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 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 176
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Coming out as an atheistPage 8 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
Your skydaddy disagrees with you. You have used skydaddy in nearly every argument so it is your creation. I disagree with your association that others beliefs = skydaddy and that somehow makes you superior in intellect and that your view of the world is somehow superior.


All I am saying is that, not only is there no evidence for a diety, the idea of a diety would never have occurred to anyone were it not for humanity's habit of anthropomorphising natural phenomena


Then where does skydaddy fit? You challenged others beliefs by using skydayddy. I am using skydaddy to challenge yours. Tell me... how does this make you feel.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 177
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Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/21/2012 12:40:30 PM
181:

I'm pretty sure you didn't read my post at all. Suddenly it's like you teleported to a different location in the ball park, and the baseball I just threw is now rolling to a stop all by itself on the ground.

...this isn't what I said, but it's a good follow-up: It's like some posters on "both sides", even ones that seem the most coherent, are to me actually some wanna-be artificial intelligence chat program experiment.

And they still aren't getting it right.
 Trailsman5
Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 178
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Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/21/2012 12:45:46 PM

I disagree with your association that others beliefs = skydaddy and that somehow makes you superior in intellect and that your view of the world is somehow superior.


I disagree with your assertion of what you think my position is.


Then where does skydaddy fit? You challenged others beliefs by using skydayddy. I am using skydaddy to challenge yours.


Then you would agree with my assertion that its not just what you say but HOW you say it. Also, it demonstrates how theism is marketed.


Tell me... how does this make you feel.


Tingly... in my groin area.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 179
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Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/21/2012 12:54:35 PM
I'm pretty sure you didn't read my post at all. Suddenly it's like you teleported to a different location in the ball park, and the baseball I just threw is now rolling to a stop all by itself on the ground.


I have that issue often. Your post was a bit of a wall of text so i had to pick out some parts and try to relate it to my point that you were said you were refuting. You said, "The nature of belief isn't that enigmatic."

With your reference to being grilled by a skilled lawyer manipulating language I tried to link that to how that is of more critical than belief which I thought was the basis for your response.

So, for the dumb people here (myself) can you explain it so I can understand?
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 180
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Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/21/2012 12:55:43 PM
Oh no...now he's getting tingly in the groin area. Everyone stand back.

LOL. really. out loud. that was good.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 181
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Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/21/2012 12:58:31 PM
186:

Just trace all that back to where it started. What was I responding to? And what was THAT responding to? And what was THAT responding to?

Track that sh*t down Daniel Boone.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 182
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Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/21/2012 1:03:35 PM

Tingly... in my groin area.


I will totally keep that in mind as I consider your world view and especially in relation to power struggles. Whatever floats your boat.


Then you would agree with my assertion that its not just what you say but HOW you say it. Also, it demonstrates how theism is marketed.

Because I do not disagree just to disagree I will agree with this. And for the record... it has only been recently that I have ever seen theism marketed. It is bizarre. The problem is that I see it as a direct response to the sky daddy rebellion.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 183
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Coming out as an atheist
Posted: 7/21/2012 1:27:53 PM

Track that sh*t down Daniel Boone


Guess the trail is over. If that path worked for me I wouldn't have asked you to clarify.

Anyway... one of the first people that triggered my questioning things was Darren Brown. Too bad his shows seem to be canceled. His Book trick of the mind was pretty good also. Like Penn and Teller do his biggest issue is with those that knowingly lie and profit off of it. It isn't the belief of people they have problems with but the exploitation of it by those who are obviously lying for exploitation of money or power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derren_Brown

