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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 1:07:50 PM |
Sure, it's much simpler to be happy if you can convince yourself that everything is good because you have a comfortable life. I guess that' the point about short-term vs.long-term thinkers. But that doesn't change the fact that we are seeing events that are unprecedented and used to be thought of as being catastrophic, until it happened, then all of a sudden, we learn to tune it out because making any changes are consdered to affect us economically. But it's pretty much same with people's health too. Go to any major public event today, people don't look like they did even 30 years ago anymore.
Agreed. My post that you referred to was a generality and a general observation. It will still take a collective majority within the powers that be to legislate, eradicate, and instigate the changes that will be necessary to manage said events. There are also people who are forward thinkers who are making a collective difference, but they often lack the funds to begin cost-based initiatives.
I'm still mulling things around in my mind about what changes would work with the inevitable changes that lie ahead. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 2:55:00 PM | nondating,
FYI, as you ponder, I began this thread because it appears we are rapidly depleting and/or degrading out natural resources on earth while the population is growing dramatically, which appears to be a suicide, unsustainable collision course ...so I asked how that could be stopped, slowed down, etc. and what a non-suicidal, sustainable economy, political system, etc. would look like.,,,,,,,not a perfect world in the sense of utopian, but one that is sustainable.
Trying to keep this on track and see what people's ideas are........:-) | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 5:10:06 PM | Balsamica, yes, I read your OP prior to posting and that's where my thoughts have been.
My thought process(es) has (have) been-
What society or segment of society has or is living as closely to this as possible?
I first thought of Brazil as far as its people being non-racist, fairly ideal climate for sustainable foods, etc....
then kept paring it down sts and I think that the answer, for me anyway, is for each able individual to be self-sustaining- yet to live a bit more collectively- either with generational or extended family or similar to how the Amish live.
Then I thought that they may be the best example.
They don't take from the earth, they give to it. I've lived on a ranch for 10 years and lived in this way for the most part, so I can share that it can be done, just as it once was done.
They raise the bulk of their own food ( I googled it and they now eat out a bit and buy some store-bought food, etc.), they aren't reliant on energy, they are basically a-political and operate as a community and apply their cohesive rules and efforts to uphold these rules; economically they are also self-sustaining- creating their own incomes by what they derive from their farms and ranches as well as using skilled trades and artisan crafts, and selling the overage of the food they produce, etc.; in regard to medicine- they have knowledgable people within the community and they go to traditional dr's as well- they use Church Aid for catastrophic health needs and the community pitches in and donates money- some hospitals in the US have created outreach assistance.
In this way, the natural resources are not depleted, but perhaps enriched and sustained; their 'political system' functions by everyone basically being unified in their society's rules or they are pushed out of the community; economic system- their own sustainable economy that is based on being self-employed yet contributing to the surrounding community- there is no social security or social services- just what they provide among themselves and thru the collective funds they share for this purpose; health is better because they are active in an agrarian community, eat better and have available health care as mentioned above; Amish children born out of wedlock are rare (wiki/google)-- the one thing that isn't working in this dynamic is that they average 7 children per family--yet if they are self-sustaining- it helps to offset this, and more hands can yield more food, etc. That's the one area within this community that isn't a positive sts in regard to your question.
For the purposes of this discussion, I'd like to leave out the religious connection with this group and just use this group as a whole. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 5:44:55 PM | notdating,forums only,
Yeah, they came to mind for me, too. Absolutely, sustaining and non-suicidal with the exception of the number of children they have. I wonder if they need the all hands on deck, though?
I like the Amish, never met any but I've always thought they kind of had the right idea. There is probably a very good model society there.
Question for you: what would their society be like with the full complement of technology........cell phones, computers, social media, etc. ? Would it be compatible? | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 6:36:13 PM | It's interesting that you should mention that- I almost edited my post to include that. Their society is based on set standards sts, so the society as a whole wouldn't change. It would simply benefit from the positive technology IMO.
