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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/23/2008 6:03:45 PM |
If you have the right to a weapon, you also have some responsibilities that go along with that right.
One is to be properly trained HOW to use, and legally aware of you responsibilities WHEN using it. You are responsible for securing that weapon to the best of your ability, to keep it out of the hands of people that shouldn't have access to it - like children and criminals.
I agree. On the training aspect, I would add that one of the inherent uncommon sense responsibilities of owning a weapon is to be pro-active in being trained on how to use it plus all of the other aspects of gun ownership beyond the scope of simply knowing how to use it.
Again, this isn't about banning firearms, it's about controlling the access to them by those people who will misuse them. Something like storing a weapon in an unsecured car on the street may be legally possible in some states, but it's still allowing access to those weapons by potential criminals.
If they are committing a crime stealing a car, then finding a gun in it is just a gift.
The problem I have with this line of thinking is that, at least in terms of my experience with gun owners, it's unfathomable to me that a legal owner of a weapon would even on the best of days leave that weapon in an unlocked or otherwise unsecured vehicle unattended.
If that concept were to apply to weapons in the form of guns, then it should also apply to vehicles which can also be used as weapons, in the extreme of course. Someone steals a vehicle that was locked (or even unlocked) and subsequently the thief kills someone with that vehicle, using this line of thinking, IMO, is comparable to suggesting that if one's vehicle is stolen and later used in the commission of a crime then the owner of said vehicle should not own a vehicle.
Bottom line is simple. If a criminal wants to cause harm to someone else, regardless of the means, they're going to. Whether it be a gun, a vehicle, a kitchen knife - whatever. No matter how much one may believe that controlling access of guns to the element of society that chooses to misuse them, it's an illusion at best. Even if it were possible to eradicate all guns off the planet, where is the element of control of preventing intentional harm to another person? The only thing that changes is the tool, not the result. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/23/2008 6:14:13 PM |
The only thing that changes is the tool, not the result.
Again, look at the statistics of countries with gun control versus the US version of it.
Most are far safer, with less gun fatalities.
I bring up the example of Canada, and people say the USA isn't Canada. Hard to argue that one, I admit. 
On the other hand, they cherry pick statistics from other countries to defend America's rights to firearms - and they aren't America either .
As to cars as lethal weapons, ever try to hold someone up using a car ? It's pretty tough. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/23/2008 7:04:45 PM |
As to cars as lethal weapons, ever try to hold someone up using a car ? It's pretty tough.
Ever try to protect your family in your home from an armed intruder with your car?
Sure, it makes sense that countries that don't have guns have less gun deaths. It's also a lot safer to swim in a lake where there isn't any sharks.
However, I haven't seen any proof that people are safer in a country without guns. And I have seen proof that people without guns were butchered. I will keep my guns. I am a reasonable guy. If I truly thought the world would be safer I still wouldn't give them up. Why should I give up my guns because someone else was irresponsibile?
There has been a lot more people saved every year because someone had a gun, a LOT more than those that have died. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/23/2008 7:16:02 PM |
As to cars as lethal weapons, ever try to hold someone up using a car ? It's pretty tough.
You actually tried that???? (As an experiment, I mean, of course to test the theory presumably) (I couldn't resist - sorry!)
Every culture aka country is going to have its measure of unsafe conditions. To use only statistics of guns vs. no guns as the only measurement of safety in that aspect when comparing countries only limits the big picture to a snapshot, IMO. Almost like comparing apples to oranges, both fruits yet from different trees. Also, statistics on either position are only as valid as reported and measurable data. Not all crimes are reported, whether involving the use of a gun or not. Not all crimes are black and white. So I view statistics as comparable to a "pulse check" but not necessarily absolute evidence to support one position or the other.
As far as gun fatalities, an irrefutable truth of life is that at some point, we are all going to die. Can't avoid the truth that when our time is up - it's up, no matter by what means it happens. Whether it be as the victim of a crime, old age, an accident or any other means - can't avoid it. Now I am not suggesting that we give everyone on the planet the right to bear arms as that isn't even rational thinking. However, it isn't rational thinking either to restrict a country's right to bear arms out of fear of gun fatality.
I've had a gun pointed right between my eyes during a bank robbery and yes, it was scary and the end of that barrel kept getting bigger the longer he pointed it between my eyes. Even before that moment, had I made the decision to pull the alarm, I would have had my head blown off as one of the pair was behind me with his gun pointed at the back of my head - all in a matter of the longest second I ever experienced. I'm still here and I wasn't shot, neither was anyone else that day. Could have been as the other robber was sure getting antsy. Of course we were all scared and it didn't help matters that I forgot the combination which delayed their leaving significantly enough that the FBI called it a hostage situation.
