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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 12:37:00 PM | Abortion is a tough issue people. If governments cant come up with answers neither can we, im a guy and if i had a girlfriend who was pregnant by me and wanted an abortion i wouldnt be happy, id rather she had it and left me to look after the baby.
but abortion has been argued for years upon years. and had been going on illegally for many years after.
Nowadays the abortions we have are better because ive heard some sad stories of woman and knitting needles which i wont fill u in on anymore. But in that sense abortions are good as it means less people die.
The children getting killed however never get a say in the matter. although im not a very strict catholic i still believe in god and what the bible has to say, so what if we abort jesus on his return to our planet to save us, what then what'll happen!!?? if god and his teachings are true then that would be an ultimate punishment/discipline for our "crimes" against unborn babies.
Abortion is not murder unless the baby is passed a certain age which is different in most countries but if people do think its murder then it all comes down to morals which has no place in law, but some would argue that law has no place in morals, which brings me back to my original point.
You'll never sit down and discuss abortion without it coming to blows like it is here, just the same as you'll never be able to sort it out. Undoubtedly in most cases, a rape victim who gets pregnant is going to get an abortion because she can, it IS legal u know. However im not sayind i agree or disagree with it, im neither here nor there with it. in some cases it could be deemed necessary, but in others where it is because it would interfere with the mother/ mother and fathers social life amongst other things but lie to get it done. should be hung or locked up in jail for life, i dont care what happens to them its inexcusible.
But how many of you have woken up in the morning and taken the pill, is that not the same thing but in a quicker fashion?
Abortion will never become acceptable aslong as humans have feelings. in some cases its fine and acceptable in others it is not. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 12:45:28 PM | I totally agree there should be no abortions for the sake of any kind of convinience whatsoever.
Rape Victims. Interesting Point.
I have absolutely no resolved Opinion on this.
The Unborn does have the Right to Life, no Question about that.
On the other Hand, is the Child a constant Reminder for the Mother of the terrible Incident that took place.
In this particular Case, I believe the Views of the Mother on this Matter have to be taken into Consideration.
If she wishes to abort, then her wish should be granted.
However, a bit of a legal Snag could develop if she claims she was raped, but never was. I doubt the Justice System needs to incur any more expense investigating possible false Claims because she got pregnant being careless and then accused someone else of rape in order to have an Abortion.
I believe the unborn does have the Right to Life, the Mother also the right to abort if she was raped, and the Justice System also the Right to enact Laws that prevents setting the Stage that may lead to possible Injustices.
All Things considered, I tend to lean slightly in Favour of the Mother. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 1:00:09 PM | Its a Dilema.
Too many Rights are conflicting.
If Pregnancy results because of Rape, I would leave this up to the Courts to decide, because that's where the very best Overview of the Situation is really possible.
Let the best-paid Lawyers make their Case. The Fact that the Gov't has the Right to administer Justice, is probably the Reason why it is a legal & public Issue in the first place. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 1:26:44 PM | I have no love for Morgenthaler whatsoever.
I am totally against Abortions, unless there is a medical or rape Issue involved.
I would even go further, and this will probably not be legally feasable, is that if she got completely drunk, led some guy on, got pregnant and then claimed to have been raped, I don't think justifies Abortion. That just doesn't cut it in terms of a severe traumatic Experience. The type or Nature of the Rape would have to factor in.
You could have a 5 Million Dollar Trial on this. Impossible to administer Justice.
You would have to make Abortion either legal, or illegal.
Certain Stipulations & Clauses could be enacted of what constitutes justification for Abortion due to Rape. Trials take years, so that's not going to work. A reasonable set of Guidelines for Evidence could be drawn up, but that 'Evidence' could also be self-inflicted, if the Woman was desperate enough to have an Abortion of Convinience.
Tough Call! | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 2:37:56 PM | If 'Morality' contains little Sense or Reason, then yes, no point flagging it off on anyone.
