|
|
|
|
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/30/2008 3:26:04 PM | twoleftfeet_tworighthands posted : Really though, I strict legislation regarding guns could actually do a lot in terms of crime-prevention, as could harsher penalties for those who commit gun crimes. I mean, why does anybody need a handgun on America? Unless there is some massively compelling reason that overrides all the senseless killing handguns facilitate, I'd suggest scrapping every last one of them. Plenty of other nations (check out most countries in Europe, as well as Japan, and of course Canada, have far fewer guns, and lo and behold, far fewer gun crimes! The idea of criminals running amuk in countries with tight gun laws is completely without evidence, and contrary /to/ all the available evidence. -------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll answer that...gun control Laws have been used in the US...specifically it was illegal for many years in New York and Washington D.C to own a gun...what happened?? Murder rates were THE highest in the nation...rapes...all kinds of violent crime happening with little police protection...and those two cities have more cops than anywhere else. NY repealed it's law and saw an IMMEDIATE drop in violent crime...
Other countries are exactly that...OTHER COUNTRIES. The US has grown up with a reliance on guns and through guns we have grown to be what we are. We ain't perfect, but we're a damned sight better off than Australia is right now...did you know that they declared a near-total gun ban there...and that any weapons kept in a home must be kept UNLOADED in a safe?? (I'm all about keeping them in a safe...but definitely loaded) And JUST GUESS what Aussie violent crime rates are doing??? GOING SKY HIGH!!! Many citizens have started keeping their weapons hidden in "knock-boxes" (Normal looking items which hide weapons) so they can stay out of "Plain View" of law enforcement, but they're close at hand in case they need 'em...
Canadians really only need guns for defense against bears & wolves...generally not much going on crime-wise unless one is in a city of size, plus it's just TOO COLD TO DO ANYTHING for half the year...but before you get too high & mighty about low crime in Canada...check out the RCMP criminal files sometime very interesting reading...your crooks are just as bad as our crooks...y'all just have a MUCH lower population and it's a heck of a lot more spread out...our rural areas don't have much crime either...but you really don't want to deal with our cities...even we don't like going to NY, DC, New Orleans, Chicago, Miami or LA...I travel often to New Orleans and wear a bulletproof vest and carry at least two pistols every trip...it's dang near a requirement for survival...much like carrying a large-bore rifle or pistol when in Polar/Grizzley Bear territory.
The reality is, in the US, there are SO MANY guns out there that it would be impossible to get them all and we'ed have rampant crime if we DID try to because they'd go to the legitimate owners with no criminal records FIRST (because they're Registered) which would leave them as easy targets for the criminals who would then HAVE ALL THE GUNS. If you can't see that as a bad situation...you need counseling.
Part of it is the attitudes that one grows up with...Those that grow up in rural areas see guns as a tool...nothing more. Pretty much the same with the suburbs...city folks don't have a clue how to handle/deal with guns other than what they see criminals doing on the streets daily...and they think gun bans are WONDERFUL ideas...until you show them DC & NY and let them realize what gun bans actually do in a country where there is a near-infinite supply of legal and illegal guns around...not to mention our borders are porous as a sieve so the flow of Illegal guns wouldn't be slowed in the least...but legal ones sure would...hrm..whatcha think would happen then, sparky???
Canucks have their country, we have ours...we won't be like you, and you won't be like us...just get along , get over it, and deal with it, or we'll send Bill Gates to buy the whole dang place and use y'all for a huge ski resort.  | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/30/2008 4:42:11 PM |
Other countries are exactly that...OTHER COUNTRIES. The US has grown up with a reliance on guns and through guns we have grown to be what we are.
Can't argue with you there....
We ain't perfect, but we're a damned sight better off than Australia is right now...did you know that they declared a near-total gun ban there...and that any weapons kept in a home must be kept UNLOADED in a safe?? (I'm all about keeping them in a safe...but definitely loaded) And JUST GUESS what Aussie violent crime rates are doing??? GOING SKY HIGH!!! Many citizens have started keeping their weapons hidden in "knock-boxes" (Normal looking items which hide weapons) so they can stay out of "Plain View" of law enforcement, but they're close at hand in case they need 'em...
Let's look at some crime stats from Australia , and see what happens....
Don Weatherburn, the Director of the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, also rejects the OECD findings here.
He claimed the report out-of-date and misleading.’Property and violent predatory crime in Australia reached a peak in 2000, due to an epidemic of heroin use that began in the mid-1990s. Since that time, heroin use and heroin-related crime in Australia have fallen sharply. ABS figures show that between 2000 and 2004, the recorded rate of homicide fell 25%, the recorded rate of robbery fell 33%, the recorded rate of burglary fell 33%, the recorded rate of motor vehicle theft fell 40% and the recorded rate of general theft offences fell 23%.”
http://kalimna.blogspot.com/2006/04/australia-high-crime-country.html
Violent crime
Violent crime includes homicide, assault, sexual assault, robbery and kidnapping (sometimes referred to as abduction). Although robbery may include an element of property crime, it is included as a violent crime, as the use or threat of violence is a more serious offence. Table 1 : Victims of violent crimes, 1996-2005
(number) Homicide Assault Sexual assault Robbery Kidnapping 1996 354 114,156 14,542 16,372 478 1997 364 124,500 14,353 21,305 564 1998 332 130,903 14,336 23,801 707 1999 386 134,271 14,104 22,606 766 2000 363 138,708 15,759 23,336 695 2001 346 152,283 16,897 26,591 767 2002 365 160,118 17,977 20,989 706 2003 341 157,280 18,237 19,709 696 2004 293 156,849 18,400 16,513 768 2005 295 166,499 18,172 16,787 730
* Between 1996 and 2003 the number of homicides has fluctuated between 330 and 390 victims. In 2004 and 2005 the number of homicides dropped below 300.
