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| | Coming out as an atheistPage 4 of 13 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13) | i think websters is wrong.
atheism is not the doctrine that there is no deity; it is the absence of a doctrine that there is a deity. it is not a subtle difference. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/1/2012 7:13:03 PM | You're free to carry and express whatever opinions
you like regarding the meaning of any word.
If you want to present another definition from a
reputable lexicographic source, it would lend some
credence to your opinion.
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/1/2012 7:26:53 PM | | do i have to? does not what i have written make its own sense to you? | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/1/2012 8:34:51 PM | If you want to argue with the dictionary, yes, you have to
support your opinion if you want to be taken seriously
by literate people.
I am not disagreeing with your opinion. Nor am I
endorsing it. You may be right in your opinion, but
if you want to make up your own definitions of words
and then argue that other people should accept
them, then you are taking a problematical position.
###
It is my hope that intelligent people reading this
thread can appreciate my position on defining terms
accurately. I did instigate the thread and feel a
bit of responsibility for what ensued.
I noticed that there were a lot of pre-suppositions
participants were attaching to terms under discussion.
This sort of thing I can only call "intellectual
bad habits" because they lead to false logic and
inappropriately inflammatory rhetoric, ad hominem
attacks, inaccurate assumptions about the
individuals participating, and so forth. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/2/2012 10:16:45 AM | there is a world of difference between atheism as the doctrine of godlessness and atheism being the lack of belief in gods or the doctrine of gods.
intelligent literate people will be able to decide for themselves without having to reference the answer. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/2/2012 10:52:06 AM | | I have to agree Fred. IMO the idea of "Godlessness" seems to apply more to ppl who are jaded and angry or have lost their faith somewhere. On the flip side, I think that atheists just believe there is no God. To me it's a dubious distinction but a distinction nonetheless. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/2/2012 11:21:38 AM | Losing faith isn't a bad thing. It's far more productive, safer, and rewarding to think with a logical, rational mind rather than believing things for which there is no evidence for.
Many Atheists were believers at one point. Why is it assumed that they are always jaded or something bad happened in their lives? Some minds just can't be imprisoned and will eventually break out, no matter how hard family and culture try and pound religion into peoples heads. That's all there is to it. Eventually, some people will not be satisfied with "Believing." They'll want to know why they believe what they believe and will find the truth. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/2/2012 12:21:19 PM | Fred introduced the word "godlessness", not me and not Webster's.
If you want to discuss that word as if it means the same thing
as athiesm, that's your option. I'm not disagreeing with either
of you because I'm writing about athiesm, not these other
words introduced here as imprecise pseudo-synonyms. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/3/2012 3:54:52 AM | guignol1971
I understand your situation, I live in quite a religious Islamic family, and while I have always said controversial things that have burned a few ears in my family I've always known where to draw the line. One fear is the possibility of exile from the family should my skepticism be revealed.
Furthermore, all my friends are muslims, and coming outright as a non believer would lead to myself being casted out.
At the same time, I think it's equally harmful being the victim of this situation so I tend to question things people around me say, I find the simple act of questioning causes some people to have a think about what they say and believe. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/3/2012 5:42:44 AM |
Fred introduced the word "godlessness", not me and not Webster's.
If you want to discuss that word as if it means the same thing
as athiesm, that's your option. I'm not disagreeing with either
of you because I'm writing about athiesm, not these other
words introduced here as imprecise pseudo-synonyms.
i wouldn't bother writing about it. not wishing to be hurtful but if you struggle to get your head around the simple difference between believing in something not existing, and not believing in something existing without websters defining the truth for you, your writings will be of little interest to people who can work this stuff out for themselves....
thinly thought-through verbiage is the same as waffling - pointless and dull. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/5/2012 1:31:42 PM | | concepts/words like atheism, agnosticism, religion, etc, are so basic, deep, important, and argued about that you can't simply define them by turning to a dictionary. We're still figuring out what they are in the first place, that's why people argue over them so much, so forget dictionaries. (technically, we're not still figuring them out. we've already figured them out. but people can't stop fighting over them precisely because of how important of a battleground these words are.) It's not that hard though - letting a word and/or concept tell you what it "wants" to mean. What it should mean. When you understand the purpose of language, and genuinely value truth. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/5/2012 1:51:47 PM | For example -
Atheism is lack of belief. In god. It is not a belief that there is no god. The key word in a practical definition is "belief", not "god". It's about whether or not you 'believe' things, in an intellectually irresponsible or dogmatic way. It's not a statement of your stance about god's existence, but a statement about if you practice 'belief' in this way (not to be confused with when belief is used to refer to values, or faith...in the sense that faith is really referring to holding out hope for something, or adhereing to an unwritten covenant with other people, etc etc etc)
If you believe that there is no god, then you are religious. Because that is a major component of what it means to be religious. And if you identify yourself as atheist, according to this definition, then you are just another one of the deceptive religious liars. Plain and simple.
