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| | The purpose of the universe?Page 3 of 3 (1, 2, 3) | | I agree so whole heartedly I can't believe I still believe in God. I definitely think that I was given an open mind for a reason...To reason!But damn if energy being a forever thing is kind of a paraodox or paradyne to my mind,Because how can you know you look forward or back enough to see the true begining or far enough ahead to see the ultimate end..Scientificly) Science and God are searches,studies,evidence and ultimitely revelation of truth.Both alike in that, until it all plays out or we can honestly say we know every damn thing now,WE DON'T KNOW;0..But I wanna know...Really like your stuff!thank you! | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/1/2012 7:44:52 PM | thanks for sharing that Dennett video. was interesting.
my issue with intelligence/god creating the universe...what intelligent being would include negative aspects to existence. if you were all powerful and could do anything, wouldn't you find a way around it? just like a programmer does their best to get all the bugs out of software. this is where the process of evolution makes more sense. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/3/2012 9:15:31 PM | -I thought the universe existed to sastify the number 42 ;)
Deep Thought stated the Ultimate Answer is "42". But reread "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" and remember what was the Ultimate Question. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/4/2012 5:13:22 PM |
Not necessarily only human, but that it always implies intent. I didn't invent that implication, it's explicit in the definition of 'purpose'. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/purpose http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpose http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpose_(disambiguation) First link, first definition
"the reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc."
2nd is a re-direct and 3rd is case specific and does not necessarily apply
There are many sources of definitions but the above three are representative.
The first -
purpose - noun
1. the reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc.
2. an intended or desired result; end; aim; goal.
3. determination; resoluteness.
4. the subject in hand; the point at issue.
5. practical result, effect, or advantage: to act to good purpose.
purpose - verb (used with object)
6. to set as an aim, intention, or goal for oneself.
7. to intend; design.
8. to resolve (to do something): He purposed to change his way of life radically.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/purpose
Note the emphasis on 'the reason for', 'aim', 'goal', etc etc
The second is indeed a redirect, but did you ask yourself why the Wiki definition for 'Purpose' redirects to the definition of 'Intention'?
Intention
"Intentionally" redirects here.
"Purpose" redirects here. For other uses, see Purpose (disambiguation).
Intention is an agent's specific purpose in performing an action or series of actions, the end or goal that is aimed at. Outcomes that are unanticipated or unforeseen are known as unintended consequences.
Intentional behavior can also be just thoughtful and deliberate goal-directedness. Recent research in experimental philosophy has shown that other factors may also matter for whether or not an action is counted as intentional.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpose
The third definition is the Wiki page "Purpose_(disambiguation)" which you dismissed as not necessarily applicable, but I beg to differ, I included it because it's entirely relevant.
Purpose (disambiguation)
Purpose is a word, that as a noun or a verb, has various meanings including: an object to be reached; a target; an aim; a goal; a result that is desired; an intention. Purpose's basic concept is an individual's voluntary behavior activity awareness. The concept has a significant history in religion, philosophy and science. Purpose can be operational defined as entity class property which may, but need not have consciousness. Intentionality, target-directedness, future orientation and a hypothetical result state are the central conceptual ingredients of purpose.
Purpose may refer to:
* Intention
* Goal
* Teleology
* Subject of discourse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpose_(disambiguation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology
The central meanings of 'purpose', applicable to the question "Does the Universe Have a Purpose?" all imply intention, an aim, and a goal. Which in turn either imply an author or "agent" who/which designed it with these things in mind, or suggest that the universe itself has a goal and is purposefully, intentionally working towards it.
Where is the evidence for this?
All the evidence we have suggests that the universe is a manifestation of the forces and processes that formed it, not the result of an intentional action - by the universe itself, or by an "agent". Likewise, the underlying processes betray no guiding "agent" responsible for contributing 'purpose', or a universe creating goal.
As far as we know, the universe (being everything known) couldn't have had an external 'cause' that preceded it, there's no built in 'purpose' that can be compared or contrasted with an alternate 'purpose'. It just 'is'.
Most of the 'purposes' suggested for the universe are just 'uses' or are purposes that are held by the users, not by the universe.
