| | My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome.Page 5 of 8 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8) |
That is a bad example. Explaining how something functions doesn't explain what it is for. Tires are for the purpose of rubber. Tires are for cars and they are made of rubber.
Electricity is in a socket but that is not why it is there.
Your brain doesn't exist for you to tie your shoes.
Engines are not cars
So, feelings are for not the purpose of chemicals to exist. I think asking things like "what it is for" makes too big an assumption (it assumes that there is some kind of purpose external to the thing being described). Why can't the brain be a self-contained unit? Why can't our feelings be synonymous with chemical and electrical interactions? Oh sure we'd like to think our thoughts and feelings are more than just physical stuff, but IMO that's just human ego (it reminds me of this one philosophy class, when a student said she believed in evolution -- except for human beings). As Daniel Dennett said, the continuity of nature is not going to permit one species to have miracle stuff in their brain. Does the idea that we are ultimately mechanical make you feel less valued? | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/8/2012 5:43:50 AM |
I think asking things like "what it is for" makes too big an assumption (it assumes that there is some kind of purpose external to the thing being described). Why can't the brain be a self-contained unit? Why can't our feelings be synonymous with chemical and electrical interactions? Oh sure we'd like to think our thoughts and feelings are more than just physical stuff, but IMO that's just human ego (it reminds me of this one philosophy class, when a student said she believed in evolution -- except for human beings). As Daniel Dennett said, the continuity of nature is not going to permit one species to have miracle stuff in their brain. Does the idea that we are ultimately mechanical make you feel less valued?
It is too big of an assumption. Each assumption made is only a piece of information. Reality always makes things more complicated. A car is made with an engine. A cars general purpose is transportation. A car can also represent ego. A car can represent technology. a car can represent modernity. Defining a car’s engine doesn't devalue any of those things. Describing the human meat bag as a meat bag does devalue us. We, unlike the car, have conscience. We, unlike the car, feel. Ego is a big part of it. Not getting into the 'importance' of humans over other living things here. Just that life is described by mechanics but that doesn't mean it is just mechanical. Even fire has a purpose. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/8/2012 10:09:41 AM |
It is too big of an assumption. Each assumption made is only a piece of information. Reality always makes things more complicated. A car is made with an engine. A cars general purpose is transportation. A car can also represent ego. A car can represent technology. a car can represent modernity. Defining a car’s engine doesn't devalue any of those things. Describing the human meat bag as a meat bag does devalue us. We, unlike the car, have conscience. We, unlike the car, feel. Ego is a big part of it. Not getting into the 'importance' of humans over other living things here. Just that life is described by mechanics but that doesn't mean it is just mechanical. Even fire has a purpose. Fire may have a purpose, but it's not the one we ascribe to it. That is our purpose.
Cars are not humans, they are machines designed with a purpose in mind. Purpose implies an aim or an intention, so to hold the idea that humans to have 'a purpose', other than the obvious natural one, implies that there is some goal that humans were 'designed' to fulfill. There is no evidence for this, in fact there is much evidence to the contrary considering that we are distantly related to sea squirts.
Sea squirts feed by taking in water through the oral siphon. The water enters the mouth and pharynx, flows through mucus-covered gill slits (also called pharyngeal stigmata) into a water chamber called the atrium, then exits through the atrial siphon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascidiacea | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/8/2012 12:07:16 PM |
Purpose implies an aim or an intention, so to hold the idea that humans to have 'a purpose', other than the obvious natural one, implies that there is some goal that humans were 'designed' to fulfill.
