| | not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???Page 2 of 3 (1, 2, 3) | OK...I'm going to getting everyone jumping all over me here about the "karma" thing...but as far as I am concerned this is where karma comes in.
You might just get lucky and have scored a free lawnmower (unlikely but possible)....then you'll find that this week or next week the car will blow a tyre or the washing machine will go kaput or you'll just plain lose your purse out shopping.
I believe the universe has a way of evening things out....you might win this round but you'll end up out of pocket some other way. Do unto others etc. | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/21/2012 3:51:47 AM | | Not sure about legally (though if you knowingly accepted something you had already cancelled an order for I think you're on shaky ground there, like most of the other people in this thread), but ethically you should definitely pay for it if you're going to keep it. | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/21/2012 4:44:37 AM | so you've learn't something here,
never mention anything like this on a public forum.
keep the lawnmower, the minute you phoned and cancelled your order whoever was at the start of that chain should have put their cancellation in to whatever courier they we're using, its a flaw in argos procedure, the minute you cancelled your order its in argos court. if they can't be arsed to do their job properly then it ain't your problem.
fraud? no... crappy cancellation procedures from argos? yes...
So there's my two pence, it may be partly devils advocate, but its also just an opinion.
Cheers | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/21/2012 5:10:39 AM |
I don't know how French law sits on your coat, but 'Retail Regret' is not enshrined into the UK Sale of Goods Act - any shop that agrees a refund just because 'it' may be cheaper elsewhere/you don't like the colour/it's the wrong size and you didn't try it on at the time/there's nothing really wrong with it, you've just gone off the idea/ is doing you a favour - it's called goodwill. (by the sound of it, there was precious little of this going on)
No it's not goodwill. Because the OP ordered the item online e-commerce laws and the Distance Selling Regulations apply. This means the buyer is legally entitled to return an item for refund for any reason within seven days of receipt.
I don't know where the law stands regarding the delivery of an already cancelled item but since this is not an unsolicited item (you ordered then cancelled) I wouldn't imagine you have a leg to stand on legally (or morally for that matter).
If you want to be clear it may be worth contacting trading standards. A few years ago I had a book delivered to me out of the blue by one of these book clubs where you can join if you agree to buy a minimum number of books a year. They sent me repeated invoices (about £3.50 I think) for the book which I binned and they eventually sent me a debt collectors letter demanding £25. I contacted trading standards who advised me I was entitled to keep the book as an unsolicited gift. I just ignored the debt collectors letter too and I've heard nothing more from them. However a comparison would be if Argos had randomly sent you a lawn mower you had never ordered and then asked for payment.
Essentially this is a delivery made in error but as I say I would get expert advice. Also I would consider if you are likely to want to buy anything from Argos again. | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/21/2012 5:16:02 AM | Iain - In msg 22 the coat referred to was not bought on the internet, but in person, in Paris.
The DSR stuff ONLY applies to mail order/internet sales.
The case described was totally outside of these provisions, at which point it is a matter of goodwill, not legal obligation.
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/21/2012 6:06:29 AM | | if the op doesnt pay for the lawn mower, it is unlikely that karma will zap her, but highly likely it will zap us all... shops just up the price of everything else to cover theft.. they aren't going to absorb the loss, but we (all the other consumers) will be expected to foot the bill on other items that we purchase.. | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/21/2012 7:44:09 AM | | feck em..id just act dumb and keep it until they ask for it back..pretend that you thought it was paid for..they make millions profit every year..i doubt the loss of a lawn mower worth a few hundred quid is gonna bankrupt them..? | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/22/2012 9:24:19 AM | Having been on the audit team that has audited hundreds of Argos branches in the past ( I used to be a Chartered Accountant with one of the Big 3), I can guarantee you that nothing will happen. At the end of the accounting year, they'll just charge the provisions. Its cheaper than trying to get you to pay for or retrieve the product.
However, keeping the lawn-mower does make you a dishonest person.
Most people are dishonest.
And very stupid.
Hence PoF. | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/22/2012 9:31:03 AM | Mmmm, naughty!
You took delivery of an item that you knew was not yours. Both parties consented to a refund.
You are now either legally required to pay for the (cheap) mower if Argos request you do, or you should inform them that you have taken delivery of it.
Or you can cross your fingers and legs and hope for the best. And get some integrity! | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/22/2012 11:10:43 AM | If that happened to me i would call Argos and explain the situation.
It may only be a lawn mower but I would have it constantly on my mind
that I had received the goods without paying for them and I just wouldn't feel right until it had been resolved.
