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Mitsoo
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Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 101 | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 9:50:33 AM | @mitsoo
True...when i posted this thread, it was a question in regards to the hypocrisy of it all that i was referring to, as well as the morality. But, stats do come into play in many ways as well, i suppose. Such stats are important in deciding on the efficientcy of such an action, as well as the innocent that are wrongfully executed or imprisoned for life. But, is capital punishment really affective in lowering the crime rate?...a whole 'nother thread i guess... | |
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Mitsoo
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Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 103 | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 104 | |
| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 10:18:01 AM |
an uninformed opinion about such things is a deadly opinon. You don't need to do research on a topic to have an opinion. As long as you know the general situation, you can form an opinion.
in case you didn't notice, i mentioned that in my opinion you can't put a price on life... My comment "It's funny how topics that involve human rights always boil down to money" was a general statement. It wasn't directed at any one person in particular.
do you actually have an opinon yourself, or do you just enjoy being rude and childish. Did you look at any of my other posts before asking this? What was rude and childish?
Lots of stats do not form an opinion.
Is that better, or can I respond in a silly way; using irony to respond to a post that quotes multiple sites, but offers little personal input?
Regardless of the imposed cost to rid society of murders, rapists, and child molesters; what is the option? Even on a life sentence of twenty years, parole is in fourteen, and then they go out and kill, rape, or molest again.
I think the money is a weak issue. "Sorry there, little boy...we could have stopped him, but it wasn't in the budget. I hope you don't mind." | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 10:27:01 AM | I don't know if I am for or against....but this thread has got my brain working!
The death penalty was abolished in Canada in 1976 after a debate that lasted 98 hours. The death penalty was only beaten by 6 votes...that is a very slim majority.
And speaking as a resident of BC....I can name 3 persons off the top of my head that truly, truly deserve not to live. The only method of execution ever used in Canada was hanging, and I suppose that it is a humane way of death?!!? I guess what I am trying to say, is that there are few cases that warrant a "gov't" killing. Crimes obviously have varying degrees...but mass murderers should be "taken out" | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 10:28:29 AM |
Regardless of the imposed cost to rid society of murders, rapists, and child molesters; what is the option? Even on a life sentence of twenty years, parole is in fourteen, and then they go out and kill, rape, or molest again.
I think the money is a weak issue. "Sorry there, little boy...we could have stopped him, but it wasn't in the budget. I hope you don't mind." Life without parole is now available in all but one state that has the death penalty, and I think that's about to change | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 107 | |
| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 10:47:38 AM | Nitanny, I didn't know that.
But doesn't that cost a lot of money to keep a guy in prison that long? Why not just get rid of him permanently? | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 10:49:09 AM | | Avoided this thread up till now, but here goes. People who murder don't do cost/benefit analyses before they act. If they thought they'd be caught they wouldn't do it, whether the penalty is death or "merely" 20 years in prison. Most importantly though human justice systems make mistakes - a death penalty insures that innocent people will be killed. Morally I don't have the problem with the simple fact of a death penalty some do, there are more than a few I can think of who deserve it, but if it doesn't act as a deterent and results in innocent people being killed it just isn't justified. | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 10:55:17 AM | Punishment
.....Is only ONE of the purposes of punishment.
deterrent, protect society, rehabilittation..
um..uh..um..
I hate when I forget some stuff from my schooling. (books are in my parents garage) :(
Punishment is NOT what sentences are all about you know.
But, is capital punishment really affective in lowering the crime rate?...
It sure is in Texas..no? They do not fu*k around down there when it comes to this crime. (murder 1 that is)
People who murder don't do cost/benefit analyses before they act.
I wouldn't bet the farm on that. To say SOME do not do this is likely safe..but..as a generality!?
a death penalty insures that innocent people will be killed
No it doesn;'t. | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 11:02:18 AM | It IS, however, about 1)protecting society, 2)deterrence and 3)punishment though.
3 out of 4 purposes of sentencing served...ummm
well...
Why do you focus on what ISNT in play in this discussion you?
What a useless post by you..again.
Anyways..thank you for your concurrence on the rest. | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 11:16:13 AM | There are actually seven general punishment theories, maybe you should dig those books out.
Why do you focus on what ISNT in play in this discussion you?
What a useless post by you..again.
I stated an opinion; why must you persist in being rude? You really do have issues, my friend. | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 11:19:07 AM | There are actually seven general punishment theories
will you list them for us please?