Sorry, but there would be a much stronger argument to make that the purpose of humans is to transform the environment to suit our development and growth. We don't sit on the see floor and suck in what we can. We don't hide in the grass and wait for a sick animal to pass by. We actively engage and modify the world around us and are actively moving in the direction of expanding that outside of our world. That is purpose. It may not be 'the purpose' but you can't say that we are an ant leaving the nest and returning with food for the colony. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/8/2012 4:23:34 PM | It is too big of an assumption. Each assumption made is only a piece of information. Reality always makes things more complicated. A car is made with an engine. A cars general purpose is transportation. A car can also represent ego. A car can represent technology. a car can represent modernity. Defining a car’s engine doesn't devalue any of those things. Describing the human meat bag as a meat bag does devalue us. We, unlike the car, have conscience. We, unlike the car, feel. Ego is a big part of it. Not getting into the 'importance' of humans over other living things here. Just that life is described by mechanics but that doesn't mean it is just mechanical. Even fire has a purpose. I think you misunderstood me when I said "ego". What I meant was that it is human vanity and pride makes us think that we're somehow different from ordinary things. You also mentioned something about consciousness, which Daniel Dennett has written eloquently about. To paraphrase Dennett, what the Theory of Evolution has taught us is that we are a part of nature, like monkeys, like trees, like sea squirts, like any other living organism and that it is vainglorious and foolish to wish ourselves special. We have a soul -- but it's made up of little robots and it's all mechanical at the bottom of it. This isn't to deny the value of human life - to paraphrase Dennett once again, it touches everything and leaves everything the same, except we're just a little bit disillusioned about the nature of it. Frankly, figuring out the way a rose blooms (at the genetic/chemical level or whatnot) doesn't make the flower any less attractive. Likewise, we don't have to pretend that our thoughts and feelings are some magical stuff for us to feel important. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/8/2012 5:13:46 PM |
Purpose implies an aim or an intention, so to hold the idea that humans to have 'a purpose', other than the obvious natural one, implies that there is some goal that humans were 'designed' to fulfill. Sorry, but there would be a much stronger argument to make that the purpose of humans is to transform the environment to suit our development and growth. There's no argument to make in that regard. The circumstances that drove 7 or 8 ape species out of the trees and led to upright walking hominids had no aim or goal in regard to the eventual appearance of homo sapiens. To imagine the activities we engage in today are fulfilment of some 'purpose' is to imagine that the chain of events that led to it was directed with intent. There's no evidence for that at all.
The effects we have on the world are by-products of what we have become, and result from our somewhat accidental capabilities.
We don't sit on the see floor and suck in what we can. We don't hide in the grass and wait for a sick animal to pass by. We actively engage and modify the world around us and are actively moving in the direction of expanding that outside of our world. That is purpose. It may not be 'the purpose' but you can't say that we are an ant leaving the nest and returning with food for the colony. A sea squirt is a mouth and an anus that exploits its environment long enough to reproduce. We share that same basic design and life cycle yet we, unlike them, are 'special' somehow? Someone, or some 'thing', has a 'purpose' in mind for us? Homo sapiens, unique amongst the hominids (and all animals), had a higher 'purpose' built in? pfft.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/purpose http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purpose http://www.answers.com/topic/purpose http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpose http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpose_(disambiguation) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 10:46:07 AM |
Sorry, but there would be a much stronger argument to make that the purpose of humans is to transform the environment to suit our development and growth. There's no argument to make in that regard. The circumstances that drove 7 or 8 ape species out of the trees and led to upright walking hominids had no aim or goal in regard to the eventual appearance of homo sapiens. To imagine the activities we engage in today are fulfillment of some 'purpose' is to imagine that the chain of events that led to it was directed with intent. There's no evidence for that at all.
The effects we have on the world are by-products of what we have become, and result from our somewhat accidental capabilities.
What do you mean there is no argument in that regard? So, I have to look outside and pretend it doesn't exist? I have to look outside and see all of the manmade recreation of the environment to suit our purposes and pretend it means nothing but ... but what? Human behavior is not as random as it appears right. It is predictable. We have rational predictions of what has happened and will happen with societies. That can't happen in total randomness. The basic assumption of natural selection and the argument against unguided evolution is the order from chaos and all of society follows that same line. Natural selection and the complexity of the human brain does not need an intelligent creator to get there right. Society is moving and has always been moving in the direction of controlling the entire planet and most likely pulling into a single world government. It has been self-organizing for centuries. That is more of a sense of purpose then you are willing to grant it. Where is the drive at? I personally don't like the one world government path as I don't trust the people who will be in charge. So, the need of an opposition exists. There are a lot of people that feel that way. The end result will be a more powerful single government that is able to overcome its opposition.
How do you not see purpose in this? I didn't mention religion or theology or anything spiritual. Without any of that do you still not see purpose?
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 1:26:40 PM |
What do you mean there is no argument in that regard? So, I have to look outside and pretend it doesn't exist? I have to look outside and see all of the manmade recreation of the environment to suit our purposes and pretend it means nothing but ... but what? Human behavior is not as random as it appears right. It is predictable. We have rational predictions of what has happened and will happen with societies. That can't happen in total randomness. The basic assumption of natural selection and the argument against unguided evolution is the order from chaos and all of society follows that same line. Natural selection and the complexity of the human brain does not need an intelligent creator to get there right. Society is moving and has always been moving in the direction of controlling the entire planet and most likely pulling into a single world government. It has been self-organizing for centuries. That is more of a sense of purpose then you are willing to grant it. Where is the drive at? I personally don't like the one world government path as I don't trust the people who will be in charge. So, the need of an opposition exists. There are a lot of people that feel that way. The end result will be a more powerful single government that is able to overcome its opposition.
