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 Author Thread: gun control in the usa
 packleader

Joined: 8/18/2006
Msg: 51
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History
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/20/2007 7:39:20 PM
I resuurrected this thread because the conversation is timely,and the following is an argument for gun control.I will also present an argument from the other point of view in another post on this same forum.


LOS ANGELES (CNN) -- Most days, it is not at all hard to feel proud to be an American. But on days such as this, it is very difficult.

The pain that the parents of the slain students feel hits deep into everyone's hearts. At the University of California, Los Angeles, students are talking about little else. It is not that they feel especially vulnerable because they are students at a major university, as is Virginia Tech, but because they are (to be blunt) citizens of High Noon America.

"High Noon" is a famous film. The 1952 Western told the story of a town marshal (played by the superstar actor Gary Cooper) who is forced to eliminate a gang of killers by himself. They are eventually gunned down.

The use of guns is often the American technique of choice for all kinds of conflict resolution. Our famous Constitution, about which many of us are generally so proud, enshrines -- along with the right to freedom of speech, press, religion and assembly -- the right to own guns. That's an apples and oranges list if there ever was one.

Not all of us are so proud and triumphant about the gun-guarantee clause. The right to free speech, press, religion and assembly and so on seem to be working well, but the gun part, not so much.

Let me explain. Some misguided people will focus on the fact that the 23-year-old student who killed his classmates and others at Virginia Tech was ethnically Korean. This is one of those observations that's 99.99 percent irrelevant. What are we to make of the fact that he is Korean? Ban Ki-moon is also Korean! Our brilliant new United Nations secretary general has not only never fired a gun, it looks like he may have just put together a peace formula for civil war-wracked Sudan -- a formula that escaped his predecessor.

So let's just disregard all the hoopla about the race of the student responsible for the slayings. These students were not killed by a Korean, they were killed by a 9 mm handgun and a .22-caliber handgun.

In the nineties, the Los Angeles Times courageously endorsed an all-but-complete ban on privately owned guns, in an effort to greatly reduce their availability. By the time the series of editorials had concluded, the newspaper had received more angry letters and fiery faxes from the well-armed U.S. gun lobby than on any other issue during my privileged six-year tenure as the newspaper's editorial page editor.

But the paper, by the way, also received more supportive letters than on any other issue about which it editorialized during that era. The common sense of ordinary citizens told them that whatever Americans were and are good for, carrying around guns like costume jewelry was not on our Mature List of Notable Cultural Accomplishments.

"Guns don't kill people," goes the gun lobby's absurd mantra. Far fewer guns in America would logically result in far fewer deaths from people pulling the trigger. The probability of the Virginia Tech gun massacre happening would have been greatly reduced if guns weren't so easily available to ordinary citizens.

Foreigners sometimes believe that celebrities in America are more often the targets of gun violence than the rest of us. Not true. Celebrity shootings just make better news stories, so perhaps they seem common. They're not. All of us are targets because with so many guns swishing around our culture, no one is immune -- not even us non-celebrities.

When the great pop composer and legendary member of the Beatles John Lennon was shot in 1980 in New York, many in the foreign press tabbed it a war on celebrities. Now, some in the media will declare a war on students or some-such. This is all misplaced. The correct target of our concern needs to be guns. America has more than it can possibly handle. How many can our society handle? My opinion is: as close to zero as possible.

Last month, I was robbed at 10 in the evening in the alley behind my home. As I was carrying groceries inside, a man with a gun approached me where my car was parked. The gun he carried featured one of those red-dot laser beams, which he pointed right at my head.

Because I'm anything but a James Bond type, I quickly complied with all of his requests. Perhaps because of my rapid response (it is called surrender), he chose not to shoot me; but he just as easily could have. What was to stop him?

This occurred in Beverly Hills, a low-crime area dotted with upscale boutiques, restaurants and businesses -- a city best known perhaps for its glamour and celebrity sightings.

Oh, and police tell me the armed robber definitely was not Korean. Not that I would have known one way or the other: Basically the only thing I saw or can remember was the gun, with the red dot, pointed right at my head.

A near-death experience does focus the mind. We need to get rid of our guns.

This argument was presented in an article in the L.A. times.

Pack
 packleader

Joined: 8/18/2006
Msg: 52
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History
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/20/2007 7:50:05 PM
As I said before,I would present the "other" view in a following post........



WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.

Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

Nearly a decade ago, a Springfield, Oregon, high schooler, a hunter familiar with firearms, was able to bring an unfolding rampage to an abrupt end when he identified a gunman attempting to reload his .22-caliber rifle, made the tactical decision to make a move and tackled the shooter.

A few years back, an assistant principal at Pearl High School in Mississippi, which was a gun-free zone, retrieved his legally owned Colt .45 from his car and stopped a Columbine wannabe from continuing his massacre at another school after he had killed two and wounded more at Pearl.

At an eighth-grade school dance in Pennsylvania, a boy fatally shot a teacher and wounded two students before the owner of the dance hall brought the killing to a halt with his own gun.

More recently, just a few miles up the road from Virginia Tech, two law school students ran to fetch their legally owned firearm to stop a madman from slaughtering anybody and everybody he pleased. These brave, average, armed citizens neutralized him pronto.

My hero, Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp, was not allowed by Texas law to carry her handgun into Luby's Cafeteria that fateful day in 1991, when due to bureaucrat-forced unarmed helplessness she could do nothing to stop satanic George Hennard from killing 23 people and wounding more than 20 others before he shot himself. Hupp was unarmed for no other reason than denial-ridden "feel good" politics.

She has since led the charge for concealed weapon upgrade in Texas, where we can now stop evil. Yet, there are still the mindless puppets of the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun organizations insisting on continuing the gun-free zone insanity by which innocents are forced into unarmed helplessness. Shame on them. Shame on America. Shame on the anti-gunners all.

No one was foolish enough to debate Ryder truck regulations or ammonia nitrate restrictions or a "cult of agriculture fertilizer" following the unabashed evil of Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime against America on that fateful day in Oklahoma City. No one faulted kitchen utensils or other hardware of choice after Jeffrey Dahmer was caught drugging, mutilating, raping, murdering and cannibalizing his victims. Nobody wanted "steak knife control" as they autopsied the dead nurses in Chicago, Illinois, as Richard Speck went on trial for mass murder.

Evil is as evil does, and laws disarming guaranteed victims make evil people very, very happy. Shame on us.

Already spineless gun control advocates are squawking like chickens with their tiny-brained heads chopped off, making political hay over this most recent, devastating Virginia Tech massacre, when in fact it is their own forced gun-free zone policy that enabled the unchallenged methodical murder of 32 people.

Thirty-two people dead on a U.S. college campus pursuing their American Dream, mowed-down over an extended period of time by a lone, non-American gunman in possession of a firearm on campus in defiance of a zero-tolerance gun ban. Feel better yet? Didn't think so.

Who doesn't get this? Who has the audacity to demand unarmed helplessness? Who likes dead good guys?

I'll tell you who. People who tramp on the Second Amendment, that's who. People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones. People who are so desperate in their drive to control others, so mindless in their denial that they pretend access to gas causes arson, Ryder trucks and fertilizer cause terrorism, water causes drowning, forks and spoons cause obesity, dialing 911 will somehow save your life, and that their greedy clamoring to "feel good" is more important than admitting that armed citizens are much better equipped to stop evil than unarmed, helpless ones.

Pray for the families of victims everywhere, America. Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back. Embrace the facts, demand upgrade and be certain that your children's school has a better plan than Virginia Tech or Columbine. Eliminate the insanity of gun-free zones, which will never, ever be gun-free zones. They will only be good guy gun-free zones, and that is a recipe for disaster written in blood on the altar of denial. I, for one, refuse to genuflect there.

What is your take ?

I think the guy that wrote this is Ted Nugent.

Pack
 wvwaterfall

Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 53
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History
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/20/2007 9:34:32 PM
Oh, what a dicey issue to even try to address.

And that's what disturbs me most about this: how impossible it is to actually engage in civil discussion about gun law. Passions run deep on both sides. Many are naturally appalled by not only dramatic events like the 32 killed at Virginia Tech, but the many thousands of lives lost in the U.S. every year by bullet. On the other side are the many who feel any restrictions whatsoever on any sort of guns, ammo, or gun purchasing policy are a direct threat to their constitutional rights and ability to protect their loved ones.

I learned how to use a gun responsibly as a boy scout. I own two, a rifle and a shotgun, both passed down through the family. I hunt, but only on my own property and only for food for personal consumption. Yet if it were possible for me to give up my guns knowing that every other gun in the country would disappear at the same time I'd turn them over in a heartbeat. Clearly that isn't possible, but I want to make clear that my guns are simply tools, not an expression of my manhood or a symbol of my freedom or even anything that makes me feel any more secure in my own home.

