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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/3/2008 6:42:20 AM | | People are very sensitive about the topic on guns. In reality most people make uneducated opinions about guns. Politicians try to connect up standing citizens who legally own guns with the gangs for a political smoke screen to say we are doing something about gun control and we care about the innocent victims that were killed in the drive by. The problem is most murders caused by guns are illegal to begin with. The guns were never registered in the first place. Therefore, the guns are not the problem; it is with people who have criminal intent. A person with criminal intent can always find another method to achieve their purpose. The old saying, “ There is more than one way to skin a cat”. Therefore, a ban on handguns will not solve a thing. Reason being an individual with about a grade 10 education can successfully make there own gun. These homemade guns are known as ZIP guns. You can order the plans through the website www.thehomegunsmith.com. If any of you are actually interested in looking up this web site I suggest you go to the heading educate on the web page and read the approx. 8 page report which has actual data. Now if anyone remembers back to highschool science you might remember the ingredient to making gunpowder. That is 75% saltpeter, 15% charcoal and 10% sulfur. The way gunpowder actual works is you ignite the sulfur first which burns to ignite the charcoal and that in turn burns the saltpeter. The saltpeter is what gains the higher temperature, which in return achieves the higher pressure to push the bullet out of the barrel. A lower grade of gunpowder is to substitute iron for the saltpeter. Now if you where to take the gunpowder and confine it in a small space you just created a grenade. A new problem in the US is the tennis ball grenade. This is where you take the sulfur from the matches and fill a tennis ball with them. You also add ball bearings or lead shot as well. Seal the slice in the tennis ball with duct tape. Now you just created a tennis ball grenade, which has enough force to blow your car window out. You can read an article which I found on the website http://ponetwork.com/Safety?grenades.htm/. I suggest you read the article to further educate yourself as well. Now the problem with a ZIP gun in my opinion is that forensic has less information to work with. What I mean is that every gun leaves marks on a bullet, which is caused, by the land and groves of a gun. Land and groves of a barrel is what makes the bullet spiral to achieve a longer and more accurate shot. Now a Zip gun will probably not leave those marks. For example a simple Zip gun can be made with the simple male brass fitting of your propane regulator for the barbecue. The hole if large enough will hold a .22 shell. Fits in snuggle. All you need is a pair of vice grips and a hammer. Clamp the vise grips around the brass pipe and smack the end of the shell with the hammer. You just made a zip gun. So if you have a band on all handguns are you going to ban barbecues as well? Next if a person believes that the gangs will not have the intelligence to create their own zip gun think again. For those who cannot make their own they will purchase their own. With the scarce of handguns will create a new underground market. The price of handguns will go up causing the illegal supply of weapons to go up for the simple reason the risk is now worth the reward dictated by simple economics. Also a new problem will be achieved which will be a new market for zip guns. Therefore in my opinion nothing will be gained by a total ban of guns. My recommendation on the gun issue is to enforce and let the legal gun owners who usually obey most laws to continue to own their guns instead of pushing some of them to the other side of the law to acquire their guns. On the same token I am not suggesting that we take the position of Miami where you can legally where a gun on your side in public. That is just asking for trouble. But if an individual were allowed to own a gun and properly store it that would minimize accidents or the chance of 2nd degree manslaughter in a heated moment. If the individual only fires his weapon at target ranges and when they go hunting will reinforce the mindset of guns and safety. You will also keep some of the legal gun owners from crossing the line to the underground therefore keeping them on the side of the law. If gun manufactures could design a gun where every single gun would leave a unique mark on the bullet would give forensic more information to work with. What I suggest here is for a manufacture to keep a data bank with specification on each barrel to allow forensic to know exactly what gun a bullet came from. Not just knowing caliber but the actual serial number of that gun. Like a finger print for each gun. It could simple be made with groves in the bullet like the blind reads with dots. The answer to lower gun related violence is by enforcement and education on gun safety and proper storage. Allowing a legal gun owner his space to go target practicing, hunting and once in awhile to touch his gun while cleaning is like giving a junkie a fix. You keep the legal gun owners on the side of the law! Is that not what the general public wants? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/3/2008 6:56:05 AM | "And as long as they can assume that power without anyone objecting, quietly in the middle of the night like a thief, then having a gun means little.
By the time you realize it, it's too late to act.