* A slight increase was reported in the number of robbery offences, from 16,513 in 2004 to 16,787 in 2005. The number of robbery offences in 2004 was the lowest recorded since 1996.
* The number of recorded kidnappings fluctuates yearly. Over the period 1996-2004 the number of kidnappings registered a steady increase. However, between 2004 and 2005 it decreased slightly, from 768 to 730.
* While the overall trend in recorded sexual assaults has shown a steady increase over the period 1996-2004, 2005 recorded a slight decrease on the previous year.
* Assaults have continued to represent the majority of recorded violent crimes. The overall trend since 1996 has been upward, with an increase of 46% between 1996 and 2005. Between 2004 and 2005 recorded assault offences increased by 6%.
Source:
* Australian Bureau of Statistics 2006. Recorded crime, victims, Australia 2005. ABS cat. no. 4510.0. Canberra: ABS
* For violent crimes, the trend in the past three years has varied. Recorded homicide and robbery registered declines between 2002 and 2004, but increased slightly between 2004 and 2005.
* Sexual assault and kidnapping increased between 2003 and 2004, but registered a decline in the following year.
* Recorded assault changed little between 2003 and 2004 before increasing in 2005.
* Variability from year to year is generally more pronounced for offences that have a smaller number of victims, such as homicide.
Property crime
* As in previous years, other theft was the most commonly recorded property crime in 2005, accounting for 59% of property crime victims.
* The number of recorded victims of other theft increased steadily until 2001, but since then has been decreasing. The total decline between 2001 and 2005 was 26%.
* In 2005 there were 284,188 recorded victims of an UEWI, a decline of 8% from the previous year and the lowest rate recorded since 1996.
* The number of MVT victims increased by 24% between 1996 and 2001 but decreased by 42% between 2001 and 2005.
The overall trend in property crime offences in the past four years has been one of decline.
Source:
* Australian Bureau of Statistics 2006. Recorded crime, victims, Australia 2005. ABS cat. no. 4510.0. Canberra: ABS
Recorded crime rates
Trends in the number of recorded crime victims do not take into account increases in the population over time. As a result an increase may reflect an increase in the general population over that time period rather than an increase in the actual likelihood of a person becoming a victim of crime. Crime rates adjust for changes in population size and in this section are calculated for every 100,000 persons in the population.
* The trend in the rate of recorded assault has shown a steady increase from 1996 to 2005. The rate in 2005 was 819 per 100,000 compared with 623 per 100,000 in 1996. The 2005 rate was the highest recorded since 1996. * The rate for robbery peaked at 137 per 100,000 in 2001, the highest recorded since 1996. Since 2001 the rate has declined, to 83 per 100,000 in 2005. * The rate of kidnapping was subject to substantial fluctuation between 1996 and 2005. In 2005 it stood at 3.6 per 100,000 persons. * The homicide rate was 1.9 in 1996 (which includes the 35 victims of the Port Arthur shootings) and was at its highest in 1999 at 2.0 per 100,000 before dropping to 1.5 in 2005. * The trend in the rate of recorded sexual assault has displayed a steady and significant increase between 1996 and 2005. However, between 2004 and 2005 the rate declined slightly (from 92 to 89 per 100,000).
Sources:
* Australian Bureau of Statistics 2006. Recorded crime, victims, Australia 2005. ABS cat. no. 4510.0. Canberra: ABS * Australian Bureau of Statistics 2002-2005. Population by age and sex, Australian states and territories (various issues). ABS cat. no. 3201.0. Canberra: ABS
Property crime rate
* The rate of other theft, the largest category of recorded property crime, increased between 1996 and 2001, and has declined thereafter. * The rate of UEWI remained relatively stable from 1996 to 2001 and has declined since then. * The rate of MVT declined by 41% between 1996 and 2005, from 671 to 397 per 100,000. This decline largely occurred from 2001 onwards.
Sources:
* Australian Bureau of Statistics 2006. Recorded crime, victims, Australia 2005. ABS cat. no. 4510.0. Canberra: ABS * Australian Bureau of Statistics 2002-2005. Population by age and sex, Australian states and territories (various issues). ABS cat. no. 3201.0. Canberra: ABS
Between 2000 and 2005, violent crimes (murder, robbery and kidnapping) declined in all categories of location, although the decrease was not uniform across all location types. Violent crimes carried out at transport and retail locations declined the most, by 44% and 36%, respectively.
