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 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 101
god .... its all in your head say scientists Page 5 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Ironically, Jo Van,you come across as a zealot for non-belief...
You dehumanize believers as stupid...
It reminds me of the propaganda against the jews in nazi germany..." they are "unworthy"/" unlike" us..."
I shudder to think what would happen to people of faith if someone like you got into power, you sound like you'd have us all killed...
 Lusipher
Joined: 9/7/2010
Msg: 102
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:12:03 AM
You know a discussion/debate is dead in the water, once people bring up or start comparing the people they're arguing with to Hitler or the Nazis

/Godwin'sLaw

Vvvvvv

I did see the difference.

I'm not even saying that the point you're trying to make is wrong. I do think the poster in question is pretty blinkered regarding this theme (although they're not really much worse than a zealous believer)

However, once people bring Nazis and/or Hitler into a discussion - which you did (or compare someone to them - which you didn't) then that discussion is usually doomed.
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 103
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:26:28 AM
go back and read what I said...
I didn't compare him to Hitler, I compared his denunciation of believers as stupid reminiscent of nazi propagandists; "othering" people, claiming to have statistics to back up his claims of their inferiority...

See the difference?
 marcochampo
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 104
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:30:30 AM
i don't think that science is set out to disprove the existence of god, science by its nature is out to discover how things work and became to be..
its only when science discovers a new fact about the universe and evolution of life ,
those that believe in religion are up in arms, screaming that science is out to disprove religion as seen by this and other threads.

The universe is much older than life itself, so when someone posts
@msg102

in the begining there was a nowt.then a bang.then planets and stars.then little germs that turned into creatures.that eventualy evolved into intelligent life forms and animals and super intelligent humans that can fly to the moon and create spage age type technology.etc and on top of this we still have the miracle of nature and others things that cannot be explained proper .and all of this came from nowt.?


many of the elements needed for life were not formed until at least 200 million years after the big bang,,
so life did not evolve from nowt..
we are all by products of the stars .our star is around half way through its life span, in around 4 billion years it will expand and collapse under its own gravity eventually becoming a white dwarf..

The biggest cosmic event we are heading for is the emanate collision with our neighbouring galaxy the andromeda in around 3 billion years.

Amongst others ,Science are also studying and plotting near earth orbits of asteroids and comets .

My point is religions can not validate there claims,
and science has no place for religious mumbo jumbo
 dwight_the
Joined: 7/4/2010
Msg: 105
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:35:59 AM
@above .And how you know that what you wrote is true,you read it somewhere??

I find it that people who are losing a debate always rush to quote that Goodwin fella...
 Lusipher
Joined: 9/7/2010
Msg: 106
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:42:00 AM
1. If I was a an omnipotent cosmic architect that went around creating universes - even cosmic entities need hobbies - and covered my tracks by aging the Universe and everything in it, hid all traces of my existence, and set up loads of stuff (that makes perfect sense) for science to discover... How would any scientist ever know that I did any of that?


2. If all of existence was just a figment of my imagination (something that cannot be proved or disproved) wouldn't that mean that "god" IS in my head - or to be more precise, my mind?

@msg 112

Feel free to believe that if you wish. I would only bring up Godwin's Law if the Nazis/Hitler were making a needless appearance in a discussion.

I don't know how I've "lost" as both camps of the hardcore types aren't even discussing the actual topic.

I think there is a faint possibility that "god" could be within the mind... I just don't have the mythological idea of who/what God is, that most people seem to.

Plus I don't think this discussion is about religion, but yet again it's turned into an I'm right-you're wrong discussion, when the truth is that nobody even knows for sure.

God and religion aren't the same thing... They don't even have to be related
 marcochampo
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 107
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:46:00 AM
@112
i have done some reading , but also
simple chemistry tests will validate my claims, on how elements are formed ,

Could you validate any of your claims ?
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 108
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:49:46 AM
If you care to check back, the quote that you have attributed to me, which included the word 'nutters' is a direct lift from Post 103 by Try I More, which appears after mine.

OOPS!
Sincerest Apologies Light star!

You're quite right, it was Try1more, NOT you.
(And it was msg:81, I guess we all make mistakes)
It was very late! I knew I should have just gone to bed, but no work today, so I pushed the boat out)
Try1: Grrrrr!


ronically, Jo Van,you come across as a zealot for non-belief...
You dehumanize believers as stupid...
It reminds me of the propaganda against the jews in nazi germany..." they are "unworthy"/" unlike" us..."
I shudder to think what would happen to people of faith if someone like you got into power, you sound like you'd have us all killed...