However, Abortion of Convinience in any event I consider an issue relevant to the Sanity of a Populace, perhaps of a far lesser degree than Murder, but I would not go so far and call it just a 'Brand of Morality', as that is more suggestive of 'Beliefs & Ideals' rather than 'Reason & Rationale'.
But if 'Morality' means Right or Wrong, Sane or Insane, Reasonable or Unreasonable, then it may have a bearing on it. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 3:08:02 PM | In the case of rape, why not place the child up for adoption? I can agree that not every woman is capable of working past the trauma of a rape, but there has to be a viable alternative so that the unborn child is permitted the right to life.
There are hundreds of thousands of couples doing just about anything under the sun to have a baby of their own. What better way to take a tragic event and turn it into a positive one? The baby maintains the right to live, the adoptive parents receive a child they could not produce themselves and the woman who was raped does not have to deal with the compounded issue of abortion on top of the rape itself.
Imagine this, a woman gives birth and a month after the baby is brought home a criminal breaks in to her home and rapes the woman. The woman is traumatized and now has a mental condition which will seriously inhibit her raising the newborn. We would never think of simply exterminating the newborn in a case like this right? Yet we would exterminate an unborn child in a case like this. I fail to see the difference between the two children, they are both living human beings and both have the same right to life.
Rape is a very difficult situation, there can be no disputing that. However I believe we must look at this and give the unborn child a right to life, they are completely without blame in this and I don't believe that they deserve to be a casualty as a result of a criminal's behavior. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 3:41:00 PM | 1967: Justice Minister Peirre Trudeau introduces abortion reform bill.
1968: He is elected
****1969****
The year Canada's hellish descent into government sanctioned "abortion-on-demand" begins.
Abortion Statistics Canada.
1970 11,152
1971 30,949
1972 38,905
1973 43,245
1974 43,245
1975 57,175
SINCE 1970, THE YEAR CANADA'S ABORTION LAWS BEGAN TO UNRAVEL, OVER 1.7 MILLION CANADIAN CHILDREN HAVE HAD THEIR BRIEF AND PRECIOUS LIVES DELIBERATELY TERMINATED.
These were NOT all rape victims. On the contrary....only 1 % were voiced victims of rape.
I am not saying MY opinion is the correct one and I am not here to judge....that is not my job.
All I want to say is that there are other options. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 6:34:38 PM | | If I said anything that you took personally I can tell you that it was not intended that way. I do appreciate your point of view and we'll both have to agree to disagree on this rather passionate, deeply felt issue. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 6:58:42 PM | Chelle...
My comments on women who have not given life were not directed at you....since like you stated I have no knowledge of your experiences....it was in no means an attack on you. I am sorry if I offended you in any way but like yourself I am also entitled to my opinion.
I have also enjoyed many of your other post in various forums....
And we will agree to disagree Chelle.
This is my final post.............. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 7:51:04 PM | Easytag,
There is no doubt that abortion is murder. I have had two children and I knew the miracle of carrying them inside me and nurturing them before they were born. I also had a miscarriage between them. I blamed myself and thought how can this be happening?
God knows each of us intimately, and loves us. There are those who have made the decision to have an abortion, and as much as I dissaprove, I must love those people because I am no better than they are. It is not for us to judge others, but to make decisions for our own life.
I hope this has clearified a woman's issue. Walk in Faith
Shelley | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 8:41:51 PM |
Make it illegal, it will go underground.
That would go for anything else too. Doesn't mean we throw out all the Laws because it goes Underground.
Forced to carry a child to term, there will be more babies in dumpsters.
Same goes with any other crime such as Fraud, Embezzlement, Insider Trading, etc. That doesn't mean we are going to toss out the Lawbooks on it. The Laws do work. They are Deterants. But there will always be People that break them. It would never stop every illegal Abortion, any more than it would stop every Instance of Fraud. That's the Way it works. Aborting 1.7 Million unborn is a far greater Crime than 10,000 thrown into a dumpster. Net Effects have to be compared to assess the workability of Laws.
