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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/14/2008 7:30:33 AM | Nero, you are dreaming. Sounds like you've got a socialist mindset which can never work in the US. The SCOTUS has laid down the law, and it is that people can & will own guns in the US...there cannot even be a serious challenge to that right for the next 200 years.
Anti-gun people in the US now have only two options...don't own one, or move to Canada.
Wasn't there a recent bill that was only shot down 4-5? Anyone who thinks our right to bear arms is safe is just as nieve as the ones who want them banned. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/14/2008 7:44:23 AM | I always find it a little strange that when the question of gun control arises, many people start to discuss the constitutional right to bear arms in America and their right to defend themselves. Surely these are two different and distinct questions that are only loosely connected.
When debating the right to bear arms we must look to the constitution and the law courts for answers whatever our own personal views on fire arms.
When looking at th issue of gun control, we have to look at the crime statistics and the availabilty and access to guns people have.
For the former, the right to bear arms is subject to legal review and personal interpretation. For the latter, there can be no doubt in anyone's mind.
There is no gun control in America. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/14/2008 7:49:28 AM |
There is no gun control in America.
It depends onthe state. In some states it is both illegal to carry a conceiled weapon and illegal to incite public panic (including displaying a gun). That sounds like gun control to me - People are having how and where they can have guns controlled. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 2104 | |
| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:20:59 AM | ^^ It's very controlled in the Chicagoland area. Even in the suburbs, you cannot carry one on your person, period. Unless you are an off-duty police officer or some type of security guard perhaps who is specially licensed. You cannot have one within reach while driving your car; it has to be secured in a case and out of reach of the driver and separated from any ammunition whether you have a permit for it and a FOID card ... or not. (In general it's best for you if you can prove you are on your way to or from a gun range in this type of case as well). Otherwise you're arrested and charged with unlawfully carrying, which I believe is a felony around here.
If you shoot an intruder, around here, and he was not similarly armed with a pistol and threatening you and/or your family with it, it's quite likely you could have it turned around on you and face greater charges than the intruder faced (again, unless he was armed the same as you). If you kill a man who broke in with a lock-picking kit for instance, you are now the aggressor (here in the Chicagoland area at least) and will likely be prosecuted as such depending on the degree of bodily harm you did to him. They call it here "excessive use of force".
I'm not sure how things are down in central and southern IL as they really have a very different culture down there hundreds of miles away from the city, however I believe IL law in general is pretty strict on guns, but Cook and DuPage Counties (right around the city) are in particular.
All of these factors have only reinforced my own personal opinion as to the essential pointlessness (again, around here at least) of actually arming yourself in this manner -- unless you intend to use the gun on yourself and/or others shortly after acquiring it. Otherwise it ends up being merely a piece that has to sit (if you want to remain in compliance w/the law around here) locked up in your closet, or only be carried with you to and from a gun range , unloaded, and a in a closed case -- or else you risk becoming the felon here yourself for unlawfully carrying. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:55:07 AM |
^^ It's very controlled in the Chicagoland area. Even in the suburbs, you cannot carry one on your person, period. Unless you are an off-duty police officer or some type of security guard perhaps who is specially licensed. You cannot have one within reach while driving your car; it has to be secured in a case and out of reach of the driver and separated from any ammunition whether you have a permit for it and a FOID card ... or not. (In general it's best for you if you can prove you are on your way to or from a gun range in this type of case as well). Otherwise you're arrested and charged with unlawfully carrying, which I believe is a felony around here.
If you shoot an intruder, around here, and he was not similarly armed with a pistol and threatening you and/or your family with it, it's quite likely you could have it turned around on you and face greater charges than the intruder faced (again, unless he was armed the same as you). If you kill a man who broke in with a lock-picking kit for instance, you are now the aggressor (here in the Chicagoland area at least) and will likely be prosecuted as such depending on the degree of bodily harm you did to him. They call it here "excessive use of force".
I'm not sure how things are down in central and southern IL as they really have a very different culture down there hundreds of miles away from the city, however I believe IL law in general is pretty strict on guns, but Cook and DuPage Counties (right around the city) are in particular.
All of these factors have only reinforced my own personal opinion as to the essential pointlessness (again, around here at least) of actually arming yourself in this manner -- unless you intend to use the gun on yourself and/or others shortly after acquiring it. Otherwise it ends up being merely a piece that has to sit (if you want to remain in compliance w/the law around here) locked up in your closet, or only be carried with you to and from a gun range , unloaded, and a in a closed case -- or else you risk becoming the felon here yourself for unlawfully carrying.