I am one who doesn't watch tv- just historical documentaries here and there and an occasional movie- I choose to filter out negative media. I feel that perhaps they would do this as well.
I was also going to add earlier that we need to stop polluting the waters ( achieved thru my previous post) and use them for water ( desalination) and to propagate food (vegetation).
EDIT: In their own way the Amish benefit from technology now. They don't use computers but they have outsiders build web sites to advertise their artisan goods that they sell. They're probably making money hand over fist in this manner.
How many lines of furniture, for example, are still hand made with good quality lumber?
I googled Lancaster Amish and they have bed and breakfasts and many other things that they're having advertised on that site. People want to see and experience their way of life, the bygone era, and enjoy the food and hand-crafted items that they have for sale. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 6:46:31 PM | http://amishamerica.com/do-the-amish-use-computers-and-the-internet/
The Amish have guarded business use of computers, more personal use of cell phones which is a worry for the elders.
I don't watch TV much, either, just PBS.
Stopping pollution is an easy one, but it seems to just get worse...... the Gulf spill was just horrendous, millions of barrels of oil hemorrhaging under the ocean......fracture drilling ruining aquifers, the new pipeline being pushed on us......even by political candidates, just for a few people to make some money at a potentially horrendous cost to our water.......it just keeps getting worse, not better! | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 7:02:35 PM | Ahhh- the one thing I didn't google ( use of technology by the Amish). Those darn kids ;)
It's inevitable that some things will at least attempt to change with all of the outside influences that they are now having- i.e., offering a bed and breakfast for (additional) income brings in outsiders whose kids have cell phones, etc.
I just glanced at an article today- online- that frac drilling may stop. The gulf spill was indeed horrendous. It's frustrating that most people simple adopt a way of life- one in which they just gas up their SUV's, etc and give no thought to the fact that a lot oil is transported and has to travel the waters, etc. If we didn't use this fossil fuel- problem solved. I can dream.
Having a mellow evening sitting here in a rainstorm with the power out and had to add this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCX3ZNDZAwY
John Lennon's " Imagine" | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 8:16:32 PM |
Ever been to a Grateful Dead concert in Michigan or upper New York State?
It's gotta be close to it
Aren't you to young to know that? ;) | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 8:38:10 PM |
The gulf spill was indeed horrendous. It's frustrating that most people simple adopt a way of life- one in which they just gas up their SUV's, etc and give no thought to the fact that a lot oil is transported and has to travel the waters, etc. If we didn't use this fossil fuel- problem solved. I can dream.
Indeed, it's heartbreaking....I grew up on the Gulf, and while we were spared the BP spill mostly (though you never know with all the pesky Corexit they dumped to cover it up), shrimping season was a non-starter in many parts, and there are dead zones (redtide) in large parts now along the Mississippi Delta with all of the fertilizers washing down river. Bird, Dolphins, Turtles, Tuna, Oysters, very little is spared with what's left coming out with lesions too sick to eat....and even if it looks okay, I'd think twice. Currently, the only test they do on the food out of the Gulf is a smell test.
After Fukushima, all the nuclear plants were shut down, and our plant in San Onofre has been shut down for the summer, hopefully a dry run to measure requirement and a move to permanently decommission it....which would bring sigh of relief from the 7.5 million people that live in 50 miles radius. Our cities are putting up solar panels in public parking areas, and the military has decided to convert to solar, that's one defense spending I can really get behind which should have the effect of driving down costs.
Even in Texas, there's a push to move to wind, but of course they're also opening up a huge nat gas field down in Eagle Ford, lets hope there are fracking regulations before they start pumping poison into the ground. Of course, that's not the best idea considering the drought they are suffering regularly now, where nearly all my friends are begging for rain every summer. Not a good time to waste water.
I forgot which Scandinavian country it was, Sweden maybe that's producing nearly all their power by wind, and they are selling it to their neighbors...their biggest problem is that it's too cheap. Imagine that.