Derren Brown: Messiah (2005)
Main article: Messiah (Derren Brown special)
Shown on 7 January 2005, Brown travelled to the United States to try to convince five leading figures that he had powers in their particular field of expertise: Christian evangelism, alien abduction, psychic powers, New Age theories and contacting the dead.
Using a false name each time, he succeeded in convincing all five that he had certain powers and four openly endorsed him as a true practitioner. The fifth expert, the Christian evangelist Curt Nordhielm, whilst impressed by Brown's performance, asked to meet him again before giving an endorsement. The concept of the show was to highlight the power of suggestion with regard to beliefs and people's abilities, and failure to question them. Brown made it quite clear with each experiment that if any of the subjects accused him of trickery he would immediately come clean about the whole thing, a rule similar to one of the self-imposed rules of the perpetrators of the Project Alpha hoax. His conclusion was that people tend to hear only things that support their own ideas and ignore contradictory evidence; this is known in psychology as confirmation bias. In the section concerned with religious belief, he 'converted' people to Christian belief with a touch. Afterwards, he 'deprogrammed' them of any such belief. During the programme, Brown stated that he was not opposed to people holding religious beliefs and that he respected those beliefs. He also made clear that he himself had, at one time, been a committed Christian.
 ProcolHarem
Joined: 8/29/2008
Msg: 184
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Posted: 7/21/2012 3:50:12 PM

During the programme, Brown stated that he was not opposed to people holding religious beliefs and that he respected those beliefs. He also made clear that he himself had, at one time, been a committed Christian.


Brown stated that he was not opposed to people holding religious beliefs and that he respected those beliefs.
As it should be...
Why is that simple little ideal so difficult for those with superior intellect to do?

Three people above trying desperately to "out clever" each other.
Awesome.

Two with alleged superior intellect beating their heads against the wall.
Comical.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 185
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Posted: 7/21/2012 4:10:04 PM
This is the URL for the video 8 segments. Totally recommend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kJ02I6QyagM

Segment 4 is when he converts atheists to believing in God. I have seen several of his shows on tv and read his book. He says everything he does is through illusion, misdirection and showmanship. He never claims to have any special abilities. I wish there was some way to know if his claims of 'no actors or stooges' and to what degree it was or was not staged. Even sometimes when he explains how he does things and the logic behind them it is pretty impressive.

I wonder how dangerous he could be if he were a jerk.
 Trailsman5
Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 186
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Posted: 7/21/2012 4:39:06 PM

Brown stated that he was not opposed to people holding religious beliefs and that he respected those beliefs.
As it should be...


He also said that as intelligent people we should be prepared to question our beliefs... as it should be.


Two with alleged superior intellect


Not about superiority, it's about access to information.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 187
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Posted: 7/21/2012 4:45:57 PM
Trailsman:
I don't mind two adults having a healthy debate and expressing their respective positions.
I asked as to your opinion of religious proselytizing, not 'two adults having a debate'. I think it's clear the correlation I am making, therefore your attempt to skirt the issue is duly noted.

Why isn't Skydaddy respectful? Since prayers start with, "Our Father who art in Heaven..." it seems I am paying homage to their own concepts.
First of all this assumes that all theists are Christian, which is definitely not the case.

And secondly, do you really need an explanation as to how the the term 'skydaddy' could be perceived as disrespectful to those whose views you are discussing? If so, and with all due respect.. it's clear there wouldn't be enough common ground to build mutual understanding here. And quite frankly, futility ain' my cuppa chai.

I would say that I am letting these folks know that society isn't monolithic and that they can be assured there are fellow travellers out there.
Once again skirting the issue..

It's obvious that your attempt to 'spread the atheist meme' has EXACTLY the same sentiment and intention embedded within it as does a proselytizing religious person. A fear based attempt to save the masses from what you consider a delusion/non truth.

It's highly ironic to me that I feel compelled to say- you have little faith in the very truths you seek to spread.


Tell me... how does this make you feel.
Tingly... in my groin area.
So this is how debates go in the science forum..

I think I'll leave you big boys to it.
 Trailsman5
Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 188
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Posted: 7/21/2012 5:19:29 PM

I asked as to your opinion of religious proselytizing, not 'two adults having a debate'.


