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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 1349 | |
| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 8/1/2005 3:43:39 PM | Yes, that would have been what I was referring to....
My information is not republican propaganda. Heck I'm not even American. You obviously have a very strong view on killing. Maybe your right. Maybe all those extra babies being around would just create clutter. Why not dispose of them. Hey great Idea. Maybe I should concentrate on the homeless.. How bout we just put them to sleep? Clean up the streets? Heck they are only an eye sour for us anyway right? | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 8/1/2005 6:02:43 PM |
As for the ridiculous notion that the guy should have used a condom. This leads me to believe that women aren't smart enough to take precautions without a man taking the initiative. Is this what you're saying? Sounds like it to me.
I’m not entirely certain you even know what you’re talking about in the above quote.
Hun, you’d better run after that squirrel that stole your two beers. You need them more than she does. On the other hand, if they’re Budweisers, don’t bother. You Canadians are used to the strong stuff. Buds won’t make a dent. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/28/2005 12:22:15 PM | i'll take that bet. seeing as there is no hell (place conjured up to scare small children and primitive societies, i.e., those of moses time, into adopting a morally correct way of life - which i agree with). we are all just souls in various stages of development. some of the more pragmatic are the younger souls. i'm hoping for spirited (pun) debate but let's put it into perspective.
Abortion is not the answer, education and contraception are, but wait, contraception violates pragmatic Catholic dogma as well. The argument is as follows. In ancient Sparta if a father was displeased with the development of his child, the child could be killed up to the age of five. This meant a great many female babies were killed as Sparta was a war-like culture. On the other hand, pragmatic Catholics believe that it is a sin to impede the progress of a single spermatozoon because of what Moses wrote regarding God's covenant with Abram and his "seed" (Genesis 17), thus making masturbation and contraception mortal sins. Consensus dictates that somewhere in the middle is the answer.
In spite of the fact that you cannot legislate ethics, and that religion and politics should remain separate, the fine line arrived at by intelligent legislators in Canada was to differentiate between the zygote's capacity to learn, that is, brain development in the fetus versus the potential for development. If the brain is not developed, it is simply a tadpole, not a human life. How many young women have died due to "back alley abortions" prior to the legislation? How many young Catholic girls died during abortions because contraception was forbidden? How many young women who have had abortions are we traumatizing now because of all this debate?
Catholics for Life should re-read the Bible. Abram/Abraham married his half-sister Sarai/Sarah (Genesis 11:29) which was strictly forbidden by God (Leviticus 18:9), yet God chose him to be the "father of all nations". Do you read your horoscope in the paper? Better get to confession (Lev. 19:31). All you Catholic men, are you circumcised? If not, you better book an appointment with your doctor (Gen. 17). Do you like your steak blood rare, or eat pork, shrimp, scallops, crab or lobster? If you do you have sinned (Leviticus 11:7-12 and 17:10-14; Duet. 14:9). The ban on shellfish is reiterated three times in the Bible and right wing groups rely on some vague reference to Abraham's "seed" to condemn contraception and abortion. I say we go after those heathen shellfish eaters. The last update to the Catholic Catechism designated masturbation as a mortal sin. Oh oh, most of us are going to Hell. I'd imagine if Dr.Morgentaler were a Catholic he could go to confession and all would be forgiven. Hypocrisy.
It amazes me how Catholics can pick and chose which of God's laws to enforce and ignore others. The Bible tells us "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "he who is without sin may cast the first stone". If this is true, no one should attend their rallies or propagandize children. I choose to follow the teachings of love and forgiveness given to us by Jesus (Matthew 5-7). We should love one another and protect our children (the living breathing ones). | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/28/2005 6:27:04 PM | | i'm gonna go to confession & ask if it's ok for me to mastubate... i don't produce sperm, sooooooooo... technically... i'm not impeding the progress of any sperm. if i'm told it's not ok, then i'll ask for forgiveness for eating all that gosh darn shell fish but i'm not doin' penance over it... a girl's gotta eat ya know! | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/29/2005 11:59:21 PM | | Wow, that's a lot of reading, and I don't think I've got the time to go through all of it now. I will eventually, since there may be some good points that might change my mind. Don't know. As far as taking the bet, sure, if I worshiped the Christian God (or any orthodox one), I'd know the "absolutes" thing. As far as this being a religious question, however, without proof of God, proof of absolutes, or proof that an unborn child has or doesn't have a soul, the question, from a religious standpoint, for me at any rate, is moot. Regarding the political implications of allowing legislation to define behavior based on a religious perspective, that may be fine in countries with a state faith, but is inappropriate in the US. Finally we get down to the actual question of abortion, and what I think. I think the mother has the right to choose, as well as to accept the consequences. Whether or not it is the right or wrong thing to do, it is the mother's decision to keep, raise, cherish and value her offspring, or not. Would I take the bet? My gods probably would kill me, if only to teach me a lesson, no matter if I was "right" or "wrong" regarding their position. So, sure, I'd do it. Why? To learn, why else? | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 12:54:09 AM | Hello Everyone! I would take the bet without batting an eye! Since I have become an adult it always fasinates me when a group of people can hear the same testimony and few will come to the same conclusion! The first major event was the O.J. Simpson trail............OH MY GOD! At first, there were so many people on TV post verdict saying how they really beleived in his innocence, and now, I find it a rarity to find even one that really thinks he was not guilty. Concerning abortion and so many on this thread that are saying "ENOUGH" already! But instead of looking for some other posting, they post their own thread concerning same. I know that a good percentage of the readers won't read past my first line of "I would take the bet without batting an eye", because they don't want to see through my words how truely mistaken they are, but just the same I couldn't let this topic go without an effort to change at least one person's mind on such an important issue. So, hold on for the ride.