Nor is it at all likely that we'll respond to this tragedy by issuing every student and teacher a gun to tote to class, and that's a good thing. While such a policy might mean we'd never lose 32 lives in a single one-sided incident like this one again, I'm confident we'd lose a lot more than 32 more lives each year through many more disputes settled by gunfire that would otherwise not involve more than harsh words or fisticuffs.

But rather than make an attempt to justify tightening gun restrictions, I'll just lament that we can't even bring a discussion of that option to the table. Yes, there will be dueling editorials and endless irrational debates on forums like these, but no politician hoping to ever win another election will dare introduce even the most meager piece of gun control legislation. The gun lobby simply yields too much clout.

I live in WV, a state with a huge Democrat majority that just made our current president's biggest detractor in the Senate, Robert C. Byrd, the longest serving Senator in history by a landslide. Yet we solidly supported Bush in both elections, more than anything else because the NRA succeeded in convincing our hunters that first Gore, then Kerry were sure to take their hunting rifles away. Never mind that neither even had gun control included in their platform, or that Kerry is a far more avid hunter than Bush. Charlton Heston said vote for Bush, so we did. By a bunch. And when did the Republicans take over Congress? Immediately after the Democrats had the audacity to vote to ban cop-killer bullet and assault weapon purchases. I doubt you'll see them repeat those political mistakes again.

The other lethal weapon many of us have access to is an automobile, yet we don't hear auto clubs screaming in outrage whenever we tweak traffic or drunk driving laws. And we're all held to a much higher standard for the privelege to drive than for the privelege to own a gun, yet with no public outcry.

It sure would be nice if the NRA used an opportunity like this to call for SOME sort of improvements designed to increase the ratio of responsible to irresponsible gun use. But no, all we'll hear is the same sort of vehement defense of ANY sort of gun access for anyone and everyone based on the totally irrational premise that our forefathers INTENDED to create a society with more gun crime than any other civilized country.

I made the proposal in another thread that we open any discussion on gun law by leaving sacred the right to bear the arms that existed for personal use when the second ammendment was ratified. There - now that we've covered the consitutional aspects, can we just sit down and at least TALK about the issue?

I don't know what the answer is. I just wish we could check our weapons and vitriole at the door and sit down like adults to consider reasonable alternatives.

Dave
 texas_tomboy

Joined: 4/4/2007
Msg: 54
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/20/2007 9:44:05 PM
ted kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun maybe we should ban automobiles
 DAVE632

Joined: 6/17/2006
Msg: 55
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History
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/20/2007 10:26:46 PM
A couple of points.

Waaay back in 1776 the dudes who wrote the Constitution determined, quite accurately, that the biggest threat to the freedom of any peoples was likely NOT outside the borders but their own government. The "right to bare arms" was a way to keep the government honest too and forever empower the citizens to be able to protect themselves from abuses by their own leaders.

The 20th Century saw the elimination of 80 to 100 Million people due to wars. During that same period governments - mostly communist governments - KILLED well over 100 MILLION of THEIR OWN CITIZENS. The populations of those countries were defenseless due to them being unarmed.

Russia exterminated probably 40 MILLION citizens. China over 80 MILLION. Cambodia & Laos lost almost HALF their populations during the 70's. When America is criticized and held out as THE evil incarnate in the world today it is a statement which knowingly ignores historical FACTS. America has never taken huge numbers of their own citizens and executed them for possibly not thinking pure capitalist thoughts. To seriously compare the two is idiotic or displaying such a level of ignorance one shouldn't even bother arguing with them. "Don't confuse the issue with the FACTS."

Swizterland has remained NEUTRAL for hundreds of years. It has existed as a separate country pretty much since the 12 Century and developed a modern democratic process about 60 years after America did.

The Swiss are armed to the teeth - have been for 400 or 500 years. Nobody screws with their "neutrality" because the loss of armies to conquer Switzerland wouldn't be worth the rewards in the end. EVERY man between 18 and 55 has a handgun and an assault rifle and a 1,000 rounds of ammo for each. They also have fast access to more sophisticated weapons and explosives. The AVERAGE time between reported incidents of a Swiss citizen using his military weapons in a crime or a murder is 13 YEARS !!

Obviously with proper training and attitude guns are NOT the problem. It kind of screws up all this BS about guns killin folk. If THAT was even half right the murder rate in Switzerland would HAVE TO BE the highest in the world, no? No - Not even close.

