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 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 76
My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome.Page 4 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
The fruit eaten was of knowledge of good and evil, thus introducing mankind into knowing what was right and wrong. Again at any poitn because of free will either one of them could have said no.
demigod1979 on 6/2/2012 1112 AM

I agree with demigod that the creation story can best be understood as metaphor... my personal opinion.

The issue with eating of the fruit of the tree.. metaphorical or otherwise....

Adam messed up. He rebelled against God. When God called Adam to task, Adam first blames Eve, then blames God for given him the woman... maybe a good point.. but beside the point... The point is that Adam denied his wrong doing and blamed everyone else... and therein is the foundation of much of human neurosis and wrong doing.. failing to take responsibility for our own mistakes and short comings.

But it would have been a very short story if Adam had said, "Ah!...God, I'm sorry..I made a mistake." And God had said, "No problem Adam, I'm cool with that and I'm glad you owned up to it.... now how 'bout getting on with ordering this thing I've created....... and let me show you another creation.. ALE!!!"
 Reveal1K
Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 77
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Posted: 6/3/2012 6:50:31 PM
Any God worthy of the name would not be so insecure about himself that he would have to create beings in his image for the purpose of worshiping him.

In actuality, wouldn't Satan be the hero? After all, if Satan hadn't convinced Eve to eat the apple, we would have never been created, right?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 78
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Posted: 6/3/2012 7:50:59 PM
Any God worthy of the name would not be so insecure about himself that he would have to create beings in his image for the purpose of worshiping him.

In actuality, wouldn't Satan be the hero? After all, if Satan hadn't convinced Eve to eat the apple, we would have never been created, right?


She was supposed to eat it. So was Adam. What would really be interesting would be finding the origin of the story. Was it passed from oral tradition or was it made up on the spot. Way back before they had faux news and messnbc the only way to pass on historical references was through oral tradition. One of the tenants of oral tradition was that great care had to be taken to not alter the story. With translations that is really kind of difficult to know and by the time it was written down we don't know how or if the story was altered.

Now, as to accuracy... There were really not a whole lot of people floating around the world around some unknown time that would represent when Adam and Eve existed. A child growing up with a father (assuming) and no mother in a jungle where they rarely came across other people could conceivably been taught stories of how he came to exist and maybe one night dad took off and picked his son up a wife from some neighbors. The whole story could be a real story of the first kidnapping and sociopaths mind control experiment on a child!
All of the problems with religion start off with Genesis. Get that one right and everything is different. Each of the events depicted are really great points for life and going forward but each point has a bad conclusion.
The chastising for challenging obviously false information was backwards. It should have been rewarded.
The claiming that women were for the purpose of being subservient to man was wrong. The message was obviously that he respected and feared her enough to go against what he was taught.
The question remains, “Who was God talking to” when he said, “US”

Without knowing the origins it can only be taken as metaphorical and what is taken from it just depends on the time in history that interprets it.

Demigod... I just read your post. I like it. From my made up little story above I kind of have a similar view. I had no idea there was a theory in that direction.

I also think there's some merit to Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou's theory that the garden actually represented an existing garden on earth - a man-made garden built by a middle-eastern king to house God (or a temple, perhaps the very temple of Solomon) and that the sin of king Adam was that his ego and pride got the better of him and began to think that he was God (which might explain what God meant when he said Adam had become like one of them).

 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 79
My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome.
Posted: 6/4/2012 6:21:04 AM

And in doing so, all the laws of the prophets are satisfied." For the believer, one is now free from living in ACCORDANCE with the Law, as we now live under God's grace.


Actually.. it would be in accordance with the Law... but not under the domination of it.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 80
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Posted: 6/5/2012 5:14:45 PM

All of the problems with religion start off with Genesis. Get that one right and everything is different. Each of the events depicted are really great points for life and going forward but each point has a bad conclusion.
The chastising for challenging obviously false information was backwards. It should have been rewarded.
The claiming that women were for the purpose of being subservient to man was wrong. The message was obviously that he respected and feared her enough to go against what he was taught.

I think the story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son is probably one of the worst stories in the bible. Think how much better it would have been if Abraham had refused and God had rewarded him for making the moral choice. Abraham should have reasoned that no moral god would give such a horrible command and refused point blank, and God should have then congratulated Abraham for seeing through the bluff. The story, as it stands, makes obedience to God the greatest possible virtue (in other words, blind obedience trumps morality).