* Between 2000 and 2005 the number of property crimes carried out on transport, on the street/footpath, or in a recreational location declined the most, by 36%, 36% and 43%, respectively.
* Property crimes at residential locations declined by 28% and at retail locations by 18% between 2000 and 2005.
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2006/01_recorded_crime.html
Seems that , without guns (GASP ! ) , crime rates can actually decrease ...
Canadians really only need guns for defense against bears & wolves...generally not much going on crime-wise unless one is in a city of size, plus it's just TOO COLD TO DO ANYTHING for half the year...
We have street gangs (including Crips and Bloods) , drug addicts, and the usual suspects on out streets - but the unarmed versions (generally).
but before you get too high & mighty about low crime in Canada...check out the RCMP criminal files sometime very interesting reading...your crooks are just as bad as our crooks...y'all just have a MUCH lower population and it's a heck of a lot more spread out...
True, in some ways. In major population centers like Toronto and Montreal we should still see a closer correlation to US crime stats - and we don't.
I travel often to New Orleans and wear a bulletproof vest and carry at least two pistols every trip...it's dang near a requirement for survival...much like carrying a large-bore rifle or pistol when in Polar/Grizzley Bear territory.
Thank God for how safe those guns are keeping you , then.
When I go outside, I put on my coat. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/30/2008 6:48:43 PM | I don't know about the rest of America. But my state releases stats for CPL's, how many applied, passed, denied, ect. Since Michigan became a shall issue state, we have issued allot of CPL's yet, of all the holders, i think there was like 8 people who had their CPL revoked after having it (it could be wrong about that number as it was about 2 years I read it).
CPL holders ARE NOT the ones commiting the crimes! Criminals are. Guns are not evil, CPL holders prove this point perfectly. The ones who make people afraid of guns are the criminals. A gun won't fire itself, it needs someone with intent.
You say guns are dangerous, but the danger is in a person who doesn't give a damn about who they hurt. The danger is the criminal, not the gun. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/30/2008 6:56:03 PM |
The danger is the criminal, not the gun.
A criminal WITHOUT a gun is a lot less dangerous, and has to work a lot harder to kill or injure someone.
Gun control means exactly that, controlling access to guns - not banning them.
If gun control didn't work, done properly, then the US crime stats would be among the best in the Western industrialized world - since most other countries in that group have at least some measure of gun control, and indeed most have FAR stricter regulations.
The USA doesn't reflect that in it's crime stats, as much as the NRA wants you to believe otherwise.
There's your proof.
It's not JUST gun control, but that's a part of the equation, a strong part. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/30/2008 8:44:42 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
I am a gun owner. I own two hand guns, six rifles and two shotguns. I also participate in three competitive shooting sports. Trap Shooting, Skeet Shooting and Cowboy Action Shooting. I need my guns for that purpose. In the house they are locked in a safe and unloaded. I am totally against banning guns. We have thr right to own them.
My weapons are for shooting sports only. I do not go hunting. I spent 24 years in the Army and I am very familiar with guns and gun safety. Gun control is actually almost a joke! That's not going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
So....as a gun owner I am against gun control.
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/30/2008 9:15:26 PM | Your numerous replies on here just tell me how little you know about this subject. The USA has lower violent crime rates per capita than Canada: And has for the last 9 years. In parts of the southern states, where people are allowed to carry concealed firearms, they have the lowest crime rates in North America. Think about it: are you going to try and commit a crime against someone who is potentially armed? I don't think so. As it turns out, crime rates have exploded since the implementation of bill C-68, our national gun registry. You say rid the world of guns? In Switzerland, every member of the population is conscripted to the army at age 18. After their training, they are all sent home with firearms, and ammunition. Yearly, they have national shooting competitions, where everyone uses a firearm. Virtually every home there has a gun in it, and they have THE lowest crime rates in the world. Why is this? Simple. Everyone is educated that a firearm is not a toy, and that when it is used for its intended purpose (target shooting, skeet ,trap, sporting clay, hunting) that it is a tool of fun, not a weapon. You can't just get rid of guns. In Great Britain and Australia they already tried to remove firearms from private citizens and the crime rates went up exponentially. 700% in Australia to be exact. If you know nobody is armed as a criminal, who are you afraid of? Now I'm not saying that everyone should be allowed to own an M-16 machine gun, but get rid of these black market guns and leave us poor innocent hunters and shooters alone. Pick on the criminals, not us! We aren't hurting anyone. It is these misconstrued ideas from uneducated people like you that are making it difficult for me to enjoy the shooting sports that I love so very much. They have registered handguns since 1949 and it hasn't done us any good now, has it? | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/30/2008 9:20:06 PM | Actually the pellet gun was Daddy's "toy". Anyone who has ever had children knows that you cannot keep your eyes on your kids 24/7. But I will admit, the parents have to take some responsibility for their child's actions........even if they are 15 or 16, and shoot up a whole school. It takes a community to raise a child, the community of the U.S. has been too lenient on the availability of guns.
The problem with guns, is that they can be dangerous in anyone's hands and at any time. So are automobiles, which is why this country has such stringent laws considering the use of them.