Still, I am not afraid of guns, not afraid to own them, not afraid of people who own them lawfully. Why should I be? No gun control would have prevented those robbers from getting those guns. It's not as though they would be inclined to obtain their semi-automatic weapons legally first and then use them to rob a bank. So where is the element of control in the bigger picture? Would my position on gun control be different if I had been shot or one of my staff or customers had been shot? No, it wouldn't change my position at all. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:06:07 PM | Well, I wasn't raised around guns, nobody ever owned them in my family, they were never even an "option" for anyone in our home to buy, so I just never had any remote thought of buying one. I always figure, in all honesty, if you pull that thing and you shoot someone, at least the way the laws seem around here, even if it's a guy trying to ...whatever, mug you or whatever.... ultimately nowadays you could wind up being the one with the problem -- unless he was either similarly armed and invaded your home I believe, or it had been literally a matter of life or death. In other words, I think if you're being carjacked at gunpoint and you draw quickly (but then you shouldn't have a loaded one under the seat or in near reach -- at least here in Chicago that's very illegal, registered or not) , and you shoot and kill the guy, a case could be made for your valid self-defense. But if your attacker doesn't have one that he's threatening you with, and you kill him w/one, then I think it's the type of situation where you were the victim who essentially became the aggressor, in a sense. I don't want to go to prison over my hot temper either, so for me having one at the ready has never been a good idea.
I really think I would only buy one, and then only a handgun basically, if I were going to use it, and use it quickly at that. Otherwise I see no point in owning one --- going to a range to shoot was boring and lame (went once w/a friend), and personally I don't believe in hunting or anything, so.... rifles and all that are pointless for me as well. So I personally couldn't care less if they changed the whole 2nd amendment here and just pretty much banish private gun ownership, frankly; doesn't affect me. And I know someone might say, Well it will if you ever need one, or your home is invaded, or blah blah blah, then it will affect you ....... well to that I will just pre-emptively reply that I already have a good home alarm system and deadbolts on solid doors, plus 911 to call, and as for getting attacked on the street I'll just have to take my chances with those rather remote scenarios. I've lived 32 yrs just fine w/only touching a gun once (when I went to the range w/the friend I mentioned above), my father never has had one in his whole life, no one else in my family (that I know of) has; I feel people can get by perfectly well without them , unless they need it for their career such as law enforcement for example. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:22:02 PM | | The inescapable fact is that guns are a part of our heritage. IMO, there's plenty of countries you can move to and live in which have gun control. Border patrol keeps(tries to) people out, not in. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/23/2008 9:05:44 PM | Actually as for those types of scenarios some people bring up about being attacked in the street, or mugged, or robbed, or for women raped, or whatever...... here in Chicagoland you can't carry , period. If you own one, legally registered, you cannot have it on you. So that defeats, IMO, the "self-defense" purpose anyway. I don't think anyone gets concealed carries here. Only off-duty cops can have one on them , I think, but obviously even they have strict rules and regulations about ever drawing it , etc -- unless they want to lose their job and risk jail.
So if I were to have a handgun, and then be paranoid and start carrying it around with me pretty much ready for "action", all I have to do is get caught like that once here and now I'm a felon. And they could care less about my wanting to "defend myself" in the event of being attacked. In Chicago (I'm sure NYC or LA as well) they'll tell you that's what the police are there for. Same thing w/those hypothetical carjacking situations. You keep one in your glove compartment or under your seat (where it would basically need to be , and loaded, to be effective in that kind of scenario) and you're the felon if you're ever pulled over and they see that thing. So, again, around here at least ...... pointless and basically just looking for trouble w/the law even if you are an otherwise totally law-abiding citizen. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/23/2008 9:31:47 PM |
As to cars as lethal weapons, ever try to hold someone up using a car ? It's pretty tough.
It's been done. It was shown on one of those "stupid criminal" video shows: a pair of thugs backed the pickup truck through a plate-glass window, one jumped out and grabbed the cash register (the whole thing), tossed it in the back of the truck, and away they went.
Of course, they forgot to conceal the license plate, it showed in the video of the robbery. They got caught later, at their home, trying to break open the cash register.
Cars as lethal weapons? Happens all the time. Ever been tailgated really close by an excessively large truck? Ever had someone attempt to run you off the road? Those drivers could be charged with "assault with a deadly weapon." What's your point? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 2:01:22 AM | If that concept were to apply to weapons in the form of guns, then it should also apply to vehicles which can also be used as weapons ...