Yes, this is all true for the most part. But it is also true that because of it the crime rate in your city is among the highest in the country. Innocent people aren't allowed to protect themselves.
This will change. Since the supreme court ruling a few weeks ago the NRA and a few other gun rights groups have filed suit against Chicago and a few other cities, San Francisco as well.
The constitution gives us the right to protect ourselves and Chicago's laws take that right away from it's citizens.
Nero1......is it wise to swim in shark infested waters? This is what Chicago is expecting it's citizens to do. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:25:50 AM | Let's control guns themselves since the ability to use them is too controlled for them to be usefull?
That's what I got out of NERO1's post. I think it's better policy to let the criminals remain criminals and not turn victims into criminals. In self defense, excessive force should be between the victim and (God or themselves or whatever fits their beleifs). One should never have to be afraid of defending themselves in situations where it's obvious who the aggressor and/or criminal is. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/14/2008 6:53:35 PM | I would not want to know about owning a gun in an urban area unless I was walking around with a lot of cash. However, in rural areas it's another story. If you have livestock you need a gun. I use to stay part time with a relative in MS as a child. Mornings often required blowing away a water moccasin snake; or in early AM hours grabbing the pearl-handled colt 45 in the night stand to deal with the chicken coop and a fox. "Owee Baby, Owee Baby, etc.
I have a rifle. If anyone broke into my house they'd find out about it. I think that a lot of the "anti-gun" thing is silly, old hippy, granola nonsense. I can see strict controls on handguns, though. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 2108 | |
| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/15/2008 10:47:29 AM | | ^^ Strict controls, if not bans, in inner cities , certainly, if nowhere else. And for that matter what could be the rationale for a civilian (again particularly in an urban or suburban area) owning an assault rifle for instance?? IMO the purpose of the tool is given in its very name. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/15/2008 12:38:52 PM | | Nero, you did hear about the Supreme Court decision on gun bans, right? All those gun ban laws are no longer enforceable, and if someone was fooish enough to try, they'd have a nasty multi-million dollar lawsuit on their hands that would be exceptionally winnable... | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/15/2008 12:49:01 PM |
^^ Strict controls, if not bans, in inner cities , certainly, if nowhere else. And for that matter what could be the rationale for a civilian (again particularly in an urban or suburban area) owning an assault rifle for instance?? IMO the purpose of the tool is given in its very name.
An "assault rifle" is an automatic rifle. You have to have a special permit for one of these. I think there are only 200-300 in the country. But don't quote me on that. Most of those permit holders are collectors. The federal gov. knows who thay are.
The guns in the hands of the rest of us are not "assult rifles" . The anti-gun media gave them that name to scare un-educated people. The guns you are thinking about are semi-auto. That means you have to press the trigger for each shot.
The only difference between these guns and the gun I hunt with is the way it looks.
These guns aren't even as deadly as a good hunting rifle. But they are a lot of fun to shoot pop cans with.
And if you haven't noticed......more and more states are allowing CCWs. Which means it isn't getting more strict. Americans want it less strict. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/15/2008 5:20:44 PM |
I always find it a little strange that when the question of gun control arises, many people start to discuss the constitutional right to bear arms in America and their right to defend themselves. Surely these are two different and distinct questions that are only loosely connected.
The US Supreme Court recently ruled in the Heller case that the two issues are inextricably intertwined and inseparable.
When debating the right to bear arms we must look to the constitution and the law courts for answers whatever our own personal views on fire arms.
See Washington DC v Heller, US Supreme Court ruling just handed down.
When looking at th issue of gun control, we have to look at the crime statistics and the availabilty and access to guns people have.
See Washington DC v Heller.
For the former, the right to bear arms is subject to legal review and personal interpretation. For the latter, there can be no doubt in anyone's mind.
. . . what could be the rationale for a civilian (again particularly in an urban or suburban area) owning an assault rifle for instance?? IMO the purpose of the tool is given in its very name.
Would someone please "define" what an assault rifle is?
I am well aware of what the text book, and legal, definition of what some have determined is an assault rifle is.
Is such a definition limited only to rifles?
What about assault shotguns?
What about assault handguns?
Or assault spears?
ALL weapons, including almost all parts of the human body, are ONLY weapons when they are used as such.
