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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/26/2008 6:41:01 PM | "what about riding the world of GANGS...or how about MURDERERS"
Then provide mental health and substance abuse services to every person and family who needs it!..People need to stop whinning about their taxes if they want a better society!...Strengthen and build families, not take away services to those who need them...That will get rid of the need for people to turn to gangs for family..Refusal of society to invest in the mental healthcare of kids is the prime reason children without intact families turn to gangs for protection and support....INVEST in the lives of people now rather than REACT 25 years later when those same abused and neglected kids are now adult murderers and gang members today...Wake up.....DUH...Im so sick of people complaining about the fallout of poor social services and mental health in this country then turning around and refusing to do anything to stop it that works | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/26/2008 6:51:04 PM |
Actually it was several different someones..All incidents were reported to the police...There wasnt anything done illegal in Texas during those incidents......So its not an "individual problem" but a systems problem....I notice thats its common for those against any kind of gun control to think the problem is with a few individuals rather than the sick system...
Having been a Texas Peace Officer, I find it difficult to believe that nothing could be done, where an incident involving the inappropriate ations of an individual with a firearm are concerned. If nothing else, the firearm involved, as well as any other firearms in the home where the individual was known to reside, could have been impounded, pending the outcome of a psychiatric evaluation. Furthermore, the individual involved in the incdient/s, could have been arrested for any one of a number of criminal offenses, including, but not limited to, Disorderly Conduct with a Firearm, Aggravated Assault, Unlawful Carrying of a Weapon, and likely some other things that don't come to mind at the moment.
Assuming that the system is, in fact, "sick" the remedy is to heal the system back to operative health. Unfortunately, a system is only as good as the people who run it, and are served by it. Ergo, the statement: People get the kind of law enforcement they want. You want better law enforcement? Demand it, by getting involved.
States where gun laws are lax tend to look at those incidents as the "price" people pay in order to have unlimited and unmonitored freedom for anyone to carry a gun....
Presuming that the reference to the carrying of a gun, involved a handgun, in Texas; until recent years, it was illegal for anyone, with some limited exceptions, to carry a handgun on, or about, their person. The only person authorized, by law, to carry a handgun, in Texas, for over 100 years, was a duly licensed, and working, Peace Officer.
People who have gun accidents in states like Texas are looked at as isolated "collateral damage" incidents...
All gunshot wounds, regardless of how they occurred are required to be reported to the local law enforcement authority for further investigation, and the law enforcement agency is required to investigate these incidents.
They dont connect the dots, view the whole picture and see that this kind of thing happens more often than they care to admit...
The Uniform Crime Report has a category devoted to shootings of all kinds, whether intentional, or accidental. All law enforcement agencies submit statistics, in order to compile the UCR, and are provided with a copy of the UCR annually.
My therapy office in Texas was full of people with stories of those who lost a relative or friend to accidental shootings...
And here I thought where I worked had an active drug and gun trade.
I never saw anything like that in Massachusetts
Nor are you likely to ever see such a thing in Massachussetts. It seemed as if merely using the term "gun" would bring down the Police from the four closely positioned corners of the state, with reinforcements on the way, at a very high rate of speed.
Funny thing, Massachussetts is the home of Smith & Wesson, one of the largest, most prolific, manufacturers of handguns in the history of the United States. Yet, Massachussetts has some of the most draconian laws governing firearms, in the country.
