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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/16/2004 9:24:10 PM | | But Jimi, you are still avoiding the whole point of this discussion. You and others believe these things, but not everyone does. So when one of you beliefs is incorporated into law, it is being forced upon others that do not share your views. That is why the original question came about... Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people? I say believe whatever you want to believe, and if it helps you to be a better person, good, that's even better, but your beliefs should be your own. It is fine to share, but when it overflows into our nation's laws, that is unacceptable, and it should not even be allowed according to the bill of rights, and the separation of church and state. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/16/2004 10:31:31 PM | | Jimii, there you go telling everyone how wrong they are again. Umm where did I say to act like jesus was enough? And why is it for some reason the christians only have to have faith in god and jesus and everything else is forgotten and forgiven. Doesn't seem to matter how gluttanous, egotistical, or judgemental they are. I was talking in my last post about the whole package about being the best person you can be and doing it because you know you have the choice whether to do it or not. Jimi, don't you understand that the only thing god wants from you and the only thing you have to give is your wanting to follow his love on faith. When did I say a good deed was enough? Doing a deed out of love for god and the world he created for us is what the trick is. By helping the children you are helping the father..I know why christians push there beliefs on us is because they need some reassurance that they are not wrong and by sucking everyone else in it makes it all little easier to swallow. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/16/2004 10:39:24 PM | | is it just me, or has the whole concept of christians approaching you to try to "give you the word of god" become like telemarketing....i don't care what they're selling anymore..i ain't buying no matter what. i just automatically quit listening when i'm approached because i'm just so annoyed by the intrusion into my day. i know where to find religion if i want it...everyone does. i'll go there when and if i want it. until then....go about your merry way and do as you wish amongst yourself. i'm fine how i am thank you...no saving needed. all good on that front. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/16/2004 10:43:40 PM | Our message should be love and good news, sometimes reasoning and Bible quotes and preaching. But if it is bullying or diatribes it is unbiblical Biblicaleness.
It is an error.
I sympathise with Native Americans. They were persecuted by some people with a kind of comprimising faith.
I was pushy myself at the outset of my turn. I was bullied and given diatribes. I hate it. Pushiness is a no go!! I think that one to one it best be good news and reason.
Abortion is sometimes a horrible thing and if in my power or by my taxes then I will try to stop but the necessary. Ones needed for mothers to live...
Murder, theft... are outlawed from a Bible basis. Pornography can break up marriages and should not be available to children and not pushed on us so much. The www or net breaks up marriages by porn. SOOOO often!!! Was it 50% or 90% In Jentezyn Franklyn's church of thousands. It is a powerfull dangerous thing to the person whose ideal is chastity. If it was my choice it would not exist anymore because it causes me to sin.
If Allah is not real, how canhe save you? Buddha never said he was a god and was just a philosopher. Vishnu is a God with a threeness nature like the Trinity. Nike is dead, just a shoe brand now. The ancients in Europe gave up there gods for they were weak. Really they didn't exist. The Saxons worshipped Oden, the god of war. Thankfully after they killed all the Angle men in England in war and took the women as wives, poor things, their descendants became Catholic and produced St Patrick. The Anglo Saxons are great colonists and missionaries.
So we have Bible based laws and the Magna Carta which is just and excellent. We are better off than the ancient pagans and Indians and Chinese and Africans.
It is reasonable to promote and if sincerely promoted it is good news, true Gospel!!!!!!!!!!!
I am part Kiowan mixed with Dutch. Part French mixed with Indian and Irish and portuguese or Spanish, and my father is Hungarian with a tad bit of English back there on his mum's side. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/17/2004 3:12:54 AM | John Adams, one of many contemporaries who had little use for Benjamin Franklin, intended no compliment when he observed of Franklin's religious views that "the Catholics thought him almost a Catholic. The Church of England claimed him as one of them. The Presbyterians thought him half a Presbyterian, and the Friends believed him a wet Quaker."(1) Had Dr. Franklin ever been among Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims, doubtless he would have convinced them that he was deeply sympathetic to their beliefs as well. The fact that no one to this very day is quite sure of Franklin's religious beliefs would please him enormously, if he were still with us, for Benjamin Franklin liked to keep people guessing. That is what made him a controversial figure during his lifetime, and that is why he remains controversial today.