Ballots, not bullets, are the solution to that problem.
Otherwise you'll be much like the Branch Davidians when that day comes. Branded as the enemy, and out gunned by orders of magnitude by those that you let take over the country"
Montreal Guy that is the smartest post I have read on this topic so far.
The problem is our Country and Governmental Control is run by the Media and who do you think runs the Media? Ah Yes..... The Government!
So we get only the mis-informatin they want us to get.
They are running this now, not the people anymore, don't you get that?
The Masses believe the Media!
Period!
They believe it! Without question!
So you see my friend, I can't vote sheeeit into office!
The masses do, and they are being led around by the nose like sheep to the slaughter!
So I will keep my firearm to protect myself without a doubt, thank you very much!
I have been the victim of violent crime and never again will that happen to me or mine.
You come in my house with intent to harm and I will empty my gun in you.
I raised my girls in the same manner, to respect guns and what they are used for.
It is my right as a human being to protect myself and I will fight for that right with my dying breath.
Changing the laws will not keep more guns out of peoples hands.
It will simply just push it underground and make the price go up.
Like it was said earlier......
the MORE likely I am to have a gun on me, the LESS likely you are to ROB me!
TC
Deb | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/3/2008 2:07:07 PM | I'm sorry, but gun ban nuts are simply that...nuts. Any moron can take a lead pipe, slap a shotgun shell fulla buckshot in one end, make an end cap with a lil hole in the center. rig up a rubber-band firing pin and totally hose up your weekend with it...they called those "Zip guns" back in the 70's-early 80's.
heck, give some epoxy and a couple of days and I can make nice derringers with it. Bottom line...you can ban all the guns you want...but any high school shop student can slap together usefull weapons in a matter of minutes to days depending on how complex you want it. Take that to the next level...if all guns are banned and SOMEHOW all 14 billion guns registered in america LEGALLY are confiscated...then SOMEHOW they get the other 22 billion ILLEGAL firearms out there...people are STILL going to MAKE GUNS. The fomula for blackpowder is EASY to do...smokeless powder is more difficult, but easier to make than most illegal drugs...
Bottom line...bans will never work...the honest citizens obey rules until backed into a corner, criminals do not obey rules AT ALL...and will back the citizens into making homemade guns for protection and then what do you have?? Lawlessness all around and we STILL don't have near enough cops to handle it.
At leasst the "Death Wish" types like Joe Horn are out there putting a dent in the crime stats...all it takes is one or two of those in each city and crime stats drop rapidly...and lets face it, regular people hate crime...and have little pity on those who commit it. Wanna see crime levels drop to all new lows??? Actually USE the Death Penalty!!! not wait twenty years to fry some bleephole like Ted Bundy who shoulda been cooked 5 minutes after his trial. Justice should be swift and certain. Emphasis on Swift. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/3/2008 3:00:41 PM | Gun control doesn't mean banning guns, nor is it the first step to it.
All it means is making sure that the wrong people don't get them. You can't ever make that system 100 percent effective, no matter how much you try to. You can make it better.
For those that think this will somehow allow the government to know who has guns, I'd suggest a little more thought here. You already are listed, somewhere. You are on a sales slip for the firearm, or for it's ammo, a member of a gun club or the NRA, or posting here about how many weapons you have. 
The government doesn't NEED a registry to know who has a gun. As I've said, all they have to do is hit the NRA record base, today, and the game's over. With current security rules, they could do that quite easily - and you'd never even know. The NRA couldn't even tell you, by legal order.
As for a mass revolt against the government, one thing must be remembered. Long before that moment, the government can do ONE thing that pretty much eliminates it as a threat.
Close every ammunition store, and confiscate the ammo in them.
Overnight, your firearm just became a .....club. 
Whatever few rounds you have in the house, and those few people who load their own ammo (and gunpowder can be restricted overnight like ammo) , better make sure they don't miss.
So , given all those things, gun control (and not gun bans) are the best way to go . They seem to work well in other countries, and none has fallen to dictators yet - nor been overrun by criminals. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/3/2008 4:23:41 PM | Whatever few rounds you have in the house.