The people of Massachussetts are of a very different breed, from those in Texas. Comparing the two, is comparing Apples to Oranges. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/26/2008 6:58:17 PM | "Until the cultural views change, no amount of gun legislation will prevent accidental shootings or guns being used to committ crimes"
Then people shouldnt complain about the consequences of what they vote for..Thats the fallout of liberal gun laws...Increased accidental violence and deaths....Getting revenge doesnt stop with one gun murder as retaliation....Thats a proven fact...Until then, we can educate people to address cultural ignorance in the face of facts and reality ...Strengthening the existing laws would be a plus but people in states like Texas are so reactionary and defensive, you cant even talk to them about it because they (wrongly so) see it as a another attempt to take away some arbitrary rights...Its going to take a long time before people get educated.....Enforcement of the existing laws is being eroded in favor of rewriting and revamping the gun laws to give citizens more power to use guns arbitrarily and under a broader range of circumstances...That sets a dangerous presidence when you have impulsive and biased and angry homeowners willing to shoot at anyone and anything, taking their frustrations out on people, before they even have the facts on what is happening in an incident.....A Wild West free for all...The bottom line is that the average homeowner isnt a professional and wont always exercise sound judgement when he has a gun in his house....That results in alot of innocent lives being taken as some kind of "collateral damage"...Peoples lives are more valuable to me than wasting them because of others insecutities about protecting themselves.....Its really a symptom of a bigger social problem here | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/26/2008 7:09:30 PM | "if merely using the term gun would bring down the police from the four closely positioned corners of the state"
A silly reactionary comment from someone who obviously hasnt lived in the state.....I have, for 20 plus years....Mass has plenty of hunters and recreational gun owners....Maine and New Hampshire are big hunting destinations and have been for 300 +years.......Gun owners coexist peacefully with gun laws and dont see their "citizen rights" as gun owners being taken away, harranging to the NRA about their "rights" being trampled on....They are more secure and knowledgeable in the overall need of society having safety restraints versus them having every little whim and need granted and satisfied for their own selfish and insecure purposes......Funny how those living in the most liberal gun law states are most reactionary and defensive about their "rights"! .....Yet Massachusetts has one of the lowest rates of deaths by accidental shootings in the entire 50 states..Thats a fact that cant be ignored by those living in liberal gun law states in the South ...The bottom line is that its a far safer place to live in because of that...The lack of ignorance and reactionary thinking makes it safer in Mass, not the idea that Mass is somehow ignoring and dismissing the rights of gun owners.. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/26/2008 7:39:13 PM | This sounds reasonable. But, how about first we take a good look at what the Constitution says, shall we?
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Constitution of The United States, Amendment Two
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, . . .."
Instead of settling on the Militia part of this statement, let's give a look a little deeper into what the Author is trying to say.
A Militia at the time the Constitution was drafted, was comprised of all able bodied males (sorry ladies), that could be called upon to ensure the security of the state, in this case, the United States. At the time of the drafting of the Constitution, these men were expected to show up with their own arms, which were common military arms of the day.
" [T]he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Strictly speaking, the Arms referred to in this amendment to the United States Constitution says Arms, as in common military Arms of the day. Ergo, it would stand to reason that if the Framers of the Constitution meant common military Arms of the day when this amendment was drafted, then, it would only stand to reason that the people's right to keep and bear Arms would mean common military arms of today, as well.
Hmmmmm, M16A2, or M16A3, anyone? How about an M16, with an M203 grenade launcher attached, you know, just for a change of pace? Or perhaps an M60, personally, my favorite crew served weapon. What about a Squad Automatic Weapon? (I hear they go both ways, belt or magazine fed.) Or maybe a Marc 19, gotta love them 40mm rounds being sent out in semi automatic fashion. What about a Browning 50? Just love the sound of a big 50 early in the morning. Sorry, but, no one in California can have one. You all will have to take that up with your state legislature. What about tracer rounds? Gotta know where your rounds are going, especially good for psyops at night; really keeps the enemy's faces down in the dirt.
Given that there is no such thing, as a "common military arm" today, any and all Arms, of any kind could be reasonably argued to be in compliance with the wording of the second amendment. See United States v. Miller, 307 US 174
Now, assuming everyone is willing to "think" this through. Here's an idea.
What say we continue with the same regulations, and laws that we have today, already on the books, and actually enforce them? Now, it's going to mean the building of some more prisons. But, it's the price you pay when the laws are actually enforced. We'll need to hire a few more prosecutors, and some more Judges, and don't forget those Public Defenders.