I would ask that you duly note that these are things that I am saying in an internet discussion about this very topic. I'm not knocking on doors, I'm not on a street corner, and I'm not on a television channel on Sunday morning (an oversight, I'm sure). I think the rules of engagement I have stuck to removes the ideas of my proselytizing.


First of all this assumes that all theists are Christian, which is definitely not the case.


Agreed. Though it could apply to all the Abrahamic faiths.


do you really need an explanation as to how the the term 'skydaddy' could be perceived as disrespectful to those whose views you are discussing?


Well that's my point exactly. I'm discussing the exact same concept, just marketing it differently. By saying "Our Father" or "the Lord" or even referring to gods by their proper names in polytheism... it lends a ridiculous idea a veneer of respectability. Of course "Skydaddy" seems immaturish and silly. It was silly before I called it that.

Consider what would happen to the coke vs. pepsi debate if all softdrinks were forced to use plain yellow cans and the same font in black lettering. Would anyone care then what flavoured sugar water you drank? First we brand the product, then the product brands us.


A fear based attempt to save the masses from what you consider a delusion/non truth.


I take issue with that statement. I will tell you that not believing in my message will result in nothing more than cognitive dissonance. Theists will tell you (depending on the theism) that you will be eternally tortured or perhaps return to earth as a****oach. Hardly the same thing and hardly fear-based.


So this is how debates go in the science forum.


Well, one shouldn't ask questions one doesn't want the answer to.
 Trailsman5
Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 189
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Posted: 7/21/2012 5:36:30 PM
Although I should be flattered at the thought that I, a lone man with a laptop, has the same level of persuasion as religions that have been culturally imbedded for thousands of years, that have access to printing presses and television studios and an international network of followers and branch outlets.

Thanks shakti, you've made my day. :)
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 190
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Posted: 7/21/2012 5:38:35 PM

Well, one shouldn't ask questions one doesn't want the answer to.


And I'm quite sure you were totally honest. Skydaddy would be proud. If you really do have these bizarre fetishes you may want to seek therapy. Megalomania with sexual components is highly disturbing and should be treated with serious medication.

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/addpost.aspx?PostID=15452676&x=35&y=1


Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs'.
...
Unfortunately, 'a person with megalomania may not be interested in self-reflection or personal change',[18] so the talking cures may be less effective than medication.


Access to information.... The more ya know.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 191
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Posted: 7/21/2012 5:40:29 PM

I think the rules of engagement I have stuck to removes the ideas of my proselytizing.
Semantics.

Though it could apply to all the Abrahamic faiths.
You do realize there are religions and spiritual paths outside of that, why leave them out ?

It was silly before I called it that.
It's silly to you but not to them, hence my point.

People generally listen better when they feel their ideas aren't being mocked.. wouldn't you agree??

First we brand the product, then the product brands us.
It would appear that you are blind to your own branding.. even as you point fingers outward at others for doing the very same thing. I do believe that's called projection.

I take issue with that statement. I will tell you that not believing in my message will result in nothing more than cognitive dissonance. Theists will tell you (depending on the theism) that you will be eternally tortured or perhaps return to earth as a****oach. Hardly the same thing and hardly fear-based.
But you don't believe in the eventuality that the Christians espouse, just as they don't believe in yours.. so it is in fact within the same realm. And it's fear based in the sense that you feel people need saving from their delusions/non truths. As I said, you seem to have no faith that they will come to the truth on their own. Otherwise, there would be no need on your part to spread the atheist meme ;)
 Trailsman5
Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 192
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Posted: 7/21/2012 5:42:03 PM

Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs'.


Well then tell people to stop equating me to the Pope. I resist the comparison.


Access to information.... The more ya know.


I agree. :)
 Trailsman5
Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 193
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Posted: 7/21/2012 6:01:00 PM

You do realize there are religions and spiritual paths outside of that, why leave them out ?


I do realize that, but cultural bias and an unwillingness to type a list of all the major religions everytime I reference dieties compelled me to use a shorthand. I am an equal opportunity debunker, I assure you.