I seriously doubt that we will ever see the day in the US that guns are freely handed over to anyone by private citizens. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/15/2008 6:07:49 PM | ^^^ actually, to get a CCW is a rather lengthy process. First you must go to a LE office and get your fingerprints done & sent in to that particular state's ATF-type bureau. They then run extensive checks to make sure you aren't wanted for anything, haven't done anything, and aren't a registered sex offender, wife beater, or general nutcase. Then EVERY gun you own MUST be listed under that license...all guns bought afterwards are automatically listed. There are VERY specific rules governing the use of force for CCW licensees...there's some latitude, but basically you have to operate under slightly tougher restrictions than a cop does. In most states a class is required and further classes mandated for renewal. The process is rather similar to Canada's Gun License, which is required for all gun owners...
On the whole I heartily suggest that as many people as possible get CCW's, it means you have to take regular classes and keep mindful of safe weapon practices. And a well-trained gun owner is a benefit to his community. A poorly trained one is almost as dangerous to him/her-self as they are to a crook. Like the song says..."If you're gonna do it, do it RIGHT!" And join a Club like IDPA or IPSC...practice makes Perfect!!
The cost of the license offsets the cost of the background checks, so I heartily agree with it being reasonable where any american can afford it...much like Florida's. You pass the classes & the background checks, you get the license...just that simple. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/15/2008 6:27:36 PM | | The whole American adoration of gun thing is just weird. The rest of the world thinks they're nuts. Kind of like the bizarre old uncle that you leave in the corner of the room talking to himself. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/15/2008 7:23:21 PM |
The whole American adoration of gun thing is just weird. The rest of the world thinks they're nuts. Kind of like the bizarre old uncle that you leave in the corner of the room talking to himself.
One of the great things about America is that we are welcome to do a great many things with our freedoms. This includes leaving all of those bizarre old uncles who have used guns to come to the aid of the rest of the world, at one time or another, behind when one goes.
Most Americans, quite frankly, don't care what the rest of the world thinks.
A gun is one of those things that it is better to have it and not need it; than to need it and not have it. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/15/2008 7:26:58 PM | For those not up on the subject of fully automatic, or Class III weapons, there are an estimated 160,000 legally held such weapons in the US today.
To the best of my knowledge, the vast majority of these weapons are held as investment vehicles, by those who own them merely for their exceptional return on investment. Last I heard, automatic weapons went up in value approximately 25% every year; sometimes even more, depending upon the type of weapon. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 8:06:24 AM |
For those not up on the subject of fully automatic, or Class III weapons, there are an estimated 160,000 legally held such weapons in the US today.
Lostcaus,
Thank You for that. I must have been thinking about just the state I live in. It's not something I really pay that much attention too.
I am more concerned about keeping the 2nd amendment whole and safe.
I can't understand how people that claim to be intelligent don't understand the need to keep the right to own and bear arms safe. Must be they enjoy being told what to do and kept on a leash. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 8:24:25 AM | Crime starts in the human mind and heart.... and has NOTHING to do with guns! Murder, theft, robbery, rape and any other atrocity you can name have been perpetrated against others long before guns were invented.
I am a woman, I have a concealed carriers license and I carry a gun, a mean a.s.s gun too...it levels the playing field!
Thank God our founding fathers understood the value of gun ownership and that they did own them, what few they did own; had they not we'd still be under British rule. Because our founders saw it the right for people to protect themselves, their families and their holdings, as well as be able to provide meat for the table they built into the US constitution the amendment that says I have the right to bare arms.... What wise men they were!
If guns were controlled then those that owned them illegally, and there would be those who did, would oppress those of us that didn't own them...I say poppyc.o.c.k. to that~
Thank God for the NRA! | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 8:27:23 AM | | I believe that a person would be hard pressed to find somone as ignorant of facts as koss78a. Koss78a were have you been, if you don't like guns don't buy one if you are going to comment about them please make your statements based on facts. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 8:57:21 AM |
^^^ actually, to get a CCW is a rather lengthy process. First you must go to a LE office and get your fingerprints done & sent in to that particular state's ATF-type bureau. They then run extensive checks to make sure you aren't wanted for anything, haven't done anything, and aren't a registered sex offender, wife beater, or general nutcase. Then EVERY gun you own MUST be listed under that license...all guns bought afterwards are automatically listed. There are VERY specific rules governing the use of force for CCW licensees...there's some latitude, but basically you have to operate under slightly tougher restrictions than a cop does. In most states a class is required and further classes mandated for renewal. The process is rather similar to Canada's Gun License, which is required for all gun owners...
^^^^ Now THAT almost makes sense. Not sure if any let alone many Americans would support the idea but the process for the CCW as described by bigshrek required BEFORE final sale of a CONCEALABLE weapon would have raised several red flags on that Cho A-hole at Va Tech. But given the problems that pop up from time to time with inter-departmental co-operation wouldn't the FBI be the logical choice rather than each states own system, with varying degrees of service and ability? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 9:06:45 AM | mmm....not the FBI, they've got enough on their plates. ATF links up with every state, and from what I hear they work VERY well with Florida's FDLE for background checks.
