| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 7:33:06 AM |
from scratch, a synthetic human being....will it "start"?...have self-awareness, etc. My guess is no. because it would be missing "something"...but that's only a guess
My guess is yes. It will have self-awareness, or at least it will *think* that it has self-awareness. And you won't be able to prove it doesn't. Which, when you get right down to it, is the same thing that is true of you and me.
here's a question... Do you believe that gorillas have souls? How about dogs? Fish? Earthworms? Bacteria? Viruses? For the aura-afficionados, and this is a serious question ... do other primates have auras, or just humans? | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 7:34:52 AM | Hey Eddie1979,
...eventually the gears start turning a, b keep coming back and ruining the party.
I know what you mean. "a" especially has been real trouble ever since I was introduced to the notion that if God, that is, the all-powerful, etc. God of muslims, jews, christians, exists, then we have no free will. No free will! So how can we be judged for anything we do? Nobody in history that I am aware of has been able to answer this particular riddle ...to my satisfaction anyways....that is, logically. The smart ones, IMO, end up saying that such things are simply beyond our comprehension to understand....taking us back to "c"
 | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 7:41:48 AM |
My guess is yes.
I think we'll both be guessing for a while.... | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 8:49:21 AM |
here's a question... Do you believe that gorillas have souls? How about dogs? Fish? Earthworms? Bacteria? Viruses? For the aura-afficionados, and this is a serious question ... do other primates have auras, or just humans?
Yep..I belive all things have Spirits. Even trees. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 9:13:51 AM | | i think a person's "soul" is their mind | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 6:08:22 PM |
if God, that is, the all-powerful, etc. God of muslims, jews, christians, exists, then we have no free will.
The existance of God does not preclude the existance of free will. It is a fact, in fact, that theologians from all those religions have determined that free will does exist.
Not sure about the auras... never tried looking at an animal's aura... I'm sure they have them though. Trees have auras, I know that, which means yes animals would too.
I also don't understand your concepts of energy, unfortunately for your theory energy is a measureable thing.
Energy is the common term used when talking about such matters. Sorry I wasn't clear but I'll clarify now.
There are different types of energy. Kinetic and Potential energy, what can be measured by physical instruments, is known as 'physical energy'. The energy that builds the framework of the Aura is one of two types of 'subtle energy', known as Auric energy. It's also called by some Solid Energy. The other type of subtle energy is known as Chi, Prana or Liquid Energy. There are many more names for both but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
I can go more indepth into the details of subtle energy but I don't feel like it right now. If you want I will post later. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 6:48:51 PM | Well, we have cloned many things, religion and politics are the only things keeping us from cloning a human. I personally believe it will work, though I am not so sure about the ethics of the situation, hence the stalling.
If you are referring to a more basic building of a human out of molecules.... the trick there is simply forming the molecules without biological means. Biology is a very efficient chemist and can break down and put together molecules faster than any human made machine. As a result it is VERY difficult for us to just assemble a human out of the component parts.
As for knowing how sperm + egg = baby... honestly, there is practically no debate on the subject, it is an observable series of chemical reactions. Now I'm not saying that there is nothing else to it but you act as if the whole process is a complete mystery to all mankind and it frankly is not.
There may well be a soul or spirit but I seriously doubt that they are a required component to make a meat robot. If they do exist however I would be willing to believe that they are required to make that meat robot into an actual human. That would raise the question though, what grants a body its soul/spirit? Since they are obviously not a part of the chemical process that builds the body, there has to be some way it gets attached.
Does the process require being birthed by a woman? If so what about all the test tube babies? Does the process require that parts of two parent souls be merged through the interaction between the sperm and the egg? Possibly. However I would say it is equally probable that a soul is attracted to a soulless body and therefore how the body is created is irrelevent.
The unknown grants no answers except for in the form of more questions. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 7:06:43 PM | Frivolimous,
It is a fact, in fact, that theologians from all those religions have determined that free will does exist.
This is not a surprise....but that says nothing about the logical validity of their determinations.