Not to break your bubble but most people with guns have more than a few rounds. First of all you usually purchase .22 calibures in bulk which means 500 rounds to one box. Secondly, guns are over a billion dollar business. Not sure the exact figure in Canada alone. People who load there own ammo purchase in bulk. If not it is not cost effective to load your own ammo. Gun powder is easily made. All you need for a bullet is a mold. Pb is easy to get. Some people with muzzle loaders make there own Pb balls. Brass cassings can be reloaded up to five times.
Gun control doesn't mean banning guns, nor is it the first step to it.
Gun control is the first step in banning guns. First the government makes an attempt in getting gun owners to register there guns. Then they know exactly who has them. Next they move the line to ban one type of weapon or to restrict another. This usually happens after someone gets killed by a gun whether it is a drive by or a vengeful person on a rampage. No different than the Toronto shooting when the Mayor of Toronto stated a total ban on handguns. That is what was stated in most of the headlines. Just like when the collalition for guns was started in approx. 1990 with the montreal shooting. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/3/2008 5:33:00 PM | We had gun control before the Ecole Polytechnique massacre.
Hand guns have been heavily restricted for years - but even I could still get one if I wanted one, had the money, and took the training courses.
"Basically, all handguns in Canada are illegal now. The only people who get permits are those who are using them for recreational purposes or those who need it for their own personal safety, and there's not a lot of those that are granted," said Comartin.
New Democrat MP Joe Comartin
That's a statement from a far left justice critic. It's , as he says, smoke and mirrors.
Since 1934, anyone wanting to own a pistol in Canada has had to be registered with the RCMP or the federal gun registry. The application process is long and arduous. The fact that almost no registered handgun owner ever commits murder or other forms of violent crime in Canada (one of the recent Toronto shootings being a noteworthy exception) is a testament to the thoroughness of the background checks.
On top of that, since the early 1990s, Canada's 500,000 or so handgun owners have had to have police approval to move their guns from their homes, and even then may only move them under the strictest of conditions. Typically, owners must lock their guns in a tamper-resistant case, which must further be locked in the trunks of their cars. Then they must drive directly from their homes to an approved shooting range and back, making no stops along the way -- even for gas or a restroom break.
In 2006, handguns accounted for 108, or over half, of the 190 victims killed by a firearm.
http://www.statscan.ca/Daily/English/071017/d071017b.htm
One hundred and eight deaths due to handguns, in a country of over thirty three million people. That's pretty exceptional , in my books. People die in far greater numbers from other reasons here, without the outrage.
I've got a far greater chance to win the lottery here, than I have to be shot by someone I don't know - and even more so if that person is a stranger committing a crime against me.
I'd say the great number of those deaths were criminals shooting each other, domestic violence, or suicides.
The success of our gun laws leads to outrage when a person is shot by a criminal - because it's so exceedingly rare. It's headline news, across the country. It's natural that politicians will use such things to try and garner votes, but that's no indication of it's real value as a problem in our society.
Not to break your bubble but most people with guns have more than a few rounds. First of all you usually purchase .22 calibures in bulk which means 500 rounds to one box.
And how many shots are you going to need fighting against the government ? You'll be facing greater firepower, and unlimited resources on their side. Modern combat today, against a Western military unit , is going to take a lot of firepower for each fatality/wounding it inflicts.
Remember, they'll have armored vehicles, and be wearing the best ballistic protection.
You won't be enjoying any of those benefits.
I liked the movie "Red Dawn" too, don't get me wrong. That's fiction.
If people won't get off the couch and get involved in the current political process - they certainly won't be rushing out to face armed men with a license to kill and arrest them. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/3/2008 6:04:30 PM | First of all I wrote the challenge test for a PAL license and recieved a 96% mark. I also have been associated with gun dealers and been involved with hunting groups since 1984. So my knowledge of guns even before going to post secondary has been intensive. It has only been recently that I have been reading up on actual facts of gun related deaths. Each time someone gets killed by a gun the polititions make it a huge outcry to ban all guns or we need stricter gun control. Even if the gun was illegal to begin with. As of today the following punishment for manslaughter is as followed:
manslaughter has not minimium time but the average is 5.5 years
2nd degree manslaughter is 10 to 20 years with parole average is 12.5 years and parole
1st degree manslaughter is 25 years with out parole average is 25 years.
Now tac on the possibility of 5 years for illegally owning a gun.
Even with this it still does not seem to deter the shootings that happen in Toronto. So what would be gained by stricter gun control laws?