People generally listen better when they feel their ideas aren't being mocked.. wouldn't you agree??


People generally listen better when they are agreed with. People generally have emotional responses when they don't have reason to fall back on. A ridiculous concept is, by definition, open to ridicule. By framing the concept in another way I can remove the listener from their previous paradigms. These are the same paradigms that allow young girls and old women to be tortured and killed because of witchcraft in Africa. It keeps gays out of the Boy scouts of America. It excuses polygamy, misogyny, homophobia, sectarian warfare and caste systems. I will not apologize if my words have snapped someone out of their destructive trance.


And it's fear based in the sense that you feel people need saving from their delusions/non truths.


If you point out to a British person that they are driving on the wrong side of the road when they are driving in NA, are you terrorising them? If you tell a child not to eat the candy bar he found on the sidewalk, is that fear based? Does that equal the threat of eternal damnation in your mind?


As I said, you seem to have no faith


Correct. I have logic and reason.
 Trailsman5
Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 194
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Posted: 7/21/2012 6:18:26 PM
Aries:

Here's another definition for you:


Tongue-in-cheek is a phrase used as a figure of speech to imply that a statement or other production is humorously intended and it should not be taken at face value.


Remember, its the theists that are supposed to be humourless.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 195
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Posted: 7/21/2012 6:37:22 PM

I will not apologize if my words have snapped someone out of their destructive trance.
I think that you are vastly overestimating the power of your position and simultaneously underestimating your own blindness.

It's been fun, but I recognize futility when I see it.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 196
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Posted: 7/21/2012 6:41:40 PM
I totally understood that nearly everything you post is 'tongue-in-cheek'. It is a forum and obviously not a serious place.

and then I throw this out
http://speakupforyourself.blogspot.com/2010/11/sarcasm-humor-that-hurts.html

Sarcasm and teasing are used to get distance from the other person. Zinging a person is a way of pushing them away from you. A good question to ask yourself is why do you need to treat that person in such a way as to make them distanced from you?


When people ask you to stop using a metaphor that truly offends them and tell you that while that is being used your message is totally lost and the only recourse is reject entirely any and all points you have... Try listening.

Like it or not. I already characterized the current Athiest meme. You want to continue perpetuating that false meme then go right ahead. Just know that you are promoting a falsehood which doesn't speak well to your character nor to the message you thought you were delivering.

Athiesim is not unicorns and sky fairy's and skydaddys nor spaghetti monsters. It is the absence of a ritualistic belief in a Deity and with the supernatural components of those beliefs.

Or are you just going to tell me I am wrong again?
 Trailsman5
Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 197
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Posted: 7/21/2012 6:46:57 PM

are you just going to tell me I am wrong again?


How can I do that? You've just stated my position clearly and succinctly.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 198
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Posted: 7/21/2012 7:10:40 PM

Brown stated that he was not opposed to people holding religious beliefs and that he respected those beliefs.
As it should be...

I disagree. There's nothing respectable about a series of enormous fallacious assumptions tied to a primitive superstition supported by 'magik'.
Especially when people label it 'truth'.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 199
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Posted: 7/21/2012 7:56:26 PM

I disagree. There's nothing respectable about a series of enormous fallacious assumptions tied to a primitive superstition supported by 'magik'.
Especially when people label it 'truth'.


He doesn't respect it as much as that sentence made it sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqDuPQTaewg


To explain a bit how he works watch this. I'm sorry but I really do like this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1TUdmuOeg&feature=related
At the halfway point he explains what he did to the audience.
 ProcolHarem
Joined: 8/29/2008
Msg: 200
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Posted: 7/22/2012 5:57:34 AM

People generally listen better when they feel their ideas aren't being mocked.. wouldn't you agree??


I don't think I have ever read a "discussion" on POF where non-believers did not mock believers.
Is that really part of the atheist doctrine?
Or is it just what the intellectually superior do? lol.
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