Canada or rather our idiot politicians, over-reacting to a school shooting in Montreal, initiated a "gun registry". Prior to the massacre gun ownership was controlled by a Firearms Acquisition Certificate. Gun purchases (legal ones) were dependent on the purchaser passing tests, criminal and Mental Health Act background checks and acquiring and showing this certificate. Handguns have had to be licensed and registered since 1927 - 80 YEARS ago.

The shooting which prompted the new legislation was done by a Muslim male in his 20's who thought women shouldn't be in school and they were screwing up his life. He had grown up in the Green Zone of Beruit Lebanon during the civil war there. Guns were THE way of solving "issues." He moved to Canada, changed his name and ended up killing 14 women whom he felt were responsible somehow for him being a complete fµ¢kup.

Government POLLS, after this school shooting

(see: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-398/disasters_tragedies/montreal_massacre/ )

showed that the average urban citizen had no idea about handgun registration going back 80 years and thought gun purchases were like in the US - walk in with cash - walk out with a machine gun or whatever you wanted. The population was ignorant and that is EXACTLY how governments want us to be. They introduced legislation to REGISTER guns. As handguns were already, it came down to shotguns and rifles, both of which are NOT the weapons of choice if you're a banger and want to blow away a rival in a nightclub in front of his bro's.

TWO AND A HALF BILLION DOLLARS later the gun registry is up and NOT running. It is mired in redundancy and error. It has not been shown to have stopped ONE gun crime in Canada since being implemented. Farmers and skeet shooters , if they have not complied with the "law" , are now criminalized while bangers get diddlie-squawat even after multiple convictions of illegal ownership, shooting other bangers and violating probabtion / parole. The gun registry is a JOKE and still we are paying for this bloated bureaucracy to continue paper shuffling and not contributing to a reduction in gun crime at all.

All our weapons are NOT coming in from the USA. Half of ILLEGAL HANDGUNS are coming in through Italy and are the old Eastern Block military handguns. Good hard cash for them. Good high quality handguns for the bangers. Do HONEST citizens buy illegal handguns from ther Balkans? NO WAY!!! Do WE have to register a varmint .22 on our farms on penalty of prison time? Yup. The law actually makes excuses for the bangers and NO excuses for a farmer for not complying with some idiotic law that sees him as a bigger danger to society with his .22 than a Jamaican banger with a 9mm in his pants going to a RAVE with the idea to make hisself look like a MAN by perforating half a dozen innocents in the club.

More later if anybody wants a serious discussion in here ...
 colchar

Joined: 5/9/2006
Msg: 56
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/20/2007 11:36:14 PM
Huisatcheman(d795023) said:

The people have the right to bear arms.

Your claim is only true if you are incapable of reading the entire sentence. If you have read the entire sentence and still think that way then you need some serious help with your english skills.
 colchar

Joined: 5/9/2006
Msg: 57
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/20/2007 11:52:45 PM
DAVE632 said:
Waaay back in 1776 the dudes who wrote the Constitution determined, quite accurately, that the biggest threat to the freedom of any peoples was likely NOT outside the borders but their own government. The "right to bare arms" was a way to keep the government honest too and forever empower the citizens to be able to protect themselves from abuses by their own leaders.

What a crock. Read the entire sentence for God's sake. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." This has nothing whatsoever to do with their own government but had everything to do with protecting the state (which had, after all, just finished a war with Britain) from outside threats.


DAVE632 also said:
The shooting which prompted the new legislation was done by a Muslim male in his 20's who thought women shouldn't be in school and they were screwing up his life. He had grown up in the Green Zone of Beruit Lebanon during the civil war there. Guns were THE way of solving "issues." He moved to Canada, changed his name and ended up killing 14 women whom he felt were responsible somehow for him being a complete fµ¢kup.

What in God's name are you talking about? Marc Lepine did not grow up in Lebanon. He grew up in Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, and then Montreal (from the age of seven or eight). Before you spout off about stuff like this why don't you try getting your facts straight first?
 wyomingmale

Joined: 4/1/2007
Msg: 58
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/21/2007 12:06:54 AM
They should pass a law that it would be against the law to be unarmed. Gee think that may put a damper on the violent crimes. if everyone was armed. I carry a gun with a license.
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 59
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History
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/21/2007 8:06:35 PM
Many people who are anti-gun seem to think that gunowners have the attitude of "You can pry my gun from my cold, dead hands. I don't care if giving up my gun would decrease the homicide rate by 50% or more, cure cancer, cause world peace, or let lions and lambs sit peacefully side by side..."