If you see a definition of atheism that says "unbelief" in a god, or "disbelief" in a god...that should be a clue that even a dictionary author isn't quite clear on things, because unbelief and disbelief is a little too ambiguous, unclear.
There is not only a difference between a lack of belief, and belief that there isn't (which is the same as belief that there is)...and it is not only a big and important difference...but in fact, interestingly, this difference is an exact yardstick by which we can measure the full and vital difference between religion and non-religion/science in the most fundamental respects.
And notice, also, that it seems like "atheist" is what you think "agnostic" is. That's because it is. Atheism is simply that neutral stance. Reserving judgement. Being rational.
Agnosticism isn't even a choice or option on that spectrum. If, when making a statement about where you stand on religion, you identify as agnostic, it's like talking about how high green is. Someone who's asked you about your religious stance would have to say "ok, you're agnostic, but you haven't answered my question."
And it's a further clue as to how twisted things are when an agnostic, if you try to clear this up for them, acts as if it's a matter of opinion or belief or personal choice...just like a religious person does, or those who incorrectly identify as atheist...and they don't realize that you're not argueing over viewpoints, but instead it's more like a major misspelling, or one of those grammar mistakes that you see in some emails or profiles that makes you think someone's a retard or a little kid or someone for whom english is not a primary language - correcting you on "agnosticsm" is more like bringing a big misspelling or juvenile use of street-slang to your attention. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/5/2012 3:22:41 PM | i agree - agnostic isn't a clarification, its an obfuscation.
a believer holds a belief in god (for the sake of this argument, it could be gods, deities or whatever)
an atheist does not hold a belief in god.
an agnostic doesn't know if he holds a belief in god - well why doesn't he know? if you don't believe in god, whether it is because you have no opinion, no formed view, etc, then you don't hold, don't yet hold, may never hold a belief in god, but the point is, the 'agnostic doesnt hold a belief in god and until he does, he does not have a god, he does not have a belief in god - he is without a god, he is therefore atheist - a position that may well change, but the status quo is no god.
this isn't an attempt to bring agnostics to my side - it is instead a challenge to agnostics to demand why they hold a middle ground position. if you think there ought to be a god but you cannot see how - you are atheist, not agnostic. if you think you cannot see how there is a god but don't want to upset a god if it turns out there is one, you are just an atheist hedging your bets. if you just haven't considered the whole thing at all, the default position must be that you don't believe, now, yet, potentially ever, that there is a god - therefore, right now, you don't have a belief in god - you are atheist.
discuss | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/5/2012 4:51:04 PM | this isn't an attempt to bring agnostics to my side - it is instead a challenge to agnostics to demand why they hold a middle ground position. if you think there ought to be a god but you cannot see how - you are atheist, not agnostic. if you think you cannot see how there is a god but don't want to upset a god if it turns out there is one, you are just an atheist hedging your bets.
Totally agree. There is no middleground. To any person at all that is religous I look pretty much athiest. I will not stand on the 'maybe' or 'we can't know' or the 'what if' scenerio. It is 1 or 0.
I can't say no because my brain won't allow it. Even if it is a form of a mental crutch just to have faith in hope. I can't comprehend government being on the top of the food chain. I just can't do it.
The middle ground position is just weak. You can't prove what doesn't exist doesn't exist so maybe it exists because in a world of infinite possibilites you never know what is beyond your capacity to know. Uggg... All I have is... I agree. There is no evidence. I do not know why I believe but I do. I continue to ask myself why. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/5/2012 6:06:55 PM |
44 Christian presidents in a row does not indicate a society where nobody cares.
Not true. There have only been 43 presidents. Everyone counts Grover Cleveland twice. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/5/2012 6:12:17 PM | I think that these distinctions represent the philosophical persuasion on the validity of the following premise:
"God exists".
