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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/22/2009 6:44:44 PM | I dislike guns. I did, however, have a fascination for them when I was younger. My dad required both my sistere and I to take a gun safety course before he would let us have bb guns. Basically there was some testing but it was mainly target shooting. I did pretty good, but it taught me nothing about how to take care of a gun or to be able to load or use a regular gun which dad thought it would be for.
I have always been mildly for gun control though I knew it was unrealistic because of the second amendment. However a recent article that I saw on this site has made me rethink some of that.
The idea that two towns could go in different directions, one larger town going for gun control and another smaller town requiring gun ownership in an angry response caused crime in both towns to dramatically change. In the town with gun control, crime dramatically rose whereas the town which required gun ownership had a 75% drop in crime. Even the people who instituted the laws were shocked.
I considered that the idea of owning a gun would be an incentive to actually break in and steal the gun but if everyone were required to own a gun it might lose its appeal. HHmmmm, it really made me think.... | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/23/2009 10:37:25 AM | Guns DON'T kill people, people DO. It's a fact, and you cannot refute it. You can call me all the names you want, insult me any way you can think of (and you've been quite creative), but you can't change the facts.
Are guns lethal, benign, or somewhere in between?
Which is it, TS? Take your pick. It's a simple, straightforward, and honest question. If you refuse to answer, I won't have to "insult" you. There's nothing personal about it. Your slogan is either honest or it isn't. Take your pick. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/23/2009 11:45:24 AM |
If you refuse to answer, I won't have to "insult" you.
You don't have to be insulting at all, unless you don't have a rational case.
Are guns lethal, benign, or somewhere in between?
By themselves, benign. In the hands of a human being, potentially lethal.
Get it now?
Guns don't kill people, people do. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/23/2009 5:33:24 PM |
Guns don't kill people, people do.
It's true. Unfortunately even armed little people do, as in this tragic case in my neck of the woods that's been in the news lately. Kid's eleven years old. Recall Obama and the Dems got hell here in Pennsylvania for cracks about people "clinging to their guns and religion" in the primary season last spring. (Speaking of the religion part, I understand the kid may be charged with double homicide: one count for the mom, one for her 8-1/2 month fetus.)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29343766/
[…]
Got the shotgun for Christmas
Brown got the youth-sized shotgun as a Christmas present, and used it to win a turkey shoot on Valentine's Day.
After shooting Houk, the boy ran to get on a school bus with the 7-year-old [the victim's daughter], who saw him toss something from his pocket on the ground, Bongivengo said. Police later found a spent 20-gauge shotgun shell at that spot.
[...]
I don't spend a lot of time arguing on either side of this issue. But something went wrong here, huh? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/23/2009 8:42:02 PM | If they are potentially lethal in the hands of people, then just like any other piece of machinery that can be potentially lethal in the wrong or untrained hands, a case could be made that guns should be regulated so as to keep them out of those hands.
At best, the slogan you defend begs the question. That question being: What is the appropriate way to address the lethal potential while preserving the right to bear?
Could that kid in Pennsylvania or the Santa Shooter, or the other murder-suicides among people who had no previous criminal record have been prevented without infringing on the rights of responsible gun owners? If so, how? Those are my questions, and they are reasonable ones. "Guns don't kill, people do" is not an answer to anything. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/23/2009 9:15:05 PM |
... a case could be made that guns should be regulated ...
Regulated by whom? The essential point of civilian gun possession is that arms exist dispersed among the population WITHOUT the knowledge of government. That is a restraint, however small, on domestic despotism. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/23/2009 9:23:12 PM |
Regulated by whom? The essential point of civilian gun possession is that arms exist dispersed among the population WITHOUT the knowledge of government. That is a restraint, however small, on domestic despotism.
Well except that it doesn't work. I mean really look at the Domestic groups within the USA, and look at which president they got upset about, and ask yourself were they really concerned about anybodies rights to anything besides guns? The militia groups certainly weren't 1st and 2nd amendment fans. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/23/2009 10:50:37 PM | ... a case could be made that guns should be regulated ... Regulated by whom? The essential point of civilian gun possession is that arms exist dispersed among the population WITHOUT the knowledge of government. That is a restraint, however small, on domestic despotism.
Exactly. That's what makes the denial of a gun's lethality so stupid. People also have a right not to be unduly menaced by neighbors weilding guns.
So ... you tell me. What's appropriate and reasonable and what isn't when it comes to balancing the right to bear against the right not to get shot at?
If you don't tell me what's reasonable, I'm sure the gun grabbers will be more than happy to weigh in with something more substantive than a thinly veiled lie like, "Guns don't kill." That's my entire point.