Ever heard of Ted Bundy? He loved to kill girls in their sleep. He would bash their brains in and do terrible things to their dead bodies. Now since we are taking a vote about a mother's rights to kill their children, don't you think ole Ted had a right to kill those girls? Didn't he have a right to his own desires? I mean we are talking about the "rights" of one person over another aren't we?
What about that Mother that decided to drive her car off a boat ramp with both her children straped inside? Now, if a mother has the right to kill a child that is inside of her, why should the lady that didn't want her children around anymore because she had a new fellow in her life that didn't really want kids around, be any different?
The point here is that where do you draw the line in murder? I work in a hospital and I have seen many aborted babies kept in jars. I have seen them the size of one of my fingers and they are just small children, fully formed. Why should people who kill people like the unibomber (another ole Ted...........humm, that makes me wonder about anyone named Ted LOL)anyway ole Ted K. liked to go around blowing up people that he didn't like.........hum, seems like a similar thing to me. Ole Ted likes to blow people up, so we sure shouldn't mess with his "Rights", why is he in prison? My God, he has a right to blow people up, if I beleived the same as all these women that want to look at a child as some sort of illness that only needs to be suctioned from her body. To me, it is a sign of our society in general. Everything is all about me. Sadly, life isn't about me. Sometimes we have to take responsibility for what we do and in womens cases, they have to or should have to be pregnant for nine months and then they have or should have to go through the pain of birth. Sad, but that is what happens sometimes. In mens cases, if a child is born, we have to pay child support for 18+ years...........sad but true. We all have to pay for whatever mistakes we make in life. If I thought like these abortionists..........wouldn't it be ok, for me to just kill the woman that dared to get pregnant by me? I mean, it is inconvenient for me isn't it? I mean, I will have to pay child support for 18+ years, so can't I just kill her? Isn't that stupid thinking? It sure is! Just as deciding to kill a child because I don't want to be pregnant is stupid. Were does all this end? I read one persons thread that went something like "who says murder is a sin anyway". That is stupid selfish selfish thinking. When rapists decide to take what they want without the consent of the other person, that is considered wrong! Who speaks for the child in the womb? Oddly if most of these killer women were on the street and they saw another mother slap their child or whip the child in public, they probably would be the first to call child welfare office to report the mother. OK it is as simple as this two and two is four, isn't it? So, if you kill another human being..............lets see........humm, it is wrong? If we go around killing babies, then who is next? Lets see old grandpa is kinda bothering me.......he is interfering with my time on the TV. He sometimes snores while I am trying to listen to music. He should be killed huh? We all have rights here in america, so why not give the smallest of humans the right to live? Tracy (buccaneer38) I guess you can figure out my stand on abortion huh? LOL | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 8:03:33 AM | I would take the bet because I don't belive it is murder. I'm sure I would call it murder if my partner wanted an abortion against my wishes, but that would just be from anger.
Tell me something, if you get maried, your house and everything else you own becomes shared property, you get equal stakes in each. So why is it, that something you do litteraly have equal stakes in, am embryo, belongs soley to the female? It is not part of her body any more than a flee is, it is geneticaly difrent and a seperate life form. Half of it, was created by the father, so why dose he get no say over its future? Thats like saying that although i earn $500 a week, I am not alowed to spend any of it because the actual bills themselves are owned by the government.