Well, no. This isn't a parallel comparison. First of all, a car isn't designed to kill people. Yes, it can be abused that way, but it has another primary utility. What is the primary use for a gun? What is it designed specifically to do?
So, it's reasonable to assume that nobody is going to use your car to deliberately hurt someone because that's not what it's designed for.
However, it is unreasonable to suppose that someone who would take your gun if you left it lying around wouldn't also use it for its intended purpose--just as it would be unreasonable to suppose that someone would steal your car and not drive it.
So, the standard of reasonable care for a car can be quite a bit lower than the standard for a gun. Apples vs. oranges. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 5:38:28 AM |
Well, no. This isn't a parallel comparison. First of all, a car isn't designed to kill people. Yes, it can be abused that way, but it has another primary utility. What is the primary use for a gun? What is it designed specifically to do?
There is a comparision though. Vehicular licencing although not perfect does help remove the likelyhood of incompetent or mentally unstable/medically unfit persons from driving......... meanwhile the NRA is ticked that Johnny the aggressive retard has to wait 7 days for his shiny new gun, and the Brady bunch seem to want no one to be able to own a gun because there are no fnction gun-controls or measures to prevent and punish.
Not the point you meant, but the analogy did bring up some food for thought. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:26:10 AM |
Again, look at the statistics of countries with gun control versus the US version of it.
Most are far safer, with less gun fatalities.
I bring up the example of Canada, and people say the USA isn't Canada. Hard to argue that one, I admit.
On the other hand, they cherry pick statistics from other countries to defend America's rights to firearms - and they aren't America either .
Message: well that don't sound too good ~ I fear and I think many other do as well ` someday ~ Americans will have to take back their government ~ so we have guns ~ lots of them ~ all kinds ~ big one , small one ~ I hope it never comes to that ~ but things are not looking so great at the moment. ~ dar | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:38:46 AM | Ballots, not bullets, will promise you the best future possible.,
If it comes to a shoot-out, no one wins.
It still puzzles me how this country with so much going for it is so hard on itself, sometimes. You've got all the tools you'll ever need to push back against the night, many more than a great number of countries do. Your Founding Father's were good parents, and they made sure you had the keys to the house.
You country has so much wealth, so many resources, and so much talent that you should never suffer any deprivation.
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?
-Robert Kennedy
Perhaps a deeply ironic source of inspiration, given the topic of this thread. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:43:19 AM | Who says disarmed civilians are safer?
Right now, Robert Mugabe is trying to acquire more arms from China. Funny thing but I don't think the common people of Zimbabwe feel safer when they see Mugabe's goon squads getting more and more weapons.
The reality is that the US is a society in which the highest authority is NOT the government, or the church, or a king. It is WE THE PEOPLE.
I don't know any other society structured this way. In most places, people's duty is to obey their government. In America, the duty of the government is to obey the people. That's why it makes no sense to strip away from the people their right to be armed.
Does anybody think America would be better off with fewer guns? Here's a suggestion. You can get started today to make America gun-free. Take away the guns from all the rich people. Tell the people who live in gated communities that the guard at the gate may no longer be armed. Look around your neighborhood - wherever you see a sign that says "Patrolled by Security Guards - Armed Response" tell them that from now on, they must replace it with a new sign that says "We have no guns in this house." Call your local celebrities - film stars, polticians, the mayor - and tell them that they can't have bodyguards, they must live in vulnerability like the rest of us.
And oh yes, tell your police that from now on they can carry handcuffs and batons but no more guns. Then go down to your nearest military base and tell the commanding officer that we are now going to live without armed forces.
Oh, how much safer we will all be.
But oh no, the disarmament nuts don't intend to disarm the rich. Just take away the right to own that Saturday night special from the little old lady in the ghetto and all will be well. Right. Sure. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:45:48 AM | Guns do not cause any problem..it is the users of guns.
If you take away our right to bear arms....only the criminals will have them.
Oh that's right... there are no more criminals in the US ..just Terrorists.
We may also have to fight our own police one day. This country is going downhill fast. We are losing all our rights under the Constitution and the apathetic Americans don't even care that they may end up homeless and broke soon ...all for the rich of the America. So be it.
But they are not taking my gun! They will have to kill me first. Then I will be in a better place than them anyway!
I know many of you think I am crazy for saying this...but I RESEARCH what is going on here and abroad. And I am a former cop...and hear things. The cops are now practicing for Marshall Law. When they practice for something...they know something the ordinary citizen does not know. There are a few cops who do not want to see what is about to happen. Look up Operation Vampire Slayer on the net.