We do not live in the "Wild West" . Guns are not neccessary to our way of life. Our main food source is the neighborhood grocery store. Those of us that are law abiding citizens would not feel we need the protection of our own firearm, if it weren't so easy for the criminals to get ahold of them. And as for protecting ourselves against invading armies...that is what the Military is for. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 7:39:54 AM |
Your numerous replies on here just tell me how little you know about this subject.
Well, after that challenge , let's see - shall we ?
The USA has lower violent crime rates per capita than Canada: And has for the last 9 years.
message 843
A comparison of police-reported crime rates between Canada and the United States for 2000 shows that the U.S. has much higher rates of violent crime, while Canada generally has higher rates of property crime. Despite differences in rates, trends in crime between the two countries have been quite similar over the past twenty years.
In Canada, there were 542 homicides in 2000 resulting in a national rate of 1.8 homicides per 100,000 population. By comparison, there were 15,517 homicides in the U.S., resulting in a rate (5.5) three times higher than Canada’s
Similarly, the aggravated assault rate in the U.S. was more than double the Canadian rate in 2000. The U.S. also showed a higher rate of robbery (65% higher) than Canada. About 41% of robberies in the U.S. involved a firearm, compared to 16% in Canada.
Canada reported higher rates for three of the four comparable property offences. There were about 30% more break-ins and motor vehicle thefts per capita in Canada than the U.S. in 2000. While Canada has had a higher rate of break-ins since the early 1980s, the motor vehicle theft rate has only surpassed the American rate over the last five years. The arson rate in Canada was 40% higher than in the U.S., while the U.S. reported 11% more thefts per capita than Canada.
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:QQJUjdm8lCgJ:www.statcan.ca/ english/freepub/85-002-XIE/0110185-002-XIE.pdf+Canadian+vs+American +crime+statistics&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=ca
One down.....proven wrong. Let's continue, shall we ?
In parts of the southern states, where people are allowed to carry concealed firearms, they have the lowest crime rates in North America.
Let's look at a few, shall we ?
S.C. first in violent crime rate According to FBI, state’s small increase in 2006 was enough to top all states again
South Carolina’s violent crime rate again was higher than that of any other state in the nation in 2006 — and two of its smaller metro areas found themselves in the top five with some much larger cities, FBI statistics show.
South Carolina’s violent crime rate — 765 per 100,000 people — ticked up about 0.5 percent over 2005, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report for 2006. Nationwide, violent crimes were up nearly 2 percent.
Violent crimes include murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault.
New York's and Chicago's 2007 homicide totals were the lowest in more than 40 years, and in Philadelphia, slayings dipped slightly after reaching a nine-year high in 2006. But murders increased in several other big cities, including Atlanta, Miami and Dallas.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1699253,00.html?xid=feed-cnn-topics
New York and Chicago murder rates DROPPED ? Atlanta, Miami and Dallas INCREASED ?
Hmmm....
Think about it: are you going to try and commit a crime against someone who is potentially armed? I don't think so.
Seems like that concept isn't backed up by stats....
As it turns out, crime rates have exploded since the implementation of bill C-68, our national gun registry.
Really ? Let's check that out too ....
Canada's crime rate lowest in 25 years: StatsCan report
(2006)
Driven by a decline in non-violent felonies, Canada's crime rate reached a 25-year low in 2006, with every province and territory recording a drop, Statistics Canada said Wednesday.
The overall crime rate was 7,518 per 100,000 people, down three per cent from 2005.
However, the report also found that even though the overall rates decreased, those for more serious violent offences have remained steady from 2005. The rate of violent offences was 951 per 100,000 people in 2006, for a total of 310,307 countrywide
More people committed violent offences, such as attempted murder, aggravated assault, assault with a weapon, robbery, kidnapping and forcible confinement. But that was offset by a 10-per-cent drop in the national homicide rate, to 1.85 homicides per 100,000 people. Police reported a total of 605 homicides in 2006, 58 fewer than in 2005. In the preceding two years, the rate had climbed.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/07/18/crime-stats.html
2005 ?
2005
Canada's national crime rate, based on incidents reported to police, fell 5% last year — despite increases in serious crimes such as homicide, attempted murder, serious assaults and robbery.
Declines in non-violent offences such as counterfeiting, break-ins and auto thefts accounted for most of the decline in the crime rate, which fell in every province and territory.
The homicide rate increased 4% to the highest level in almost a decade. However, the overall violent crime rate was unchanged, while the property crime rate fell 6%. The rate of drug offences declined in 2005 as did overall youth crime.
The national crime rate has been relatively stable since 1999, with last year's 5% decrease offsetting a 6% hike in 2003. The crime rate declined during the 1990s, after rising throughout most of the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Crime rate down in all provinces, territories and most cities
Crime rates fell in all provinces and territories last year, with the largest provincial declines in Manitoba and New Brunswick, each down 8%.
Violent crime rates declined in the Atlantic provinces, but they were relatively stable in Central and Western Canada.
The highest provincial crime rates continued to be seen in the West. Saskatchewan recorded the highest overall rate, followed by British Columbia and Manitoba. Rates were lowest in Ontario and Quebec.