There is amovement in Britain at the moment to try to get equal right for fathers, they are purely intrested in the rights of men who are already fathers and yet no woman wants to support thier cause. Why? Because of F***cking femanist clap trap like the sh*te that Germain Greer sprouts saying that all men are sh*t and useless and child abussers and violent and drunks and druggies and trash! | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 9:25:23 AM | comparing abortion to the acts of a serial killer is like comparing apples to oranges. a woman who has an abortion isn't a woman who's going into other women's wombs to kill their babies, it's a woman who's making a choice for herself under her rights to privacy.
and if the embryo isn't a "part of the woman's body" who's body is it a part of bright? when carried to term... that baby resides in the woman's womb. it is the woman's body that keeps that baby alive... not the man's body. if you aren't clear by now on the fact that men only supply the sperm needed to create a child, i don't know what to tell you.
abortion is a woman's right and there are no two ways about it under the current laws protecting her privacy. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 9:33:04 AM | So is a parasitic worm also part of a womans body?
A baby is geneticaly difrent to its host, people can bear children for other parents but that dose not make the surogate woumb any part of that child. A surogate woumb has no right to the upbrining of the child they carry.
Why don't you go learn a little bit about what exactly a fetus is. You might be shocked to discover that it is exactly like a parasite, feading of the host but not part of the host. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 9:37:20 AM | bright... if i thought for one second it would be beneficial for me to "go learn a little bit about what exactly a fetus is" i might humor you and do that...
fact is... i've been pregnant... i've given birth. no more education needed. surrogacy is not the topic here... abortion is the topic and the fact is... if i got pregnant at this very moment, the choice to abort, carry to term and keep the child or put the child up for adoption, would be mine.
when men can carry children to term and give birth, then they will have the same right to privacy as a woman does in deciding to keep or terminate that pregancy. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 10:01:02 AM | Hypotheticaly, You and I are in love and have sex, we don't take precautions, you get pregnant with our child.
You want an abortion.
I wan't the child.
Who's right is it to decide the fate of that potential child?
You abandoned your right to sovereghnty over your body in this instance when you chose not to use precautions.
If you hade been ussing precautions then the right would be yours because it was an accident, but not ussing precautions takes away that right. You chose not to use precautions and so at that moment decided that you were ready for children, wether you were or not is not the isue, if you forgoe precautions.
Rights are not automatic, rights have to be granted and can be recinded if the situation calls for it. (for example a doctor has a right to withold treatment, but a patient has right to treatment, who's rights supperceads who's?)
I agrea that by and large, women have the right not to cary and can chose what happens to the fetus, but that is because most often the situation is against them, bad relationship, too young, ect, but that dose not mean that every situation is black and white.
A fetus is not part of your body, it is not your sole creation and it is not your right to singularly decide the fate of that fetus in every single situation. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 10:05:59 AM | | bright... even hypothetically... it would be my body, my choice. the current laws state that i do have "the right" to privacy... check into that some time, you might learn something. ;) i just thank god this world has laws that supercede the laws you've created in your world. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 1:13:36 PM | Actualy the "LAW" dose not state that you have the right to privacy, that is part of the civil liberties and as such is a covenant contained within the Bill of Rights, not a law. The problem with that right is that it is ocasionaly contradictory to other peoples rights. In such cases it is up to an authority to decide what is in the best intrests of ALL parties concerned, not just the mothers.
This is going to become more and more of an issue in the future as new technologies become avaliable that change the circumstances and posiblities for the parties concerned (technologies such as artifical woumbs). This is not a black and white isue no mater what you think. This issue is a growing concern for many as situations change and our civilisation moves away from the atomic family model to a more insular one.
Tell me something then, that thing that grows inside you? Is it alive? Dose it not have rights as well? What makes your rights supperced its own? Why should its right to life be overruled by your right to privacy in this case? You see it is not so easy to defend every single abortion when you consider human rights, as fetuses are human they also have rights, even if they can not voice them. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 2:09:14 PM | i'm not going to argue semantics with you bright. whether it be the "law" or the "constitution" that secures a woman's absolute "right to privacy", the end result is the same... "right to privacy" and contrarty to your belief, that "right" is absolute.
feel free to browse through this thread for more information on the stages of pregnancy... i.e. zygote vs. fetus or do your own research if you like about the different stages if you'd like to know more specific information. in any event... the black and white about this issue is that it is currently legal for a woman to have an abortion without consulting anyone and whether i agree with it or not, whether you agree with it or not, women are entitled to make these private decisions for themselves without interference from the government or any other entity. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 2:30:27 PM | But it is NOT an absolute right, the government waive that right to privacy all the time when they tap peoples phones or check your lugage at the airport.