Think it through or don't, but if you don't, don't come whining to me when they take your guns away. Vigilance requires a bit more of us than a catchy, meaningless slogan. If you want to keep your rights, you have to engage in reasonable dialogue with those whose views do not appear to agree with your own.
If you insist on making everything into a fight, people will figure it out after a while, stop talking to you, and just do what they think is best without regard for your input. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/24/2009 3:15:26 AM | This leads me a bit off topic, but I can't resist:
Vigilance requires a bit more of us than a catchy, meaningless slogan. If you want to keep your rights, you have to engage in reasonable dialogue with those whose views do not appear to agree with your own.
If you insist on making everything into a fight, people will figure it out after a while, stop talking to you, and just do what they think is best without regard for your input.
That is so true. It is important to engage in dialogue with the most threatening of enemies, not just with your friends. That is what it is so dumb for Bush type politicians to refuse to talk to those they oppose. It is you most intransigent enemies you most need to give attention to. Even if they won;t listen to you, you can listen to them and you will learn something.
In the case of the gun control people, the need for us liberty lovers is to study them and fund out what is driving them and that begins with hearing them, not polarizing the situation into a "them and us" mode. That is the mistake currently being made by the NRA. Instead of demonizing Obama they need to aim for a win-win outcome, not a win-lose outcome. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 2/25/2009 11:42:10 AM | The militia groups certainly weren't 1st and 2nd amendment fans.
Evidence, Charles?
Exactly. That's what makes the denial of a gun's lethality so stupid.
No more stupid than lying about what others have posted, Ace. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/5/2009 12:07:44 PM | And the Battle Rages on,.....
At Least their are some people that are willing to put their Money , where their mouth is.
As I have mentioned,......the Minority, of people, known as the "Anti Gun" Crowd, wants to keep the "Majority" known as the "Pro Gun" crowd,...from having Guns,....
because as we all know,........"GUNS KILL PEOPLE"!
STATS, have been mentioned that Auto Accidents kill more people every year,....that Lung Cancer, from Smoking,...kills more people every year,.....that Drunk Drivers, kill more people every year,...etc,.
Its a shame, that anyone has to die, be it from an Auto accicdent, or at the wrong end of a gun....or as suggested,....from not being trained in the proper use,......
There is growing concern in the Pro Gun Crowd, of ever increasing Laws being aimed at prevent, legal, law abiding Citizens the ability, to own, a Firearm.
New Lesigslation is being passed at every corner, to make it harder, and harder for anyone to buy a Firearm,.......or Ammunition !
just look at the ,......
AMMUNITION ACCOUNTABILTY ACT,...
http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm
and maybe you'll see why Pro Gunners see this as another steping stone to remove Gun Rights from law abiding citizens,........
We need more More Laws against the Criminals, who use Guns to commit their Crimes.
Not more laws to make it harder for the Pro Gun Crowd to own and keep a gun, and Ammo.
Like I've said before,.....If an individual feels the need to learn, or even brush up on Firearms Safety,..theres plenty of places available,......
Jeff Cooper used to be the best !
Theres plenty of places still availabe,...and FRONTSITE, is now considered,
the TOP NOTCH, of Firearms Safety.
Most everyone of these following Links,....are basicly the same,....theres dozens of others too,......check out these, and if you'll do a little research, you'll find that this man has even converted "Anti Gunners" to being "Pro Gun".
MILLIONAIRE PATRIOT WANTS
YOU ARMED AND TRAINED
https://www.frontsight.com/free-gun.asp
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=149495;article=122725;
http://www.travelclickz.com/news/millionaire_patriot_wants_americans_armedtrained-o-282878.html
http://ronpaul.meetup.com/281/messages/boards/thread/6236887
http://www.survivalblog.com/ignatius-piazza/millionaire-patriot.html
http://www.websitesinaflash.com/front-sight/millionaire-patriot.html | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/5/2009 5:40:53 PM | From one of the articles cited above:
A drive-by shooting in his quiet upscale neighborhood brought Dr. Piazza to the realization that all the firearms in his gun safe were worthless if one didn't know how to use them when they were needed most--to defend one's life. Ignatius Piazza began a firearms training quest that eventually lead to him becoming the second man in the world to secure the coveted "Four Weapons Combat Master" certification in august 1993. Shortly thereafter, Dr. Ignatius Piazza created Front Sight Firearms Training Institute on leased firearms training facilities near Bakersfield CA in April of 1996.
I like his perspective and follow-through. A gun without training is still lethal, but pretty useless for self defense. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/8/2009 9:33:57 PM | To what extent government is accountable to its people is the extent that its people should be disarmed.
