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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 11:41:40 AM | I stand corrected marathon man. You are very right about the older singers and history. Shame on me. However, the dressing like wanna be gangsters, the "hood" hand signals and words that are offensive and used by the kids into the genre of Hip Hop worry me, especially coming from little white boys. It doesn't suit them at all. I don't think pants down to the knees, backwards hats, XXXXXXXXL jerseys and bandanas is very fashionable either. I don't even think the Hip Hop artists were hoping that would happen, it just ended up being a by product of the music. As for being cool, who says that you have to listen to Hip Hop to be cool or any other kind of music to be cool? Isn't cool when you listen to what you want, and be yourself regardless of what is popular? All music (except offensive rap), is to be appreciated for what it is because someone put their soul into making it. Musicians are artists, regardless of the type of art we personally like. As for dancing, Hip Hop is not the only music you can dance to well. There are many genres that work well for dancing, it all depends on what kind of dancing you are into and that too is a personal choice. You might not like it, but someone else does and that doesn't make them right and you wrong or vice versa. it just makes us different.You're also right about Tom Jones, he sucks big time.....   I was merely making a statement that he is making a comeback. As for being too drunk or stoned, the new generation, (including hip hoppers), does drugs too. They do synthetic drugs like Ecstasy which let them dance all night long and die in the morning, or stone out on Crystal meth or whatever the newest designer drug product happens to be, just so they can get that "special rush to feel the music." Drugs cross all boundaries, not just heavy metal lovers. | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 11:56:25 AM | | Well metal and hip hop have alot in common, even if they sound totally different. And some places only play metal and I dont feel like leaving. And no I don't think hip-hops dead, but the corperations have killed alot of it by pushing right-wing biased views through the writings they write that the singers in turn sing (I'm talking about pop radio hip hop, not real hip hop here). Music doesnt really die, if hip-hop fades in popularity then another form will appear that will be popular. I say that parents shouldnt object to letting there kids listen to hip-hop, especially if the parents listen to Rush Limbaugh or Bill O' Reilly, who say much more socially inappropriate things than any "obscene" rapper. | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 12:00:04 PM | | Very true. I think that Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'reilly are far more dangerous to our world than any kind of music could ever be. | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 2:24:02 PM | Would any of you hip hop fans like to tell me about the message
behind most of the songs we hear played at the clubs?
I went to a dance club on Saturday
And, I was listening to the lyrics to all "the popular tracks"
and, I think I was starting to get a headache from rolling my eyes so much
every song was either about some hoochie mama
telling the boys how she was "gonna do them"
or some "Real playa for sure" talking about his unit and some chicks bootie
I realize there are few examples of hip hop with positive informed lyrics
(so please do not bother spending too much time posting about that)
but, the VAST majority of it SUCKS LYRIC WISE.
Please feel free to post some hip hop lyrics here and we can discuss
maybe post the lyrics to a 50 cent song here
about how he is pimpin or a pimp etc......
really great stuff....great message......love how it talks about women
then maybe post some lyrics to a Pearl Jam song
and let's also discuss it's message
I think this would be a rather embarassing experiment for you hip hop fans
thoughts?
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 3:34:27 PM | Thank you guitar man. You have made some excellent points. You obviously understand the soul of music. I was starting to feel "uncool" because I don't care for Hip Hop and I don't want people thinking my nice son is some scary punk a*** delinquent because we are judged by our tastes and our styles and our friends. Whether it's right or wrong, it happens. Pearl Jam and Collective Soul are two bands that come to mind with positive messages. I have yet to hear Collective Soul sing about pimpin or bootie, thank goodness. When they start to, let me off the planet ok? | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 3:39:38 PM |
However, the dressing like wanna be gangsters, the "hood" hand signals and words that are offensive and used by the kids into the genre of Hip Hop worry me, especially coming from little white boys. It doesn't suit them at all.
Dressing like a wannabe gangster is certainly not something that is confined to Hip Hop.Although,I wonder if all or most gangsters dress alike Do Mafia,Bloods,Latin Kings,aryannation and Triad members all dress alike? Similar? Now,more seriously some lyrics of some songs are objectionable to ALL! HOW would they(the majority of words) POSSIBLE suite little white boys any better or worse than others?   This same thing can be said however of elements of Rock....cursing and foul language is certainly no more common or worse in some elements of Hip Hop than they are in some elements of Rock. I trust no 1 is foolish enough to dispute this. The same is true of style of dress.Sagging isn't something all people who listen or even perform Hip Hop are into. Are all people into metal satanist? Piereced? Tattooed?multicolor haired? Spiked? Alcoholics? Drug addicts? Womanizers? Now YOU may not like the look of oversized t-shirts and caps worn backwards or bandanas......it would seem that is fashionable to MOST. More to the point,some may not like the "grunge"look.....so what? Does that make those who are into the "grunge look"backwards fashion rejects? Fashion is an individual thing.BTW,many HipHop artist have entered the fashion world and done VERY VERY well.THe same simply cannot be said about the "metal look",based upon the opinion of the masses,certainly the "hip hop look" is FAR more fashionable.
