someone else to do it first to prove it can be done.It would already be invented then.
A inventor wouldn't look for ideas for a new project among ideas that already work.It would already be invented then.
Now an engineer loves only proven tech to play with.
Are you an Eng. that got lucky?
You said yourself you tried working with magnetic repulsion.
What kind of research did you do before trying your design? Did you look at all the other designs to see if your design had already been attempted ? Look for insights on anything you might not have thought about in those designs ?
Or was it just a thread here on magnets as far as research goes.
Are you sure that Pats. yours? It's only your word after all ,no real proof.Just like I said I had small success with my first attempt with a hydrogen gen and you called b/s.That was just my word ,no real proof . :)
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/26/2012 1:34:35 PM | Whether or not you believe that the patent I cited was mine is of no consequence to me. To answer a few questions you asked...... I am not an engineer, but I do have a lot of knowledge/experience in the arena.
When I was going through the patent process, and it is a process, as it took almost two years, I had the idea, and built a non-working model that I could run airflow tests on, which I ran, and came up with amazing results, that are duplicatable anytime, anywhere. The non-working model has been to the engineering depts. at various places involved in high performance motors....... Ducati and Cosworth to name just two. Both gave me the exact smae answer, and that is that while it would produce a lot more power at very high RPM, it would be difficult to seal. Not impossible, but difficult. When I retire, and have a lot more disposable time on my hand, I will solve those problems, but even then, there is no guarantee that it would ever go in production.
As far as the patent process goes, at first i was going to do it myself, but realized that have a professional in the filed write it is the only real way to accomplish what you want to accomplish. During the process, listed in the patent itself are all of the other patents that were researched, and there are many, and found to be different enough to convince the patent examiners that I was actually "teaching new art"; which is the buzz phrase they use. Did you even go to the patent itself? Ask me anything you want about it, I'd be happy to explain why and how it works.
As far as magnet motors somehow being made to give more energy than they have is not possible because if you start with "x" amount of energy, unless you add energy to the device, you will never get "2x", or any fraction thereof, of energy. And as a matter of practicality, you will lose energy, and end up with less than you started.
As far as just "getting lucky", I have had 6 other patent applications that were denied because they were already granted. Three of them I am in the process of challenging, but that takes a lot of time and money, and the other three I applied less than 6 months after that particular patent had been granted.............. day late, dollar short.
I don't want to comment on your "hydrogen generation" device........... just talk to engineers who really are competent in the field if you don't believe me.
Paul K | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/26/2012 4:33:03 PM | The hydrogen/oxygen from water process is not mine,it's been around for a long time.We even did it in high school science class ,it does not take an Eng to understand.The output energy is still less than the input energy (of coarse)The key is just getting the required input energy for the process cheaply,like solar,wind or at least a little unused amps from the power already being made by your engine alt.
As long as the cost of water,sodium hydroxide and the electrical source are under the cost of the extra gas to get to the same distance I will continue tinkering with it.If gas prices dropped sharply it wouldn't be worth the effort.
Would you want to run your engine only on hydrogen? No,hydrogen embrittlement.
Why ask someone when I'm fully able to build one myself and see for myself.
That book I noted for download has 19 designs (Chapter 1) alone on magnetic devices .
Do they work ?,I don't know,never built one.
Some good research info to know if I were to try to invent one? (like yourself) Yes.
But your not interested in researching anything on unknown tech before you try it,you have already decided that it can't be done within your "vast" knowledge on magnets and those who try unknown tech should be cast out for there heresy against the engineers. lol. Your failed attempt proves it right? :)
Do what you want,,,It's been a slice. | |
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| Free Energy Motors *sigh*
Posted: 4/26/2012 4:47:00 PM | Hey sabby..........
You wrote:
"But your not interested in researching anything on unknown tech before you try it,you have already decided that it can't be done within your "vast" knowledge on magnets and those who try unknown tech should be cast out for there heresy against the engineers. lol. Your failed attempt proves it right? :) "
No, actually high school physics proves it............. A little education can go a long way.
sigh...........
Paul K | |
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