Hahaha!
Why don't you check out what they've done since then, all based on a belief in "god".
Ethnic cleansing, based on some strange notion of "race", has dispossessed the Palestinians of the lands they'd lived on for centuries.
700, 000 in 1948 alone, and an immigration of about 3.5 million people from elsewhere.
Elsewhere in the region, there are mullahs hanging homo's from crane jibs, in public squares, women being stoned to death, for having been raped.
Teachers killed, for teaching girls, genital mutilation, and 'jihad'....
But no, "I'm a zealot"...?
And apparently, daring to point out that all this stuff simply isn't true, as well as being more than a little bit 'crazy', makes me a "nutter"..?

So, some of you have said you don't understand the "Big Bang", or how matter was formed..?
And because you don't understand it, that means those who do, must be wrong..?
And it must have all "been created"...?
It's easy to see how religions get started, isn't it..?

You know a discussion/debate is dead in the water, once people bring up or start comparing the people they're arguing with to Hitler or the Nazis

/Godwin'sLaw

I thought the "Law" Stated that they've "Lost"...?


Edit:

1. If I was a an omnipotent cosmic architect that went around creating universes - even cosmic entities need hobbies - and covered my tracks by aging the Universe and everything in it, hid all traces of my existence, and set up loads of stuff (that makes perfect sense) for science to discover... How would any scientist ever know that I did that?

2. If all of existence was just a figment of my imagination (something that cannot be proved or disproved) wouldn't that means that "god" is in my head - or to be more precise, my mind?

1/, Why would a "cosmic architect" seek to perform this "practical joke" on one particular species, in one particular galaxy...?
Was he bored.?
2/. Things existed before you were around, ask your parents. There's plenty of evidence, unless you're claiming that everyone else is also a figment of your imagination.
You're not the only sentient being.

edit, AGAIN:

Who's this they? Everyone who believes?
Everyone is capable of atrocities, atheists are no better than those who claim to believe...
Nonsense...
You're the only one using derogatory language, as usual....

"They" as in the "jews", "muslims" and "christians" killing each other (and us) for their beliefs in "god" and what the tora/koran/bible tells them "god said" to do.
Where's the "derogatory language"...?
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 109
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 9:10:19 AM
Who's this they? Everyone who believes?
Everyone is capable of atrocities, atheists are no better than those who claim to believe...
Nonsense...
You're the only one using derogatory language, as usual....
 marcochampo
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 110
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 9:32:26 AM
@msg 112

<div class="quote">@above .And how you know that what you wrote is true,you read it somewhere??

guess you have no proof then, i never really expected any..but no worries

i have said before , there is nothing wrong in believing in a almighty divine god,,
i know that some find comfort with it ...
what i think is that science and religion are two separate disciplines if you like ..
Science is looking for the complete answer where the results can be tested and scrutinised by others..
Religions are more of lifestyle ,where proof is not really an issue
@113

<div class="quote">2. If all of existence was just a figment of my imagination (something that cannot be proved or disproved) wouldn't that mean that "god" IS in my head - or to be more precise, my mind?

Science can prove without any doubt that you are alive and so exist,
we can not prove what you are thinking or what you believe in ,that's your freedom of will,
So if you or anyone else wants to believe in a cosmic super hero,then that's just fine and dandy..
it only becomes an issue when you try and convince others to join with your beliefs,
at that point it is up to you to substantiate your beliefs not science..


====================================================
@118

Yes. It is a possibility that all of existence and everything in it, could all be a part of one's imagination. A dream, if you like.

of course its a possiblilty,, so is anything that you may care to think of..the mind is a wonderful organ, we could all be living on the astral field .. but your concept has no place in science ,as it can not be tested ,, unless you can come up with something that we could scrutinise and decept,then it will and should remain within the bounds of your own mind..


If you were locked into a dream and there was no way to remove you from it... How could it be proven that you're dreaming?


their has been much research done over sleep patterns and brain activity especially during rem sleep.. so i would suspect that your dream state could be detected..
 Lusipher
Joined: 9/7/2010
Msg: 111
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 9:39:16 AM
@msg 115

What practical joke?

If I want to remove all traces of my existence so that all lifeforms - especially the sentient ones (when they eventually come into the picture) can just believe whatever they choose to believe, then it makes sense to give them a believable platform to base that belief on.

I have no faith/belief in the god, because I don't think it is concerned with us and it would make as much sense as believing in tables and chairs.

***

Yes. It is a possibility that all of existence and everything in it, could all be a part of one's imagination. A dream, if you like.

There is no way to prove it is or isn't true.