Human nature hasn't changed. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/8/2009 10:22:55 PM | Kudos ^^^^ on another really cool sounding slogan.
Care to elaborate with regard to the times in which we live? Maybe I'm thick, but sometimes I need background, explanation, context and all that tedious stuff. Forgive me if I fail to recognize a famous historical quote.
Thank you. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/11/2009 11:23:03 AM | Mind you, his training is expensive and is quite out of reach for the ordinary citizen...for those who can afford it, it's top of the line :)
Florida has a nice CCW training course which is rather comprehensive and not too expensive. It enhances the utilitarian nature of carrying and WHEN to use your weapon.
I believe in training, I do NOT believe in forced government training.
Cigarrettes kill more people than guns, cars, AIDS, and homicides by a factor of 1,267 to ONE. When are we going to totally ban those? | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/12/2009 8:37:15 PM | When someone deliberately sets out and succeeds in killing ten people or more in a single incident, with a pack of cigarettes ?
Btw, gun control doesn't mean "ban", it means controlling access to firearms to prevent those who should not have access to them from getting such access. 
As the recent incident in Germany proves, and some shooting sprees in my own country also proves, gun control cannot (and never will) eliminate such types of incidents - it can only reduce them. It's no accident that the country with some of the easiest access to firearms also has one of the worlds highest incidents of shooting sprees. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/13/2009 9:17:52 AM | It is not really strange that when gun laws come under attack almost on Que. some crazies around the world go nuts and shoot people. As it turns out now the police say the posts on the Internet of the German school kid are fake????
Police spokesman Klaus Hinderer said authorities were investigating whether an internet posting was faked after a search of Tim Kretschmer's computer showed no evidence of the posting in a chat room conversation, the Associated Press reported.
The post appeared in a chatroom about six hours before Kretschmer went on the rampage on Wednesday at the school in Winnenden, near Stuttgart.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25180482-12377,00.html
Then I found this site that says most if not all the crazies in the last few years that have shot people were on or going through withdrawal from antidepressants..........is it guns or pills that are the killers here?????
This is only part of the list
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php
Click on the blue 'What' to access a story. Click on a red column heading to sort the index by that column.
What -Drug- Date -Where -Additional
School Shooting Prozac WITHDRAWAL 2008-02-15 Illinois ** 6 Dead: 15 Wounded: Perpetrator Was in Withdrawal from Med & Acting Erratically
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 2005-03-24 Minnesota **10 Dead: 7 Wounded: Dosage Increased One Week before Rampage
School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2001-03-10 Pennsylvania **14 Year Old GIRL Shoots & Wounds Classmate at Catholic School
School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant 1995-10-12 South Carolina **15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers, Killing One: Then Kills Himself
School Shooting Med For Depression 2009-03-13 Germany **16 Dead Including Shooter: Probable Antidepressant Use: Shooter in Treatment For Depression
School Shooting Plot Med For Depression Withdrawal 2008-08-28 Texas **18 Year Old Plots a Columbine School Attack
School Shooting Anafranil Antidepressant 1988-05-20 Illinois **29 Year Old WOMAN Kills One Child: Wounds Five: Kills Self
School Shooting Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants 1999-04-20 Colorado **COLUMBINE: 15 Dead: 24 Wounded
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 1998-05-21 Oregon **Four Dead: Twenty Injured
School Shooting Antidepressant 2006-09-30 Colorado **Man Assaults Girls: Kills One & Self
School Machete Attack Med for Depression 2001-09-26 Pennsylvania **Man Attacks 11 Children & 3 Teachers at Elementary School
School Shooting Antidepressants 1992-09-20 Texas **Man, Angry Over Daughter's Report Card, Shoots 14 Rounds inside Elementary School
School Shooting Threat Med for Depression* 2004-10-19 New Jersey **Over-Medicated Teen Brings Loaded Handguns to School
School Shooting Antidepressant? 2007-04-18 Virginia **Possible SSRI Use: 33 Dead at Virginia Tech
School Shooting Antidepressant? 2002-01-17 Virginia **Possible SSRI Withdrawal Mania: 3 Dead at Law School
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 1992-01-30 Michigan **School Teacher Shoots & Kills His Superintendent at School
School Violence/Murder Antidepressants* 1998-05-04 New York **Sheriff's Deputy Shoots his Wife in an Elementary School
School Threat Antidepressants 2007-04-23 Mississippi **Student Arrested for Making School Threat Over Internet
School Suspension Lexapro Antidepressant 2007-07-28 Arkansas **Student Has 11 Incidents with Police During his 16 Months on Lexapro
School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-11-07 Finland **Student Kills 8: Wounds 10: Kills Self: High School in Finland