And how many shots are you going to need fighting against the government ? You'll be facing greater firepower, and unlimited resources on their side. Modern combat today, against a Western military unit , is going to take a lot of firepower for each fatality/wounding it inflicts
The government are just elected people. You do not fight like rambo but at election time. The best way to fight back is to voice your educated opinions and hope someone hears it. How do you think the gun collition has done for years or MADD. Is that not what our represenative are for. Why not write to your local MP or mayor. That is what they are being paid for. As far as quoting ammo was just to show you that ammo is very easy to come by. That the street gangs or people with criminal intent can always get ammo. My main issue is when the government illudes people that they are doing something about gun violence by stripping the legal gun owners of theirs. To me this is a smoke screen. How on earth do you lessen gun violence by going after legal gun owners? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/3/2008 6:19:33 PM | | black market guns will always a problem. weapons that are stolen and then resold. i own several firearms and have a permit to carry a weapon. i have been a gun owner and hunter since i was 10 . if you eliminate guns to law abiding citizens, only criminals will have guns. look at what happened in new orleans after hurricane katrina. the police asked for all gun owners to surrender their weapons. several people were killed by looters defending their homes without the weapon they surrendered. a friend sent me an e-mail about a recent gun control law in australia. armed robbery and murder jumped 25% in six months. always remember, guns don't kill people, people kill poeple. and if its gang related, let them kill each other. dont put gangs in the same catagory as responsible owners. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/4/2008 7:54:25 AM | NYC,Chicago and Washington DC all have gun laws that are almost Draconian in scale and scope.
They all suffer serious levels of gun crime.
Laws proscribing ANYTHING are of limited value.
Just because you make something illegal doesn't mean people are going to stop doing it.
See:Drug Laws | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/4/2008 8:14:56 AM |
NYC,Chicago and Washington DC all have gun laws that are almost Draconian in scale and scope.
In a country that has a lot of unregulated firearms, and has for a long time. Some areas are stringent, and some aren't - even today.
It's only natural that guns will flow from one area to another, based on profits.
Even in Canada, I'd say most of the "problem" guns come from the USA into our market.
Gun control in a country, that's unevenly applied, won't ever work. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/4/2008 9:59:50 AM |
Even in Canada, I'd say most of the "problem" guns come from the USA into our market.
Not sure about that, sports fan.
But I do know Canada has harsh laws against handgun ownership...
And yet there are still handgun-related crimes.
And I'm not quite sure how handguns could be "regulated" more than they already are...short of an outright ban.
Which would be expensive,unenforceable and largely useless.
Again...w/o societal changes...laws exist only to regulate honest people. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/4/2008 12:31:22 PM | We don't agree on much in these forums, but, I agree completely with you on this:
I'm not quite sure how handguns could be "regulated" more than they already are...short of an outright ban. Which would be expensive,unenforceable and largely useless.
Shining example of that very statement is New York City, and Washington, DC. Both have near outright bans on handguns. Yet, they have very high handgun crime rates. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/4/2008 3:04:20 PM |
Not sure about that, sports fan.
Well, logically it would make more sense. Since Canadian handguns are strictly registered, stolen ones in this country could be tracked fairly easily.
We do have common gangs on both sides of the border that are probably a part of the problem.
Exactly how many guns enter Canada and the various ways they are smuggled in is almost impossible to trace, said Montreal journalist and author Julian Sher, who is currently writing a second book on the Hells Angels in Canada.
He said organizations like the Hells have always been linked to gun-smuggling throughout North America and Europe.
"Almost every single time the police do a raid on a Hells Angels clubhouse, which we just saw last week in British Columbia, they find illegal guns," Sher said.
On a recent fact-finding trip accompanying native smugglers on the Akwesasne Mohawk reserve, which straddles the Ontario, Quebec, and U.S. borders, Sher said his hosts boasted about "the huge amount of guns" they had brought into Canada.
ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1122552734330_117961934/?hub=Canada
Part of it is our problem with our justice system not throwing the book at people they do catch.
The spate of gun violence demonstrates a need for stricter sentences to those committing gun-related crimes, said Toronto police Chief Bill Blair.
"One of the things we've always been frustrated about is the relatively low sentences that gunmen receive, and then when they are sentenced, that they aren't serving a significant portion of that sentence," he said.