You're struggling with the concept and that's fine. It's a difficult one for many people to understand.

As I said earlier... The only thing I KNOW to be true, that I KNOW exists cannot be proven. EVERYTHING I have or will ever be aware of, could just be a product of my mind.

I don't think that's the case, but it's a fascinating theory.

So yes, my parents, all of history, crime, war, science, the arts, god, death, people on the forums, EVERYTHING could just be something created by my mind... which is why I think there is a possibility, that "god" is within the mind.

@msg 117

No. You are wrong.

Science cannot prove or disprove something like that.

If you were locked into a dream and there was no way to remove you from it... How could it be proven that you're dreaming?

Plus, I don't believe in God. Maybe you missed all the times I said that?

I just accept the possibility, that what I believe might be wrong.

I have said that IF there was a god, I would imagine it to be a cosmic architect.

The idea of solipsism fascinates me, as there is no way to know whether it is the truth or not... and that it would explain the idea that God is in your head (mind)

I disagree with atheists and Believers who refuse to accept the possibility that they might be wrong and who act as though what they believe is 100% truth.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 112
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 10:32:30 AM
@msg 115

What practical joke?

If I want to remove all traces of my existence so that all lifeforms - especially the sentient ones (when they eventually come into the picture) can just believe whatever they choose to believe, then it makes sense to give them a believable platform to base that belief on.

So you ( The "CA") want to give them freedom of choice, but you choose to deceive them..? And erradicate all trace of your existence..?
Surely if such an "omnipotent" being existed, he'd be just as capable of making his creations think whatever he wanted them to..?

It's like when people tell me the bible (or any other) is supposed to be cryptic, and require "study" to understand it's true meaning.. WHY..?
I mean if "god wanted" us to behave in a certain way, why not make that simple, and easily understandable, so that even young children could get it..?
None of it makes sense.
If "god" wanted us to "worship him", as the bible (and others) claim, why hide...?
And why start the religions, by only talking to one person..? And leave it to him, to spread it around, why not tell everyone, then we'd all be clear, what was wanted.
The JW's more or less explain fossil evidence, in the way you've described, they say those fossils were "planted" by "god" to "test our faith". WHY..?


I have no faith/belief in the god, because I don't think it is concerned with us and it would make as much sense as believing in tables and chairs.

***

Yes. It is a possibility that all of existence and everything in it, could all be a part of one's imagination. A dream, if you like.

There is no way to prove it is or isn't true.

You're struggling with the concept and that's fine. It's a difficult one for many people to understand.

As I said earlier... The only thing I KNOW to be true, that I KNOW exists cannot be proven. EVERYTHING I have or will ever be aware of, could just be a product of my mind.

I don't think that's the case, but it's a fascinating theory.

So yes, my parents, all of history, crime, war, science, the arts, god, death, people on the forums, EVERYTHING could just be something created by my mind... which is why I think there is a possibility, that "god" is within the mind.


I'm not struggling to understand it, I just don't see how it applies, when two people are both making the same claim, but only one of them could be "real"...?
I can understand how a hermit, or someone alone on a desert island, might formulate that hypothesis, but it seems to fail immediately, if there are others.


Edit VVV

BTW, what were your parents? Out of curiosity... If you don't mind me asking...

Just the usual..... One male, one female....
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 113
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 10:37:25 AM
Are you just prejudiced against the monotheist religions?
What about human sacrifice? A well-known pagan practice expressly forbidden first in the Torah?
Are pagans okay or do you have a problem with them too?
It seems like you're picking on some "God"s, but not others...
I think we should be told..
BTW, what were your parents? Out of curiosity... If you don't mind me asking...
 Lusipher
Joined: 9/7/2010
Msg: 114
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 10:52:11 AM
@msg 117

... and because it's a possibility, I accept that there might be a chance that my belief (in evolution and how the Universe came about) MIGHT be wrong.

***

So you're locked in a dream state, there is no way to get out... and who in your dream is going to be able to tell you, that everything around you is a dream?

The closest thing I can think of in modern culture, is The Matrix. You won't know you're dreaming until someone pulls you out of that dream.

Even if you suspect it's a dream, there's no way for you to know for sure until you've been taken out of it... and even then, who is to say that you're not in another dream?

@msg 119

Once again, the god you're speaking of (and discrediting) isn't the idea of god that I would imagine - if I believed god existed.

You keep bringing this back to religion... a man made concept. This is a discussion about god being in our minds, or at least is was meant to be. I don't believe that God and religion have to be linked.