Franklin would find it highly amusing that in recent years he has been portrayed by the political and religious Right as an orthodox Christian who helped lay the foundations of a Christian nation. The good doctor was certainly not anti-Christian, for he believed that the Christian religion inspired many Americans to be good citizens; moreover, their faith comforted them in times of crisis and gave them strength. On the other hand, Franklin believed that all other religions did the same for their adherents--Islam, Hinduism, and all the rest. Religion--any religion--was a good thing in his view, for it served a useful purpose. Franklin treated all religions alike, making him in all probability the first American champion of generic religion.
Still, the Philadelphia philosopher was well aware that except for a few Jews, the nation he was helping to establish was peopled overwhelmingly by various kinds of Christians. Most were Protestant, including numerous Congregationalists and Episcopalians, a generous supply of Baptists and Presbyterians, some Methodists and Lutherans, and a sprinkling of various religious groups from the German states. While some Catholics had played a significant part in the American Revolution, and by 1850 Catholics would become the largest single religious group in the United States, in the 1780s they composed perhaps one percent of the population.
There is no evidence to indicate that Franklin wished to impose a Christian or any other particular religious agenda on the American people. He and his colleagues at the Constitutional Convention of 1787 were wise enough to look down the road to a future time when the mostly Christian religious picture might change and to eschew setting up a state based on a particular religion. There is nothing in the Constitution as it was originally ratified to suggest any connection between the state and any specific religion. That the founding fathers intended to keep them separate is patently obvious, and that intention was reinforced by the First Amendment, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Franklin was dead by the time the amendment was ratified, but all available evidence suggests that he would have endorsed it enthusiastically.
What exactly were Franklin's own religious beliefs? That question has been explored by a goodly number of Franklin scholars, and no consensus has been reached yet.........
for the rest of that go to http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2082/is_4_62/ai_64910236
as for thomas paine??? ..." After his death in New York City on June 8, 1809 the newspapers read: He had lived long, did some good and much harm, which time judged to be an unworthy epitaph. "
for the actual facts of his life, as seen in a light not meant to be derrogatory, you can go to... http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/B/tpaine/paine.htm
you'll see his leaving the country was not to flee.....his staying in france was to stick with his cause, be it in the US or elsewhere, his ideals were the same, regardless of the nation he was in.
please do your homework a bit better jimi.....you can spout bible quotes all you want, it really just bores most of us, but if you're going to dispute things by twisting facts and creating half truths....that, sir..is not the way to argue your point. you'll just be called out on it...as you just have been. | |
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koiguy
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Joined: 10/21/2004
Msg: 32 | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/17/2004 3:38:57 PM | No1here, did i tell them were wronge or show them? your words, "Isn't that what God asked us to do? Live his will-like his son." now maybe i missunderstood what you were saying and if so i appoligise..however. you say
"why is it for some reason the christians only have to have faith in god and jesus and everything else is forgotten and forgiven. Doesn't seem to matter how gluttanous, egotistical, or judgemental they are." first GOD will deal with them on that issue and why whould you assume they are perfect human beings when it is plainly stated in the bible no man is good? the reason that everytrhing else is forgotton and forgivin is becasue of christ sacrifice on the cross. that is the good news. as i have said in many post before.. you , me , all of us fall short of the standard GOD himself set.. so your in sin.. sin is rebellion against god.. god warns that the wages of sin is death and punishment. so with sin on your hands how can you plead your case to GOD.. you broke the law.. jsut as any judge in any court will say .. you broke the law. now tell them well you know judge... i am a good person i feel that your wronge and should let me go... he will throw the book at ya. GOD made a way so that you could be with him.. it cost him his sons life. the laws are set up to show you your standing with god. a sinner, and force you to look to the one that kept these laws for you.. JESUS.. that is why when your a beliver and you have the blood of christ coving your sins you are not under that penelty of the law. however GOD chases then he love and will punish sin. so if your sining he will come looking. for example look at jimmy swagert.. he had no fruits, and was sinning.. at fisrt he might have been genuwine.. but as he sinned GOD removed him from the pulpet. same with jimmy baker.. they might have started out with sincer motives but as they fell to temptation GOD punished them and removed them from there postion.