Essentially what's the difference if one choose's to drink, drive and then kills another? Should my right to have a drink be removed
No. You will lose your Right to Drive. 5 Years absolute Minimum (If you are Lucky), after 2 to 10 years in Prison. We could also then argue why prohit you from driving, if you might just illegally drive anyways. Does that mean we should throw out your Legal Restrictions and allow you drive because you are going to do it anyways?
The "right" or the "wrong" in the question is based on a false premise.
What false premise?
Abortion, like prostituion has been around since the beginning of time.
Neither are going to be solved through legislation. They are constant reminders of our own capacity for lack of judgement.
When you legalize it, you increase the Amount of Abortions. Look at 'Angel's' Statistics above.
The price to be paid, will be paid by the woman who went through the procedure
Then don't break the law, if that happens to be the Law. Her own fault, because she would be doing it all to herself. 'Watchman' has proposed a very good solution for 'Adoption'.
Taking away her "right" will make her only more desperate, then everyone loses.
If it happens to be the Law, then obey the Law. That's like saying the guy was broke and and became desperate, because there was a Law that did not allow him to defraud his Partner to solve his problem. Samething Concept, different Issue.
Anyways, my points on this Post were rather harsh - didn't mean to be, just saw some Things I wanted to point out and comment on.
Peace. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 8:46:42 PM | watchman... in an ideal world your ideas might work but reality is this... it is a very difficult thing for a woman to carry a child for nine months, no matter the circumstances behind her pregancy, and to turn around and give that child up for adoption would cause most women to become suicidal. so that's not a viable option for alot of women whether you agree with it or not... it's no you who has to carry the child to term and physically give birth so you have no idea the emotions involved.
as far as being raped and having the child... the damage that does to the child in the long run is irreprable(sp?) my son's friend was the product of rape as is her brother. their mother chose to give birth and be honest to both of them. again... whether we agree with the mother's decision or not... it was her choice and her daughter suffers emotionally for it for the rest of her life. she's a great kid, don't get me wrong but she's also forced to visit her father, the man that raped her mother. HOW SICK IS THAT? she and her brother both hate their father with every ounce of their being. they appreciate their mother being honest with them about the whole situation but it doesn't and it won't ever take away the daily pain they go through knowing they were both the product of rape between a husband and wife. and before you say a husband can't rape a wife... no means no whether you're strangers or married and i think it's far worse for a husband to rape his wife than a stranger to commit that crime.
in any event... although, like i've said in other posts on this subjet, i would not choose abortion for myself. but i would never want to see a woman's right to choose stripped from her for any reason. not only will taking her rights away do no good but it will make things worse. if a woman wants to abort, she will find a way and i'd rather see her do it safely, under the care of a qualified physician.
and i think it's extremely wierd (for lack of better words) for men to be so judgemental, insulting and pro-life about this issue when they aren't the ones that have to carry to term or physically give birth. your arguments would be so much stronger if you were woman and could actually relate to the facts about pregnancy and abortion. and as long as you are a responsible gentleman, you will never have to deal with abortion with any of your sexual partners. i do respect your opinion... i just don't think men are in a position to make this choice for women. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 9:29:08 PM | From what I see here, and previous similar threads, regardless of what arguments and Points are made, it always comes down to a fundamental difference as to whose rights take precedence:
The Right to live by the Unborn or the Choice of the Mother.
And based on all I have read, unless a Rape takes place or some Medical Circumstance exists that would jeordize the Health or Life of the Mother, the Unborn has a Right to Life. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 9:47:32 PM | I hear what you are saying, chelle belle.
From this point we could go full Circle again ... lol
Gov't Involvement & the Rights of the Unborn basically go Hand in Hand.
I guess a sort of never-ending Story, and we just have to support those in Gov't that represent the Opinions each of us have. From there on out, its 'Majority Rule'
Thanks all for your Input. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/1/2004 10:25:36 PM | | For one thing you have to make this question more direct...If you think that a woman who has been raped or is having a child that will live a life or pain due to a birth defect....or lets say a woman is having an inbreed child...I my self am against partial birth abortion, but these are the scenario's that I think are justified. Partial Birth abortion in my mind is shameful this is true murder ...this does not excuse early term aborts though i donot think it is murder untill the brain is developed. I would answer your other question but your god is no god of mine...nor is any for that matter. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/2/2004 9:55:51 AM | Lots of posts to respond to....