Even Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates is putting up solar infrastructure to move themselves away from domestic fossil fuel use...they must know something we refuse to know.
I heard Germany has passed a milestone of deriving half their power from solar this week. Chinese solar companies were putting our manufacturers out of business, but a big tarriff was slapped on them last month....more good news.
We all should do our own part to convert to, and talk up the benefits of renewable energy, especially the cost factor. If we can get over the hump of initial installation. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/6/2012 11:24:40 PM | ""Indeed, it's heartbreaking....I grew up on the Gulf, and while we were spared the BP spill mostly (though you never know with all the pesky Corexit they dumped to cover it up), shrimping season was a non-starter in many parts, and there are dead zones (redtide) in large parts now along the Mississippi Delta with all of the fertilizers washing down river. Bird, Dolphins, Turtles, Tuna, Oysters, very little is spared with what's left coming out with lesions too sick to eat....and even if it looks okay, I'd think twice. Currently, the only test they do on the food out of the Gulf is a smell test. ""
There was a story about all the deformed eyeless critters being caught in the Gulf now.......inedible.......from of all sources, Al Jazeera. It only got picked up on the US news after a foreign country broke the story.........shameless. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 8:42:04 AM |
After Fukushima, all the nuclear plants were shut down, and our plant in San Onofre has been shut down for the summer, hopefully a dry run to measure requirement and a move to permanently decommission it....which would bring sigh of relief from the 7.5 million people that live in 50 miles radius. Our cities are putting up solar panels in public parking areas, and the military has decided to convert to solar, that's one defense spending I can really get behind which should have the effect of driving down costs.
Here's whats going on in San Onofre (unfortunately). Brilliant to place a reactor along a fault line, the Cristianitos, albeit an 'inactive' one. How can a tectonic plate be inactive ?(!) :
"The plant's two reactors (Units 2 and 3) have been shut down since January 2012 due to premature wear found on tubes in steam generators, which apparently contributed to the accidental release of a small amount of radioactive steam."
source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Onofre_Nuclear_Generating_Station
I, for one, have never understood why anyone would want to place a reactor anywhere. It will eventually have wear and tear and will likely leak.
Clean, green power, like solar and wind, are the key IMO.
I lived in a rural area last year and moved closer to the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex ( yes, I'm in Texas thinkinginca).
I was on a committee in the wee town I was living near that ran exhaustive research on the wind turbines when the representatives came thru the area a few years ago to appeal to the rural residents to lease land to them for wind turbine placement and use.
I went to Austin to research and talk to legislators about the fact that there are NO regulations regarding wind turbines. Only the electrical wires that lead from the transmission area that receives the wind powered power (sts) is legislated- since it's owned by the electric company or co-op. I would venture to say that I doubt that there is any legislation that governs the core issues for nuclear power as well.
I could go on about the atrocities of how the wind turbine companies ( for lack of a better word) are operating.
Just a personal note that I think that the turbines do not need to be as large as they are, or placed as high as they are, etc. to detract form the landscape. I know people who have small, private windmills/ turbines and they get all of the power they need from them. They, too, can sell the excess power to the electric company.
Just another example of self-supporting. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 8:50:07 AM |
Even in Texas, there's a push to move to wind, but of course they're also opening up a huge nat gas field down in Eagle Ford, lets hope there are fracking regulations before they start pumping poison into the ground. Of course, that's not the best idea considering the drought they are suffering regularly now, where nearly all my friends are begging for rain every summer. Not a good time to waste water.
As I stated, I'm in Texas. It's never a good time to waste water. They're using tremendous amounts for drilling and exploration- another good reason to stop using fossil fuels.
I owned a ranch and water was and is a highly respected commodity. It gets quite interesting in drought years.
The drilling areas take water from the nearest source they can find, which may affect the water tables in those areas. The drilling definitely affects the groundwater where they drill- tons of saltwater, water, M.U.D. and chemicals go into the project. They are supposed to lease a wastewater disposal site to dump it in ( which just goes into the areas groundwater system), but a lot of it spills over onto the project property. It's a mess on a good day.