WAKE UP AMERICA!  | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:47:52 AM | Montreal Guy says:
"Ballots, not bullets, will promise you the best future possible., ... "
Well, ballots without bullets are useful. You can put them in the bathroom and save on toilet paper. Under Josef Stalin, the people of Russia had ballots, and in their elections always voted 99 per cent in favor of the government. Hey, they had the ballots, what's the problem? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:53:07 AM | Montreal Guy..
Ballots do not work anymore! Research ...you will see that.
We are controlled. Almost completely controlled.
Our present President said the Constitution was nothing but a GD piece of paper! And he sure is proving it!
The sleeping USA is in for a very rude awakening! So is Canada..because your PM is involved in this also. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:54:18 AM | And in America you voted for Al Gore but got GW Bush....... so start marching on Washington. But your handgun is going to do very little to that big heavy tank.
Gun Control means more than just hitting what you aim for. It means taking every reasonable step to prevent the wwrong people from obtaining guns while the larger "normal" segment of society can choose to either have them or not. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:03:22 AM | loonytunz says:
But your handgun is going to do very little to that big heavy tank.
... which is true if we are comparing firepower, but the guy in the tank may want to step out of it sometime, and it's interesting to consider the tank parked in the middle of a city in which there is an armed citizen at every window. Who is then the prisoner? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:10:38 AM | ... which is true if we are comparing firepower, but the guy in the tank may want to step out of it sometime, and it's interesting to consider the tank parked in the middle of a city in which there is an armed citizen at every window. Who is then the prisoner?
- extremely dead on. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:11:06 AM | you want gun control read this first...
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY - FYI
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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In 1911, Turkey established gun control.
From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Germany established gun control in 1938.
From 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
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China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
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Guatemala established gun control in 1964.
From1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Uganda established gun control in 1970.
From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Cambodia established gun control in 1956.
From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
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It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new laws to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent
(yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!
While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.
There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED! If you value your freedom, please spread this anti-gun control message to all of your friends. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:24:36 AM | | morris check the source of your "facts". Oh and actually try to verify those "facts" with a source that isn't NRA sponsorred. Turns out they are false statement meant to fear-monger. And does nothing to explain why countries with working gun control a considerably safer than the US. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:27:49 AM | Turns out they are false statement meant to fear-monger.
- ha ha ha - just like the 'facts' coming out of the anti gun lobby? you know like every 8 seconds a child is killed and then my favorite numbers of ever increasing 'children' being killed in the US by gun violence....turns out they were using 18-23 year olds to attain both numbers.
in short - leave my guns alone. you have no right to them. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:32:57 AM | So there it seems to lie MG ~ ~ for a very untrusting nation of people , we have allow some of our past and present leaders pul the wool over our eyes.
We are a very large nation and that persents it's own set of problems.
Example; In my business, the hvac service industry; ~ It's been determined and proven over and over ~ that at 7 service trucks you are at 100% ~ if your adminstration can maximize those 7 ~ the 8 truck will overload you and any gains will be lost in adminstration cost or general mishandling due to overload.
~ in other words ~~ you top out ~ you work harder but make less.
We do need to come together as a nation ~ we need so desperatly a ~"great leader" to come forward ~ at the crossroads, where we find ourselfs at today.
I personally feel that we have lost our way ~ and allowed others to think for us ~ too much news ~~ is more then you can use ~ from people that want to see you lost.
So we stay divided ~ minding other people business ` neglecting our own ~ dar | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 9:13:08 AM | " ... we need so desperatly a ~"great leader" to come forward ..."
........................
Yeah right. You DO know, don't you, that the German word for leader is "führer"? The LAST thing a free people needs is a "great leader."
The Swiss are a peaceable people with low crime and no foreign wars. And a full auto in every home REQUIRED by law. Now, can you name the prime minister or president of Switzerland?
No? I didn't think you could. And guess what, neither can they. They don't even have one. The country is run by a board and the chairmanship rotates each year. So they do NOT have a "great leader." | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2008 9:18:54 AM | " ... morris check the source of your "facts". Oh and actually try to verify those "facts" with a source that isn't NRA sponsorred. Turns out they are false statement meant to fear-monger. ..."
..........................................
Well, let's see. Was Aristotle "NRA sponsored"? I don't think so.
You can read his "Constitution of Athens." He describes the way democracy was lost.
The despot Peisistratus was driven out of power and they instituted democracy. But Peisitratus wanted to get back into power. He succeeded, illegally. How?
He tricked the Athenians into giving up their swords. That's "gun control" of 2500 years ago. Is disarming civilians so hard to understand? When did gun control EVER enhance freedom? | |
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