The main issue is that there is no compelling evidence that a gun ban would be effective in signifigantly decreasing violent crime, or even the number of guns themselves. Guns cannot be "uninvented." For that matter, I don't think anything can. Even if they could be effectively banned from the public commercially (and a big "if," at that), a black market of illicitly imported and manufactured guns would arise in its wake. They would be more expensive, yes, but that would just encourage the black marketing of them. Simple, primitive guns can be homemade, to boot (really??). It would be like a second iteration of Prohibition. Declare war on guns if you wish, but don't be surprised if it is as "successful" and costly as the "War on Drugs" and the "War on Terror."

I found a site that hopes to repeal the 2nd Amendment:
http://www.gunguys.com/?m=200704

It details various gun crimes and reprints the words of anti-gun activists. But they fail to provide any actual evidence of the benefits, or even the practicality, of imposing a gun ban. They are against guns because they are the weapon of choice in the majority of homicides (about 66%). Fair enough. But upon further thought, I have a philosophical problem with this attitude (surprise). Why not cut out the middle man (the weapon) and campaign against homicide itself? Are they only against murder that involves a firearm? It appears that way from the site. Their passion against firearms overshadows their passion against murder.

If they were to focus on decreasing homicide instead, they might think about campaigning for more police (oops-- they use guns), more prisons, and more education. Here's a quote repopularized after the Patriot Act. I think it is also appropriate to this debate:

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. " Ben Franklin
 livefire

Joined: 2/3/2007
Msg: 60
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History
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/21/2007 8:53:25 PM
Todays society would rather blame something/someone else than to take responsibility for their own actions.
 livefire

Joined: 2/3/2007
Msg: 61
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History
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/21/2007 9:46:52 PM
Interesting thing is, the LA Times also put out this article on 4/20/2007.... trying to be 'all things to all people'?


Gun control isn't the answer
Why one reaction to Virginia Tech shouldn't be tightening firearm laws.
By James Q. Wilson, JAMES Q. WILSON teaches public policy at Pepperdine University and previously taught at UCLA and Harvard University. He is the author of several books, including "Thinking About Crime."
April 20, 2007


THE TRAGEDY at Virginia Tech may tell us something about how a young man could be driven to commit terrible actions, but it does not teach us very much about gun control.

So far, not many prominent Americans have tried to use the college rampage as an argument for gun control. One reason is that we are in the midst of a presidential race in which leading Democratic candidates are aware that endorsing gun control can cost them votes.

This concern has not prevented the New York Times from editorializing in favor of "stronger controls over the lethal weapons that cause such wasteful carnage." Nor has it stopped the European press from beating up on us unmercifully.

Leading British, French, German, Italian and Spanish newspapers have blamed the United States for listening to Charlton Heston and the National Rifle Assn. Many of their claims are a little strange. At least two papers said we should ban semiautomatic assault weapons (even though the killer did not use one); another said that buying a machine gun is easier than getting a driver's license (even though no one can legally buy a machine gun); a third wrote that gun violence is becoming more common (when in fact the U.S. homicide rate has fallen dramatically over the last dozen years).

Let's take a deep breath and think about what we know about gun violence and gun control.

First: There is no doubt that the existence of some 260 million guns (of which perhaps 60 million are handguns) increases the death rate in this country. We do not have drive-by poisonings or drive-by knifings, but we do have drive-by shootings. Easy access to guns makes deadly violence more common in drug deals, gang fights and street corner brawls.

However, there is no way to extinguish this supply of guns. It would be constitutionally suspect and politically impossible to confiscate hundreds of millions of weapons. You can declare a place gun-free, as Virginia Tech had done, and guns will still be brought there.

If we want to guess by how much the U.S. murder rate would fall if civilians had no guns, we should begin by realizing — as criminologists Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins have shown — that the non-gun homicide rate in this country is three times higher than the non-gun homicide rate in England. For historical and cultural reasons, Americans are a more violent people than the English, even when they can't use a gun. This fact sets a floor below which the murder rate won't be reduced even if, by some constitutional or political miracle, we became gun-free.