How do you not see purpose in this? I didn't mention religion or theology or anything spiritual. Without any of that do you still not see purpose? I don't think purpose is what you're talking about here; instead you seem to be talking about ability. All living organisms have a purpose (which is almost universally to exist and reproduce). Humans are nothing special in this regard. The only thing different is that we are more capable of modifying our environment. Of course this could all change - the next meteor strike could wipe out humanity in a stroke. | |
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A_Gent
| | Joined: 8/18/2011 Msg: 109 | |
| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 3:31:39 PM | Purpose denotes an intent....and thereby an intelligence in directing the creation of such an advantage.
Compare with an effect.
Is the purpose of a tree falling across a river to give animals a dry crossing.. or is that the effect?
Is the purpose of having long arms to scratch one's ankles without bending over, or is that the effect? Of course long arms also has the effect of reaching a few more pieces of tasty and nutritious fruit than a short armed runt.
And I can still scratch my ankles. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 4:38:50 PM |
I don't think purpose is what you're talking about here; instead you seem to be talking about ability. All living organisms have a purpose (which is almost universally to exist and reproduce). Humans are nothing special in this regard. The only thing different is that we are more capable of modifying our environment. Of course this could all change - the next meteor strike could wipe out humanity in a stroke.
:) You are making my point.
The only thing different is that we are more capable of modifying our environment Different! The conclusion you reach that it is irrelevant is without justification. You are placing a value judgment of 'not valuable' on the different ability to modify the world as we see fit which has been working over thousands of years toward the unification of a worldwide dominance and a definite eye on the universe.
Your conclusion that it is 'only because we can' equals 'non valuable' in the hierarchy of intentions and purpose does not make sense. We “can” therefore we are without purpose?
Or are you trying to say that our natural organization of society and consistent domination of our environment is meaningless and if we would have been sea slugs with legs the same thing would have happened? There is no evidence to support a lack of purpose. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 5:00:35 PM |
Purpose denotes an intent....and thereby an intelligence in directing the creation of such an advantage.
Compare with an effect.
Is the purpose of a tree falling across a river to give animals a dry crossing.. or is that the effect?
Is the purpose of having long arms to scratch one's ankles without bending over, or is that the effect? Of course long arms also has the effect of reaching a few more pieces of tasty and nutritious fruit than a short armed runt.
And I can still scratch my ankles. Nature operates under its own laws. The purpose of living organisms is to survive, and no direct observable "intelligence" is required to do this. A virus is the perfect example since all it is is just a bit of genetic material in a protein coat, yet it fulfills its purpose without any sort of intelligence directing it what to do.
I can understand where you're coming from since in the human world we are the instigators of things. However, to extend this to nature itself is, IMO, anthropomorphism. One of the reason why Dawkins and others call the Theory of Evolution a "consciousness-raiser" is that it opens our eyes to a new way of understanding things, to realize that not everything is created the human way. Evolution teaches us that living organisms, including complex ones that have intelligence and show purpose and intent, can be created without some supermind overseeing it, that a top-down approach isn't the only way things are created. I see that you're still thinking the old way though. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 5:04:14 PM |
Different! The conclusion you reach that it is irrelevant is without justification. You are placing a value judgment of 'not valuable' on the different ability to modify the world as we see fit which has been working over thousands of years toward the unification of a worldwide dominance and a definite eye on the universe.
Your conclusion that it is 'only because we can' equals 'non valuable' in the hierarchy of intentions and purpose does not make sense. We “can” therefore we are without purpose?
Or are you trying to say that our natural organization of society and consistent domination of our environment is meaningless and if we would have been sea slugs with legs the same thing would have happened? There is no evidence to support a lack of purpose. I'm saying that our purposes are essentially no different from the sea squirt: it is to survive and reproduce. Even the goal of space travel and colonizing space and/or other planets comes from our desire to survive, since we know that earth won't last forever and has limited resources to sustain our growing population. As one scientist said, we should aim to be a two-planet species. | |
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A_Gent
| | Joined: 8/18/2011 Msg: 113 | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 6:02:46 PM |
I'm saying that our purposes are essentially no different from the sea squirt: it is to survive and reproduce
That is absolutely not true. Show me the law of the sea squirt. Your words again... "since we know..." We... and Know... differences again.