People who are caught trying to smuggle guns past border crossings across Canada are also getting off easy, said Wendy Cukier, a professor of justice studies professor at Ryerson University in Toronto and president of the Coalition for Gun Control.
In Nova Scotia last year, a Massachusetts man was caught bringing a gun into Canada, but was given an absolute discharge on all four federal and provincial firearms charges.
- Ibid
Given our attitude on firearms, that's unacceptable and totally our own fault. I guess our justice systems share more than a few things.
While guns purchased in Canada that are later stolen from their owners comprise a major source for the illegal trade, the coalition says smuggled guns account for more than half the handguns recovered by police that are used to commit crimes in Canada.
"Pointing to the obvious problem of U.S. guns coming into Canada has sort of been the invisible elephant that nobody's been prepared to address," Cukier said.
Keys said guns purchased in the U.S. for $200 can easily earn $500 in Toronto, while newer and higher-quality handguns can fetch upwards of $2,000.
_ Ibid
That figure of 50 percent has been thrown around by our politicians and some gun control groups before. Our former Prime Minister even used it.
Canadian police seized almost 40 deadly weapons, including an AK-47, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash late last week in what police are calling the biggest gang raid ever in the country. The raid took place on an Indian reservation outside of Toronto, only a few hours from the U.S. border.
According to authorities, the guns came from Houston, Texas in what they call a cross-border gun pipeline. Last year border officials seized 180 guns, but it's estimated that over $1 billion of contraband, including guns and drugs, are smuggled across the border through these reservations every year. The result has been an increase in violent crime, particularly gang warfare, in major cities like Toronto and Montreal.
Guns and drugs aren't the only American imports to Canada. The gang that was raided, the Jamestown Crew, is affiliated with the well-known American Crips street gang. And like their American counterparts, members participate in hip-hop street DVDs glorifying gang violence.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/05/illegal_gun_pip.html
U.S. guns may have been sold to gangs
Matthew Ramsey , The Province
Published: Sunday, October 30, 2005
A Washington State man accused of gun smuggling may have run as many as 500 weapons into B.C., where they were sold to marijuana grow-operators and outlaw biker gangs.
Jason Smith -- a resident of Stanwood, about an hour and 45 minutes south of Vancouver -- was indicted Wednesday.
He is charged with conspiracy, dealing firearms without a licence and possession of a Uzi machine-gun.
ttp://www.canada.com/reddeer/story.html?
id=61af1fda-4e2e-448d-93af-91f2af382f96
While a Toronto man sits in a Pennsylvania jail facing up to 75 years in prison for gun dealing, police here are probing how many of the 14 guns he allegedly acquired turned up in the GTA and into whose hands they fell.
Two of the guns have been recovered in Canada, including a Taurus revolver and a Bersa .380 pistol that was found last year at the scene of a gang shooting in Toronto, although there's no evidence the pistol was used, a police source said.
Police estimate that type of firearm would be worth up to $2,000 on the black market.
The investigation began last March when Hoover and another ATF agent went to interview Terrell Robinson at his residence in Clairton, Pa., and asked him about buying seven handguns in a short period of time, according to Hoover's affidavit. According to the affidavit, Robinson bought the weapons at three Pennsylvania gun stores in February and March of last year.
The practice, known as a "straw purchase," involves someone buying a gun for someone not permitted to have one. Robinson has not been charged but the investigation is continuing, a state attorney official said yesterday.
During the ATF visit, "Robinson admitted to purchasing four of the firearms in question for another person, who was from Canada, and whom he knew from the California University of Pennsylvania football team."
U.S. immigration and customs said Baffoe-Bonnie was in the U.S. on a "non-immigrant student visa with a recent border crossing entering the United States on March 20, 2006."
According to the affidavit, Robinson admitted buying seven guns for "K.B." Baffoe-Bonnie told agents he had gone to the store but denied other involvement.
Then last fall, two of the guns Robinson admitted buying were found in Canada, including the Bersa .380, recovered after a gang shooting in Toronto. The ATF's National Tracing Center tracked a Taurus revolver to Canada. A senior Toronto police officer said U.S. authorities are responding to public pressure to crack down on the illicit purchases.
"The Americans have finally caught on to straw purchasers," said the investigator, who asked not to be named. "Americans love their guns but when guys are buying 10 guns at a time – it's (gun trafficking) become a big issue."