Let's dispense with all of thes gun buy back, and amnesty, programs, that only encourage thieves to go out and steal more guns, use them in a crime, sell them to the Police, where they are destroyed, before they can be linked to any crime.
What about we lobby the United States Congress to pass a Federal "Will Issue" law, for concealed carry? That way, one permit would be good in all fifty states. Naturally, the gun grabbers will squall like mashed owls. But, hey, we're going to have to have something for entertainment during those long cram sessions for the final exam before getting our licenses, right? No more being concerned about transporting your gun across state lines, and getting a year long sentence, for transporting your own property into the Kennedy stronghold of Massachussetts. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/26/2008 7:44:57 PM | I beg to differ, I lived in Taxachussetts, and endured their draconian gun laws. Firearms ID card required to even "look at a gun" garbage. Please.
Just because one argues loudest, doesn't make them right.
Having been a resident of both states referenced, Texas, and Taxachussetts, I speak from my own personal knowledge.
Granted, I presently live in one of the most gun friendly states in the United States. Funny thing, we don't go around shooting each other down here either. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/26/2008 8:33:46 PM | "funny thing..we dont go around shooting each other down here either"
Thats not my personal or professional experience..... I lived and worked in both states as well...For many years in each state....I lived in Texas the first 23 years of my life, Massachusetts the last 23 years of my life...Accidental gun shootings were more common in Texas than in Mass....I knew of 4 children my age who were injured by accidental gun shootings during the 70s and 80s.....My best friends father during grade school was killed by overzealous police who accidently pulled the trigger on a gun.....I also heard many stories of people witnessing shooting accidents in Texas while working as therapist there....People were traumatized by the violence...The cultural ideal there that might makes right only served to trigger more violence..I never heard of any accidental gun shootings during the 23 years I lived in Mass...My discovery of the low shooting accident death rates in Mass versus the much higher death rates in Texas confirmed what I already knew personally and professionally...Gun friendly Texas means higher gun accident shootings and deaths from guns...Id rather live in a safer state and have that peace of mind | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/26/2008 8:48:23 PM | Time for a reality check Canada.You just said it.Black market guns.If no law abiding citizen had them.That just leaves the criminals with them.With police arrival times like they are.Its you against the thug with the gun.Its a no brainer.What are you going to do.Throw harsh words at them while there shooting you?I prefer to keep my loved ones safe.Besides most American states still have the RIGHT TO BARE ARMS.The Swiss all have hand guns in there homes,loaded.Its a law there.And you just thought they had handy pocket knifes.
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/26/2008 9:48:48 PM |
First, and foremost, practice safety at all times whenever, and wherever, a firearm is concerned.
Make sure you have complied with all laws governing the purchased, ownership, and using of a firearm.
Guns are not "toys"; they are tools, just like any other tool, and are to be respected, as such, just as you would any other tool. You use a hammer to drive nails, and you use a saw to cut wood; each one has a purpose, the tools are not interchangeable.
Treat all guns as if they are loaded, unless, and until, you have personally checked it, and ensured that it is "empty", and not "unloaded." Yes, there is a difference, a huge difference.
Guns should be locked up, or at least out of the reach of those who are not old enough, or responsible enough, to be trusted with a firearm.
Anyone who has not been taught in the safe, and correct, handling of a firearm should be closely supervised by a qualified instructor, until that person has become proficient in the safe, and proper, handling of a firearm.
Never, ever, not for any reason, do you ever point a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot; this cannot be stressed strongly enough where pointing a gun at another human being is concerned.
Any careless, or lackadaisical, behavior with a firearm, of any kind, would be abuse of the one's right to keep and bear Arms.
Keep safety in mind at all times. No matter what, Safety is paramount, above anything else.