All music (except offensive rap),
Are there no "offensive" types of Metal?
Drugs cross all boundaries, not just heavy metal lovers.
You CLEARLY missed the point.It goes to the gross generalizations and stereotypes you made.My point?ALL of these elements you talk negatively about in Hip Hop are JUST as prominent in that in which you seem to endorse.
As far as dance is concerned...I never said Hip Hop is the ONLY form of music to which people can dance.Yet, my POINT on THAT is still APPARENT. Put people who grew up listening to mainly metal and put them in a club and you GENERALLY get LOADS of    for those who watch  | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 3:52:54 PM | I grew up with many kinds of music, metal being a big part, simply because of my age and the era I grew up in, but when I go to a club, I don't , I dance. I can dance to almost any style of music and as for accusing me of generalizing, isn't that what you're doing when you say that people who grew up on metal and go to a club just ?
That's no different than me saying that Hip Hoppers go to a club packing metal so they can show how "Bad" they are. As for the fashion, you're right. It is different to everyone, and yes, Hip Hoppers have made many strides in the fashion industry but so did bell bottom pants and disco wear and the reason fashion changes so often is because it's so ugly. | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 3:59:14 PM | My generalization was a PARODY made due to your frequent generalizations and stereotypes. Still, you didn't answer my question or even address my point about what "suits" white boys.
Actually, you have not addressed any of my questions.
BTW,"disco" lasted 5yrs........how long has Hip Hop lasted? | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 4:39:32 PM | | The 'gangster wannabe clothing' came out by way of the african american style of dress. It came from the african american musicians and jocks who grew up in the ghettos and projects and then went on to get out and do something positive for themselves. That is why it is a popular way to dress for Hip Hoppers. It was designed by them in the first place. The Mafia wears suits, the Latinos like their silk shirts and casual dress pants, and sometimes the young ones dress in the "saggy look" as well. the Aryan Nation are just a bunch of uneducated hillbilly thugs and shouldn't even warrant a spot on any fashion scale and the Triads also like their suits with some of the young ones also dressing "saggy". As for the comment "little white boys", it wasn't meant to mean that it suits little black boys either, it was just me saying that it suits them even less than the black kids because it wasn't a style that was created by us for us, and since I have a little white boy, I used him as reference. I don't think it suits little black kids, yellow kids or purple kids any better either, but it is the fashion style for the African American group and they can carry it off better and with more style than "little white boys." As for foul lyrics in metal... absolutely, some of it is pure trash and there is a school of thought that says some heavy metal bands can create suicidal tendencies in vulnerable kids, just as listening to a song about "knocking some b**** down and then offing the cops might make a kid more prone to violence. Both kinds of music can be construed as positive and negative. I do think however that there is more negativity in more songs in Hip Hop than there is in rock. Perhaps it's just a sign of the times, perhaps not. I do concur that some Hip Hop songs have positive messages. I particularily like the song called Hope and the song called keeping it real, both done by Shaggy. As for saying you only made the comment about metal lovers in bars , it didn't come across as a parody of my alleged generalization, not even subtly, it came across as generalizing. I didn't mean to insult you or spark controversy, I merely was trying to have a reasonable and intelligent debate. Perhaps the thoughts were right, but the follow through came out wrong. In peace....... BTW, my son wears saggy pants and backwards hats.... I don't like it but I don't stifle him either. I beleive I have answered all the questions you asked. Perhaps you don't agree and that is ok too. We can both exist peacefully on the planet and not always agree. | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/24/2005 8:27:51 PM | marathon man
here is the deal I am very knowledgable about music
I own a professional recording studio
a guitar shop
and have been in bands for 20 years
ie
I do this music thing for a living.......