you can help people all you want your kindness does not cover sin.. point blank. GOD stated it. he did this so NO man could say i am better then you look at what i did for GOD.. no he said your all guilty your all in sin and all in need of a savior.
"..I know why christians push there beliefs on us is because they need some reassurance that they are not wrong and by sucking everyone else in it makes it all little easier to swallow. " ^ ^ ^ nice loving comment.. practice what you preach. then i will take noctice. fact is you hate just as much as the next person. dont hold your self above a christian when your no better. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/17/2004 3:54:20 PM | I gave you quotes from ben fraklin himself??? WHAT more can i do?? i address the issue you brought up? then you changed the guy to john adams? i can give you quotes from other founding father as well. if you like.
john adams.."Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."
"it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."
sounds like him and ol benny had a lot in common to me.
as i under stand it he did not leave this country to go to france but europe.. he was kicked out of england and then went to france, then they jailed him..
"What exactly were Franklin's own religious beliefs? That question has been explored by a goodly number of Franklin scholars, and no consensus has been reached yet........."
by my own words what would you say my belifes are? i bet you can guess. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/17/2004 4:37:33 PM | Are those who state that religious people should not express their views and beliefs any example of Freedom of Speech?
And does expressing such views necessarily connotate or amount to 'forcing their beliefs down other people's throats'?
I see more hyper-sensitivity here, or just plain hostilities towards religions in general, since I haven't come across anyone in at least a decade that has insisted I believe in something specific.
So, who is ramming their beliefs down anyone's throats here on the forum? | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/17/2004 6:49:57 PM | | oh my jimi........france is in europe....and what i posted started out with a quote from adams about franklin. do you read what others post or just randomly start taking off on them??? try reading, it works much better when you're trying to have a logical arguement. much better indeed. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/18/2004 4:12:50 PM | kotagirl.. well in his bio it said he went to europe not france first and he was kicked out of england then went to france... i know were france is.. but as in the bio ... i would asume he did not go to france first as they stated he was kicked out of england and then moved to france.
Also Thomas Paine, in his discourse on "The Study of God," forcefully asserts that it is "the error of schools" to teach sciences without "reference to the Being who is author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin." He laments that "the evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching [science without God] has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism." Paine not only believed in God, he believed in a reality beyond the visible world.
I think franklins actions spoke louder then adams words… for example..agian..
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the necessity of a public religion . . . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Consider also the fact that Franklin proposed a Biblical inscription for the Seal of the United States; that he chose a New Testament verse for the motto of the Philadelphia Hospital; that he was one of the chief voices behind the establishment of a paid chaplain in Congress; and that when in 1787 when Franklin helped found the college which bore his name, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning" built "on Christ, the Corner-Stone." Franklin certainly shows his true colors by his actions.
As for the sepreation of church and state… Jefferson himself.
Jefferson praised the use of a local courthouse as a meeting place for Christian services;
Jefferson proposed that the Great Seal of the United States depict a story from the Bible and include the word “God” in its motto
When Washington D. C. became the national capital in 1800, Congress voted that the Capitol building would also serve as a church building. President Jefferson chose to attend church each Sunday at the Capitol and even provided the service with paid government musicians to assist in its worship.