Virtually all 27 census metropolitan areas (CMAs) reported declining or stable crime rates. The only exceptions were small increases in London and Ottawa.
Again, the highest crime rates were in Western cities. However, Regina's crime rate declined 15% in 2005, dropping it behind Saskatoon for the highest crime rate among all 27 CMAs.
Abbotsford, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Victoria reported the next highest rates. Saguenay, Québec, Trois-Rivières and Sherbrooke recorded the lowest crime rates.
Property crime rate at lowest in over 30 years
The property crime rate fell 6% in 2005, the second consecutive decline. This put the rate at its lowest level in more than 30 years.
Police reported a total of 1.2 million property crimes. Among the most common were thefts, which accounted for more than half of all property crimes, as well as break-ins, motor vehicle theft and fraud.
The rate of break-ins, the third largest offence, fell 7%, continuing the downward trend seen since 1991. There were almost 260,000 break-ins reported to police, more than half of which were into residences.
All provinces and territories experienced fewer break-ins, except for a small 3% increase in Prince Edward Island. Saskatchewan continued to have the highest rate among the provinces, despite reporting a 14% drop in 2005.
Police reported more than 160,000 stolen vehicles last year. The rate of auto theft, which has been declining since 1996, fell a further 7% last year. But it was still 56% higher than two decades ago. Recent declines may be due to a combination of anti-theft devices in newer vehicle models, as well as police programs designed to reduce vehicle theft, such as the use of bait cars.
Auto thefts dropped in every province and territory, except in Alberta where the rate remained relatively stable. Manitoba continued to have the highest rate of auto theft in the country.
The rate of counterfeiting currency fell 20% last year, the first drop in five years. Despite the decrease in 2005, counterfeiting has been the fastest growing crime in recent years, increasing fivefold from 2000. The decline in 2005 may have been due partly to the introduction of security-enhanced $10 and $20 bills in 2004 and 2005.
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060720/d060720b.htm
Overall the national crime rate was 3982 crimes per 100,000 residents, down 17.6% from 4852 crimes per 100,000 residents thirty years earlier in 1974.The severity of crime in international comparison depends on the nature of the crimes considered in such comparison. For example, while the homicide and violent crime rates of the United States were much higher than those of Canada, property crime rates in the US were considerably lower. The overall crime rate in the United States is similar to that of other highly developed countries such as Canada. Additionally there tend to be great regional differences within the US with New England having a violent crime and homicide rate comparable to that of most other developed nations, while southern states were among the most violent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
United States
Compared to the United States, Statistics Canada data have consistently demonstrated a substantially lower rate of violent crime, but similar rates of property crime. For example, in 2000 the United States' rate for robberies was 65% higher, its rate for aggravated assault was double the Canadian rate, and its murder rate was triple.
Comparing this with data from the U.S Department of Justice, in recent years the gap between in crime rates between the United States and Canada has been narrowing: crime rates in the US have declined faster than those in Canada. The current US murder rate is 2.5 times that of Canada per capita, down from about four times as high during the 1980s, the primary reason for this has been a drastic drop in US homicide rates with roughly steady Canadian rates. Approximately 70% of the total murders in the US are committed with firearms, vs. about 30% in Canada.
[edit] Other countries (comparisons)
Canada's crime rate is close to the averages in Western Europe or Australia but with differences. Property crime is lower than in some nations (e.g., United Kingdom, Sweden), and significantly lower than Australia but higher than in others (e.g., Spain, France). The violent crime rate (i.e., murder, weapons offenses and rape) is higher than most western European nations, in some cases more than double and in the case of rapes, Canada has the 5th highest number of rapes per capita of any country, roughly 10x as many as the EU average. It should be noted that reporting techniques differ which can affect proper data comparisons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada
So unarmed Canadians, with NO RTC laws, have less violent crime than Americans. Again, demographics and gun control together work to accomplish this. That's the most effective way to reduce crime - before it starts.
You say rid the world of guns?
No. Control them. That's what gun control means.
In Switzerland, every member of the population is conscripted to the army at age 18. After their training, they are all sent home with firearms, and ammunition. Yearly, they have national shooting competitions, where everyone uses a firearm. Virtually every home there has a gun in it, and they have THE lowest crime rates in the world.
So far, so good.
Why is this? Simple. Everyone is educated that a firearm is not a toy, and that when it is used for its intended purpose (target shooting, skeet ,trap, sporting clay, hunting) that it is a tool of fun, not a weapon.
Well, that helps greatly.
Those guns are also controlled, and registered.
How many ghettos are their in Switzerland ? What's the standard of living ? How well educated are people ? How much unemployment is there ? How much poverty ?
I think we all can safely say that these are critical factors , and Switzerland properly leads the way in all of them compared to many other places in the world.
Hence the difference.
You can't just get rid of guns.
Again, never said that was necessary.
In Great Britain and Australia they already tried to remove firearms from private citizens and the crime rates went up exponentially. 700% in Australia to be exact.
As for Australia, that's been already proved wrong. See Msg: 905
Let's look at Great Britain, to end our tour.
There, you are right. There has been an increase.