There are federally required background checks on purchasing weapons; many states (including Virginia) limit gun purchases to one a month, and juveniles may not buy them at all. But even if there were even tougher limits, access to guns would remain relatively easy. Not the least because, as is true today, many would be stolen and others would be obtained through straw purchases made by a willing confederate. It is virtually impossible to use new background check or waiting-period laws to prevent dangerous people from getting guns. Those that they cannot buy, they will steal or borrow.

It's also important to note that guns play an important role in selfdefense. Estimates differ as to how common this is, but the numbers are not trivial. Somewhere between 100,000 and more than 2 million cases of self-defense occur every year.

There are many compelling cases. In one Mississippi high school, an armed administrator apprehended a school shooter. In a Pennsylvania high school, an armed merchant prevented further deaths. Would an armed teacher have prevented some of the deaths at Virginia Tech? We cannot know, but it is not unlikely.

AS FOR THE European disdain for our criminal culture, many of those countries should not spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000, the rate at which people were robbed or assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Poland, Denmark and Sweden than it was in the United States. The assault rate in England was twice that in the United States. In the decade since England banned all private possession of handguns, the BBC reported that the number of gun crimes has gone up sharply.

Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence have also occurred in Europe. In recent years, 17 students and teachers were killed by a shooter in one incident at a German public school; 14 legislators were shot to death in Switzerland, and eight city council members were shot to death near Paris.

The main lesson that should emerge from the Virginia Tech killings is that we need to work harder to identify and cope with dangerously unstable personalities.

It is a problem for Europeans as well as Americans, one for which there are no easy solutions — such as passing more gun control laws.
 drg1301

Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 62
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 10:26:58 AM
Oh get real people. The only thing gun control does is remove the firearms from law abiding people. The criminals are not going to care about another law that they are breaking.
As a matter of fact a lot of criminals are in favor of gun control measures. It makes things easier for them.
 lynmaher

Joined: 3/16/2007
Msg: 63
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 10:39:23 AM
koss, you just contradicted your point.
Should there be gun control, the black market would flourish and crime statistics would soar. If there is someone who wants to inflict damage, they will find a way to obtain the tools in which to inflict that damage.
Reflect the result of prohibition..... why would we want to repeat that fiasco?
 TubbyDaTuba

Joined: 6/1/2006
Msg: 64
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 10:58:44 AM
There is no need to "guess" what our forefathers were thinking about when they wrote the Second Amendment; Please read the Federalist Papers and you will "hear" them in their own words. The Second is not about hunting, or self protection it is a final barrier to a corupt government about to wrest the power from the hands of the people (us). You take a look at every dictatorship in history and the first step of making a population into slaves is to take away their ability to defend themselves (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and all the socialists in America agree that we need gun control).

OF THE 33 PEOPLE THAT DIED AT VT, ONLY TWO DIED BEFORE THE COPS GOT THERE.....THE COPS ARE UNABLE TO PROTECT YOU. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE BALLS TO PROTECT YOURSELF, THEN DON'T STAND IN THE WAY OF THOSE THAT DO.

When the Second Amendment falls, so do all the other "Rights".
 daniel5799

Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 65
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 11:03:45 AM
Dont have a problem with people owning guns, but lets admit a few facts...
1. Most importantly the second amendment states IN A WELL REGULATED MILITIA. Militia logically refers to > 1, well regulated... well that speaks for itself to be in direct contradiction to many arguments being used on this post.
2. Shot guns are the best form of home self defense (ya dont gotta aim real good) unless you are planning to protect your home from an invading army.
3. The argument that if you get rid of guns only criminals will have them. This is probably a true statement, although the real purpose of gun laws is to lower the total amount of guns available. This cuts down on the entire bell curve thereby logically lessening either extremity.
4. The very same people who want no gun control, have no problem handing over much more serious personal freedoms in the name of SECURITY. They do not understand that as the Founding Fathers knew, the real danger to freedom and security comes from ones own government. In the past 50 years, beginning with the CIA and ending most recently with the Patriot Act we as Americans have been drifting closer and closer to ending democracy as we have been taught in school and we have done it in complicity.