It's pedantic, but the definitions are very important if one is attempting to attribute 'purpose' to an object, or collection of objects, as significant as 'the universe'.
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I am open to entertaining that I might have described Dennett a bit wrong. I'm not a philosopher and I am certainly not Dan Dennett! But please address the overall talk and the overall issue of how teleology does or doesn't map onto evolution, both biological evolution (as discussed in the talk) and evolution of universes (as discussed in this forum).
Mostly I had no problem with the way you introduced the video, but the thread topic concerns 'the universe' and much of your introductory passage was about evolutionary biology. I quoted such a large chunk really only to be fair to you - it was the video I was interested in and you had introduced it.
So rather than dissect your post I simply noted, mostly because of a few scattered sentences regarding universes, that I didn't agree it was an 'entirely' accurate summary of Dennetts ideas.
With regard to the evolutionary biology parts it probably was, and is, but to the extent your post implied that the universe (or universes) can form intent then I think you've deviated from the implications of what Dennett was saying.
For instance -
I think Lagoda had a very good answer of mentioning Lee Smolin's speculation that maybe there are baby universes and there is an evolution of universes based on what universes have the properties to stick around. You idea fits into that nicely, as the creation of life that creates more universes like its own would be a good way to have universes stick around.
Note this idea of universes sticking around is a sort of purpose. That is an important sort of purpose that Dan Dennett discusses. The point is that in evolution things have purposes. (my emphasis)
Whether or not one accepts the idea that universes 'stick around' with or without spawning 'baby universes' all that is being described is a process. Not a purpose.
I don't agree, being mindful of the definition of 'purpose', that universes, persistent or otherwise, can form an intent or have a 'goal'. They are expressions of the natural forces that formed them - processes all. Successful ones (processes) tend to be repeated, unsuccessful ones expire.
To relate this to your later post, and further points about the application of the word 'purpose' to biology -
lyingcheat, you seem to only reference the beginning of the talk where Dennett distinguishes between "how come?" and "what for?" questions. That's only a small part of the bigger talk. Later in the video (after 18:02) Dennett discusses how in evolution you gradually transitioned from only asking "how come?" questions to also asking "what for?" questions. And once you get to that point, my description of what Dennett is say, though obviously not his precise choice of words, accurately captures how "what for?" equations are relevant to evolution. What is the purpose of eyes? Well, you can ask the "how come?" question of the process by which eyes evolved. But you can also ask the "what for?" question of what are eyes for? Eyes are for seeing.
You are right that the evolution of photo-sensitive cells leading to 'eyes' is a "how come?" question. The short answer is by billions of evolutionary processes over a billion years or so.
Can these processes be said to have a purpose, a goal, an intent? Or is it only that the results and outcomes of the unsuccessful processes, of which there were just as many, simply expired so that all we have is the apparent successful outcome (eyes) of what now looks like a neat and tidy goal directed process driven by purpose.
It's my contention that the processes, being merely explorations of possibility with success being rewarded, are neutral with regard to motivational intent or purpose.
However, the end result (an eye) does have a 'purpose', it's a tool used for 'seeing' but the intent sense of 'purpose', resides with the organism it is embedded in, who/which is capable of forming an intent, unlike a detached eyeball.
Note that many cave dwelling beasties have non-functional eyes - what is the 'purpose' of that?
It's pedantic to stick so closely to the definitions but IMO ascribing 'purpose' to processes and functions is skating very close to Intelligent Design, which inevitably leads to a 'Designer' - which is just a pseudonym for a 'God' thing.
In terms of purpose a universe is no different to an atom. They are both just manifestations of forces and possibilities.
Does the sun have a purpose? Not really.
It has lots of uses, and it's fantastic at converting hydrogen to helium, but does it 'know' what it is doing? Did it form to fulfil the 'purposes' we ascribe to it? Does it have intent? A goal?
Do industrial robots have a 'purpose'? In the sense they are used for something they do, but that purpose was built into them by an agent that had a goal in mind and was capable of forming an intent.
As the robots whizz about assembling cars or whatever they have no personal goals, and they're not thinking about their intentions - they have no internal, intrinsic, sense of purpose, and don't need one to exist.