I wish they didn't have to explore the Eagle Ford Shale- wish there wasn't a demand for energy in O & G form.
Your comment about the Saudis knowing something- they know it's a finite resource.... | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 8:51:35 AM | addendum: With all of the new and existing energy demands we have here in the States, we should be going solar with it IMO.
BTW, people in Texas- large consortiums and individuals, have been buying up all of the land that they can and drilling deep water wells on them to have a good water source when the water wells and city systems etc start going dry or having non-potable water due to so much pollution, etc.
They've drilled the wells so that they can be grandfathered in- a lot of new construction does not allow drilling a well- most often in more edge-of-town locations. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 9:38:49 AM | Getting back to the Amish and technology, just want to share a note from a friend.
""It does seem that way and also as if people can not live with out them. I watched a man push his son away when he ran up to him all excited to see him at a soccer field. The Dad was on his cell phone and did not want to be disturbed. The kid was running toward him yelling Dad Dad and he put his hand up to stop him and turned away. It made me so sad. When I walk my Dog at night I don't answer my phone, I try to enjoy the ocean and her and talk to her. I think all that is gone. We watched a couple last night at the same table talking on seperate phones. Here we were at a beautiful place dining and they were having seperate conversations with people. Very sad. Oh well. This is progress! ""
Progress, indeed.
I doubt very much the Amish are going to let that kind of thing creep into their relationships and good for them. People make the case for judicious and prudent use of these things, and I will buy that because I know I have to not get caught up in it.......but at the same time there is all this addictive behavior. I know a semi-retired guy who plays Mafia Wars ALL DAY LONG. People, the world around him, way out of focus, stopped caring, not involved........just being plugged in, online, role-playing. Like a kid "on" video games.........addicted. And I am sure there are millions and millions of people like that.... ostriches with their heads in the sand.
I just don't think in the long run that these are going to create the kinds of skills and mentalities and strategies for long-term survival. Too many people are just plain "checking out" of the real world and living in some kind of bubble-like virtual world.........like the Brave New World of Huxley......
I just don't see any technological "fix" for the problems we face ... no supercomputer with algorithms or any of that bullshit.........an Amish-like lifestyle based on agrarian, decentralized communities that value a disciplined life and simplicity seems to me more on target. It might roll back the clock or seem to, but that way of life seems to have worked for thousands, millions of years sustainably.......the industrial revolution changed that and that's where the problems began.
I don't think very many people would return to that willingly....I do think there will be a major crash and they will return to it, willed-he, nilled-he. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 9:59:25 AM | The real reason that the Gulf seafood industry remains viable is due to political detoxification of the absorbed pollution in fish. Just change the allowable limits, limit to a smell test, and fudge the tolerance levels. Change the science to suit the industry and remove liability from the oil spillers. Human and sea health be damned.
http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/info:doi%2F10.1289%2Fehp.1103695
Likewise, the only way for the fracking industry to exist is to remove liability from them for egregious poisoning of surface and groundwaters. Even if the Obama Admin proposal moves forward to disclose fracking chemicals used on public and native lands, people living in fracked areas dominated by private lands and leases will be unknowingly exposed to hazardous chemicals with little recourse in the courts against highly paid fracking industry lawyers and lobbyists.
http://www.alternet.org/fracking/155171/alec_and_exxonmobil_push_loopholes_in_fracking_chemical_disclosure_rules
And while we fiddle as the earth burns, we are likely fast approaching a tipping point of no return, in geologic time at least.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/06/07-3
to buy the report..
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v486/n7401/full/nature11018.html | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 11:08:25 AM | Speaking of water, the most precious commodity, I read not too long back that collecting rainwater is illegal in some states...now don't that blow your mind?
http://www.naturalnews.com/029286_rainwater_collection_water.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/us/29rain.html
And most amazing, it was actually invoked by some cities against the residents and businessess that tried. Colorado changed their state laws to allow it, but it makes you wonder what the intentions of the lawmakers were. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 11:32:40 AM |
Speaking of water, the most precious commodity, I read not too long back that collecting rainwater is illegal in some states...now don't that blow your mind?