The ones I remember..off hand..and am using in this debate are
1) rehabilitation
2) punishment
3) protect society
4) deterrence from committing future crimes by A) that person and B) other people who may commit the same crimes.
I would LOVE to hear the other 3. | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 116 | |
| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 11:26:43 AM |
What a useless post by you..again. lol, I thought you were talking to yourself again. Until Nitanny responded, I couldn't figure out who wrote the "useless" post.
I'm gonna agree with Halftimedad on his perspective for the most part.
I do think that the whole situation has been blown out of proportion. People whine and complain all the time that there are violent and dangerous criminals walking the streets because the legal system failed to bring them to justice. There's probably a lot less whining about this in Texas, where their death row has an express lane.
Nitanny, not pushing these issues because of money is a weak issue, smartass... ... | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 11:45:59 AM | Hiya loves
We have no capital punishment in the UK.
Life means 14 years and they are out in half the time......so they can do it again b4 they get too rusty.
Thats thanks to the selective liberals again who value the human rights of murderers as against the victims.
Anyway...the majority opinion here is that LIFE shud mean LIFE imprisionment....not 14 years.
No hanging or watever to pacify the liberals,again but to be in prison for their natural lifetime.
They shud be in prison and on a simple basic diet and no mod cons.
As it is they get day release,TV,videos etc
If they knew this...that wud be a deterrant,we are positive on that.Hanging wud make it more certain but I am for life imprisonment .
The prisons are full now bcuz there is no deterrant.They know that they will be out in 7 years for murder and hardly jailed if they can blame some imagined wrong in their life.......like.....my mother never read me a bedtime story and it affected my mind....or some such nonsense.
I think that the UK public is pretty fed up of this liberal approach and are demanding,action. | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 118 | |
| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 12:14:35 PM |
my mother never read me a bedtime story and it affected my mind....or some such nonsense. Yeah, that crap is getting really stale.
There was a guy in British Columbia that got a child pornography charge dropped on the basis of artistic merit. In Texas, they probably would have had him convicted, and he would soon be strapped in a chair waiting for his testes to erupt like grenades before his brain fries like bread pudding. | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 12:16:26 PM | life without parole is available, and the entire court process plus what it costs to keep a person in prison for life is at least half (depends on the state) as costly as a capital trial, all the stays, appeals and the actual execution.
there is no death penalty in europe, the death penalty is not a deterrent, proof is in the pudding... the usa still has the highest murder rate per capita IN THE WORLD!! what more do you need to know to see that it doesn't work? that the gov't is saying it's ok to kill for this that or the other reason, and let that logic seep into the public's mind and warp to include their own personal moralities of justified homicide.... murder is wrong, no matter who is doing the killing.
on the stats.... the post i made about amnesty international had only two parts that were stats, the first was related to the post above it where somone was stating that is was less costly to execute... i simply pointed out that that is not true.... and from reading many of the posts in this topic it is a fact that most here in favour of the death penalty are completely unaware of... in fact, i've seen quite a number of pro capital punishment posts stating that they are for it as it is a more economical way to go.... WRONG... and if that is anyone's basis for deciding 'for', shame on you.
it also mentioned where the money to execute is being taken from, that is to say, what other law enforcement bodies and services are being neglected by reason of state sanctioned murder costs.... this is not good for society period. my opinion based on the FACTS.
the second part that had statistics was a quote from one of the pages i left a link to regarding the number of innocent people who have been on death row... i believe this is an important point, being that it is the main problem with capital punishment, once it's carried out, you can't take it back.
the rest of the links were for people like heavenscherub & mitsoo, who may be interested in reading more about amnesty international's campaign against the death penalty and to protect other human rights all over the world. there are petitions that can be signed to stop the stoning of women for adultery or for being single mothers, the prevention of child execution, and many other such issues. there is more in that site than statistics, however statistics are important if you are going to vote on this at some point...
they are facts on the issue and should be taken into account, and i can see by many of the posts that are pro capital punishment that opinions have been formed without looking into this law in practice, the reality of what capital punishment entails and the risk of innocent people being executed... you can make this an abstraction and ignore the facts and vote when the time comes without knowledge or understanding of the issue as a reality.... but as i said before... an uniformed opinion on life and death matters, especially that of a registered voter, can be a deadly opinion.