so please quit with the "obviously not knowledgable thing"
I just plain do not like hip hop and the whole club culture thing
It is fake and a meat market to boot
most hip hop is a soundtrack to hooking up with hoochie mamas
and you know that ......dude
I do not need to address you on this stuff
because I am very sure about my opinion
yes you can quote the lyrics to "the message"
or public enemy or arrested development
they are great examples
but the VAST majority of club music is a meat market soundtrack
I know I listened to it my friend
I find the genre to lack substance ......period
I mean the vast majority of them do not even play instruments
and yes they sell clothes because they have to
and it is all part of that going to the club mentallity
which is as shallow as a rain puddle
here is the deal
like hip hop.... that is great
I don't care
but I have a point
and I have had this arguement with many urban types before
their arguements are always rather weak at best
and they feel they need to defend hip hop
don't
just go listen to it and enjoy it....go dancing
I mean you should not care about my opinion......
so what if I think hip hop and dance music is shallow
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/25/2005 12:12:56 AM | This thread just goes in circles.
It's like hockey-fans and soccer-fans arguing about which sport is more of a sport.
Please feel free to post some hip hop lyrics here and we can discuss
maybe post the lyrics to a 50 cent song here
about how he is pimpin or a pimp etc......
really great stuff....great message......love how it talks about women
then maybe post some lyrics to a Pearl Jam song
and let's also discuss it's message
I think this would be a rather embarrassing experiment for you hip hop fans
OR, we could compare a KELLY OSBORNE song to a COMMON or MOSDEF song..
DO YOU SEE THE BIAS? Every genre has artists that lack substance.
You are intentionally mismatching. It's an unfair comparison.
LOOK,
If you go to the CLUB you are going to hear trash.
If you watch MTV you are going to hear trash. You should ALREADY know this.
You say "the VAST majority of it SUCKS LYRIC WISE." ..You ARE ignorant.
You haven't listened to enough hiphop to know what you are talking about.
You SAY you have listened to it. BUT NO, YOU HAVEN'T. I can tell by your statements.
ALL YOU HAVE HEARD IS THE MAINSTREAM GARBAGE. AT the CLUB, on MTV..
EVERYTHING PLAYED AT THE CLUB OR ON MTV LACKS SUBSTANCE. Don't you know???
That is like saying "Rock is dead".. And using "SIMPLEPLAN" as the example. Ignorance.
I own a professional recording studio, a guitar shop, and have been in bands for 20 years
I do this music thing for a living.......
so please quit with the "obviously not knowledgeable thing"
You misunderstood what MarathonMan said. HE SAID....
"Your attempt at making a point is faulted by your lack of knowledge on the topic & obvious BIAS."
Meaning you lack knowledge about HIPHOP. Which obviously you do. It's OBVIOUS.
..And SO WHAT if you own a guitar shop and a recording studio?
If someone owns 10 recording studios are they a better judge of music than you??
Owning a guitar shop and recording studio doesn't automatically qualify u as a better critic.
It's not like your ears hear something that everyone else's ears don't.
You don't automatically get some magical glasses to see music better.
I remember you saying:
"It seems to me this debate is between the musicians and the non-musicians"
You act like musicians know something that hiphop fans dont?
Like since you play an instrument, you have better (higher-class) judgment??
I play 4 instruments.
I work with other musicians DAILY.
I work at a recording studio 5 days a week.
SO WHAT? Playing an instrument can be learned by a pre-schooler. BIG DEAL,.
Owning a studio can be accomplished by someone with NO knowledge of music.
And I know a guy that has played in bands for 30 years. He LOVES to hiphop.
Anyways..
You haven't listened to enough hiphop to know what you are talking about.
You always say the "vast majority", but you have only listened to 2%.
Because u keep saying rap is all about hoe.s, and pimping, and yada yada...
IF YOU ACTUALLY LISTENED, you would realize "the MAJORITY" ISN'T about that AT ALL.
AND DON'T SAY YOU HAVE LISTENED. Because you haven't. It is obvious by your statements.
And If you compare 50 Cent to Pearl Jam, you are obviously biased.
I think the lyrics in hiphop songs have MORE substance than other genres.
(just NOT the hiphop songs that YOU listen to. You listen to what 14yrold girls listen to)
So please quit using the Top10 as examples. EVERYTHING on the top10 is trash. (rap or not rap)
Your examples consistently show ignorance and lack of knowledge about hip hop.
And again, your studio and guitar shop means nothing, and is irrelevant to the subject of hiphop.
Anyways.. This is a never ending argument..
I just see the same stuff being repeated over and over...