The only reason for the 'man is no more unique in the universe than the sea squint' is because of an attempt to create a morality from the natural world. If we are no more 'special' than a dust mite and we only exist to breed there is nothing sacred, unique, or special about humans. So, if we need to cull the heard. It's for the best. It is an attempt to remove the survival part of humans. Just bugs to be exterminated when usefulness is outlived.
Sorry, that is the end result I see in your philosophy. Doesn't even take a belief in God. How do you kill a race? You remove their humanity. Easiest way to do that is to remove their uniqueness and class them as one. Next, call them bad, backwards or against the 'right way' of thinking. Demonize them. Next is open season until the eventual cleansing.
That is why one philosophy about life should never fully win. Secular society does not mean extermination. That doesn’t mean we should be stupid enough to think it can’t happen. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 6:48:45 PM |
That is absolutely not true. Show me the law of the sea squirt. Your words again... "since we know..." We... and Know... differences again.
The only reason for the 'man is no more unique in the universe than the sea squint' is because of an attempt to create a morality from the natural world. If we are no more 'special' than a dust mite and we only exist to breed there is nothing sacred, unique, or special about humans. So, if we need to cull the heard. It's for the best. It is an attempt to remove the survival part of humans. Just bugs to be exterminated when usefulness is outlived. I never said human societies aren't unique. We've evolved to do thing certain ways, just like other living organisms. Reminds me of the saying: you are unique... just like everybody else! :p The only point I want to make is that we are products of nature, with everything that it implies. You seem to make out humanity like it's an exceptional species, apart from everything else. I'm saying this is incorrect.
Our species, our culture, our way of living and surviving is important to us, but only to us. We should be proud of who we are and should try to survive and thrive as best we can (this is the point of our existence afterall - I'm not sure why you're talking about extermination) but should never assume an importance beyond ourselves. From the perspective of the planet, we are just the latest species to rule the earth, just like the dinosaurs before us. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 7:19:43 PM |
Our species, our culture, our way of living and surviving is important to us, but only to us.
:) It's all in the fundamentals isn't it. It is only important to us because... We are the only species capable. Take the ultimate in your world view to its ridiculous limit and where do you get. You wonder why I bring up extermination but you forgot that it is a significant reason why you dislike religion. It is our history. It is a fact of being human. Religion and governance has probably always been the most apt for comparative relationship rather than science and religion. Science can be used in politics just as easily as religion was and it is highly likely it will be used for even greater destruction then has ever been known. Maybe then you would realize, all this time, it wasn't man’s purpose or God you questioned but simply politics and religion.
We are a virus. Quite simply at our base level we are a virus. We have infected this planet and our consuming its resources beyond its capabilities. In your world view this is for no other end result then to consume our resources until it can no longer sustain and then die off as the host dies. In mine, we have yet to achieve, and understand the brass ring of our purpose which maybe that it is the same as Gods purpose. The tree of life wasn't forbidden. Knowledge of right and wrong was a test. Knowledge of everything is our job. How would you use knowledge of the universe? Would you play God and stop all the bad things from happening to your creations? | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 7:42:27 PM |
Or are you trying to say that our natural organization of society and consistent domination of our environment is meaningless and if we would have been sea slugs with legs the same thing would have happened? (my emphasis)
Who can say? It might be more apposite to ask why homo sapiens rather than say... homo australopithecus sediba. You seem to be suggesting there was, and is, something 'special' (a 'purpose) that was built in to homo sapiens as opposed to all other hominids, and indeed all other animal species. One wonders at what point did this 'special purpose' get inserted into homo sapiens? Was it in the progenitor we share with the other hominids and we got it (whatever 'it' is) by accident? Or it was intended all along that of the various descendants of the proto-hominid that only sapiens would have 'purpose'?
Was it the 'purpose' of homo erectus to evolve, over several hundred thousand years, from an ape species that came down out of the trees and then die out? Did the climate change that drove 7 or 8 different ape species out of the trees and out onto the plains have the 'purpose' of producing, somewhat miraculously, only homo sapiens? The other hominid species being some kind of camouflage perhaps?