Despite a ban on handguns introduced in 1997 after 16 children and their teacher were shot dead in the Dunblane massacre the previous year, their use in crimes has almost doubled to reach 4,671 in 2005-06. Official figures show that although Britain has some of the toughest anti-gun laws in the world, firearm use in crime has risen steadily. This year eight young people have been killed in gun attacks: six in London and one each in Manchester and Liverpool.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2317307.ece
I'd suggest looking at demographic factors like education and poverty rates as the reason for such increases. Controlling those factors decreases the chance of crime far more than having a gun does.
We can see that this is the case in not only every country we see, but comparing various US states against one another.
The more poor , desperate , and uneducated people you have - the greater the chance of crime - both for the victim and the perpetrator. Work on those , and control access to firearms - and it's a win/win proposition. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 8:22:15 AM | This guy, is .. Playing you people, .. Right down to his ... phoney "virgin" profile.
Yeah, well, it's still an issue. We spend a lot of tax dollars in schools teaching kids about how to drive responsibly, even though driving is not a right. Yes, it is a necessary skill, but since people have a Constitutional right to bear arms, doing so responsibly is also a necessary skill.
There are two types of gun control. There's the type that says that the guns should be under the control of the government. However, if you do it that way then the people have no means of protecting themselves against a govenment gone bad. The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to remind everyone that without the consent of the people, a government has no legitimacy.
The "gun control" advocates lose me when they choose to ignore the potential danger of tyranny over an unarmed populace.
The second type of gun control is providing people with the information and training that allows them to control their own use of guns. The "2nd Amendment rights" people lose me when they fail to advocate for universal gun safety training. Many of these people are also against any expenditure of tax dollars.
The fact that people don't know what they're doing when they handle, store, or fire guns leads to a lot of preventable crime, needless injuries, and senseless deaths. I'd be willing to bet that we spend more tax dollars on the consequences of gun incompetence than the training would cost. But even if not, we'd all be better off if people understood how guns work and why it is so important to handle them with care.
Those things are DANGEROUS! | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 8:48:05 AM | | The Second Amendment is about a milita, which when written was all able bodied men 18-45. The NRA likes to edit the Amendment. However, since the Bill of Rights do not say an individual can not have a fire arm for use other then a milita, I believe it becomes a state issue, like it pretty much is. So, it's up to the elected officals in your state to have control or not. IMO there needs to be some restrictions on who can have a weapon and the type...just by common sense. But saying you need a .50 cal machine gun just incase the government trys to take over is a bit nutty. Hence the National Guard, it answers to the Governor. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 8:52:38 AM | When or if the current gun laws are thoroughly enforced and found to be wanting......then we should sit down and discuss whether more laws are needed.
In the meantime....enforce the existing laws first. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 9:33:39 AM |
Hence the National Guard, it answers to the Governor.
Not in the case of national emergency. The President can co-opt the National Guard at any time.
It wasn't regular Army who fired live rounds on the students at Kent State. Those idiots were Guardsmen. Pardon me if I don't put much faith in them when it comes to protecting citizens. (Actually, I don't think you could get regular US troops to fire on citizens. They're too well trained.)
Although the 2nd Amendment itself isn't as clearly written as one would like, it's pretty clear what the intention of the Founding Fathers was.
Speaking of the National Guard--which is a very odd name for a State Militia now that you mention it--have there been any changes in policy, procedures, training, and rules of engagement to prevent another disgusting episode like Kent State? Anyone in the Guard care to respond? Or, should I continue to pray that if things get screwy we get regular Army instead of you?
Sorry, I really would prefer to trust the intention, competence, and character of Guardsmen. However, I don't recall seeing the Guard step up to take stock of Kent State in any public way. Have they done _anything_ to correct the problems that allowed protesting citizens to be fired upon? Or should every house be stocked with Kevlar vests and helmets?
No, there's probably no need for an anti-tank weapon in every house. Still, I wonder how things might have gone in Germany in the 1930s and '40s if there had been more guns in the hands of Jewish citizens. The ultimate check and balance against government tyranny is an armed and competent populace. I think that's what the Founders meant by a "well-regulated militia."
Isn't there a gun control case coming up on the Supreme Court docket this year? | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 10:27:25 AM | Actually I am a SGT in the New Jersey National Guard! In a case of national emergency the President can request troops to be Federalized. A Governor can say no, but almost never has. The power to say no was taken away recently, but just given back after a heated debate over state's rights. It's the National Guard, because some of the money for equipment and training comes from the Federal government in exchange for use of the troops when needed. Some states still have a true milita of unpaid civilians for emergency
No one would debate that Kent State was a disaster. However, it was the Ohio Governor that sent the troops in, not Nixon. The troops then were given live ammo and not trained for riots. I can't say if units are better trained today for that or not. But saying regular Army would have acted any different is just guessing. A little info on the Guard. 50% are prior service...like myself, 8 years in the Marines. Average age is 35, verse about 22 in the regular Army. In 2005 almsot 50% of the troops in Iraq were National Guardsmen. The 42nd Infantry Division, NJ/NY National Guard had contol of the Baghdad area with regular Army underneath it. I just returned in June from a 2 year deployement, 16 months in Iraq with the 34 BCT out of MN. We did more time in country then any active duty unit ever did. Most of us doing convoy protection, the most dangerous job there. Sorry to rant, but I don't want what a few idiots did 40 years ago lead to mistrust of the citizen/soldiers of today. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 10:57:14 AM | Hey Catch!