I'm sure that you will do the right thing OP and either return it or pay for it. | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/22/2012 10:35:21 PM | | some outfits do take money out of your account and leave it to you to fight for it back, look in small print, you ordered it than accepted it a day late, argos may just accept it back as most people do not want court cases , day off work the hassle etc, if you take it out of original packaging it could be accepting the product , i cant see as theft or fraud charges being brought as long as in keep it as received, i once didnt get paid for a job i still had the key so i romoved 6 rads in which wasnt mine, i was asked to go to cop shop and they questioned me, i said i was keeping them till i was paid , they even tried to trick me saying that i could have used them, or sold to recover loss, i said not mine to sell, if i did then i would have charged, i was let go and told to go to county court, i won but not full amount 80 quid i got then i had to return rads, try and sort out first with argos | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/23/2012 3:38:28 AM | good lord...
argos are not going to shell out a large stack of money on legal proceedings on something worth less than 100 quid... there going to spend more in legal fluff than the end product is worth...
the police won't give a hoot, as its not theft technically... and it certainly isn't fraud. the minute the order was cancelled, it was up to argos to make sure that the whole thing was cancelled, if they can't be bothered to have a procedure that looks after their stock... then why should me/we/us as a consumer care about it?
given the argument, everything accidently sent to you/me/anyone should be given back, because it all could be seen as theft.. the point is... it isn't...
sooooo for some good fun i thought i'd make a mock up of how it would go...
Argos : We need the police
Police: What can we do?
Argos: Theirs been a theft...
Police: What store was broken into?
Argos: well... we sent this item to a courier who then delivered it to the address we gave them!
Police: ... so you sent the item to the house?
Argos: Well yes, but they didn't pay for it?
Police: So you've****d up an order?
Argos: no-no, they ordered it and paid for it!
Police: so that isn't theft?
Argos: but a refunds been given to them!
Police: so, you've make an error or its Fraud?
Argos: Well we couldn't deliver it on the date agreed even though we said we could. So the customer canceled over the phone.
Police: so you were totally aware about the cancellation of the order?
Argos: Well yes, they phoned us and cancelled the order.
Police: And you didn't tell the courier not to deliver it...
Argos: Well the order had been cancelled.
Police: .... so your idiots then? and are now wasting police time... follow other legal avenues...
meh.... the only other real arguments put down are the argument of karma... which doesn't exist. And the idea of dishonesty... which makes me cackle like an old witch thinking that everyone who has posted here has ALWAYS been honest and has NEVER done something others may find questionable...
theirs a lot of pots calling kettles black...
cheers | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/23/2012 4:01:49 AM | the police won't be involved as their has not been an offence committed yet..
Once the retailer runs an audit and receives an invoice from the Currier for the e delivered goods,
another invoice will be raised and sent to the customer..
If the customer refuses to pay the invoice then ,it will be handled by the civil courts,
and a debt agency will be instructed to collect the funds..
It will only become a criminal matter if the customer acknowledges receipt of the goods and refuses to pay for them on the grounds that it was retailers mistake..
Every retailer will have a disclaimer in the T&Cs stating that the goods will remain theirs until full payment has been made..
So if the payment is still disputed ,then a crime has been committed --obtaining goods by deception | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/23/2012 4:06:11 AM | LOL @ the morals police jumping on this. Exploiting incompetence does far more good to humanity in the long term. It's Argos's thought for employing a bunch of mongs.
Keep the lawn mower, you haven't broken the law and the mistake will be written off. I've had loads of stuff like this happen in my life and I've always taken advantage of a situation where someones incompetence has put me at an advantage.
You'd be suprised just how many free things you can get in life from the brain dead. Recently Lloyds credit cards gave me £400 for hurting my feelings. I even took a picture of my bank statement because I was so proud. lol
I have free phonecalls and broadband for life with TalkTalk. Why? because the English billing team are not allowed to question the Indians call center complaints department, nor do they have access to the complaints resolution outcome, those who are clever can figure out how it's done. Cheers an gone. | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/23/2012 4:49:57 AM |
Once the retailer runs an audit and receives an invoice from the Currier for the delivered goods,
another invoice will be raised and sent to the customer..
If the customer refuses to pay the invoice then ,it will be handled by the civil courts,
and a debt agency will be instructed to collect the funds..
yup... so argos then have to do all the legwork, which costs time and money, they then have to bring it to the courts, which also costs money, they have to hope like hell that the courier has good records because i dunno about you, but the majority now use those pda's and i've never once managed to put a sign on them that remotly resembles my signature yet. also they (argos) have to prove that she did actually recieve it, not the courts but argos have to do all of this... anyone can forge a signature... even the delivery driver... so the only real solid piece of evidence is a delivery address which may or may not contain said lawnmower? so now where?
micky mouse now has a lawnmower somewhere that hasn't been paid for... solid court stuff this...
so after all this time an enegy has been put into what? ... a budget lawnmower.... and by argos website that means one thats less than 60 quid...
so... from argos point of view... its the expense really worth it under all of that.