Does a shaded bend in an isolated creek that supports a rare species of frog be said to have a purpose? Or is the fact that it supports those frogs just an accident? Can the creek be thought to have been formed with intent, or is it just a fortunate manifestation of natural forces?
If it was formed with intent, who holds it? The creek? Or a 'designer'?
Once again - the strict definition of 'purpose' becomes important in answering these questions.
Eyesight enables you to do a range of things like seeing prey and predators that is useful for survival. Eyes were designed, there just was not intelligent designer. There is a "what for?" purpose to eyes, just no intelligent intent behind that purpose. Moreover, if you want to be technical about things (to some extent I do) the genes for eyes have the purpose of allowing the organism to survive long enough to pass on the eye genes and thus eye genes can stick around. Eye genes are in one of these cycles, part of the reproductive cycle, that Dennett talks about.
Eyes aren't 'designed'. Eyes evolve. They evolved in many different ways to suit many different conditions.
Evolution isn't a process of 'designing' things, it's a process of semi-random development with fitness enhancing, or advantage conferring, adaptions being rewarded.
They might seem 'designed' because they more or less suit the purpose we use them for, but human eyes are badly 'designed' compared to octopus eyes, which are very similar.
Genes (for whatever) have a function they express through a process, which is why it follows that genes that enhance the organism tend to persist.
Reading 'purpose' into non-conscious mechanical or biological processes is not much different to reading meaning in entrails. Or interpreting the past in retrospect and attributing meaning, or 'purpose', to some random past event that deterministically brought about the present as if it were 'ordained' somehow. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/4/2012 6:49:11 PM |
It's pedantic, but the definitions are very important if one is attempting to attribute 'purpose' to an object, or collection of objects, as significant as 'the universe'.
You're right, they are.
But what is required for a definition
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition
A definition (≝) is a passage that explains the meaning of a term (a word, phrase or other set of symbols), or a type of thing. The term to be defined is the definiendum. A term may have many different senses or meanings.
and
Like other words, the term definition has subtly different meanings in different contexts. A definition may be descriptive of the general use meaning, or stipulative of the speaker's immediate intentional meaning. For example, in formal languages like mathematics, a 'stipulative' definition guides a specific discussion. A descriptive definition can be shown to be "right" or "wrong" by comparison to general usage, but a stipulative definition can only be disproved by showing a logical contradiction
I'm using reference 1, definition 1. "the reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc"
I'm specifying use in the context. In this case, the the argument I am making is based on use. In this case, I'm discussing "the reason something is used". This still fits the definition of purpose.
The central meanings of 'purpose', applicable to the question "Does the Universe Have a Purpose?" all imply intention, an aim, and a goal. Which in turn either imply an author or "agent" who/which designed it with these things in mind, or suggest that the universe itself has a goal and is purposefully, intentionally working towards it.
I just re-read the entire OP... with reference to it's context, you're so right.
However, I'm not going to let the OP dictate my stand-point. The universe still has a purpose, even if it is not it's own purpose, even if it didn't create it's purpose or intent it... it is solely in how we use it. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/4/2012 7:56:43 PM |
However, I'm not going to let the OP dictate my stand-point.
Fair enough. Topics evolve. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/4/2012 9:40:32 PM | In this case, the topic had a designer. Perhaps he even had a purpose, however, the thread is more-so being used to debate the definition of the word purpose. The definition of purpose is dependent on the context in which they are used.
It's quite obvious to me that we must now discuss the definition of evolve in the given context.
ref: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evolve
To develop or achieve gradually
(my best guess of the definition in the given context)
It's debatable that this topic was designed with purpose. It is undeniable that it has evolved. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/4/2012 9:44:07 PM |
Do they evolve, or are they designed with a purpose?
Ah, "the best laid plans of mice and men...". | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/5/2012 12:44:40 AM |
The Nature and Purpose of the Universe
The Nature and Purpose of the Universe is a play written by Christopher Durang, first produced in 1975. The work is an absurdist comedy concerning the irony of Catholic dogma, a theme visited in other Durang plays.
Nature and Purpose deals primarily with an unhappy housewife's religious faith being tested by nightmarish circumstances which church dogma teaches she must willingly endure.
Plot
Two "agents of God" explain the nature and purpose of the universe to the audience, using the Mann family of suburban New Jersey for illustration.