You have just fully (almost) described Canada's approach to gun control and gun control laws. The ONLY significant part you are missing is the licensing and registration process which is SPECIFICALY designed to prevent unqualified people (that would primarily be unstable people and those with a criminal record. It should also be noted that a criminal record, in and of itself, is not sufficient to prevent someone from owning a firearm. The primary focus is those with a history of violence, like domestic abuse/assault and weapons offences. A conviction for something like fraud, even though it is a felony, is not an automatic disqualification. Also, someone who has a relevant objection, like a spouse, can also advocate to have the license denied though the onus is on the objector to establish the validity of the objection).
Since you OBVIOUSLY think all the points you mentioned are important to good gun stewardship why, given the violence that can and does accompany gun offences and the proven example of the Canadian laws in significantly reducing gun crime (an overall 50% drop since licensing for all gun aquisitions came into effect in the late seventies), would you object to those being formal and legal requirements? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 2:54:18 AM |
All right. So now that it's clear that there are irresponsible people on both sides of the debate, let's get down to what's real.
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For those who are actually interested in thinking this through, I suggest we just ignore the noise generated by the extremists on both sides and get on with a discussion of what responsible and informed citizens might agree is appropriate.
Ace, I cant think of a better post, on this topic. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 3:04:51 AM | Funny thing, Massachussetts is the home of Smith & Wesson, one of the largest, most prolific, manufacturers of handguns in the history of the United States. Yet, Massachussetts has some of the most draconian laws governing firearms, in the country.
I've mentioned in a post in another thread, that I have two pistols, both 1911s in .45ACP, identical in every way but one, and that one difference makes one an "assault weapon", under Massachusetts law. Now that's a pretty powerful, emotionally charged, and extreme-sounding term to use, that conjures up scary images of mass death and carnage, in the minds of the firearms-ignorant public. The difference between those two pistols? One has an adjustable rear sight. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 3:34:46 AM |
I've mentioned in a post in another thread, that I have two pistols, both 1911s in .45ACP, identical in every way but one, and that one difference makes one an "assault weapon", under Massachusetts law. Now that's a pretty powerful, emotionally charged, and extreme-sounding term to use, that conjures up scary images of mass death and carnage, in the minds of the firearms-ignorant public. The difference between those two pistols? One has an adjustable rear sight.
That's what annoys me about the anti-gun crowd. They think assault weapon and all of a sudden you have a machine gun or something. Watch tv sometimes and see how often they use the term semiautomatic weapon like it's some greater evil. A semiautomatic weapon is a handgun. Yet they use the term to strike fear into people. Like someone was shooting up the joint like it was the Matrix or something.
If someone wants to shoot up a CVS in a shotgun frenzy there is nothing you can do about it. That's the price you pay to live in a free society. Just cause you outlaw guns does not mean that that still won't happen. Criminals don't care. They'll still have guns. Last time I checked it was illegal to smoke pot but it sure seems like most people don't have a problem getting it. And even if the criminals don't have guns they'll just use knives or anything else they can get their hands on. You might laugh at that one but go look at England. They banned guns and all that happened was an increase in more brutal and violent crimes. Stabbings, running people over with cars, etc.... If someone wants someone else dead there is nothing short of shooting that person first that's going to stop him. So if you're really worried about it go get a conceal carry license and protect yourself when something happens or you can just move on and not worry about things you can't control. Violent crime in this country isn't as bad as what people make it out to be. Most statistics on it are often inflated and exaggerated.  | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 3:37:22 AM | Then provide mental health and substance abuse services to every person and family who needs it!..People need to stop whinning about their taxes if they want a better society!...Strengthen and build families, not take away services to those who need them...That will get rid of the need for people to turn to gangs for family..Refusal of society to invest in the mental healthcare of kids is the prime reason children without intact families turn to gangs for protection and support....INVEST in the lives of people now rather than REACT 25 years later when those same abused and neglected kids are now adult murderers and gang members today...Wake up.....DUH...Im so sick of people complaining about the fallout of poor social services and mental health in this country then turning around and refusing to do anything to stop it that works
Yep! The Great Society failed because it was administered in a punitive way. Housing developments were deliberately made to be as inhospitable as possible, and every aspect of every bailout for the poor has been made to be as burdensome and humiliating as possible. Thus, the people who are "helped" have no reason to feel any gratitude or loyalty to their benefactors whatsoever--meaning the rest of us who pay taxes that ought to help them but don't--and amazingly enough, they don't feel any!