What evidence do you have that homo sapiens even have, or had, any special 'purpose' other than the obvious biological one we share with all other animal species?
Within their unique capabilities they too search for food, they find mates, they feather their nests, they reproduce, and die. Apart from the (evolved) sophisticated overlay, what do we do that differs significantly from that basic biological trajectory?
There is no evidence to support a lack of purpose. You have it backwards. Part of the difficulty in proving a negative is that there nothing to refute. It's for those making the claim to provide sufficient warrant to support it. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/9/2012 11:16:27 PM |
There is no evidence to support a lack of purpose.
You have it backwards. Part of the difficulty in proving a negative is that there nothing to refute. It's for those making the claim to provide sufficient warrant to support it.
You fall to your default argument again There is nothing there so nothing needs to be explained. And again, going outside and looking at the streets, cities, governments, technology, and pretty much everything humans have created isn't enough evidence for you. Doesn't need explaining. The sea slugs just didn't have legs. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/10/2012 1:29:44 AM |
There is no evidence to support a lack of purpose. You have it backwards. Part of the difficulty in proving a negative is that there nothing to refute. It's for those making the claim to provide sufficient warrant to support it. You fall to your default argument again There is nothing there so nothing needs to be explained. I didn't invent it, and it isn't my argument. It's the reality you're up against if you are claiming homo sapiens have a 'purpose' above and beyond the obvious biological one.
Besides which, I have actually pointed out numerous factors which either contradict or are serious obstacles to any proposed theory that homo sapiens have some so-far-unspecified 'purpose' - beyond the obvious individual biological one.
And again, going outside and looking at the streets, cities, governments, technology, and pretty much everything humans have created isn't enough evidence for you. Doesn't need explaining. The sea slugs just didn't have legs. Streets are evidence for streets, and they additionally support the concepts of wheeled vehicles and transport efficiencies, etc etc. They also provide incidental support and evidence for such things as the practicality of concrete, macadam, tar etc used as road surfacing materials and so on and so on.
"Streets" (and cities, governments, etc etc) provide no evidence for homo sapiens having a 'purpose' for the same reason a sunset, or the shape of a banana, isn't 'evidence' of a creator deity. It's because there is no connection between the two things that someone is trying, often just by repetition and/or relying on the credulity of the audience, to link.
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A_Gent
| | Joined: 8/18/2011 Msg: 120 | |
| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/10/2012 3:02:51 AM | And therein is the difference in world views... the concepts that one argues from rather than about.
The religious person takes it as a matter of faith and sees intelligent reason behind most things. Enthalpy.
The a-religious takes it as a matter of faith that events unfold largely by accident. Entropy.
Perhaps the secular humanist bridges the two by taking the random accident of humans emerging and forming societies that are capable of then creating a purpose for themselves and ordering the cosmos accordingly. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/10/2012 3:54:37 AM |
And therein is the difference in world views... the concepts that one argues from rather than about.
The religious person takes it as a matter of faith and sees intelligent reason behind most things. Enthalpy.
The a-religious takes it as a matter of faith that events unfold largely by accident. Entropy.
Perhaps the secular humanist bridges the two by taking the random accident of humans emerging and forming societies that are capable of then creating a purpose for themselves and ordering the cosmos accordingly.
We do not take it that things happened by "accident" because "accident" is a human perception/concept. Things simply happened the way they did. For an accident to occur there has to be conscious input. Why do people think there is "order" in the universe. Yet again order is merely a human concept. Even by human views the universe is certainly not "ordered", while there is some uniformity to it this is entirely due to the laws of physics as we know them. If you were born into a country where there was no religion whatsoever but was based purely on a scientific reasoning do you think you would be religious? Now to put it simply, Can you see anything that actually directly suggests a divine creator? If there is please tell me what. | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/10/2012 4:06:52 AM | No, I cannot because spiritual matters cannot be documented by science. We all know this too well. I believe there is a God by human choice. Heres a question for you~ Can science be a religion? Science does have some of religions virtues, except for faith.
Do you have faith in science? | |
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| My Theological Questions. Contemplation Welcome. Posted: 6/10/2012 4:14:30 AM | Science cannot be a religion, science is a universally accepted method of experimentation and observation. Science is trying to prove itself wrong at every turn. Religion however tries to prove itself right at every turn.
I do not have "faith" in anything subjective. Science relies on the objective world and i will believe something if evidence is provided, that is not faith, it is reason. | |
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