At the center of the story is Eleanor, a sweet, sad housewife horribly treated by her husband Steve and most every other character in the play, most of whom are actually the "agents of God" in disguise.
Eleanor's oldest son Donald is a drug addict, a dealer, and a pimp, middle son Gary an angry homosexual, and youngest son Andy has lost his penis in a reaper accident. When it seems to Eleanor that there isn't any hope for escape from her miserable existence, a door-to-door brush salesman professes his love for her and promises he'll return to carry her away forever, however, the salesman is actually one of the agents of God once again testing Eleanor's threshold for misery.
After numerous trials and tribulations (including a sadistic rape) the revelation that the brush salesman was lying, and a Papal assassination, the family finds itself exiled in Iceland, where it appears Eleanor's nightmare will only continue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nature_and_Purpose_of_the_Universe
It ^ ^ ^ sounds just like real life... | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/5/2012 4:30:02 AM |
There is NO purpose of the universe.
Like myself, it merely "is."
Gwendolyn had it right in msg 21. I don't know why so many people have to ascribe a purpose to something...Are they trying to justify their own existence? | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/6/2012 11:34:50 AM | My vote was with Gwendolyn also :)
imo,purpose of the universe,meaning of life,you ,me. is
Life, the universe,you, me are like a stone arch were every stone is a meaning/purpose.
But every stone is also a keystone .
To pull one stone to claim as the most important collapses the arch into nothing.
The easiest word that can describe the whole without limiting it to just a single aspect of the whole,,
"is" | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/9/2012 1:32:32 PM | | While you folks are getting this figured out, I need to see if that mockingbird on my mailbox can show me how to rebuild my transmission. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/9/2012 2:13:13 PM |
While you folks are getting this figured out, I need to see if that mockingbird on my mailbox can show me how to rebuild my transmission.
The purpose is what we choose it to be. Although, objectively neutral, I can see the serendipitous, glass half full intent, as I assume you do Secondhand. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/10/2012 5:25:12 AM | In the beginning, there was something. And that something is something that we can be sure of. Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore, I am. Therefore I exist. Therefore something exists. Therefore something has always existed, for nothing can beget nothing, and the only thing that something can come from is another something. So, there is something that is, that always has been, and probably always will be, for something that has always been must surely not be able to vanish into nothing.
If you feel this something is God, call it God. If you feel it is Allah, name it Allah. If you find fit to call it Jehovah, Jehovah may it be. But whether God, Allah, Jehovah, I am who is called I Am, it is all one and the same. It is what embodies everything. You will not find it in a book, a church, a mosque, or a synagogue. But underneath every stone, every piece of wood, in the blood coursing through our veins. It is what all is made of, born of energy and light, condensed into matter, fused in the furnaces of trillions of thermonuclear fires, atoms. The building blocks of all you can see. Identical, interchangeable, quantized, all throughout the universe. And as those furnaces ran down on fuel, they formed more and heavier atoms, running through the cycle till at last there was nothing left to fuse. At which point, gravity takes over, the outward pressure of thermonuclear fusion stopping and not being enough to maintain the equilibrium of the force of gravity, compressing the constituent building blocks of matter further and further, until it could not take it anymore, and it burst forth as a supernova, spreading its building blocks all throughout the galaxy. The remnants coalesce, grouping, clumping, forming protoplanets and stars. Gradually they come together, smoothly, in proportioned orbits, around the beginning of a new star that sparks to life, igniting the nuclear fire that will bathe the planets with life giving light and electromagnetic energy. Molecules forming, rearranging, duplicating, reproducing. Life. And from one seed. One spark. One spore. An entire tree of life is born. Populating, colonizing, affecting the very chemistry of the atmosphere, changing the course of life. Oxygen, massive volcanic eruptions, global climate change, asteroids. A star like object falling from the heavens. Apocalypse. Death. Destruction. Renewal. A chance to grow in directions unforeseen. Mammals, primates, apes, hominids, humans. That spark of intelligence that changes everything, colonizes, spreads, reproduces. Memes. Culture. Religion. Language. Mathematics. Science. The ability to see and understand where all this has come from. From atoms to Adam. From stardust to Us. This is the greatest story ever told, and we're the ones writing it.