School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2004-02-09 New York **Student Shoots Teacher in Leg at School
School Threat Prozac Antidepressant 2008-01-25 Washington **Student Takes Loaded Shotgun & 3 Rifles to School Parking Lot: Plans Suicide
School Shooting Plot Med For Depression 1998-12-01 Wisconsin **Teen Accused of Plotting to Gun Down Students at School
School/Assault Zoloft Antidepressant 2006-02-15 Tennessee **Teen Attacks Teacher at School
School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 1999-04-16 Idaho **Teen Fires Gun in School
School Hostage Situation Paxil & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-15 Washington **Teen Holds Classmates Hostage with a Gun
School Hostage Situation Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2006-11-28 North Carolina **Teen Holds Teacher & Student Hostage with Gun
School Knife Attack Med for Depression 2006-12-06 Indiana **Teen Knife Attacks Fellow Student
School Shooting Celexa & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-19 California **Teen Shoots at Classmates in School
School Shooting Celexa Antidepressant 2006-08-30 North Carolina **Teen Shoots at Two Students: Kills his Father: Celexa Found Among his Personal Effects
School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 2003-05-31 Michigan **Teen Threatens School Shooting: Charge is Terrorism
School Violence Antidepressants 2005-02-09 Pennsylvania **Teen Uses Knife to Attack Fellow Classmate
School Stand-Off Zoloft Antidepressant 1998-04-13 Idaho **Teen [14 Years Old] in School Holds Police At Bay: Fires Shots
School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-10-12 Ohio **Teen [14 Years Old] School Shooter Possibly on Antidepressants or In Withdrawal | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/16/2009 10:56:33 AM | | I absolutely agree the candy store attitude to these types of medications is outrageous, I vote anyone needing these meds should be hospitalized in order to be allowed them, or they should be confined to the Home of the Doctor that writes the perscription, i can guarantee after living with a few people they give them to there will be much fewer doctors handing these puppies out!! Medicated Psyco people are the actual menace | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/16/2009 7:25:41 PM | I skimmed over this post so forgive me if I say something redundant.
I have asked cops who work on the street if they felt that banning all guns in the USA would make a difference. The answer is always no. I called in to a talk radio show a few years ago which had the police commissioner of Kern County ( Bakersfield) as a guest. I asked if there ever was a survey done by ANYONE that asked the same question of the same people. The answer was nothing that he knew of. He went on to say that, from what he saw, the admin people in the police were in favor of making all guns illegal and all the cops out in the street against it. If there was a study like this then please fill me in. I never saw it put forth.
It is astonishing that no one has ever gone to the most experienced people and asked an open question on how to reduce gun crime. I would not only talk to cops but to criminals in prison and anyone who has sold guns. Why has no one demanded this of the media?
Many of us would shop around for a good accountant but then throw a random idea out of our asses about life and death situations! Ideas like limiting the calibre or banning ammunition or charging $100 a round. If you arent laughing at the previous sentence then you should examine your sources of information. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/16/2009 7:38:36 PM | where4
"To what extent government is accountable to its people is the extent that its people should be disarmed"
It's not a quote that I know of, just the first thought that popped into my head when I read this thread. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/16/2009 8:31:29 PM | Matt,
I'm not sure I like the quote if it says what I think it does. Perhaps if it said, "could afford to forego arms," I might agree. The English seem to do well in that regard these days.
However, I do think that your idea about surveying the people who are most experienced with gun crime to get some insight into policy makes a lot more sense than anything else I've heard here, including my own remarks.
Brilliant and well said! | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/18/2009 8:40:28 PM |
STATS, have been mentioned that Auto Accidents kill more people every year,....that Lung Cancer, from Smoking,...kills more people every year,.....that Drunk Drivers, kill more people every year,...etc,.
And every one of those activities is covered by regulations that get periodically tweaked to improve effectiveness. But when speed limits are changed you don't hear outcries that it's the first step to taking all our cars away. When cigarette taxes get raised you don't hear outcries that jackbooted thugs will be breaking down doors to confiscate cigarettes. When drunk driving penalties are increased you don't hear insinuations that we're headed for another prohibition era.
But propose ANY change in gun laws and the NRA fanatics come out in force with claims that banning armor piercing ammo is just the first step to ultimately taking away Junior's BB gun and Gramps' 12 gauge. Suggest keeping guns out of the hands of the criminally insane and we're subjected to another chorus of "out of my cold dead hands".