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/192076
While I don't think the fifty percent number is perhaps as valid (it may be) overall, I think if we narrow it to "problem handguns" (the one's that are the most likely to end up in the hands of illegal gangs and to be used) that may be more appropriate.
Gangs like the Crips , Bloods, and Hell's Angels (among many others) share a cross border heritage. The easy availability and close proximity to Canada makes the US the easiest choice for gun smuggling, as does ease of smuggling.
In the end, the numbers of Canadians that die from these weapons is still rather small, especially if one counts the fact that they typically get used on other criminals - and not innocents (outside of the exceptional case).
Quebec , for a time, had a raging biker war going on with the Hell's Angel's . When it started, there was a small amount of attention paid to it. When an innocent child was killed by shrapnel from a car bomb - the public and police went postal.
They went on a full court press, and almost every biker in both gangs involved (the one's still alive anyway) wound up arrested , charged, and imprisoned.
That's kind of a reflection of our justice system, and perhaps most justice systems. When criminals kill criminals, it's less of a problem. Once they start killing innocent people, it's everyone's problem. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/4/2008 6:20:58 PM | Just a thought: What about if your gun is stolen during a robbery, and you are not home? Gun registration just might help the police get your gun back to you, the rightful owner. Not all gun laws are intended to take guns away, but to assure that guns remain in the hands of the rightful owners. Same thing applies to cars: registering cars helps the DMV and the police so that if your car is ever stolen they can find it. Registering my car doesn't make me feel scared that someone will take it away from me (unless I do something real bad with the car like a DUI---which I don't have to worry about as I only have one beer or wine with a meal). The registration process for cars and guns has been implemented for the public interest. I would not object to registering a gun if I buy one for target shooting.
For the record, I would never support a complete ban on handguns because people have the right, if qualified, to own guns, and having them for hunting or target shooting is fine. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/4/2008 6:30:11 PM | | My gun will not be stolen. My gun will be with me at all times. Just about, except on Sunday at church. Also, the wrong people will still get there hands on guns. It's called the streets. People make a living selling guns to criminals on the streets and it will never be stopped. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/5/2008 12:28:16 AM |
My gun will not be stolen. My gun will be with me at all times. Just about, except on Sunday at church. Also, the wrong people will still get there hands on guns. It's called the streets. People make a living selling guns to criminals on the streets and it will never be stopped.
Just because something can't be stopped, doesn't mean it shouldn't be regulated in order to attempt to reduce it.
Hand gun crime is much more common in the USA vs Canada on a per capita basis. Why is that? | |
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| gun control in the USA
Posted: 2/5/2008 1:15:34 AM | I don't think the problem is the guns there bud. Look at who did the killing. As you said in your little rant it was gang related. It was not the law abiding people that did it. If you take the guns from those who obey the law the only ones who have them are the ones who don't. So why don't you get rid of the gangs and thugs and not the guns. That may work. I do have a gun a 45 and will be getting a 9 to go along with it. In my line of work you carry one. I have never killed anyone. I have my gun on me at all times. And would never do so unless I or some other person was in danger. I will never hand my gun or guns over to anyone sorry to bust your bubble bud. I have kids they know not to touch it or even go to the place where it is when I have it by my bed. I do go out and shoot just so I stay able to shoot it safely and get better at it. I am not part of the NRA. Never have been. But gun bans don't work. The only people that gets hurt by it are the law abiding people. Who got their guns legally. And not the scum bags who got them illegally. Grow up and think for once in your life and not just cry and throw a fit like a little kid.