Education and genuine social services aren't costs, they're investments. They pay off in direct cost savings through reduced needs for prisons and losses due to criminal activity over the working lives of those who benefit--that's approx. 50 years or more. They also pay off in indirect gains through increased productivity on the part of those who receive actual benefit and go on to produce increased incomes for themselves, productivity to their employers, and tax revenues down the line.
Is it _really_ so important to us that we feel superior to someone that we choose to pay such a terrible price--a price that includes a need for us each to keep guns in our homes to protect us from the people whose lives are not improved by our guaranteed-to-fail social programs? We have the highest proportion of our population behind bars of any industrialized nation. We cannot say that our social programs are doing anyone much good.
Could it be that those countries who have both gun bans and low murder rates have better social programs, ones that actually work, and that because even their poorest and most disadvantaged residents have good reason to feel gratitude and loyalty to their communities that they choose to better themselves rather than to become desperados?
Liberal bashers take note: I am asking hard questions. If you don't want to think about the answers, that is entirely up to you. But this "my way or the highway" attitude that your pals Rush, Prince George, and Darth Cheney push off on you are hardly what I would consider conservative. If you choose to be a sheeple and refuse to think things through for yourself, you have no cause to call _anyone_ names. It is that very attitude of superiority that will lead you one day to hand over your rights in the name of "security."
So think for yourself or shut the hell up. Sloganeering is bullshit and at some level you know it. Isn't that why you have to resort to name-calling whenever anyone challenges the viewpoint that you've simply swallowed? Grow the hell up. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 3:41:57 AM |
What about we lobby the United States Congress to pass a Federal "Will Issue" law, for concealed carry? That way, one permit would be good in all fifty states.
So long as it includes appropriate requirements for background checks, swearing an oath, training, qualifying, and periodic requalifying, I have no problem with this. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 4:15:53 AM | The first murder ever commited was done with a rock! I'm sure you've heard, guns don't kill, people do! You don't need a gun to kill someone. A gun gives the less advantaged the ability to live safely. If you take guns out of the peoples hands, only the law abiding citizens will give them up. Crack, crystal meth, etc... are all illegal, but the criminals have the streets flooded with it. Here's another saying I'm sure you've heard, "you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!" My gun is on me everywhere I go, but I have never killed anyone with it. Gun control has got to be the stupidest argument I've ever heard ! When a crack head shoves a gun in your face, what are you going to do, through a rock at him?  If someone wants to kill you, they will, with or without a gun. Ever hear of disiel fule and fertalizer? Makes one hell of a bomb! And it killed a lot of people in Oklahoma City. If we make guns illegal, we need to make tire irons illegal as well. Your entitled to your oppinion, but in my oppinion you and anyone in favor of gun control is an idiot! | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 4:31:36 AM |
If we make guns illegal, we need to make tire irons illegal as well.
How do you feel about personal ownership of nuclear weapons? I mean if the first person killed was with a rock who are we to deny ownership to weapons of mass destruction? What are you going to do when a crack head has a nuke in your face? Shoot him with a gun? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 5:12:00 AM |
What about we lobby the United States Congress to pass a Federal "Will Issue" law, for concealed carry? That way, one permit would be good in all fifty states.
So long as it includes appropriate requirements for background checks, swearing an oath, training, qualifying, and periodic requalifying, I have no problem with this.
Given the existing requirements for concealed carry, in most states, I would venture that any Federal Concealed Carry Permit would also have some rather heavy duty requirements before it was issued. I would think that one of the requirements would also include regular, and recurring, In Service type, training, on firearms safety, weapons retention, and, of course, regular qualifying with any, and all, weapons that may be carried concealed.