Realistically, we'll have some sort of gun laws for the indefinite future. Realistically we'll have the reasonable right to bear arms for just as long. The perfect law on anything has yet to be written. So it sure would be nice to be able to have reasonable discourse on how to improve our gun regulations without all the fanatical vitriol.
Just an observation...
Dave | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/19/2009 11:54:15 AM | The Best Gun law we have ever had states that,
Our Rights,.....
"Shall NOT be Infringed" !
Gun Laws,....DO NOT,...keep the guns out of the hands of people that shouldnt have them,...THE CRIMINALS.
Yet more and more Gun Legeslation keeps limiting, and prevent everyday ordanary law abiding Citizens the availabilty to own a Firearm.
How do you take away Gun Owners Rights ?
Just like cutting down a Tree......ONE CHOP, at a time.
You first BAN guns that supposedly have no stated use in modern society,...such as a so called Assult Weapon,.....
You ban,...High Capacity Magazine Clips ,....
You BAN,....One Chop at a time.
Listen to, and view this Video, where it states EXACTLY why Honest, Decent Law Abiding American Citizens, have the right, to own Assualt Weapons,.....or any other Firearm of their choice.
Suzanna Gratia-Hupp: What the Second Amendment is REALLY For
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675
Texas state representative, Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, whose parents were killed by an insane gunman while her gun was out in the car, gives very moving and bold testimony about the REAL reason that the second amendment was designed to protect our God-given right to keep and bear arms.
"As far as these,...so called, assault weapons,...you say that they don't have any,.....
Defense Use,........
You tell that to the guy that I saw on a Video Tape of the LA RIOTS,...standing upon his rooftop protecting his property and his life from an entire mob with one of these so called assault weapons ,....tell me,... that he didn't have a legitimate self defense use .
Just one final statement,...
I'm,...I've been sitting here,...getting more and more fed up, with all of this talk, about these pieces of machinery,...having no legitimate sporting purpose,....no legitimate hunting purpose,...
People,...that is not the point,..of the Second Amendment,...
The Second Amendment is not about Duck Hunting,.........and I know I'm not,..gonna make ,..very many friends saying this,........but its about our right,..all of our rights,... to be able to protect ourselves ,...from all of you guys up there ! | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/19/2009 5:24:48 PM | The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow us citizens to hold the troops at bay long enough for them to figure out who it is they really should be protecting, and from whom.
I can't yell FIRE in a crowded theater, and you can't menace me with your gun.
You have a right to bear and keep, but not to be irresponsible with your guns.
Each of those little chops comes in reaction to some outrageuous situation in which the misuse of a gun created a climate of fear. Creating such a climate is not within your rights.
So, if you want to put those chops to an end, don't just yell at the people who are afraid. Yell at the people who have been irresponsible enough to give gun grabbers justification to keep chopping away. | |
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| gun control in the usa
Posted: 3/19/2009 8:50:44 PM |
Gun Laws,....DO NOT,...keep the guns out of the hands of people that shouldnt have them,...THE CRIMINALS.
If one steps across the boarder into Canada, a different reality seems to exist from the American one. Gun crimes, although they exist, are quite rare. This would seem to fly in the face of the logic of the NRA, and Canada's experience is replicated in many other countries that see the right of gun ownership to also carry with it responsibilities.
It's also a cultural and historical myth, that Americans are both blessed and cursed with. As I've said many times, what works in other Western democracies won't work in the USA, simply because of those two myths. Even in cultural and artistic terms, on a very deep and unique level, firearms (and their use) carry a deep iconic value there not found in any other Western industrial culture in anywhere near the same depth.
Again and again that image of armed Americans predominates your culture. From the birth of your nation, the echoes of gunshots can be heard over and over again, from Bunker Hill, Pickett's Charge, the Wild West, the Roaring Twenties, and straight through to the Die Hard and Terminator films - firearms are as American as apple pie and baseball. 
As long as Americans kill fellow Americans, even in great numbers, it's deemed acceptable. That may seem outrageous to some, but ask yourself how long such a pile of dead bodies would be tolerated if done by foreigners inside Americas borders ?
Looking at 2004 figures from the CDC, about 81 Americans died per day, and 176 others were injured with firearms. Roughly half of the dead were suicides.
http://tinyurl.com/2sf4l6
Now compare that to some figures in wartime :
By comparison, the Vietnam War had a death rate of 18 U.S. soldiers per day for 7½ years, and World War II had a rate of 221 combat deaths per day for four years, according to military historian Albert Nofi.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-20-cover-usat_x.htm
Four times the deaths of Vietnam, per day and on a non-stop basis, and it's easily acceptable to most Americans - again due to that myth.
That's how strong and prevalent that myth is. | |
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