Jefferson also began similar Christian services in his own Executive Branch, both at the Treasury Building and at the War Office.
In an 1803 federal Indian treaty, Jefferson willingly agreed to provide $300 to “assist the said Kaskaskia tribe in the erection of a church” and to provide “annually for seven years $100 towards the support of a Catholic priest.” He also signed three separate acts setting aside government lands for the sole use of religious groups and setting aside government lands so that Moravian missionaries might be assisted in “promoting Christianity.”
the law was so that congress could not stop the church from free worship as it pleased. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/18/2004 7:55:23 PM | many many of our founding fathers supported religion being present in our government because of the moral influence that comes with the christian religion. people who have a "golden rule" base belief system, such as christianity tend to be better citizens.
the whole point of this post was not that christianity is bad...but aggressive promotion to people who are not seeking it is. i have nothing against christianity, my belief system is largely influenced by it. i do however have something against people in effect harrassing me with their beliefs when i don't care to hear it from them. having your religion/belief system is good, and telling others about it is fine....but you needed be aggressive or annoying about it, and many christians are. i don't want it forced down my throat. for that matter, i don't want anything forced down my throat. i'm just as irritated by say, cell phone sales men in the mall kiosks constantly yakking at me to "hey, come on over here and i'll get you a free phone!" or telemarketer calling. if i want it, i'll seek it. if you want to let people know about it...put up a sign, make brochures available, put a commercial on tv for ppl to seek more info. don't corner me, don't lecture me, don't knock on my door, don't spend 20 minutes asking me if i've "found Jaaayyyzuuuuus" in a public place where i'm likely too polite to tell you to back the hell off.
for that matter......not all christian religions are like that..i was raised methodist...and i've never encountered a pushy zealot of a methodist yet. they're calm and will talk to you if you show interest, but will not persue you unless you do. they want to spread god's word, not shove it down your throat. it's only the religions in the basic group of christianity that are much more aggressive in their conversion seeking that are my problem. and not even the religion itself....just the hawking it like it was game at the carnival to anyone who's in hearing distance or too slow to sneak past you so you can't corner them. that's my problem. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/19/2004 3:49:32 PM | I think the greater question is why does anyone feel the need to press their point of view or belief structure on to anyone. Well, simply put...we live together on this planet. We were made social & sexual beings thus we seek each other out. In my humble opinion & as I see it, collectively, we don't practice what we preach. We talk about love & acceptance but don't really walk the walk. We talk about freedom of choice be it religion, speech but once someone wants to go against the norm that freedom is questioned.
I am a man of God & Jesus...that's my belief system. However, I stride to truly practice what I believe Jesus to truly be about & that's LOVE. Jesus embraced & loved all that he encounted. One Love...One Heart. As I read all the postings in this thread, I found myself agreeing with points from both sides of this agruement. In my experiences, I find that when we truly seek to fully understand someone position before we attempt to make our points of view, greater acceptance is established. Synergy....yes, I know it's a buzz word but don't hate the word.
It doesn't matter what favour of Christianity or belief structure we pay homage too...the end result is to actually live my the doctrines of these philosophies.
"People with small minds talk about other people. People with average minds talk about events. People with great minds talk about ideas"
- Anonymous | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/19/2004 9:14:43 PM |
Are those who state that religious people should not express their views and beliefs any example of Freedom of Speech?
I am not saying don't express what you believe I am saying don't make laws that are based on Christian morals(IE banning gay marriage, abortion). And I also don't like being told I am going to hell if I do not share my beliefs with you.
And does expressing such views necessarily connotate or amount to 'forcing their beliefs down other people's throats'?
No not expressing the wonders of God and Jesus, but once again the laws and the hell thing do. And also telling everyone else they are wrong and Christianity is the only truth is. Say I think or I believe not your wrong.
I see more hyper-sensitivity here, or just plain hostilities towards religions in general, since I haven't come across anyone in at least a decade that has insisted I believe in something specific.