A theist agrees that the premise is valid, and agrees with the conclusion.
An atheist agrees that the premise is valid, but rejects the conclusion.
An agnostic agrees that the premise is valid, but argues that there isn't sufficient evidence to either prove or disprove god.
An ignostic simply rejects the premise, arguing that since there is no satisfactory or recognizable definition of what God is, there is no discussion to be had.
An apatheist agrees that the premise is valid (well, that is, a strong 'maybe' perhaps, but who cares), but is indifferent as to the conclusion, if there even is one.
A pantheist agrees that the premise is valid, but argues that god is nature. I think this may be where the Earth Gaiaists, as well as the 'spiritual but not religious' types, reside.
While I see some value in the above classifications in philosophical discussion (especially if it involves lots of beer), for the purpose of this forum, I think that most atheists simply outright reject the notion of 'God', end story. I think that most agnostics do as well, but use it as a tool to avoid these types of arguments in the first place, as in: "yea sure, god might exist in some form, but since your current arguments suck, and until he decides to manifest himself, go preach at someone else's door". | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/5/2012 7:41:27 PM | Atheist vs. agnostic...
On some level, they are just words, so who cares? There are people who call themselves atheists who believe in the exact same thing that people who call themselves agnostics believe and vice versa. I don't think too much energy should be spent on this debate.
Maybe the main reason why I tend to call myself atheist (in some ways, I prefer "non-religious") is that agnostic could mean that you are "still exploring", as if you haven't realized that religion is a little nutty. The only sense in which I am still exploring is that if somehow there were suddenly mountains of evidence for some religion, I would throw in the towel. But some people actually haven't realized that this sort of evidence is necessary to maintain your rationality consistently and be able to believe in these things. It's astonishingly obvious to me that religion is nonsense, not in the sense of being absolutely proven wrong, but in the sense of having only the most vacuous evidence and logic in its favor, and in some cases, depending on the religion in question, making the most extraordinary claims, multiplying this lack of evidence and logic by a factor of a trillion. As such, it is not much more justified to believe in these religions than any of the other infinitely many bizarre mythologies I could concoct off the top of my head to explain what our purpose in life might be. The difference between me and an "agnostic" just boils to the fact that I am the one who realizes that a "maybe" is insignificant when you take into account how many "maybe's" there are (infinitely many, with none being obviously superior to any other).
But of course, many people who call themselves agnostic would agree with me here. I just prefer having a word to make it clear that I have actively rejected religion. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/5/2012 8:52:31 PM | | Two Heads Are Better Than 1, You And I Can Accomplish More Together Than I Can On My Own... That Is A Concept Of A Higher Power. To Reiterate Your Statement That You Do Not Need A Higher Power. Get With It, There Is Only The Myth Of god. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/6/2012 2:27:53 PM |
The middle ground position is just weak. You can't prove what doesn't exist doesn't exist so maybe it exists because in a world of infinite possibilites you never know what is beyond your capacity to know. Uggg... All I have is... I agree. There is no evidence. I do not know why I believe but I do. I continue to ask myself why.
Or, maybe some of us are NOT so arrogant to believe that everything is knowable within our lifetimes.
It is possible to entertain an idea and have doubt as to it's veracity.
Saying you are "Not Sure" is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength.
If you are sure there is a Deity, great for you. If you are sure that there is NOT a Deity, great for you.
And belief or non-belief in a Deity is completely unrelated to belief in a religion. I could concieve an entirely different type of Deity unrelated to any established religion.
Do you believe in String Theory or Quantum Loop Gravity? Neither? Nor? Unconvinced of both but either are still plausible?
For some reason, some believe that it is perfectly reasonable to entertain the possibility of a Scientific Hypothesis being true, but not being sure that it is true, but to do this in regards to the existance of a Deity? Oh no's! You're sitting on a fence!
Insufficient information is a perfectly legitimate reason for NOT forming a conclusion. In fact you could argue that it is logically lax to NOT entertain the possibility of uncertainty.
Can that change over time? Of course.
In 20 years I could end up believing in a Deity, or an Atheist, or remain an Agnostic. The fact is, I just don't know where my beliefs will land in 20 years.
I don't have to believe in blind faith. On the other hand, the Universe is far greater and more complex than we know. That is not weakness, that is Humility. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/6/2012 9:11:35 PM |
And belief or non-belief in a Deity is completely unrelated to belief in a religion. I could concieve an entirely different type of Deity unrelated to any established religion.