Kinda depends on the state's investigative system...some work pretty well, like Florida, some others...are less effective.
Technically, a LOT of weapons can be made concealable...especially on a guy my size. I've had up to 32 deadly weapons completely concealed at once, just to prove a point in one of my CJ classes years ago. As I took them off one by one I looked kinda like Sgt. Tackelberry from the "Police Academy" movies...the amount of things one can conceal in a normal military uniform should worry anyone who ever fights against the USA  | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 9:18:23 AM |
actually, to get a CCW is a rather lengthy process. First you must go to a LE office and get your fingerprints done & sent in to that particular state's ATF-type bureau. They then run extensive checks to make sure you aren't wanted for anything, haven't done anything, and aren't a registered sex offender, wife beater, or general nutcase. Then EVERY gun you own MUST be listed under that license...all guns bought afterwards are automatically listed. There are VERY specific rules governing the use of force for CCW licensees...there's some latitude, but basically you have to operate under slightly tougher restrictions than a cop does. In most states a class is required and further classes mandated for renewal. The process is rather similar to Canada's Gun License, which is required for all gun owners...
Umm....Shrek ? There's a rather deep irony (and wisdom) in that post of yours.
CCW license GOOD !
Trained / checked owners GOOD !
So where's the threat to THEIR Second Amendment rights by this "gun control" ?  | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 9:26:24 AM | | Well I'm assuming you don't want grenades "for home defense". But hunting rifles and skeet guns are a touch harder to conceal than say a TEC 9, and also less attractive to the majority of the criminal element. Modifications, I woud assume would also be coverred, so that someone buying a standard 12 ga then cutting down the barrel could be charged for this alone if they haven't gone a more rigorous route and done the the background checks etc to possess a concealable weapon. But the only person doing this would be the criminal element, so I don't see having something else to charge them with and have them serve a consecutive rather than concurrent sentence for as a bad thing. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 9:30:19 AM | | lol idiots... do your research, liberal media has ruined yer minds.... The american cities where it is LAW to have a gun in the house, are the safest places in the states.... Guns really are great, but for the world to be safe, either know one gets one, or everyone has one... Level playing field is best... Also who really cares, guns aint the problem gang members are problems, this certainly isnt a Caucasian problem, and hey if gang members wanna shoot each other, i say tax payers should buy them ammo.... We should have a national day where citizens go shoot random gang members with no punishment.... Does no 1 believe in thinning out the heard anymore? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 9:39:31 AM |
lol idiots... do your research, liberal media has ruined yer minds.... The american cities where it is LAW to have a gun in the house, are the safest places in the states.... Guns really are great, but for the world to be safe, either know one gets one, or everyone has one... Level playing field is best... Also who really cares, guns aint the problem gang members are problems, this certainly isnt a Caucasian problem, and hey if gang members wanna shoot each other, i say tax payers should buy them ammo.... We should have a national day where citizens go shoot random gang members with no punishment.... Does no 1 believe in thinning out the heard anymore?
Thin the herd....Let's start with those that don't know the difference between "no one" and "know one".
Caucasian problem, lol you give yourself away too clearly here. As for gang members shooting eachother left right and center, your lack of consideration for the families that may house these gang members but have nothing to do with gangs or the siblings that know gangs are a stupid path to follow sharing the same residence being injured in a driveby. Or here in Toronto Ms. Jane Creba caught in the crossfire between two gangs while out shopping boxing day hardly solves the problem of gang activity.
Good point MG. To date the only incident I'm aware of here involving a legally acquired handgun was with Kimveer Gill at Dawson. I still have questions how that guy didn't raise enough flags to bring his stability into question. But overall one event in a country of 30 million or so is easier to swallow than the alternatives. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 7/16/2008 10:32:05 AM | | you are correct that the usa is no longer the top of the wish list of foreigners wanting to live there.its in fact the united kindom,where anyone,including some of saddams henchmen can come and live,with no questions asked,who can milk my country for all they can,they will house you,give you benefits,even pay for furniture and transport for you if you decide you want to work.as a result hard working british folk get tax rises,less jobs,opurtunities in general.all thanks to the european human rights charter.your lucky you have the right to bear arms,we in england dont even have a right to vote if we want to join europe.im not european,im english,what has europe ever done for the uk ?as soon as hitlers war machine came a rolling,they fell like a pack of cards.long live freedom,but never confuse the right to vote as the same as the right to choose. | |
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