For those proponents of Gun Control, a link has been provided, in this thread, just a few posts up from this one. There is a Civilian Marksmanship Program, formerly known as the Director of Civilian Marksmanship, that provides education, and training, on proper firearms safety, and the shooting sports.
I, for one, and surely some others posting on this thread, have taken the time to hear what the gun grabbers have to say. How about the other side of the issue do the same in return? Go take a firearms safety class, attend a shooting match, go to a gun show, see, meet, and talk to true firearms enthusiasts. My guess is that with some education, and insight, we will all be able to come to a reasonable solution to the issue.
I firmly believe, that after meeting some true firearms enthusiasts, that most gun grabbers will walk away with a very different view of those who keep and bear Arms. I too, had some skewed, stereotypical views of those who attended gun shows, and my mind was changed, only after I was roped into being at a gun show, for a demonstration that didn't involve firearms at all.
What I have found, at all of the gun shows I have attened, are soft spoken, easy going, well educated, well informed, extremely safety oriented, people who happen to like guns, and find some connection with this great country's history, through their hobby.
Those that some would consider the most extreme collectors of firearms, those who keep suppressors, machine guns, and sawed off shotguns, on the whole, don't collect these weapons to shoot, or use. They keep them as investment vehicles, because Class III weapons have increased in value, exponentially, since they were first regulated, back in the 1930's. These investments, have continued to increase in value, thus their desirability by investors, despite the poor performance of the markets, or what the economy might be doing at any given time.
As for Social Programs, this is my take on the issue. Stop with all of the "my heart bleeds for you" garbage, and get away from the "entitlement" mentality. The long line of people waiting to go get their "benfits" (the spelling is as it is pronounced by those seeking their "benfits") from Social Programs needs to come to a halt. While we may be our brother's keeper, non of us took our brother to raise, from cradle to grave.
Here again, I speak from my own personal experience. I can remember throwing papers, as most guys did back in the dark ages, where the vast majority of people who drew Welfare lived. When it came time to collect for the paper, I had to catch these people within the first few days of the month. Otherwise, they didn't have the money, because it had all been spent on beer, booze, cigarettes, dope, gambling, or a combination thereof. One other thing, guns were readily available in those areas, for a small price, except on those days shortly after Welfare checks had been issued.
You want to stop gun violence, and innocents from being harmed by idiots with guns? Okay, so do almost all firearms owners, and enthusiasts. How about we start enforcing the laws already on the books, and stop letting the real charges they were arrested for to begin with be plea bargained down to non moving traffic violations?
It comes back to that right to keep and bear Arms coming with personal responsibility. Well folks, committing a crime comes with personal responsibility too; you commit a crime, you are responsible for the consequences of that criminal act. Spin it anyway you care to, owning a firearm, of any kind, comes with responsibility, just the same as ALL of the rights guaranteed under the US Consitution do.
For those that want gun violence to be stopped, as all firearms enthusiasts do; turn off the electronics, put down the remote control, get involved with local law enforcement, local government, make both of these entities work for you, and with you. I assure you that your local law enforcement will be more than happy to help you to put a stop to the gun violence in your communities.
I was a Police Officer, in two cities that had rather active gun and dope trades. I've seen, first hand, up close and personal, what can be done when a community gets involved with law enforcement, and their local government. Crime rates come down like an avalanche, the likes of which no mountain in history has ever seen. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 5:41:38 AM |
What about we lobby the United States Congress to pass a Federal "Will Issue" law, for concealed carry? That way, one permit would be good in all fifty states.
I doubt that legislation like this would fly.
NYC,Chicago and Washington DC ALL have draconian laws regarding the ownership of handguns.
Any federal law would gut those laws...and the local politicos would scream bloody murder if that occurred.
And they'd have the clout to prevent it.
Sooo...IMHO...don't look for that (federal carry law) to happen anytime soon.
Hey lostcauz.....a question: If/when there's a "drop" in crime, why isn't there ever a drop in the number of people that are employed by the criminal justice system at any level?
I mean if crime really "dropped"...then there wouldn't be as large a need for police officers, court personnel.....jail employees....prison staffs,etc.