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| gun control in the USA
Posted: 2/5/2008 6:09:51 AM | | The reason why I believe in proper storage of guns is that I can still remember when I was a kid. Back then my father could have his guns in a gun rack hanging on the wall. You did not even need a trigger lock. Just like all fathers he would tell all us kids not to touch them or we would get the belt. Just like all children did we listen. Sometimes when he was out of the house I would be right there with the gun off the rack and playing with it. I even remember one time finding a 12 guage shot gun shell which I took all the buck shot out of and replaced it with tissue paper. Would have been 12 years old. Kept that shell in my pocket till my friends came over. The one friend had played a dirty joke on me so I wanted to get even. So when everyone was in the basement I put on a pissed off act. I looked right at everyone and said I am going to kill Mike. The two friends see me pull the 12 guage pump action shot gun off the wall. Then they saw me reach in my pocket, pull the shot gun shell out of my pocket and load. Mike at this time was not sure of what I was going to do next but he look worried. Then I swung the gun around and pointed it approx. two feet about his head. At this point he was waving his hands in front of me. The other friend thought I was joking. After I pulled the trigger you could have heard a pin drop. There was a great big bang and approx. a two foot flame came out of the end of the barrel (tissue paper burning). Mike went white as a ghost and almost cried. I fell over backwards laughing. At the time I thought it was funny. Remember I was not much older than 12. At that exact time I believe I got my revenge for what he did to me. Not even sure if he crapped his pants. For this reason I do believe in proper gun storage. According to Canadian laws a gun is properly stored if the gun has a trigger lock and is placed in a case. To date the gun still does not need to be placed in a gun safe. It just has to have a trigger lock and be placed out of sight. This is classified as proper storage which in October of 2007 I just confirmed with one of the instructors who I wrote the gun challenge test with. However, personally I believe that guns should be stored with trigger locks and in a safe when placed in a home. This is not to prevent theft of them but to protect the other members of the home. For example accidental shootings when children play with firearms. Also to help protect someone from being shot during a heated argument between sposes. Just say the husband comes home late from drinking at a bar with his buddies. The wife was left home with her two year old and her hormones was racing. She was hoping for her husband to be on time for sex that evening. To curb her sex drive. Instead her husband comes home late smelling of alcohol. Her hormones are racing, say she is 35, she would like a 2nd child, at this point in time she is not even thinking straight. Like all arguments start she starts asking her husband where he was. He tells her to stop nagging him. This in return aggervates her so she comes back with, you are always out drinking with your friends. He comes back with I rarely drink with my friends. More things are said between the two of them. The argument heats up even further till finally with her hormones racing she picks up his gun of the table by the bed and shots him dead. This could have been prevented if only the husband had stored his gun properly with a trigger lock and place in the safe. If the husband had done that he would have had time to run out of the house, go over to one of his buddies and do some more drinking. Instead, he chose to leave his gun beside his bed not expecting his wifes hormones to get the better of her and now he is being driven of to the morgue, his wife of to jail and two year old joey is now going to foster parents. This all could have been prevented by proper storage of firearms. | |
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| gun control in the USA
Posted: 2/5/2008 6:28:13 AM | One of the most ignored factors in the gun control debate is this:If you are going to be killed by someone w/ or w/o a firearm. more likely than not it's going to be by a person that you know.
A friend, acquaintance or a relative is going to be the one that shoots you.
How, exactly, is gun control going to stop that? | |
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| gun control in the USA
Posted: 2/5/2008 6:38:17 AM |
I don't think the problem is the guns there bud. Look at who did the killing. As you said in your little rant it was gang related. It was not the law abiding people that did it. If you take the guns from those who obey the law the only ones who have them are the ones who don't.
Yah, like in Canada, where there is less crime per capita.
We've been over this. Read the thread. Your system of gun ownership in order to prevent crime doesn't work. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/5/2008 7:05:34 AM | | The last line of this post explained the problem ( all gang related). Gangs don't respect the law or they wouldn't be called gangs, so gun laws wouldn't stop them. I know its old but guns don't kill people ---people kill people. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/5/2008 7:12:41 AM | agreeing with sixfoot. gun control laws beyond the most basic and fundamental (ie NICS checks which should be expanded to include mental health history) do little more than delay law abiding citizens from their right to keep and bear arms and defend themselves.
Not to slam canada, but to slam the OP - openly - American law is American law - we have the right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the words of our founding fathers and ancestors who fought to make our nation free.
Yes, I am being purposefully obtuse here because gun ownership beyond what is prescribed by our Second Amendment needs no further justification. I don't need to justify to anyone - Canadian, American, the UN and whoever else looks aghast at our gun ownership rights - why I have firearms. Simply put, its my business, not the state's beyond the initial paperwork and not my neighbors, at home or abroad. | |
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| gun control in the USA
Posted: 2/5/2008 10:48:53 AM | A friend, acquaintance or a relative is going to be the one that shoots you.
How, exactly, is gun control going to stop that?
Gun control will stop that because fewer loaded guns will by lying around for some upset or judgment-impaired person to pick up, use, and later regret using until the day he or she dies.
It's really that simple.