Completely unrelated is a bit of a stretch. A deity does imply a religion, I think, although that's a bit subjective.
You can correct what I said to mean I reject belief in a diety actively, rather than just religion. It's a rather small point, since atheism is a significant part of that rejection. I'm not a "strong" atheist. I don't know if there's a God, but my level of belief in God is comparable to my level of belief in invisible pink unicorns. It makes sense to me to say I am "atheist" rather than "agnostic" with respect to Thor. That does mean I have absolute knowledge that Thor doesn't exist. It just means that I don't have the slightest reason to take the proposition any more seriously than any other random, unsubstantiated proposition that you throw at me.
Yeah, I'm not sure if there's a God, but I'm not sure about anything, so the point is that when I say I'm not sure isn't that important--I'm not sure I'm not going to be hit by a meteor next time I walk outside, but is it important? Hell no. True, we know that's a rare event, so we have good reason to believe its not important, but you can replace the meteor by a more wacky example like some demons that were spawned from hell that are about to eat me next time I walk outside and the point still stands. I'm 100% sure that no one has given me a rational reason to believe in God. That's the only thing I'm sure about. It's not about whether there is or isn't to me, just whether there is or isn't justification for it. I'm no fence-sitter when it comes to that.
If you ask me to guess, I'd say there probably is no such thing that resembles what people talk about as being a God, but it's just a guess, and I don't claim that it's any more than a guess, so that qualifies me as an atheist, even by the definition of "believing that there is no God". That's the reason why it doesn't take any faith to be an atheist. Religious people act like their stuff is true or at least very likely to be true, rather than just being a wild guess. All I do is just point out that it IS a wild guess. A VERY wild one in most cases, I'm afraid.
But I agree if you don't know, you should just say you don't know. Some people would call me agnostic because I don't know, either, when it comes down to it. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/7/2012 8:52:22 AM |
I don't have to believe in blind faith. On the other hand, the Universe is far greater and more complex than we know. That is not weakness, that is Humility.
Humility to whom? Holding out the possible what? That maybe at the edge of the universe is a guy in a chair with a staff?
But I agree if you don't know, you should just say you don't know. Some people would call me agnostic because I don't know, either, when it comes down to it
No one knows. No one really knows if they are even awake and seeing reality and if the reality they see has anything to do with the reality of the world. There is a tolerance level between known and unknown that allows for not having absolute certainty that the color blue is blue. It just isn't possible to absolutely know anything being a human. Holding out the idea of the possibility of things outside what you can possibly know doesn't make you a theist therefore atheist is quite acceptable.
I feel like I believe in something and my brain isn't willing to let it go despite not knowing exactly what that may be. Therefore I believe in something so for me it is acceptable to to say I am not atheist. I don't know what type of theist you would call it but because it is not nothing the only term available is theist. I am not religious so that may be why I don't have an expectation that there is an old man sitting at the edge of the universe.
Without the religious definition of God there is really a void and religion has done a fantastic job at confounding the definition of God. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/7/2012 1:58:00 PM | Holy cow. Jesus freaking christ.
And behold the logic-trickery of the malign, and the just-inaccurate-enough subversiveness embedded in even the otherwise correct observations.
...people, if we don't stop playing word-games, we're doomed. Words are the key. Magic words. They're the handles attached to the concepts. The tower of babel. Man was becoming as they were. The gods. So they confused our language, which gives them power over us, and takes away our strength, potential, and future. | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/7/2012 8:05:51 PM | A cautionary tale:
Sanal Edamaruku faces a Catholic backlash after insisting that the "holy" water dripping from a statue of Christ in Mumbai, India, came from a leaky drain. Edamaruku is the founder and president of Rationalist International, president of the Indian Rationalist Association, and honorary associate of the U.K. Rationalist Association.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2012/07/a_statue_of_jesus_oozing_holy_water_an_indian_skeptic_debunks_miracle.html | |
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| Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/7/2012 8:55:01 PM |
Without the religious definition of God there is really a void and religion has done a fantastic job at confounding the definition of God.
Worded awkwardly... reads like I said without religion there is a void. I just meant that religion has really done a fantastic job of screwing up the definition of God and religion is so strong that removing it pretty much wipes out the definition for God. Uggg... still doesn't sound right. Who cares... I'm tired. | |
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