How can there be LESS crime and the same number of employees?
Or more?
Just wondering... | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 5:52:04 AM |
The first murder ever commited was done with a rock! I'm sure you've heard, guns don't kill, people do!
Sloganeering. Guns allow people to be much more effective at killing than rocks do. They also make a shooter much harder to stop. You know it. Why do you think that the most idiotic slogan will settle a substantive argument?
The truth is that you don't. You're just being smug and lazy and you know it. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:11:52 AM | "Could it be that those countries who have both gun bans and low murder rates have better social programs?"
Absolutely!...Great post...You articulated that so much better than I could have have....This is the truth that many Americans dont want to face....Why wont people in the USA wake up and understand that INVESTING in others who need it is the way to reduce overall violence?.....If "guns dont kill people, people do" then WHY doesnt society invest in helping people???????.Why arent those same people saying that voting to support help for others?......Gun supporters tout this slogan yet never answer that question....About 90% of the problems people bring to me in therapy could have been prevented if there were adequate programs and supports for people that need it, especially children....Im treating the fallout of years of lack of help people should have had in the first place as children .....People who say "Not my taxes" arent looking at the bigger picture nor are they putting children first...........When reactionary gun supporters are asked the hard questions, they dont have any anwers except keep making more guns and building bigger jails!......That just guarantees me more traumatized people to work with!...Ironic and somewhat amusing that those who dont believe in therapy are often the ones whose voting, thinking and actions GUARANTEE it will always be needed.......That isnt the proactive solution, thats an emotional reaction to the problem, and doing it just keeps poring money out the window, then years later the same people who supported that complain about the lack of results...DUUUHHH!.......Youd would have thought that American travelers to Europe would have caught onto why they have such low rates of handgun murders as opposed to the USA...Or maybe they did "get it" and dont want to think about it cos it would mean changing their way of thinking?... | |
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mac428
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Joined: 2/21/2008
Msg: 1471 | |
| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:39:29 AM | I'm going to jump into this fray. I'm not reading 40+ pages but I'll defend my position as much as I can.
I need a gun. Actually I need several guns. So do most people. It's not that I think every night there is going to be a gang of bad men kicking down my door. But maybe one night that will happen.
Or the fact that the first step to a genocide is disarming the people. Jews, Armenians, Gays, Intellectuals, and Dissenters in general have been disarmed in the past only to be sent to mass graves later. Many will argue that it CAN'T happen here but how do you know that? The people who went to there graves thought the same thing for the longest time.
I'll concede that some people do not need guns, but that's the exception not the rule. Guns are quite safe when one learns how to handle them properly and obeys the rules. It's not that hard and people who think the police are Jedi-like masters of firearms may be surprised that some cops shoot their guns twice a year just to qualify. I know plenty of people who could out shoot most cops. They aren't complicated pieces of machinery.
I digress from the main subject. Guns are a necessary "evil". Though I don't consider them evil. An inanimate object cannot be evil, the person operating it can. A car that runs over people is not evil, but its driver can be if he did so willingly.
Criminals will always get guns and other weapons. Tell a 105 pound girl she can use martial arts and pepper spray against a 200 pound guy and you are really telling a sick joke. Now give that girl a snubbie and the odds have tipped into her favor.
Besides criminals we must be ready to defend against foreign enemies. It is every citizens duty to resist and beat the Huns back from our soil. To say you refuse is to say you are not worthy of being a citizen.
And lastly, guns are there to keep a government in line. When people outnumber the government on who's armed (roughly 60-80 million, many times over the current military numbers) we have a marked advantage. Yes yes, I know they have tanks and such, but those do not replace boots on the ground. Yet again I'm digressing.
At any rate, those are my reasons briefly. For more info go to the following sites.
www.jpfo.org
www.pinkpistols.org
www.a-human-right.com
www.gunowners.org
A wealth of information will be at your disposal from there.