Why are we going in circles? | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/25/2005 12:16:54 AM | | In my opinion and with all due respect Marathon Man, It's not a misconception or misunderstanding at all. It does have it's humble beginnings in New York African American ghettoes. Hip Hop fashion got it's start in the South Bronx along with 4 other elements of Hip Hop culture: graffiti, rap, breakdancing and DJ'ing. It was never meant to be a trend, it started out as an expression of a new point of view. Rebelling against disco and looking for an alternative to gang life, Hip Hop heads created a lifestyle that was more in touch with the street, the community and day to day African American life. Clothes expressed individuality but also had a functional purpose. Fat laced Pumas and sweatsuits looked "fly" but they were also perfect to wear while creating and performing difficult breakdance moves. Colorful clothing seemed to reflect the colorful graffiti murals that were popping up all over the city. MC's B-boys and girls and DJ's style of dress immediately identified them as unique but still down to earth. The bottom line was making the most out of limited resources. Like a DJ who has a melody in his head and finds the record to express that, B- boys and girls created a unique sense of style that required imagination in the face of limited resources. The B-boy crowd was different from the middle class African Americans who were represented at Pete DJ Jones parties. There was no dress code at a B-boy party, they were usually younger and wore tennis shoes, saggy jeans, sweatsuits etc.... When rappers started to get national recognition it was this archetypal look that the rest of the world saw. It wasn't until guys like Run DMC, Sugar Hill Gang and Kurtis Blow started to make real money that the world began to copy the Hip Hop style. With rap music becoming more popular through music videos, it introduced it's sense of style to the masses. African American designers had instant clientele, not only in the rap industry but also with many people coming of age in the Hip Hop culure. Given that New York City has the highest population of African Americans in the world it was no surprise that the main goal of the designers was to tap into the huge spending potential of this market. Coupled with guaranteed exposure from major rap acts wearing their clothing, low budget companies such as Cross Colors started to make alot of money. When the rest of the business world saw this they decided to jump on the bandwagon too. Many New York African American owned companies such as Karl Kani went international and are still around today. Other companies not of the hip hop culture, (such as Tommy Hilfiger), manged to get a piece of the market. The more popular rap became the more profitable it became for companies to offer the same looks people saw on their favorite rappers. Now, it's no longer an expression of a new point of view because most of the kids nowadys dress like that. That's not individuality, that's conforming. It's been totally over marketed to the general public and now brings up negative images instead of the positive ones it started with. When the African American (or in this case the African-Canadian), kids see white kids dressed like this, or listening to Hip Hop, very often times they accuse them of "posing." This is why I say it suits little white boys less. Alot of black kids also think that way therefore I am correct,( I beleive), in saying that Hip Hop was not designed by us for us. There is nothing racial there, just fact. To tell me I am ignorant and to laugh at me is an insult. (That behaviour should be left to the politicians as they are very good at being arrogant and high handed and real debate without insults should be left for the rest of us). I do think about things before I say them and I do get my facts from reliable sources, (some from within the Hip Hop community itself). I did not insult you or tell you that you were ignorant for laughing at me just because you didn't agree with my view. I respected your opinion because it's yours, not because I agreed with it. I only wish that you could have done the same. now that I've said what I wanted to say, I won't post another message about this. There are more important things to discuss. Let's just say most mainstream music sucks, regardless of what genre it is and leave it at that. | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/25/2005 12:50:33 AM | mossberg
IT is cool to hear from a producer guy
and yes I listen to lots of music
I think common /mos def are cool
digable planets
public enemy
....etc( I am just being very opinionated to stimulate a debate ,I am not that bad in real life)
I just do not like hip hop anymore it is tired
and yes my opinion is very valid as a musician
ie
you are probably an urban music producer right?
why don't you tell me your general method of building a track
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/25/2005 2:29:44 AM |
here is the deal I am very knowledgable about music
I own a professional recording studio
a guitar shop
and have been in bands for 20 years
ie
I do this music thing for a living.......
so please quit with the "obviously not knowledgable thing"
I never said you were not knowledgable about the general topic of music.....simply not about Hip Hop(which is the topic). More to the point that you make OBVIOUS baised statements without relevance and off balance. This has been noted and pointed out by yet another poster. Do I care about your opinion? To the point of pointing out its falacies.....YES. Outside of that? NO.
Based upon your statements about your experience it would seem wiser to state that the little Hip Hop you've heard has mostly been commercialized party hits.
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/25/2005 2:29:57 AM |
Guitarman100,
No, I am not an urban music producer.
I am a Mixing Engineer at a professional facility.
I also work as a sound tech for a band I won't mention. ..I also play in a band.
I also worked as a consultant for acoustic structural design and treatments.