God, by definition, knows ALL..... past, present, future. God therefore must know everything we will ever do. Can anyone "surprise" god by doing something he/she did not know we were going to do. No. So what choices did we have in the first place? | |
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-One-
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Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 59 | |
| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 7:13:06 PM | | And yet somehow God continuously surprises himself, and is surprised by others, making a rock so big he himself can not move it....Why bother if you already know the answer to your own question? | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 7:15:34 PM |
God, by definition, knows ALL..... past, present, future. God therefore must know everything we will ever do. Can anyone "surprise" god by doing something he/she did not know we were going to do. No. So what choices did we have in the first place?
I see where you are having difficulty with this. Lets look at it this way. God can see everything that MIGHT happen, but not necissarially WILL happen.
Free will allows different outcomes and determines which of those MIGHT happens becomes reality.
Another way to look at it if you do not believe in temporal potentiality is that God can see everything you will do but did not dictate it perse. Your free will was not in any way removed by his forward knowledge of the events, it was just predicted.
It is difficult to grasp 4th dimensional logic but not impossible. Fifth dimensional reality on the otherhand gives me headaches. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 8:12:33 PM | God being all-knowing is not fact, but theory. Abraham, the first known conceiver of a single divine being, defined God as being the highest power that set the universe in motion. Throughout the Torah (old testament) we see interactions between God and people, where God makes a decision but then is 'surprised' by people when they make good arguments against him. Such as the plea for the survival of Sodom and Gomorah.. the argument that boiled down to 'if I can find ten good people in the cities, will you spare the whole cities?'
God can foresee the future because he is vastly intelligent and quite powerful... but it is a universe that can work its way in many directions. When Moses aproached Pharaoh God saw that if Pharaoh let the jews be free right away then they would not praise God, but would instead praise Moses or possibly Pharaoh. So God chose (yes, God has free will as well) to harden the pharaoh's heart so that God's miracles could be performed.
God knows alot of stuff, yes. He has great insight into our existance. He knows what an angry person will likely do, He knows what a compassionate person will likely do. He knows what any individual will likely do not because the future is already planned, but because humanity is made up of predictable elements. You launch three marbles on a flat surface at known angles and known velocities. A scientist will be able to determine the exact locations they will collide not because he sees the future, but because he known how marbles beginning in certain places, facing certain directions and moving with certain impulses will interact.
Um... I'm not sure exactly whose point I'm arguing any more so I'll just call it there. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 10:19:08 PM |
God can see everything that MIGHT happen, but not necessarily WILL happen....Your free will was not in any way removed by his forward knowledge of events, it was just predicted
The "God" of Islam, and I believe Christianity and Judaism is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. So "God" must have perfect knowledge of all events, not just what might happen. As soon as "might" enters into it, the implication is something might not happen according to God's "predictions"...but to say God predicts is to imply God does not know or is guessing. Also, what is the concept of "time" (past/present/future) to god anyways.
So of course, if you change the assuptions I make about god, then all kinds of things are possible. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 10:25:12 PM | ^^^^
You are still assuming that god has dictated your future just because he knows what it will be. This is not necissarially true. Your choices could still be your own even if he knows what they will be. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 10:26:42 PM | Frivolimous,
God being all-knowing is not fact, but theory
Well one could say "God" is not fact, but theory. And the assumptions about God in Islam, and I'm pretty sure in Christianity and Judaism are that God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent....at least that was how it was taught to me in the Islamic tradition. So derogate from these characteristics and possibilities certainly arise. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/2/2005 10:34:35 PM | Infornography,
Your choices could still be your own even if he knows what they will be.
If one is merely a character in a book that is already written, even though you yourself can't read ahead, does it mean you can change the future text? So you may think you have choices, but you can't help but follow the script ...so do you have free will if in reality there is only one path you will travel...despite what it may feel like to you at any given moment. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 2:46:50 PM | Haven't looked in on this thread for awhile... there was some doubt as to scientific proof that the aura exists mentioned back there aways. The scientists DO accept that there's an aura, but they have no explanation for it. They can see it, they can measure it. I am unable to find the article, but it was published in my city's newspaper. I will continue to look for it so I can post it here. Being scientists of course, they claim that only people who are related to the "subject" can see the aura, implying that it's a 'family' thing. Who knows who the test subjects were. It was not elaborated on.