The question remains, “Who was God talking to” when he said, “US”

That was also covered by Dr Stavrakopoulou, who is one of those who believe that the ancient Israelites worshipped multiple gods (including God's wife Asherah). Christians have reinterpreted such statements as referring to the trinity, but I think a far better interpretation is that God was speaking of other gods. IMO, the very fact that God says that he is a jealous God is positive proof that the bible is polytheistic (if fake gods were just woods and stone then what would God be jealous of?).
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 81
My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome.
Posted: 6/5/2012 6:12:06 PM
The problem with Genesis is in trying to interpret it as a book of scientific and historical truth. In doing so, even the most devout has to make no few amount of logical leaps of faith or suspension of disbelief.

If one can appreciate the book as one of spiritual truths, many of the question and answer begin to fall into place. Including the cultural context of polytheism from which Israel emerged. Israel's God becomes branded as being superior and above all others.
 purfectmeow
Joined: 4/17/2012
Msg: 82
My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome.
Posted: 6/5/2012 8:39:27 PM
I personally do not believe that God knew/knows everything about human thought and our future actions. I think he had an idea of what would happen if Adam and Eve ate that apple. If he had known the exact outcome wouldnt he have changed the environment to control what he wished to have happened? If Satan is the opposite of God doesnt he have as much control over evil as God does good? I still think even God figured things out about man as time went along, including what freedom of will did actually mean. If the bible is indeed a book of scientific truth, I feel it would offer more concrete evidence for non- believers to consider his existence as more than fantasy. If it is a book of historical truths I do believe so much more of it could have been proven by historical documentation. It is a book of spiritual truths however and it is to be taken as such. Faith is still a powerful thing. I do believe God has faith in man enough to have given us the gift of salvation and forgiveness.
 bhawk01
Joined: 12/24/2011
Msg: 83
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Posted: 6/5/2012 8:48:47 PM
You also fail to see the outright lies in the bible too, about census's we know didnt happen thanks to the records kept at the time, blatant lies added to the bible just so jesus could fulfill prophesies previously made
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 84
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Posted: 6/5/2012 9:47:00 PM

I think the story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son is probably one of the worst stories in the bible. Think how much better it would have been if Abraham had refused and God had rewarded him for making the moral choice. Abraham should have reasoned that no moral god would give such a horrible command and refused point blank, and God should have then congratulated Abraham for seeing through the bluff. The story, as it stands, makes obedience to God the greatest possible virtue (in other words, blind obedience trumps morality).


He did it because of the basic concept of unquestioning faith right. Well, don't eat from the tree or you will die. They did not die. They challenged faith and were punished but still didn't die. So, change that one to “good job, you challenged an obviously false rule (which now covers the knowledge of good and evil) and that’s your job.” That then makes your conclusion of challenging an immoral order correct. How many wars would have look different?

Someone interpreted incorrectly or misunderstood getting sent out into the world as getting kicked out of the parents’ house.

The whole scene is backwards from what should have happened. God lied; the serpent told the truth, the lie challenged and the truth found and then punishment. If it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil someone left out the lesson for good.

Should of, would of, could of….
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 85
My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome.
Posted: 6/6/2012 2:38:38 AM
They disobeyed God... then denied that they did... then even blamed God for it.

They became separated from God... spiritual death.... and physical death.

So rather than enjoy life in communion with God, they were kicked out to find their own way.

I suppose, Aires, that your mom may have said "Don't touch the hot stove." Did you listen, or learn your own way?
 PROTON67
Joined: 4/26/2012
Msg: 86
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Posted: 6/6/2012 7:19:53 AM
Who was God talking to in Genesis when he said US ??? ... We should let the WORD of God explain itself. There is one other place in scripture where He said US, (Job 1) and it is clear He was talking to His created angels. Angels are referred to in scripture as ministering spirits. The US in Genesis was God speaking to his ministering spirits, the angels. There are no other Gods but one. Over 100 verses in scripture tell us there is only one God. Indeed, a God that is not God OF all, is not God AT all. The only verse with 3 in it with reference to deity is I John 5:7, and that verse does not appear in any translations of the Bible before the 12th century. It can be found in the notes of a 12th century theologian who scribbled it into notes along side of I John 5:8 which says, "there are three that bare record on earth, the spirit, the water and the blood". Trinitarians desperate for a verse supporting their trinity doctrine then inserted into I John 5:7 at the same time they modified the original text of Matt 28:19 which said to baptize in Jesus name to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The bottom line is, there is only one God, there is no such thing as a trinity, and baptism was commanded to be done in Jesus name. For AT the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and thous shalt call His name Jesus for He shall save His people from their sins.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 87
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Posted: 6/6/2012 7:54:33 AM

They became separated from God... spiritual death.... and physical death.
So rather than enjoy life in communion with God, they were kicked out to find their own way
I suppose, Aires, that your mom may have said "Don't touch the hot stove." Did you listen, or learn your own way


All the point of view of a child. Who told the original story? If oral tradition was followed as would be required for historical purposes it could only have been either Adam or Eve.