One last note, people trying to ban guns.....you have to come and get them. There's an old flag that was used either in the US or Texan revolution that stated above a cannon "Come and Get it!". Disarming a motivated armed populace should prove to be interesting. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:46:02 AM | | ...mac..Teaching people how to use a gun properly doesnt stop them from using that same gun emotionally in revenge on an ex-spouse or neighbor they cant see in the dark...Ive heard many stories of wives being threatened by a gun if they dont do what the spouse or ex spouse wants.....Thats called terrorism....Proper gun techniques dont account for human error or human nature for people to lose their temper and react childishly and impulsively ...The most skilled gun owner can have a meltdown and lose it, using the gun as a weapon against others........Many Nazis were extremely skilled gun owners and look how they used guns against people....This is what most pro gun supporters are ignoring or arent aware of......THAT is a risk that is too high for me...Innocent dead people are not "collateral damage" or targets of "friendly fire" so gun owners can have unlimited rights here and ignore incidents of violence when someone loses it.. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:50:42 AM | Or maybe they did "get it" and dont want to think about it cos it would mean changing their way of thinking?...
People tend to suffer from confirmation bias, the tendency to ignore or dismiss evidence that runs counter to their previously held beliefs and to embrace and emphasize evidence that confirms their preconceived ideas.
It's a natural tendency, but it is also a trap. When you combine it with system justification bias (the tendency to favor the familiar even when better options are available), and the extrimist tendency to cast arguments in terms of false dichotomies (you're either with us or against us), people's minds can really shut down. When you add the Dunning-Kruger effect (incompetent thinking leading people to falsely conclude that they have a good understanding), you get an incredible complacency.
BTW, Wikipedia has lists of logical fallacies and cognitive biases that anyone who wants to make a credible case should review every once in a while:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
If the pen is mightier than the sword, and a mind is a terrible thing to waste, does it follow that a sharp mind is more powerful than a gun? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:55:38 AM |
Teaching people how to use a gun properly doesnt stop them from using that same gun emotionally in revenge on an ex-spouse or neighbor ...
Exactly. That's why I think people should be made to swear an oath to use the gun only to uphold the Constitution. Then, if they use it for some other purpose, not only can they be punished for the crime, but for the felony of perjury, and perhaps even treason.
But more to the point, they know that they swore the oath, and for many that knowledge will give them pause to reconsider before doing something crazy. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:55:53 AM | Well you folks in the USA have the right to do whatever the majority feels like, so those of you adamantly for or against should just vote for your appropriate electoral candidates and hope for the best.
Personally I see nothing wrong with the invention of the gun itself - it is a tool, but one with great destructive power and hence it is a tool to be RESPECTED. You wouldn't juggle a live-chainsaw, so I wouldn't expect you to foolishly play around with a loaded weapon either
I respect hunters who diligently use their weapons with the utmost care in pursuit of their sport/foraging. At least most of THESE gun-owners understand the responsibility that comes with gun ownership and the inherent dangers of their hobby.
However I do have qualms against guns falling into the "wrong hands", and by that I mean anyone willing to use one for such frivolous purposes as revenge, cowardly aims such as theft/sexual assault, or deplorable goals such as unprovoked murder. 
It is people that live their lives in perpetual fear of potential harm beyond their control, and that reach for a gun as their first and only alternative that frighten me the most. We have become a society of willful invalids, unable to protect ourselves from "would-be terrors" and depend on these tools to give us a false sense of security... 
Self-defense, at least in my opinion, begins with the mind and a hyper-vigilant state of awareness of one's surroundings at all times. If you're paying attention to who and what's around you, you should (but not necessarily always) be able to avoid even getting into danger in the first place...
If people want the right to carry firearms, then as a trained martial artist I would like the right to be able to walk down the street with sheathed "live" (i.e. sharpened) martial arts weapons (sai, katana, kama/scythes). I trust myself with those more than I would the coward's tool (guns), and at least I have to THINK FIRST about how to attack/defend with them than just blindly pull a trigger into potential hapless masses...  | |
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