Yes but you seem to be a Christian, and therefor I am guessing that other Christians are not trying to convert you.
So, who is ramming their beliefs down anyone's throats here on the forum?
How am I ramming my beliefs down anyone's throat saying that I am put off by the way I have been approached by christians and that I don't want there to be laws that are based solely in Christian morals. | |
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koiguy
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Joined: 10/21/2004
Msg: 44 | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/20/2004 3:28:28 AM | In regards to enforcing religion, Christianity is definitely the worst one. I mean what the heck are christians doing in afghanistan trying to convert Muslims in a mostly muslim country.
Christians have even converted head hunters and canniballists.
I'm christian because my parents had me baptised as such, but I definitely don't believe in it. Personally I would prefer a pagan religion. | |
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| Why do Christians feel the need to press their religous belief's on people?
Posted: 11/22/2004 11:57:04 AM | | According to muslims, the Koran is Allah's words that Mohammad got in a vision the angel Gabriel. It is meant to be God's last words....a way of life for man to live by & follow. The way I see things is that we are praying to the same God. All three major religions all stem from the same God of Abraham. | |
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LadyO
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Joined: 8/26/2004
Msg: 49 | |
| PLEASE READ THIS
Posted: 11/22/2004 9:42:27 PM | First,
Any "Christian" who FORCES their faith onto you is not bearing the fruits of the tree they claim to be. Jesus said "You will know them for the fruits they bear". If they are professing to be Christian then they would not be forcing you into anything. They only DELIVER the message of God. Of course, that is in a perfect world.
The question about Gay marriage is not completely about the morality of gays and lesbians marrying, it's about gays and lesbians recieving the same LEGAL RIGHTS as other married couples. Even now in states and provinces that recognize gay marriage, the couples are not permitted greivance leave, marriage benefits, so on and so forth.
Within the religious community it is not a Christians' job to judge. "Judge not lest ye be judged". Of course, that's pretty high standards to live by. Being Gay goes against the teachings of the bible. Look what happened to Soddom and Gammora (sp). But, on the same hand, any Christian professing to be Christian would not judge someone because they are Gay or imply that they are going to Hell because of it. To be Christian, you are to accept all walks of life with the love that God above can give. Even if it's hard to do at times.
Abortion is not allowed in the Catholic community. There's a difference between Catholocism and Christianity. Christianity teaches that to get to heaven you must believe in Jesus. You must believe that he is the Savior and the son of Our Lord. You must believe he is one part of the Holy Triangle. That being the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
Catholocism(sp) believes that in order to get to heaven you must do good deeds. But how do you know when you have done good? No one can tell you that except God, because God makes the rules on entering his house. Catholics also confess to the Priest. No one can forgive your sins but God.
Catholics do not believe in birth control either. That's why there are so many large Catholic families. My father was raised Catholic. He has 5 brothers and sisters and my grandmother miscarried three times. My dads grandfather had 9 brothers and sisters and were Catholic.
There are many other people out there besides Catholics who believe abortion should not be allowed. For many other reasons than simple religious beliefs.
No one should tell you that you are going to hell because of what you follow. If they do and they are professing to be Christians, they are not bearing the fruits of the Lord. Christianity recognizes and takes knowledge from other Religious paths and spiritual faiths. There is much to be learned in the words of the Buddha, or the words of Islam or Hindu. You can take knowledge from all those religions and still be Christian. Because you still believe that Jesus is the Savior. That he did what the Bible says he did so we could be forgiven of sin.
That there wouldn't have to be any more sacrifices to God, that there wouldn't have to be any more pennance for our sins other than to say "God, I know I messed up. I know I sinned, please forgive me and I'll try not to let it happen again."
I'm sorry that you have had such bad run-ins with those who believe they are Christians' because they can hang a cross around their neck and say "I am Christian". Remember, there are good and bad in all walks of life and in all Religions.
I wish you well. :)
~LadyO | |
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