The big, bearded man in the sky, answering prayers and judging how we've lived.... That is NOT my idea of what god would be like

If I was this being and just didn't give a monkeys about what I had created, beyond making sure it should work, then I wouldn't want people to be aware of me. I wouldn't care how they lived their lives or what they believed, but I would give them a base to start from and then leave it up to them.

Even if I believed in god, I don't believe it has spoken to anyone or told anyone how to live their lives. I think that has all come from people looking to control or influence others.

***

You are failing to understand, that all the opinions (same and differing) could well come from one mind. That mind, could be the only thing that exists.

Like I said, I don't think that's the case, but it's a notion which interests me.

Edit: religion doesn't bother me... Most people I know who are religious, just have faith in god - some people may take their religion to extremes but, once again, I blame people for that and not the concept.

If someone wants to believe, cool beans... If it comforts you, then that's marvellous. Just don't preach what I should believe.

Exactly the same goes for atheists. I don't want them preaching at me either.
 RobinsonMJ
Joined: 9/12/2010
Msg: 115
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 10:55:18 AM
I remember a philosophy exam: The question, "What is the point of metaphysics?" is very similar to the kind of debating going on here.

You can be an atheist and still believe in the Transcendent! That is all there is to know. Everything else, like the cult of Human sacrifice that is Christianity, the banal and silly book of Genesis, the fit woman with six arms, and guy in the sky with a big hammer, that's just so much bollocks.
 marcochampo
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 116
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 11:19:02 AM
@121
i understand what you are saying ,, that nothing exists apart from what is in our mind, that we create our own reality as and when we observe it..
the concept can't be proven or disproved as it is only in relation to oneself..
so even if i could disprove your reality, as a solipsism you could create another universe and re write the event ,
as i didn't exist independently..

In my reality , i need proof, so that i can test replicate ,share with others and too confirm the findings...
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 117
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 11:48:52 AM
Once again, the god you're speaking of (and discrediting) isn't the idea of god that I would imagine - if I believed god existed.

You keep bringing this back to religion... a man made concept. This is a discussion about god being in our minds, or at least is was meant to be. I don't believe that God and religion have to be linked.

So where are you getting YOUR 'idea" of "god"/Cosmic Architect from...?
You keep repeating that there is only one, which implies that this is somehow 'cultural', on the basis that if you'd been in India, or somewhere, you'd be speaking of gods in the plural.
Would you have imagined there was "a god", if you'd had no knowledge of one.?
Is there any actual evidence..?

The big, bearded man in the sky, answering prayers and judging how we've lived.... That is NOT my idea of what god would be like

If I was this being and just didn't give a monkeys about what I had created, beyond making sure it should work, then I wouldn't want people to be aware of me. I wouldn't care how they lived their lives or what they believed, but I would give them a base to start from and then leave it up to them.

But that contradicts what you said earlier, about eradicating all evidence, aging the earth etc. which implies that he did care what they thought. You also say that you wouldn't want people to be aware again..?
If you existed, you could MAKE them think whatever you wanted, without them even being aware you'd done that.
You could remove the part of their brain, which enabled them to even consider the idea.

Edit: religion doesn't bother me... Most people I know who are religious, just have faith in god - some people may take their religion to extremes but, once again, I blame people for that and not the concept.

Most people who believe, are blissfully unaware of what's in the bible, and exactly what they are supporting.
I have no objections to many of the philosophies, and the 'fluffy', 'cherry-picking' versions of religions, that most people have.
The reality is a huge multinational corporations, with billions in assets, who preach about helping the poor, whilst abusing children, and covering it up.
The reality is Israel/Palestine, where despite being three 'sects' worshiping the same "god", they still can't agree to share the 'holy sites'.

If someone wants to believe, cool beans... If it comforts you, then that's marvellous. Just don't preach what I should believe.

Exactly the same goes for atheists. I don't want them preaching at me either.

I don't give a flying fook what people believe.
I object to religions because:
1/. It's all not true, and I believe the truth is always best.
2/. Because of what they DO: Anti homosexuality, anti-abortion, anti-stem-cell-research, Israel, Afghanistan, 9/11, 7/7, etc etc.
Look at the views of the "Tea Party" in the USA. They're little better than Al Quaeda. Patriarchal, misogynist nonsense.

I object to religions because of religious wars, like the one in the former Jugoslavia, where "Orthodox" catholic priests, whipped the population into a frenzy, about "muslims defiling sacred ground".

If you're just not seeing these things, or have no objections, I find that odd.
I'm not making anything up.

I object to religions because it's not just a harmless 'comfort', or an esoteric, philosophical debate, about the existence of a "super-being'.
It's a whole bunch of inflexible, non-negotiable 'rules', including death for disobedience, dissent, or deviation.