Kicked or sent. Grow up and get a job. Go make your own way in the world. And like a spoiled child... "I don't wannnnnaaaa" would see it as getting kicked out. They also would have lied about it. Like a child getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar… “What jar?” How about, "The serpent made me!"

And yes... My mom told me not to touch the hot stove and also the electrical outlets. But my Evil Dad didn't sit over my shoulder telling me it would be really funny to grab the flame while sticking a fork in the socket because I wouldn’t get hurt or die.

The problem with metaphor is it can mean almost anything. The story may be meant to to have metaphorical purposes and to be used in that sense but it must still have an origin that was physical. It was either made up or was passed on. There are no other options.

I think it is interesting how world view colors the metaphors. I know your world view is a collective with a higher purpose. Mine is more independence and individual achievement. You read separation from the heart of the collective and loss of love. I read independence, responsibility and curiosity.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 88
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Posted: 6/6/2012 4:04:17 PM
There is mounting scholarly evidence that the books of Moses, including Genesis were essentially assembled ... from oral tradition, traditional lore, and in the context of the ancient creation myths general to the now mid-east ... sometime after the Jews returned from exile in Babylon.. about 500-600 BCE. Peter Enns is a leading scholar in this area.

As stated in another post, the Genesis is not necessarily a scientific or historical treatise, but speaks to spiritual truths from the Jewish perspective.

And one comment or story in the Bible ought not to be the basis of doctrine, but rather in the overall context.

Were Adam and Eve actual persons? Stay tuned. Perhaps the truth of the story becomes more real if it is freed from having to be literal. To me.. much of it makes more sense.

>

As for myself, Aires.. I do prefer a more individualistic world view.. a product of my culture perhaps. Having studied the concept, I can understand how individualism is not necessarily superior. At least two thirds of the world continues more or less as a collectivist culture. And civilization emerged from collectivist societies. Generally, when living is harsher, the default is collectivism as people have to depend on each other more. Much about on the net if one cares to explore further.

As you have proven yourself capable... an enlightened person ought to be able to hold several opposing ideas in his/her head without ex/imploding.

N'est pas?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
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Posted: 6/6/2012 6:35:15 PM

As you have proven yourself capable... an enlightened person ought to be able to hold several opposing ideas in his/her head without ex/imploding.

N'est pas?


It is. Oral tradition would make a lot more sense for why it’s so poorly structured. That is one of the supports for the New Testament. The Gospels were written within a time period where some people would have still been alive to have challenged the validity. Creating a church based on the testimony of people that never occurred when there were still witnesses would have been easily challenged and broken apart.. As happened to all those other saviors of that time. The old stuff... maybe someday someone will dig up something... stashed in the Vatican archives.
 purfectmeow
Joined: 4/17/2012
Msg: 90
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Posted: 6/6/2012 7:27:53 PM
The beauty of spirituality is that something will always be discovered some where even if its within ourselves.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 91
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Posted: 6/6/2012 9:15:40 PM
It is. Oral tradition would make a lot more sense for why it’s so poorly structured. That is one of the supports for the New Testament. The Gospels were written within a time period where some people would have still been alive to have challenged the validity. Creating a church based on the testimony of people that never occurred when there were still witnesses would have been easily challenged and broken apart..

I'm not so sure about that. The first of the canonical gospels (Gospel of Mark) was first written some 30 - 40 years after the events supposedly happened. Even modern societies have their myths, formed in far less time than the gospels and still widely popular (e.g., George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, Elvis sightings, Einstein prodigy stories). Furthermore, the murky history of the gospels indicate that there were widely differing views of who Jesus was, told from all points of view. In other words, people DID try to disprove the gospels, often times in favor of their own. From what we can tell, the canonical gospels survived because their backers had the support of Rome, not because they were more credible (and Rome was more interested in using the new religion to hold the empire together, not it's historical truth).

My personal view is that Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the Romans for insurrection (there were many savior figures back then so this isn't unusual). However, for whatever reason some of Jesus' followers began to think that he had been raised again from the dead and began to spread this message, eventually reaching the likes of Paul (note that the Pauline epistles do not contain any of the details of the gospels - only Jesus' death and resurrection). Eventually, educated Greek-speaking Jews decided to compile a story of the life of Jesus, borrowing heavily from other mythic figures (being born a virgin, working miracles, and dying on a hill on a tree/cross are all common themes of the mythic hero archetype). Other writers then used these gospels to create their own gospels, each with their own twist (e.g., Matthew is a very Jewish gospel while Luke is heavily favored towards gentiles), thus forming the gospels that we have today. The proto-orthodox version of Christianity then won out and the rest is history.