And whilst I agrea that it is almost always a desision best left to the woman, I do not agrea that it is ALWAYS so. In law there are NO absolute laws that are unmutable and unshakable. Everything has an expetional case and there are more and more of them happening in abortion law. It is now posible for a fetaus in the last days posible for abortion to survive and grow into a fully developed baby. So it will continue to be more of an issue with the lines growing even more fuzzy as we develop new technologies techniquies and understandings. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 2:44:11 PM | As a Celtic Religion practicioner, I support full Woman's rights.
It's high time the men stop reading the Man-Written Bible during sex and stop lying to women while holding the often called Holy Bible.
Women, under Celtic Law, have full rights to the Fetus until the unmbillical cord is cut.
That means if the Woman does not like the look of the ugly little creature, she can kill it before she cuts the umbillical cord.
Fact is, Humans are mammals, they breath Air. Fetuses are part of the woman's body until the umbillical is cut.
I have to quote Scripture here:
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The Ulster Dead Lake Scrolls:
Book of Ainse. If we are Celtic, we must conform to Celtic Law.
Ainse 7:41 "The baby is not a baby until the umbillical is cut, the woman has full rights over her body until then.."
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It is Written. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/30/2005 5:02:40 PM | filmmaker... although i'm not celtic i do agree that the woman has full rights over her body. i don't believe i could ever condone a woman killing her child once it's born but i do respect your viewpoint despite being conflicted with a portion of the law you stated.
and bright... the right to privacy as it relates to abortion is completely different than having your luggage searched on private property, especially considering the post 9/11 world we live in today. again... compare apples to apples if you're going to make comparisons at all. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/31/2005 8:02:01 AM | I am compairing apples to apples. If the secrity agents have reason to belive you of suspicious activity, they can force you to submit to an intimit medical examination, how dose this differ exactly? Both are an invasion of your intimit privacy. The right to privacy is the same no mater what the situation, it can be waived when circumstances call for it. The question is do the circumstances of abortion ever cal for the right to be waived?
My opinion is that most of the time they should not, but not every time.
And what about the right to life as well?
My opinion would be that the right to life dose not begin until the fetus is developed enougth to survive if misscaried naturaly, but due to recent developments with medical science, there is now an overlap between the last date of termintion, and the date at which a fetus is capable of survivng. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/31/2005 10:17:54 PM | bright... the day i ever give someone a reason to "force me to submit to an intimit medical examination" is the day someone will have h-e-l-l to pay if they don't get a search warrant first. you have two entirely different scenarios goin' on in your head and they are at two entirely different ends of the spectrum. do a little research and post any link you can find that supports your comparison and maybe i'll see things differently. i happen to know that NO ONE can FORCE anyone to submit to a cavity search without first serving them with a warrant to do so. i have no idea where you get your information but i'm feeling you've been seriously misinformed.
in any event... even hypothetically speaking... if a woman publicly announced her intention to get an abortion... there would be nothing anyone could do to stop her from having that procedure done.
as for your belief that the right to life does not begin until the fetus is developed enough to survive if miscarried naturally... that's seems a bit backwards. women don't typically wait that long to have abortions and most doctors will not perform abortions on women passed a certain point in their pregnancy.
i'm not going to go round and round with you on this subject... post some valid links to support your ideas and maybe i'll respond to you again. til then... i'll have to bow out of this conversation as it's making me dizzy. ;) | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 1370 | |
| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/31/2005 10:22:04 PM | strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
I'll bet $50 and a bottle of forty year old cognac that this thread continues to run in circles until enough people start a flame war, that it gets deleted...for those who claim nothing is impossible: Slam a revolving door. | |
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| strong feelings about abortion? would you take this bet?
Posted: 10/31/2005 10:37:38 PM | I've also avoided this thread because these debates never ever ever ever lead anywhere but anger on both sides of the fence. But heck, it's Halloween and my mood can't get any worse, so here we go.
I'm Pro-Life. That's it, end of story. If you're raped, I'm incredibly sorry for a horrible thing that happened, but what about adoption? Why not give the kid a chance. You don't have to keep him/her, but there are people on waiting lists YEARS long for babies.
Life/Death situation: That's a rough one. I'm not a doctor, so I can't give any specific opinions on this. So I won't try. All I can say is, if there is a significant risk, then get the little surgery so pregnancy isn't possible.
I guess what gets me so angry are the people that use abortion as a birth control rather than a last resort. Morally I believe it to be wrong, so that's what I'm going to stick to.
I don't know if I'll be returning to this thread, so if any of you want to discuss further, just e-mail me. | |
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