I also teach music theory, am a vocal coach, and give classes on violin and piano.
I also dabble in COMPOSING music. Not producing. (but i do offer advice on production)
The compositions I create are played using REAL instruments and tracked at the studio.
I could probably teach YOU a few things. ..But you know what they say about old dogs..
..But why would you care about the general method of building a track?
Are you trying to prove that you know more than everyone else?
This thread is about HIPHOP. Not about me proving my "worth" to YOU. So stay on topic.
If you want, we can start a thread about production, mixing etc.. I'll SCHOOL u. (i said it)
Again, I am not a producer.. But I could still tell you..
But what do I have to prove to you????
I already know that you are biased. And you intent is to demonstrate that urban music is "simple".
You are uninformed. You are using general stereotypes to base your arguments.
You probably expect me to say that I build the entire track in the digital domain? right?
Ignorance never helped anyone.
But back on topic.. No hiphop won't die. It will out-live your genre.
haha. I don't care. Single-syllable rhymes are sooo simple and unchallenging.
Anyways.. Good luck with your music.
OHHH EDIT: I FORGOT TO MENTION, I ALSO WRITE HIPHOP RHYMES.
I HOPE YOU GO BUY MY COMMERCIAL HIPHOP CD!!!! MARCH 2006!!
Oh PS- Hiphop is more challenging to write than the songs I write for my band.
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/25/2005 2:52:08 AM |
The 'gangster wannabe clothing' came out by way of the african american style of dress. It came from the african american musicians and jocks who grew up in the ghettos and projects and then went on to get out and do something positive for themselves. That is why it is a popular way to dress for Hip Hoppers.
This was what you posted and it is false and part of a misconception you have.Perhaps from living in BC and googling info in bits and peices.I can easily find the point in which you used your own words instead of that which you copied in this last post.
When the African American (or in this case the African-Canadian), kids see white kids dressed like this, or listening to Hip Hop, very often times they accuse them of "posing." This is why I say it suits little white boys less. .....There is nothing racial there, just fact. To tell me I am ignorant and to laugh at me is an insult.
1)African American in its purest form means mixed "race"people of African descent in the Americas........USA,Canada,Puerto Rico,Cuba,Jamaica all fit into the general umbrella,although its primarily used and embraced by AfricanAmericans USA.
2)Style of dress is a part of culture that "suits" ANYONE who embraces it! A western suit looks just as good on me as it does Conan Obrian No, BETTER The very notion that a modern style of dress suits an ethnic group better than another IS ignorant. I would NEVER call you ignorant...just some of your statements.
3) You initially were refering to caps worn backwards,bandanas,oversized shirts and saggy pants....NOT Bboy gear,nor the many other styles of Hip Hop clothing/Urban wear which is what the section you googled was about.
After all,Run DMC,Curtis Blow,Sugar Hill Gang,Africa Bambatta,Mellie Mel did not wear the saggy pants nor popularize it. | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/25/2005 7:17:04 AM | mossberg
wow you really gave me the boots!
the fact that you would imply that I was going to play the
"build up in the digital domain /real musicians" card
assures me that you are aware of how most hip hop is created in the studio
with loops and machines
and you could also infer why I may think
hip hop is not really legit | |
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reveen
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Joined: 7/4/2005
Msg: 122 | |
| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/25/2005 11:51:24 PM | ok Ive read all the way through this thread and simply put every type of music has good and bad qualities associated to it. Before I continue I dont see myself as an overly knowledgeable individual, however everyone has their oppinions.
While I have my roots in rock/classic rock I feel that any genre of music can have a message (both positive and negative). Rap/r&b for example sure you have people like eminem, but also groups like K-os. Music is essentially a form of self expression. Look at bands like Rage against the Machine, theyve mixed different genres together, and put forward their opinions. Ive learned a bit of history because of them as well ......decision of dred scott for one. (yes it took a bit of research) I had never heard of it previously. (in my opinion audioslave is nothing compared to Rage)
anyway rather then rambling on here basically every genre of music has its own qualities to it, every genre has positive and negative aspects. It all comes down to self expression and what appeals to the individual. If you search long enough in any genre you will find something of substance.....again as I said early Im not one to boast about my knowledge of ....well quite frankly anything so if anyone feels like correcting me on anything I have said here I am more then willing to hear them out. | |
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| IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 9/28/2005 10:32:44 PM | Let me ask you one question?
Is your money that good?
Will it buy you forgiveness?
Do you think that it could?
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
from the wall at the local
strip joint. | |
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