By all means have guns, I love deer chilly, but get the facts strait before you rant about things that you are completely ignorant on other than repeating information received from organizations with an obvious agenda (on both sides). Look it up, its so easy nowadays.
 drg1301

Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 66
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 11:08:37 AM
Gun control has not lowered the violent crimes in any country that has put them in place.
In fact one of the countries with the lowest crime rates is Switzerland. There automatic weapons are issued .
Switzerland also has one of the lowest unemployment rates.
 TubbyDaTuba

Joined: 6/1/2006
Msg: 67
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 11:24:29 AM
Danial, read the Federalist Papers and you will find you are wrong on the origins and intent of the 2nd

The lack of guts of the social greenies amaze me.......I don't understand a National Ethos or Personal Credo that let's an entire room full of people just stand there and let this happen. Where are the men? If six good men had rushed insane punk the second he showed himself, this would have been over a lot sooner. I guess I expect too much of the Sheeple these days. If you are staring death in the face and call 911, you're dead.
 solarianus

Joined: 4/19/2005
Msg: 68
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gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 11:32:51 AM
daniel5799, you shouldn't berate people for not having the facts straight in the very same post that lists 'facts' that are obviously not true.

"1. Most importantly the second amendment states IN A WELL REGULATED MILITIA. Militia logically refers to > 1, well regulated... well that speaks for itself to be in direct contradiction to many arguments being used on this post."---daniel5799

that is not the most important part. That part lists the why, but not the what. Try going to court and arguing that the reasoning behind a law is more important than what the law actually says.....that would be very humorous

"2. Shot guns are the best form of home self defense (ya dont gotta aim real good) unless you are planning to protect your home from an invading army."---daniel5799

actually, you do have to 'aim at least a little good'. they don't spread that much...especially at ranges found in your home. and statistically, you ARE more likely to be killed by an army than by a criminal.

"4. The very same people who want no gun control, have no problem handing over much more serious personal freedoms in the name of SECURITY."---daniel5799

you obviously are not even slightly familiar with the Libertarian party
 TubbyDaTuba

Joined: 6/1/2006
Msg: 69
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 11:35:43 AM
Anyone else notice that all these mass killings occur in "Gun Free Zones"?

Google this: Gun Law Kennasaw Georgia. You will read a story about a town that enacted a law that every head of household was required by law to own a gun. Crime went way, way down and has stayed that way for a couple decades. Just showing a gun will usually stop a crime or violent act.
 TubbyDaTuba

Joined: 6/1/2006
Msg: 70
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 11:41:34 AM
solarianus,
The Bill of Rights are not laws. They are enumerations of rights, given by our Creator, that laws must be written to conform to. For the most part, Judges have really screwed over America with their writting of new law from the bench. The two parties of congress, of course, don't mine this because they all hope to "buy" their own judges someday.....
 solarianus

Joined: 4/19/2005
Msg: 71
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gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 11:52:31 AM
the bill of rights is about law---it just so happens to be a portion of the very highest level of law that we have in this nation. You can could change it and make it have nothing to do with rights whatsoever.....but whatever you do to it is still law. It is an attempt to recognize by law the rights that we are born with.
 colchar

Joined: 5/9/2006
Msg: 72
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 11:55:41 AM
TubbyDaTuba said:
"There is no need to "guess" what our forefathers were thinking about when they wrote the Second Amendment . . . The Second is not about hunting, or self protection it is a final barrier to a corupt government about to wrest the power from the hands of the people (us)."

Nice try. The Second Amendment does not refer to protection from a corrupt government. It refers to freedom of the state, not freedom from the state. The only way your interpretation can be valid is if you change the wording of the amendment. They had recently fought for independence and were concerned about protecting the state from outside dangers. It is very clear if you read what they said rather than what you wish they had said.
 colchar

Joined: 5/9/2006
Msg: 73
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 12:01:02 PM
TubbyDaTuba you have repeatedly suggested that people read the Federalist Papers but I suggest that you do so yourself. Its amazing how many references there are to defending the state from foreign powers.
 LordofArachnids

Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 74
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 12:05:39 PM
actually, most americans misread the delcaration, it does not mean that every american should own a gun, it only referred to soldiers, read up on your own history
 COCOTTE

Joined: 9/15/2006
Msg: 75
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gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/22/2007 12:29:33 PM
I do not see gun control as taking guns away from every one, gun control should be about who can own one and what kind of gun, a lot of these mass killings are done by people that existing gun control law forbids them to own one.

If procedure would have been followed, Cho would have not been able to get one just by buying one in a gun shop.

Someone explain to me the need to own these automatic and semi autaumatic guns, shurely not for hunting. Self defense? maybe, but do we need something so powerful.

We should look for some kind of solution. There are so many intelligent people out there, without calling each other names a decent discussion might bring out some great ideas.
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