and garf... regarding my reference to the childish post and asking for an opinion... your original post had only a farcical link, longer and ruder than what is there now, regarding statistics, and nothing more. your post was edited after i replied, there was no opinion there when i made my response.... you saw stats and went into a headbutt in my direction, and it's obvious by your subsequent posts that you didn't even read the material in the post before passing judgement... yeah, you'd make a really good juror in a death penalty case.... shudder... | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 1:33:43 PM | typo correction for next to last paragraph in previous post...
the last sentence has the word 'uniformed', it should be 'uninformed'... | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 1:40:51 PM | | it seems to me that we should are asking the wrong people whether or not capital punishment is correct. maybe ask the victims, if they can forgive the criminal, then incarceration would be acceptable. one little problem, the victims of murder, spousal assault, child abuse etc. usually do not have that option in the fact that dead people can't talk and most others wish that the crime had never occured and the impact on their lives can never truly be measurred. so to all you liberal minded folks with your secure lives, pray that nothing happens in your world that might have you question your very limited views | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 2:18:14 PM | i do question how i would feel if i were to be in a situation where a loved one had been murdered in cold blood.... as well as how i would feel if it were a friend or family member who was on trial as well. i hope i never have to be in either situation, and i'm sure that if someone were to do anything to my son that would warrant a capital trial, i would probably initially react to the emotion of revenge, but i know that this is passion, and it isn't really how i feel about the death penalty, and i also know that my son would most definitely be against a life being taken over his own.
fortunately there is no death penalty where i now live, so as long as i am here i know that this decision has already been made, in a moment of rational thinking, not in an altered mental state of grief or passion, by the people of the country where i live and i am in agreement with this choice.
i don't want anyone's blood on my hands for any reason. | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 3:22:45 PM | | regarding the blood of others on your hands, sometimes you have to get stained for a cause that is may not seem morally acceptable. whether it be a juror who decides to end someones life. a soldier that kills for his countrys freedoms. or those persons who's lives have been tourtured by the actions of sociopathic persons who place no value on the lives of anyone whatsoever.this is a wonderful world that we dwell on , but there is also many cruel and unjust actions that could have been avoided if we had just eliminated the criminals that prey on us . | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 3:44:00 PM | besides the moral debate on this, there are the political and psycho/sociological aspect....
most convicted of capital crimes are of a low income class, this means they have less likelyhood of having the benefit of choosing good council to represent them, which means less chance of a poor and innocent person accused of a capital crime being aquitted, hence, a much higher possibility of executing the wrong person... add the political feature of the need for such high profile crimes to be 'paid' for and you can almost assure that there will be innocent people put to death, especially when the timing is close to any state elections.
the 'sociopath' (dsm calls this anti-social personality disorder, close to narcissitic personality disorder) that you speak of is a product of society... the key to eliminating this kind of criminal is to discover what makes them tick... impossible to do when they are dead... and to try and make changes in our society so that less children end up having this and other types of criminally oriented mental disorders, not by further advocating murder as being ok under certain conditions... this only makes it easier for the criminal to justify their own acts... if it's ok for the state, it's ok for me too.... remember, they don't expect to get caught, and truly have very little if any fear of the consequences of their actions, so the death penalty is not a deterrent for such people.... and they do make up the majority of capital offenders.
i've said it twice already... europe has no death penatly, most usa states do... the murder rate in the us is unbelievably higher than it is in europe.... why is that? under these conditions, how can anyone still think that this system works?
the family is the microcosm of the community, which grows to be the city, the state then the nation... the morality of one affects the other, in both directions.... murder is wrong on all levels... that is and has always been my belief and i'll stand by it. i have no right to judge anyone else, especially not to the point of executing them.
livinfree, you can have as much blood on your hands as you like, i just don't want any on mine... and what you describe above sounds a bit like you'd like to 'clean up the gene pool' aka 'genetic cleansing' this is also wrong and doesn't have to be racially motivated. i wonder how you would feel about this if you had a mentally ill person in your family. | |
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| Capital Punishment~ for or against?
Posted: 8/13/2005 4:56:57 PM | | Rape used to carry more death sentences and should be again. Capital offenses should carry the death penalty and have public hangings. I don't care if a few innocent people are hung, compared to the hundreds who should be executed. It is the price you pay for strict punishment. Strict punishment is found in police states, and we need it in America. There is too much going on, with Columbine, terrorism, we need to put a dent in crime. Serious punishment is the only deterrant. | |
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