There was also some philosophical/theological bias used in deciding which gospels were authentic and which were not. The Gospel of Peter is a good example. It was supposedly written by Peter himself and is very similar to the canonical gospels, except at the end when Jesus is crucified. The gospel says that Jesus was silent throughout, as if he felt no pain. To proto-orthodox Christian leaders this suggested that Jesus was not really human (it seemed to support the idea his body wasn't real - that it was only an illusion). This conflicted with the image of Jesus that they had in mind (Chalcedonian christology) so they rejected the authenticity of the gospel and it went into the dustbin of history. The Gospel of Thomas is another example. The beginning of the gospel indicates that whoever understands the words of the gospel will attain everlasting life. To proto-orthodox leaders this conflicted with their idea that it was through the death and resurrection of Jesus that everlasting life was attained (the Gospel of Thomas seemed to be pushing a gnostic idea - that one can attain salvation through knowledge, not sacrifice). This gospel was also rejected on theological grounds.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
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Posted: 6/6/2012 9:54:32 PM

Even modern societies have their myths, formed in far less time than the gospels and still widely popular (e.g., George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, Elvis sightings, Einstein prodigy stories).


Yeah I get it. There are anecdotal urban legends throughout history. But none of them became the basis of going against the authority of the time and turning against the established religion. The established Churches of the time were not exactly all cool with that. It's not evidence. It's just a place for a point.

And again, once things get into the hands of others and origins are confused, concepts twisted and political issues of the day whatever... That's where the entire thing becomes metaphorical and nearly impossible to separate one thing from another. However, that doesn't discount its existence and that it was a collection of what was claimed to be testimony and not fables and that’s where it’s still at. I have heard several of the complaints that it’s filled with terrible and brutal things. That the narrative is all over the place and as a work of fiction it gets very low marks on compared with the quality of other writings the predate it. And that is also part of the point that it wasn't a sequenced fictionalized story. It wasn’t a happy telling of a great world. The world kind of sucked. It was brutal. Many parts of the world show that it really was brutal. The interpretation that it is the world that should remain forever… um, where did that come from?

http://www.newmediaministries.org/Bible/OralTradition_S.html

This means the books of the NT were written between only 30 to 70 years after Jesus' death. This is important because historians have determined this is not enough time for myths and legends to develop. It means the books of the NT were written either by eyewitnesses or by people like Luke who carefully reported eyewitness testimonies. Furthermore, this was done in the presence of other eyewitnesses who could correct them on the accuracy of their accounts. Second, we must understand the true nature of the oral tradition. This was far from the unreliable telephone game. In fact, as you know, the purpose of the game is to have fun so you have a lot of incentive to distort the message you received and pass that distortion on to the next person.

In the ancient world, however, passing information on by word of mouth was far from a game. Memorization was a major means of education. It had to be. An education that included reading and writing was only available to the wealthy minority. But that doesn't mean those without formal educations were not intelligent and informed. The Jews would memorize whole books of the OT just by listening to it being read to them. They were taught to memorize everything they heard from their teachers. They were taught to memorize it word for word and then check it for accuracy. In a world where few people could be taught to read or write, accurate memorization was important and strictly enforced.


Memory was important. They were far from stupid backwoods ignorant hicks. It isn't evidence. It is a place for a point.

I had always hoped that Penn and Teller would have done a BullShit episode on the miracles of the Bible (except for casting out demons because that is still occurring today and easily shown how that can exist as a belief). The only rules would that they could only use materials available at that time or the nearest equivalency.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
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Posted: 6/7/2012 5:20:10 AM

Yeah I get it. There are anecdotal urban legends throughout history. But none of them became the basis of going against the authority of the time and turning against the established religion. The established Churches of the time were not exactly all cool with that. It's not evidence. It's just a place for a point.

Really? Then explain how the Mormon religion got started. In fact, explain how any new religion after the time of Jesus got established (Carco cults, Islam, Raelians, Scientology, Mormonism...). Such things can easily be disproved, especially in modern times, right?


Memory was important. They were far from stupid backwoods ignorant hicks. It isn't evidence. It is a place for a point.