Every retailer will have a disclaimer in the T&Cs stating that the goods will remain theirs until full payment has been made..
So if the payment is still disputed ,then a crime has been committed --obtaining goods by deception
very well i'l roll with this, and i find no flaws with it... but how do they prove an item is theirs? no origonal box, been lying around for a bit... how do they prove to a court that this is ours and we want it back? also the "full payment" part refers to mainly Hire purchace... get a telly from brighthouse? its technically theirs till you've paid whatever lengh of contract it is. and even brighthouse have a hell of a job recouping failed paid for items. additionally, it *was* paid for, it was also *cancelled*, from the point of the courts, the contract had been cancelled before the goods got anywhere near the house, so regardless of if micky mouse or anyone else for that matter signs for it, the courts will scrutinise why Argos failed to cancel the delivery, even with full knowledge of the cancellation... their was no fraud or deception involved.
again. a sh!t load of work for the sake of a less than £60 lawnmower.
seems fairly straight forward to me | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/23/2012 6:00:19 AM | the value of the goods are irrelevant , well only to say that with it being under £500 disputes can be dealt with via the small claims court.
Yes i agree the onus is on the retailer.to prove that the customer did in deed receive the goods.. the only way of this being done is for the customer to deny she received the goods..
Bringing in the Currier as a witness and the signature evidence,they will stand up in court as proof of delivery..
If she does choose this avenue and it can be proved without any reasonable doubt ,
then she is guilty of a criminal offence fraud/theft obtaining goods by deception..
You are right that bringing people to court is an expensive and time consuming option ,
normally a strongly worded letter threatening court action and the adverse affect a county court judgement will have on your credit rating ,is normally enough for the retailer too ensure the settlement of the invoice..
Legally at this time no payment is due ,, because the original contract was cancelled and funds returned..
It will only become an issue either,when the customer contacts the retailer or they raise an invoice..
with their not being any statue of limitations ,it could be next week,month or year,before the matter comes too light..
if the customer is prepared to take the chance ,that's where her morals will kick in ..but its her call,
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/24/2012 5:53:18 AM | Similar thing happened to me although not quite the same in that I didn't cancel the order and hadn't yet paid as it was Next Directory. I ordered a jacket which didn't turn up; I called them and advised them of this and they sent out another one. The original one then turned up. It was a Superdry £100 jacket so I thought I'd chance my arm and see if they noticed; if not maybe pop it on Ebay. They did. It took a couple of weeks but they did and it came up twice on my account statement. I phoned and explained and they took it back no problem.
Guess it all depends on the efficiency of the despatch/ returns department. I can't see Argos missing this mistake myself. | |
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/25/2012 5:47:30 AM | well you can all climb down off your high horses..
i called argos, explained THEIR mistake, and the operator went to ask her supervisor, and came back to me and told me it was a mistake on THER part and that i could keep the mower and they were sorry for the inconveiance... and to accept the product with thier compliments...
the question was NEVER about was it moral to keep it, but was i legally obliged to tell them, ( as a colleague had mentioned something whilst i was at work) and i just wondered what the LEGAL situation was.. as stated prreviously, i never intended to gain anything that wasnt mine...
maybe some people should actually read a question before getting on the morral high horse...
so alls well hat ends well... oh and the grass looks great....
EDIT..
oh please form an orderly queue with your apologies on the dishonest claims..
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| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/25/2012 6:19:00 AM | | It is not a criminal offence to sign for and accept something that came to your house in your name .You are not obligated to return the item or pay for it unless you ordered it .She did cancelled the order therefore she did not order it .She can keep it .They discuss this also on You and Yours on BBC radio4 about two months ago. | |
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Pud78
| | Joined: 4/29/2010
Msg: 49 | |
| not sure legally how i stand anyone maybe have a clue..???
Posted: 7/25/2012 6:42:32 AM |
i never intended to gain anything that wasnt mine...
It was never your original intention but you were very opportunistic when the opportunity arose and like the majority of people in the same situation you tried or at least wanted something for nothing. I am in that majority and think morally and legally it is a grey area but in your situation I would have kept the product and my conscience would be clear.
To tell people to get of their high horse and that they need to re-read the question then I suggest you read your own OP as I think it shows that you did want to gain from something that you knowingly wasn't yours. | |
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