First of all, thank you for your service. Whether or not a person agrees with the decision to send you to Iraq, we all owe you a debt of gratitude for going.
I don't want the actions of those idiots to taint the reputation of citizen soldiers either. I want to feel reassured that their loyalty to the Constitution and the citizens is unquestionable. I would much prefer to have complete faith in the Guard.
Unfortunately, once something like that has been done, it's been done. The only way to rehabilitate the reputation of the Guard, in my view, is for the Guard to show what concrete steps it has taken to ensure that nothing like that ever happens again. It might take several repetitions before the message sinks in. But so far, what I've heard amounts to, "gee, that was too bad. It was the governor's fault. We were just following orders."
If, as an insider, you don't know what they've done to ensure that Guardsmen and commanders within the Guard understand that it is never OK to kill citizens and that they have an obligation to refuse any illegal order to do so, I can't help that.
As an outsider, I certainly haven't seen or heard anything that would lead me to believe a Guard unit would refuse to carry out such an order even now. Given that state of affairs, I think it is a very good idea for the government to remain unaware of the exact whereabouts of all the guns--just to keep everyone a bit more honest and circumpect when a governor or some other official gets riled up. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 11:38:12 AM | | All I can say is I would never follow an unlawful order, I am sure neither would any of my troops. However, troops have been put in situations that are very stressful. Firing on unarmed students is one thing, but being asked to defend life and property in a armed riot situation is different. If you have every read the oath you take in the military, it state's you will defend the Constitution from all enemies, FOREIGN and DOMESTIC. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 11:49:24 AM | The Second Amendment is about a milita, which when written was all able bodied men 18-45. The NRA likes to edit the Amendment.
The NRA feels the operative clause is being misrepresented by those who edit the 2nd amendment by only using the justification clause to further their belief.
The establishment of the National Guard does NOT usurp the 2nd Amendment in any way...it only enhances the OPERATIVE clause of the 2nd amendment, which states "the right of the people to keep & bear arms shall NOT be infringed."
The justification clause being"a well regulated militia" is enhanced by the formation of the National Guard, being armed & funded by the states & federal government. THAT IN ITSELF flies in the face of the operative clause, which contains the very important word PEOPLE.
Other examples in that same Bill of Rights:
The right of the PEOPLE to petition the government The right of the PEOPLE to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms
The justification clause of the 2nd amendment could not be rendered obsolete by the establishment of the National Guard, because Congress has had no constitutional obligation, for instance, to properly train a militia, or to demand that it be armed.
Most importantly, doing so doesnt automatically "repeal" any part of the 2nd Amendment.
Further, the Militia Act of 1903 contains a key controversial provision, which struck down the written item "requiring all able-bodied adult white male citizens from 18 to 45 to arm themselves".
That is in direct contradiction to the definition of the word PEOPLE as referred to by the framers. PEOPLE arent white dudes from 18 to 45...PEOPLE are the PEOPLE.
If NOT for the Militia Act iof 1903, it would still be a REQUIREMENT to arm yourself, rather than it being a right. Also, only white males from 18 to 45 were REQUIRED to be armed. EVERYBODY ELSE had the OPTION to arm themselves. That is where people mis-read the intent of the meaning of the word "MILITIA" & believe it is exclusive as far as gun ownership.
In essence, the Militia Act of 1903 actually ENHANCED the operative clause of the 2nd Amendment - the individual right of the PEOPLE to keep & bear arms. ..militia or no militia, nor age, race & sex. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 12:12:29 PM | That is the basis of several arguements about the Bill of Rights...some take it as verbatim, others try to interpret the meaning of it.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." is the Amendment. Now since none of us were alive then to ask the framers to please explain the meaning, we can either follow the words, or guess at the meaning. I follow the words.
What the Militia Act of 1903 (Dick Act) did was form the militas into the same standard as the Army. It also see 'drill' times and pay for the militia men.
Now, I'm not saying take away guns, except for the NG. What I read from this is they are the only group that has a Federal right to have guns. Since it does not state others can not, I leave that up to the each state. If my state says no guns, and yours does..guess I need to move then. It's part of the beauty of this country | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 12:22:39 PM | | Self defense is a natural right which predates any law and supercedes any law against it. Self defense by any means necessary and against any and all force arrayed against you is your right and your responsibility. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 12:31:07 PM |
Self defense is a natural right which predates any law and supercedes any law against it. Self defense by any means necessary and against any and all force arrayed against you is your right and your responsibility.
This is the same principal that motivates terrorists and by which they justify their actions.
The US has gun control, the constitutional argument is already qualified and quantified in the fact that there are "arms" that are not legal for civilians to own = Fact. If you really want to "know" one aspect of what was intended by the "framers", do realize that what they had for "arms" then, is not what is available now.