Whatever. At least they acknowledge it exists and that it can be seen by people. When will a scientist ever go so far as to acknowledge anything that could be a 'soul's shadow', anyway? They and we are unable to 'prove' it. | |
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shrimp
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Joined: 3/10/2005
Msg: 67 | |
| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 2:54:17 PM | | We all have souls,that is our concience.If you go by science, your in trouble!! The good LORD gave us all a soul. True... it dont seem like alot of people have a concience, they havent found the LORD,and that is ehy alot of people are very bitter. | |
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shrimp
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Joined: 3/10/2005
Msg: 68 | |
| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 2:55:45 PM | | Everything is born with a soul.....animals dont have a spirit. | |
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shrimp
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Joined: 3/10/2005
Msg: 69 | |
| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 2:59:48 PM | | The goodLORD does all kinds of miracles....yes moving rocks too!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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shrimp
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Joined: 3/10/2005
Msg: 70 | |
| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:01:37 PM | | GOD knows what we do even before we do it. HE is the ALMIGHTY. HE knows all, and sees all. | |
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shrimp
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Joined: 3/10/2005
Msg: 71 | |
| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:03:25 PM | | GOD sees ALL...past,present and future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:11:21 PM |
You are still assuming that god has dictated your future just because he knows what it will be. This is not necissarially true. Your choices could still be your own even if he knows what they will be.
You're going to have to walk me through this one because it makes no sense to me. God knows what I'm going to do, right? God is always right, right? So when it comes to making a choice God knows what I'm going to do and God will be right. That means that there's no way for me to do anything else besides what God knows I'm going to do. If I were to make a different choice then God would be wrong. But God is never wrong so there's no way I could possibly make a different choice. If that's the case then I have no free will. So here are our choices:
1) There is no free will.
2) God is not omniscient.
Choice #1 does not require that God has dictated the future, just that I have no free will. | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:16:10 PM |
I see where you are having difficulty with this. Lets look at it this way. God can see everything that MIGHT happen, but not necissarially WILL happen.
So God's the Muad Dib? | |
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| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 5:14:45 PM |
God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent
OK, follow me on this...
One concept used to define God is as 'the point within the circle', when God is both the point and the circle. Take the country of England in the middle ages. England is a country. It's a big place with lots of stuff going on within it. But, as a country, it has unified goals, organizations, modes of living, laws, etc. How are these regulated? By chain of command. The whole chain of command goes back to one man/woman - the Monarch. The Monarch represents the country. When you think of England, you think of the Monarch. The Monarch can, therefore, be considered to be England.
In the same way, God is both the entirety of existance and a single unified entity. Because God is everything, He is everywhere. Because every mind is a part of Him, He knows everything that is known. Because He inhabits every vessel, He can do anything.
You're going to have to walk me through this one because it makes no sense to me. God knows what I'm going to do, right? God is always right, right? So when it comes to making a choice God knows what I'm going to do and God will be right. That means that there's no way for me to do anything else besides what God knows I'm going to do. If I were to make a different choice then God would be wrong. But God is never wrong so there's no way I could possibly make a different choice. If that's the case then I have no free will.
God can predict your actions because He knows you very well. Just like I know my mom is always going to worry, my dad will always make time for business first, my cat's gonna wake me up at 3:30 every morning and my roomate is going to continue to snore night after night. If you know a person's character you'll know what is going to upset them, what's going to please them, what's going to scare them, etc. You'll know if your girlfriend will start to cry
if you give her a diamond necklace or if she'll faint. Knowing what a person is going to do doesn't necessarily mean being able to see the future. | |
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shrimp
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Joined: 3/10/2005
Msg: 75 | |
| No Soul?
Posted: 8/3/2005 5:46:57 PM | | you people are so stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOD KNOWS ALL AND SEES ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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