Make it illegal, it will go underground. We make rape illegal and it just goes underground, should we just make rape legal because people are going to do it anyway?
The price to be paid, will be paid by the woman who went through the procedure , or took the pills. Actually the heaviest price is paid by the life that was just taken, not the woman who went through the procedure or took the pills. One gets to live the other gets to die, surely the person dying is paying the heaviest price?
Essentially what's the difference if one choose's to drink, drive and then kills another?
Should my right to have a drink be removed...and in a blanket manner...EVERYONE's right to drink?? This is a highly skewed comparison. In the case of abortion the 'drink' would be the sexual act and the abortion would be the murder that occurs by car. I am certainly not suggesting we try and regulate sex (the drink) I am saying we should have equal penalties for the murder by car (the abortion).
There are no winners here. No matter how black and white you try to paint the picture. Truly there are no winners, however the one that dies is the biggest loser and they don't even get to have a say in any of this. How fair is that?
Just my take on the adoption alternative. It's an alternative to parenthood, not pregnancy. Pregnancy IS parenthood, once life begins in the womb you are a parent!
watchman... in an ideal world your ideas might work but reality is this... it is a very difficult thing for a woman to carry a child for nine months, no matter the circumstances behind her pregnancy, and to turn around and give that child up for adoption would cause most women to become suicidal. I disagree with your suggestion that 'most' women become suicidal. In fact have a look at the following link:
http://statistics.adoption.com/placing_children_for_adoption.php
Notice that adoption trends have gone down? That is directly related to the abortion rate rising. Women are just aborting lives instead of giving all these children a chance to live.
s far as being raped and having the child I wonder if those children would agree they would have both been better off being aborted? My guess is that they would say no, they prefer to live. Their emotional struggle comes from being forced to visit the man that raped their month. I certainly do not agree with that at all.
I resent the fact that others want to make the choice for me. Even though I would come to the same conclusion, it is my conclusion. The Laws that are in place to protect women from being raped were not done so because of the men that would never commit a rape. They were put in place because there are people that make wrong choices and do the wrong thing. I feel somewhat put off by the fact I have to go through intense security checks at an airport. These new laws were put into place because of the people that make poor choices, but they are in effect to protect people like me.
Making abortion illegal (save in the extreme exceptions I already mentioned) saves the lives of innocent children that have more of a right to live than a woman has to decide if she wants to have that baby. For one the choice is life and death, for the other it is merely preference. The right to live has to outweigh any preferential right. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/2/2004 10:27:11 AM |
That should she be determined for whatever reason NOT to have the child...suicide is preferable?
It's HER life too.
It is her life to and she gets to keep on living, the baby gets to do the dying....
On the 'planet' I live on I would hope that life is more important than convenience.. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/2/2004 10:44:02 AM | No one should have the right to take the life of another either. A life should always take precedent over a desire.
Why stop with the unborn though? Should we just euthanize those that get "too old" as well? That would certainly help with the "more than enough life on this planet" theory.
Perhaps we should start running early pregnancy checks to determine if the fetus is "worthy" so we can better decide if it should be aborted? How about we just jump straight to selective genetic engineering?
You're absolutely right, we'll have to disagree on this.... | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 12/2/2004 12:15:33 PM | The checkpoint illustration was simply to demonstrate that I wouldn't blow up a plane but I suffer some inconvenience because of those that would. That taking of a life should have laws to prevent it from happening even if it causes some temporary inconvenience on the part of those who got pregnant when they really didn't want to.
In the US, there are as many people that believe the way I do as there are that believe a woman has the right to end a life or not.
We'll see how it plays out the next time a case gets to the Supreme Court here...
I agree we'll have to disagree, I'll never get my mind around the position that says a life is less important than a simple preference... | |
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