Single-shot muskets?
yeah, I can see that. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 12:33:08 PM |
Firing on unarmed students is one thing, but being asked to defend life and property in a armed riot situation is different.
True enough. However, in a situation like that, there are all sorts of nonlethal tactics that could be used. Where is the doctine that specifies those tactics and when it's time to switch?
If you have every read the oath you take in the military, it state's you will defend the Constitution from all enemies, FOREIGN and DOMESTIC.
For my money, a governor or president who's hell-bent on abrogating the rights of citizens or the consitutional protections for those rights could well be an enemy of the Constitution, while a populace rioting to force the restoration of those guarantees could well be its upholders.
When you have a gun in your hand, it is up to you to make the right choice. "Just following orders" just doesn't cut it, as I think you'd agree--especially when there's civlian in your sights.
To get back on topic: Having guns freely available without universal training and education in their safe use strikes me as the worst of both worlds. Gun-related crimes are directly correlated with the availability of guns. Disputes that would otherwise be resolved with far less injury can lead to gun violence when guns are around. When guns aren't, family members and neighbors are much safer.
However, the only thing worse than a potentially voilent neighbor or family member is a potentially violent government. The price we pay for our freedom is an increased risk of gun-related crimes and mishaps. Is it worth it?
As long as governments are capable of indefinite detentions, extraordinary rendition, water-boarding, wholesale surveillance, and so on, it just might be. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 1/31/2008 3:44:23 PM | However, the only thing worse than a potentially voilent neighbor or family member is a potentially violent government. The price we pay for our freedom is an increased risk of gun-related crimes and mishaps. Is it worth it?
As long as governments are capable of indefinite detentions, extraordinary rendition, water-boarding, wholesale surveillance, and so on, it just might be.
And as long as they can assume that power without anyone objecting, quietly in the middle of the night like a thief, then having a gun means little.
By the time you realize it, it's too late to act.
Ballots, not bullets, are the solution to that problem.
Otherwise you'll be much like the Branch Davidians when that day comes. Branded as the enemy, and out gunned by orders of magnitude by those that you let take over the country. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 2/3/2008 1:33:34 AM | all in all , it will only make things harder for the honest people, u think little jimmy is going to jump through all the legal hoops to get a firearm to commit a crime, hell no, they are on the streets and always will be, all these rules jus tmake it harder for the honest person,
i had two theories thrown at me one time by someone "two ways crime could go down, ban it all and somehow get rid of every single firearm legal or illegal and they will turn to knives, or give EVERYONE a firearm and u will see the crime rate go down too, cause who will try to mug someone now that everyone is armed. kinda equals the playing feild" | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 2/3/2008 1:41:23 AM |
i had two theories thrown at me one time by someone "two ways crime could go down, ban it all and somehow get rid of every single firearm legal or illegal and they will turn to knives, or give EVERYONE a firearm and u will see the crime rate go down too, cause who will try to mug someone now that everyone is armed. kinda equals the playing feild"
Thats what is called a false dichotomy. | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 2/3/2008 2:52:04 AM |
i had two theories thrown at me one time by someone "two ways crime could go down, ban it all and somehow get rid of every single firearm legal or illegal and they will turn to knives, or give EVERYONE a firearm and u will see the crime rate go down too, cause who will try to mug someone now that everyone is armed. kinda equals the playing feild"
The first time I heard this hypothesis put forward I thought of the fun I could have with a string of firecrackers in a nation of people who all had firearms. And whose knowledge of them consisted mostly of which end the 'bang' comes out of.  | |
|
| gun control in the usa Posted: 2/3/2008 3:09:41 AM | Huisatcheman(d795023) on 8/6/2005 2 51 PM Subject: gun control in the usa Message: WEll, how bout this. What's next? Get rid of kichen knives, or all knives in general. Get rid of bows and arrows. How about bombs,,hell, we can't even find them. Baseball bats make lethal weapons. Chemicals kill a lot of things. Food contamination can kill. Do we ban all these things? No, I vote we keep the guns for protection againest the millions who have them stashed and will never report ownership. Gun control is a farce, designed only to take away guns from law-abiding, decent citizens. The criminal elements are laughing their asses off about this great idea to boost their crimes. Sure, let's just disarm the law abiding citizens and the gutsy millions who support the NRA, and see what happens. Get a fukin brain!
See, this is the usual tact gun advocates use. The take a person's stance on gun control and twist it to sound like an attempt to ban guns, the OP didn't not say anything about banning guns. He/she simply said there should be some restrictions on number of guns, what is takes to buy or own a gun, etc. The NRA and other groups play on the fears and paranoia of law abiding gun owners, that vast majority of GUN CONTROL advocates don't think we need to ban guns. What we do believe in is you shouldn't be able to walk into a Walmart and walk out with a brand new gun just like you could a TV. We also realize that criminals will always be able to get guns, but ya know what, if there is another law they have violated that is one more law we can convict them on. Say a guy get busted for murder, the DA can't get a conviction for murder. But the was in possession of a gun illegally and there are 3 different laws violated with 5 years each, now atleast the DA can send him to jail on those charges and he does some time atleast. | |
|
|
| Page 37 of 93
|
23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63 |
|