What people from countries outside the US don't understand is our collective willingness to trust ourselves and those we know more than we trust the government, given that people can get upset and impaired. Where's the due process in that?
Nevertheless, we remain willing to bet on the wisdom of our neighbors and loved ones as individuals when it comes to managing guns. Is that a good bet? The statistics say probably not.
However, there's an ideology at stake here, the whole raison d'etre for the USA's existence. As Americans, we see ourselves as sovereign individuals, and we reserve our right to use violence in our own defense. Gun ownership symbolizes that personal sovereignty for many of us.
Perhaps not all of us see it that way, but the majority of those who have a strong opinion one way or another appear to. And, since that perception confirms our tradition, our tradition isn't likely to change--even if it means we wind up shooting our friends, acquaintances, and loved ones in disporportionate numbers compared to other industrialized countries.
Is it good? No. Are we insane? Quite possibly. Maybe we all just want to feel like kings and queens, and the prerogative to deal death is certainly a royal prerogative--the ultimate entitlement. And maybe we really are OK with putting ourselves, our acquaintances, and our loved ones at greater risk so that we can enjoy that feeling, or because doing so fits with our ideology.
What it boils down to is this: we would rather have guns at the ready in case the government (at any level, be it local, state, or federal), becomes tyrranical. We understand the risks and the price and have chosen to take them. There's no arguing with us about this. Our minds are made up.
There are plenty of responsible, mature, careful gun owners in the US who understand that they are tools and use them as such. But there are others who aren't and don't. Nevertheless, as a collectivity, we've made our choice and cite our Constitution to justify that choice. It's our ideology, and as we all know, ideology is far more compelling than practicality. If we were to be strictly pragmatic about it, gun control wins hands down.
Oh, another thing. It isn't the Constitution that gives sovereign individuals the right to bear arms. The Constitution merely _recognizes_ that right. That is a very important distinction that I wish 2nd-Amendment advocates more clearly understood.
The Constitution is a contract between each individual citizen and all the other citizens. It is not an agreement between the government and the people. The government that the Constitution specifies is the agency that we have implicitly agreed will act on our behalf to perform the contract. We all submit to the authority of that agency because we want to receive the benefits promised--the guarantee that our rights will be better protected than they would otherwise be if we all had to do that for ourselves.
Our choice for gun ownership doesn't appear to be the best when looked at pragmatically, but it is what it is. And since that's the case, what we're left with is how to regulate the guns that are out there so that we can minimize the harm. Given this political reality, the best we can do is ensure that as many gun owners have the knowledge and training to manage them responsibly, especially when it comes to safe storage.
Now, if the people who so vociferously defend their sovereign right to gun ownership--dangerous though it is to themselves, their acquaintances, and their loved ones--could apply this same reasoning to some of the other dangerous things floating around out there that also can't be suppressed effectively, we'd all be safer. Like Prohibition, this war on drugs creates and maintains the cashflow that drives the gang activity that we all rightly fear. By fighting it, we make the market more profitable. We also undermine the contract. The only things that should be illegal about drugs are recklessly dangerous behaviors performed while under the influence and fraudulent or reckless distribution.
It is funny how the doctrine of harm reduction works just fine when it's your dangerous plaything at stake, but is completely foolish and merely "coddling the criminals" when applied to someone else's. True, there's no Constitutional guarantee of the use of drugs for personal pleasure, but there is an implied right to privacy, the "pursuit of happiness," and the history of medical privilege. If we spent the money we now shell out on incarcerating small-time drug offenders on education and treatment instead, it would be more effective and cost us a lot less. In fact, it would be a net money maker because we'd be taxing the drugs being traded instead.
And quite honestly, for all practical purposes guns are personal playthings for most urban civilians.
I know that the above might seem off topic. I'm bringing it up because I get sick of the inconsistency and unwillingness to look at things from various angles. Ideology has gotten far more people killed than any number of guns. In fact, if you look behind the gun, there's a good chance that there's an idiot with an idea getting ready to pull the trigger.
So let's all take that sovereignty thing seriously--or not. Let's all think things through for ourselves. Just 'cuz your daddy said it don't necessarily make it so. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/5/2008 11:20:56 AM |
And how many shots are you going to need fighting against the government ?
You just need enough to get the soldiers pointing the guns at you to stop for a minute, think things over, and point their weapons in the opposite direction. | |
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