Read up on the history of Israel, since about 1880, when the idea of "zionism" was first conceived.
And read how that came about, from the beginning of the last century, through 1948, to the present.
Their justification, a belief in "god", and the biblical stories.
They believe that "god" gave them the land, about 2,000 years before, so they bulldozed villages, and slaughtered people, and we, the "christians" helped them.
The "holy land" is the epicenter of belief in god, and all the harm that it does.

 fredforties
Joined: 11/25/2010
Msg: 118
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 12:09:27 PM
at least it is the epicentre of belief in that god... but not any number of other gods...

who is to know which god is real? how on earth do you pick the right one... what is the mechanism?

i am the same as everyone else - i reject all other gods that have ever been invented... every last one..except..

well except which?

help me choose, people. which god should i pick. lay it out for me, which is the best one and why??
 Lusipher
Joined: 9/7/2010
Msg: 119
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 12:09:33 PM
@msg 124

I get my idea of this cosmic architect, from my own musings of other ways everything came into being.

What does it matter whether I speak of one or many? It's just an idea.

If I had never known of the notion of god, then who knows... I suspect I would have had the same thought eventually.

***

I've said in other threads on religion that I would mess with people's heads if I was a world creator... Because I am a bit twisted.

Another type of cosmic architect, could have been the one to kickstart the big bang. Who knows... it's all just toying with the idea of what such an entity might do. I will probably contradict theories on it many times, because there's no substance to them and they're just constantly moving thoughts about an incredibly faint possibility.

Maybe the god did as you suggested and made people think a certain way... Maybe that part of the brain was removed... It's all just conjecture and we'll never get an answer.

You object to the concept and I object to the people who shift responsibility of their actions onto "religion"
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 120
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 3:18:33 PM
Jo Van, I remember getting worked up about this as an adolescent... surely you don't believe quoting stats is going to make a believer disbelieve...
You act as though religion makes people do bad things...
People do bad things anyway...
What's interesting is the intellectual superiority you feel entitled to (pro) claim as an atheist...
As silly as you think religious people are, there are many who find you equally foolish...
They're just not getting so het up about it here....
We tend to leave all that behind as we get into our twenties...
Are you a born-again atheist? Lol...
 Pandora0237
Joined: 11/21/2010
Msg: 121
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 3:28:25 PM
Lusipher your remarks about the sort of God you d be set me thinking about maybe not a twisted deity (alth0ugh I could imagine you having a lot of fun!!!), but rather an indecisive, bumbling one, perhaps more akin to the absent minded professor, would we then have had the 'small splutterings', rather than the 'big bang', and the creator equipped with jump leads, and battery chargers, muttering this will work soon???

Interesting these notions we have of something divine, and quite interesting to turn them on its head???

Although I wouldn t give your day job up just yet!!
 badge73
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 122
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 4:26:27 PM
The amount of irony from most of the posts is quite outstanding, as ever most missed the point of religion being in the brain ... but wonder how many have got off their heads on drink or drugs and believed on the experience?

lets stress again if your kin heard voices in their head would you say it's god?

the question of religion is quite odd as believe Mary was a very young girl ... yet if a bloke approached a girl of that age now, what would happen?
 Lusipher
Joined: 9/7/2010
Msg: 123
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 9:36:31 PM
@msg 128

Bumbling would be putting some seriously positive spin on what type of god I would be.

I'd see it as fun, but wouldn't take it that seriously and would probably get bored and finish off the job in a rush, so I could go do something more interesting.

Some people ask how I can talk about god in that way when I'm not even remotely religious and I don't get the point they're trying to make as, like I said earlier, religion and god aren't the same thing and don't even have to be connected.

@msg 129

No, I wouldn't believe it was god as (if god existed) I don't think it would be speaking to or have any interest in us.

As for the bit about Mary.... well wasn't it nothing out of the ordinary for people to be having sex with people that age, hundreds/thousands of years ago?

It would be seen happen now, because the vast majority of adults wouldn't engage in sex with a minor, as they believe it to be wrong.
 fredforties
Joined: 11/25/2010
Msg: 124
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 5/1/2012 12:19:20 AM
@ charity, whether or not there is a god, what is undeniably true is that for good men to do bad things, you need to have religion.
 dwight_the
Joined: 7/4/2010
Msg: 125
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 5/1/2012 12:44:45 AM
How many on here understand the "science" they quote or even understand that those fairytales does not qualify as "science" in the real meaning of the word ?
Why are they forcing children to learn these things even though It's clear they made it all up ?
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