No it is not. Frankly, I find that the quoted explanation completely unconvincing since it flies in the face of everything we know about the early church (as well as how rumors, hearsay, and religions are established even today). The gospels are not eyewitness accounts - they don't read anything like eyewitness accounts in the ancient world (we have examples of such accounts during that time and the gospels are nothing like them) and they were written in Greek, by educated Greek-speaking Jews, not aramaic-speaking (and for the most part, illiterate) farmers and fishermen from Galilee. Furthermore, if the deeds and saying of Jesus were so widely remembered then how could there have been so many different gospels saying such vastly different things? How could it be a matter of such contention if it was a recent event that everyone remembered? Furthermore, why doesn't the apostle Paul mention any of the things that Jesus taught and did? If you were to tell strangers about Jesus today wouldn't you at least mention some of the things he said? (the idea that Paul knew about them but didn't say anything is proposterous on its face) Paul's silence, as it is called, is powerful testimony that such details weren't known (that is, they didn't exist) during that time.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
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Posted: 6/7/2012 7:49:23 AM

However, that doesn't discount its existence and that it was a collection of what was claimed to be testimony and not fables and that’s where it’s still at.

It's all just a plagiarised re-telling of older stories, with appropriate names inserted and re-played in a new location.
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/green_economics/MythsandReligion.pdf
http://newageofreason.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/the-pagan-roots-of-christianity-2/
http://pocm.info/
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
http://www.answering-islam.org/Pagan/index.html
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
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Posted: 6/7/2012 7:57:57 AM
Interesting,

I know you have lived and studied this. I just gave you the best sounding support I had heard. I am not going to try to take the opposing side. There is no way I could keep up. Not sure how to take your position. I just don't know enough. I lean more towards your position just because I've always had the opinion that the whole thing passed through so many hands and was always used for political purposes.

Oh... however, your point about Mormons, scientology and all the modern ones... they also came from a more tolerant place and were not challenging the current ruling government. So, it’s a bit difficult to compare.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
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Posted: 6/7/2012 4:45:10 PM

Oh... however, your point about Mormons, scientology and all the modern ones... they also came from a more tolerant place and were not challenging the current ruling government. So, it’s a bit difficult to compare.

I used those examples to show how religions get established, that they don't just get killed off because someone can come along and disprove them. Religion is not like science and is not subject to the same kinds of test and procedures - when is that last time that someone told you they came to believe in a religion because of its scientific truth?

The late Alan Dundes said that folklore can sometimes be more important than actual history. What he meant was that the stories that get passed down do so because they resonate with people on a fundamental level. People believe it because they WANT to believe it. It's important for Americans to believe that George Washington cut down that cherry tree and didn't lie about it, since it tells them something about the father of their nation. Many glurge stories get passed on in this way (glurge is a word used to describe stories that start off as fiction but are now considered by many to be true stories). I believe religion fits in this category as well since many people believe in religion because it makes them feel good in some way, fills a void in their life. A pastor never trots out physical evidence of biblical events - he doesn't need to, that's not what people come to church for.
 purfectmeow
Joined: 4/17/2012
Msg: 97
My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome.
Posted: 6/7/2012 5:22:47 PM
^ I hear ya but I dont go to church because I believe in some story. I dont go to church very often because organized religion turns me off. I am a spiritual person because of my personal faith through something I feel within myself. Its a connection to a greater force of energy I like to call God. I would still have that connection without the bible. My personal intuitions are strong through this connection and I have experienced unexplainable (by science) phenomena because of it. Does it fill a void in my life? Its more like it fills a void in my soul.
 bhawk01
Joined: 12/24/2011
Msg: 98
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Posted: 6/7/2012 5:26:14 PM
That feeling inside.....may be gas!
Once again, the feelings of a greater presence have been replicated by stimulating parts of the brain electrically and also through drugs. It also happens with mental health disorders.
So it really is explainable, any other ways you "know" that cant be replicated with science/nature?
 Aries_328
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Posted: 6/7/2012 6:00:35 PM

That feeling inside.....may be gas!
Once again, the feelings of a greater presence have been replicated by stimulating parts of the brain electrically and also through drugs. It also happens with mental health disorders.
So it really is explainable, any other ways you "know" that cant be replicated with science/nature?


That is a bad example. Explaining how something functions doesn't explain what it is for. Tires are for the purpose of rubber. Tires are for cars and they are made of rubber.

Electricity is in a socket but that is not why it is there.

Your brain doesn't exist for you to tie your shoes.

Engines are not cars

So, feelings are for not the purpose of chemicals to exist.
 purfectmeow
Joined: 4/17/2012
Msg: 100
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Posted: 6/8/2012 4:52:03 AM
^ Awe~ ...just y'all let me have a moment. I feel the presence of something greater than Aries posting just to post in response. Its a collective connection I dont expect most people to get. So thank you~ from the gift we have received that we can share, and cyber hugs...
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