Simple commandments. Love and to be loved. To treat one another with the respect, compassion, and humility you would like to receive. To fear not the unknown, to not give in to our worse nature. To be our brothers keeper. To enjoy life and all that it has to offer. Life is a gift to be enjoyed. A brief span, eighty years if you're lucky, a hundred twenty at the most, bookended by Thirteen Billion Seven Hundred Million before, and all of eternity after. So have fun while you're here. Be merry! Rejoice! Love and be loved! Drink and be drunk! Partake of the fruits of knowledge. They are there for you to use them. Do not deny yourself now. For Heaven and Hell exist on Earth, here, right now. It is in how we choose to live our lives. Live to be free. Explore and enjoy! Live to love and love to live! Love! Love! Love! For God is Love. God is us knowing each other, and exploring all of creation together, in unity. One living soul, one tree of life, one spark that led to You and I, and Him and Her, and those over there, and the dog at the foot of your bed. The cat pawing at your head as you're trying to sleep. The meat that we eat, the grain that forms our daily bread. The nano-machines that generate the oxygen we breathe, the powerhouse of our cells, and the fuel that we put in our cars. The lions, the tigers, the bears. The snakes, the lizards, the toads. The fungus that grows on your feet between your toes. The mites on you brow, the innumerable bacteria that live on you and in you. All from that one, tiny spark. Amazing, isn't it? | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/10/2012 6:29:27 PM |
nothing can beget nothing
Are you sure of this? Have you ever performed experiments with nothing to prove it "begets nothing" ? | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/10/2012 8:51:24 PM | I am pleased to see a few people here quoting Hitchhiker's. I would have been deeply disappointed if some hadn't.
Everyone's answer is going to be based on their faith or scientific reasoning. I think that science and faith can co-exist but that's another discussion...
My belief is that our universe exists so that all of us "spirits having human experiences" can learn the lessons we are here to learn. (Don't freak out, I also believe in karma, reincarnation, other dimensions, and spiritual ascension. OMG!)
Now, remember boys and girls, belief is a matter of opinion. Opinions are just opinions. You may agree or disagree with someone's opinions but unless you can PROVE them wrong scientifically, then people are entitled to their opinions and to their beliefs.
An aside: I've had people ask me if I "believed" in global warming. As if it's an opinion rather than a scientific fact. C'mon, ya gotta laugh. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/11/2012 2:23:45 AM | | conflict (meaning point/counterpoint) is the catalyst of existence. I don't know how else to put it. imperfection is also another important part. because if true perfection existed, there would be no tangible universe as we know it. Imagine a completely perfect mass of hydrogen atoms all spaced out evenly, the gravitational pull on each one keeping them all at set intervals from each other in all three dimensions. in essence a perfect 3 dimensional grid of atoms. there would be no stars no planets, just a sea of nuclei with one proton and one electron. Imagine removing just a couple of those atoms from that perfect formation, gravity will do what gravity does, and the atoms will begin to pull in certain directions, which will then gain in speed and momentum creating the super heated clouds of atomic dust which makes the matter we see in front of us. that counterpoint to perfection became existence as we know it. I may be completely off the mark though. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/12/2012 4:07:04 AM | I like this statement as far as the purpose of the universe, not saying it is true or false, no way of "proving it" with clinical trials and whatnot....lol... but it's from the mystic, Jacob Boehme's, The Signature of All Things.
"We understand that without nature there is an eternal stillness and rest, viz. the Nothing; and then we understand that an eternal Will arises in the Nothing, to introduce the Nothing into Something, that the Will might, find, feel and behold itself. For in the Nothing, that Will would not be manifest to itself."
So, according to Boehme, in part, the purpose of the universe is for it to find, feel, and behold itself. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 5/20/2012 1:52:01 PM | | I don't know what the purpose of the universe is, but I've figured out what the purpose of these supposed science/philosophy forums are. Using an absence of information to create a source of contention. What an achievement. | |
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| The purpose of the universe?
Posted: 6/2/2012 1:49:06 AM | ^^^^^Amen brother! LOL
The universe is here because I need a place to store all my sh*t. | |
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