Yes, it does blow my mind. Just when I thought I had heard it all. When legislation impacts what a person on their own land, when it isn't illegal ( and capturing rainwater shouldn't be,,,by far),,, it's going too far.
Again, self-sustainability is it. Rainwater capture and storage is simply part of that. If you want to get really technical, and, of course we do on here at times ;)
(I'm a licensed realtor) and generalyl speaking, owning- or even renting- gives one the right to the air rights above the land or the building; therefore, I can capture the rainwater above my land and the buildings on it. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 11:40:36 AM |
I just don't think in the long run that these are going to create the kinds of skills and mentalities and strategies for long-term survival. Too many people are just plain "checking out" of the real world and living in some kind of bubble-like virtual world.........
That's the understatement of the decade. My niece is 23, very intelligent and productive ( NICU nurse working on her N.P). She is my best known example of being raised in a virtual world. She doesn't do the things you mentioned, but technology is very prevalent in her life.
When you take man out of an agrarian society, it can't help but have a conditioned response sts. He no longer needs or uses the skills he did on the farm for survival, so the skills erode and the and subsequent generations have those responsibilities and skills filtered out of the gene pool and most will not only have no use for them, they won't even have the thought of it. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 11:56:00 AM | | notdating, since you are a realtor, a quick question, if you don't mind What is the actual rate of property taxes in Texas? | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 7:06:18 PM | thinking, the property taxes vary per county. It also depends on if you live in the city limits or not.
On average, I'd say they're about 2.5 per 100 $ of valuation.
I was in Montague County prior to my move, outside of the city limits and I was paying about 1.5 per 100 of value; I'm now in Collin County and I'm paying about 2.6 per 100.
Here's my tax rates: Its' 2.6113:
CCL CELINA CITY 0.645000000
GCN COLLIN COUNTY 0.240000000
JCN COLLIN CO COMMUNITY COLLEGE 0.086300000
SCL CELINA ISD 1.640000000 | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 7:33:12 PM |
Again, self-sustainability is it. Rainwater capture and storage is simply part of that
Which is why they would have outlawed it.
;)
They dont want you doing for yourself, free, what they can do for you; with your cash going in their pockets.
Scary that it was actually outlawed, unbelievable. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 8:08:50 PM |
They dont want you doing for yourself, free, what they can do for you; with your cash going in their pockets.
Scary that it was actually outlawed, unbelievable. Unfortunately, that was silently conveyed when I wrote that statement. I'm not sure if they have outlawed it or have proposed to outlaw it. I'm sure the council meetings there have been interesting.
People in general seem to accept whatever happens- in regard to pre-and post-legislation. Appeal it and argue it intelligently if it's an important issue. I know for a fact that noone is going to tell me what to do on my land as long as it's nothing that would endanger etc anyone else. Capturing rainwater has been done since man came along and is still prevalent in arid areas in the US and in other countries as well. A lot of people used to have cisterns, basically a rainwater catch system that ran into a waterproof contained receptacle that was underground and had the rainwater (filtered) into it. I googled it and they sell cisterns online now. | |
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| What would a perfect world look like?
Posted: 6/7/2012 8:15:42 PM | I believe it was a law on the books, probably had something to do with dissuading some people to settle in the area, which was probably something you had to do if you didn't have access to rivers or streams.
The part that's hard to believe is that it was still on the books, but more important, that local governments tried to force the issue on some businesses. In the case I heard, there were businessiness in the Denver area that tried to put it up to minimize their use of municipal water.
Colorado finally got around to ridding the laws after they tried to enforce it and received public backlash.
More likely, they probably tried to fine the businesses....revenue enhancement using any means they can. | |
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