| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 9/18/2005 8:50:30 AM | Marathon,
You still haven't named the theory, shown the studies that disproved it, shown when, or explained how. You say "it" was disproved "long ago". What theory then? How long ago? And your explanation is simply a restatement of what you already have said with a little more jargon thrown in. I did like that you mentioned mutation.
All you have done is put words in my mouth. I never said it was exactly 8 thousands years or that it was the only factor. I even reiterated that it was a rough estimate and that there were other factors.
My opinion is that climate is the greatest factor for the development of skin tone in a race over thousands of years. Mutation is one of the natural devices that would create the changes which would be chosen (figurative use) by evolution as adaptations. However, which mutations become permanent features of a race are decided by whether or not they are useful for that race in that area, primarily as those mutations relate to climate. I can't even understand why you would have a problem with someone saying that. Not only is it true, but it refutes racist ideology on a scientific level. I am really starting to wonder why you have a problem with that.
My friend, what you are doing is splitting hairs to try to save face. It isn't necessary. No one was trying to make you look bad or making fun of you. When I make a point don't take it personally and get defensive. When you argue against evolutionary change you argue against science itself.
P.S. When you misspell the same word several times it isn't a typo. Just use spell check in Microsoft word. Saves you the trouble. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 9/18/2005 9:17:33 AM | Its not just about race really, its about preferences. I'm not really attracted to black women in general but I do find the odd one that really is attractive to me. the same with redheads, I lived with one for practically ten years, but a lot of reheads dont do much for me at all. ITs the same with blondes, but brunettes, must be the majority of brunettes that I am attracted to. It doesnt bother dating outside my race but its down to being attracted to someone and then actually starting a friendship.
This makes sense. I only wish more men were extremely picky like this. Just think of the possibilities. All these poor neglected red heads, blondes, and sisters would need attention and there would just not be enough regal lizard to go around. I think I would have a heart attack. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 9/18/2005 11:21:09 AM | ONLY REASON YOU GAVE you hinted at no other mentioned no other it IS the same thing.
I failed to mention that climate is not the only factor...why state the obviouse...that's just silly...ya gotta give people more credit...people aren't that dumb/ignorant...but for this racism/segregation issue...
you gotta approach people like they have something to teach you/learn from irrespective of their background...sheesh...a bum on the street could teach me a few things/give me words of wisdom...as opposed to automatically trying to silence them...this is an open discussion to bring more awareness/enlightment/to learn from...such narrow minded thinking is what causes ignorance and intolerance...be more open minded...and that applies on many levels.
I must say...you are a smarty pants though...just bring it down a notch...another type of intelligence is wisdom...which I have far greater reverence for.
In the great words of an incredibly humbling black man..."can't we all just get along..." | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 9/18/2005 11:36:00 AM | haven't named the theory, shown the studies that disproved it, shown when, or explained how. You say "it" was disproved "long ago". What theory then?
I won't do your homework for you but here in my study I have books that should give you ADDED insight. L. L. Cavalli-Sforza,The Origin and Differentiation of Human Races (1972); A. Montagu, Man’s Most Dangerous Myth: The Fallacy of Race (6th ed. 1998); S. J. Gould, The Mismeasure of Man (1981);
Further,here is an excerpt from Columbia Encyclopedia:"All human groups belong to the same species (Homo sapiens) and are mutually fertile. Races arose as a result of mutation, selection, and adaptational changes in human populations. The nature of genetic variation in human beings indicates there has been a common evolution for all races and that racial differentiation occurred relatively late in the history of Homo sapiens. "
Now tell me,exactly WHAT have you shown besides emotion?
Would you like to disprove what I've said and now documented?
All you have done is put words in my mouth. I'll directly QUOTE YOU AGAIN BEFORE YOU MISREPRESENT THE TRUTH OF WHAT YOU STATED AGAIN:
"All race really amounts to is what human beings look like after they have stayed in the same place for 8 thousand years. If all the white people moved to South Africa and stayed there for 8 thousand years they would all look like black people (no interbreeding necessary).
If all the black people moved to Northern Europe they would look like white people after 8 thousand years. They would even have blonde hair"
Now,THAT was from your post134,if not your words....was it the lizard that typed it?
Just be a man and own up
My opinion is that climate is the greatest factor for the development of skin tone in a race over thousands of years
Ok, now that you are attempting to backpeddle and say skin tone,as if the other features of "look like" including nose,lips,hair types, and hair color do not go along with "look like".You later try to incorporate the concepts of mutation and selection I injected into this discussion,there is another bit of info you need to know.
The world is VERY different today.According to evolutionary theory natural global warming actually provided Europe with a much warmer climate some 7-8000 years ago,in fact Europe has warmed and cooled considerably a couple of times in the past 8000 yrs.Regardless,the Europe of 8000 years ago was MUCH warmer than it is today.
Now, YOU actually have the audacity to say I'm splitting hairs?
About what? I quoted you and informed you that this idea that "If all the white people moved to South Africa and stayed there for 8 thousand years they would all look like black people (no interbreeding necessary)." is NOT true. That is what I said. How is that splitting hairs? Just be a man,the evdence is here and clear. I use YOUR WORDS. This is simple.If you place "white people in South Africa for 8000 years will they look like" Zulu?No..Bantu?NO...Hottentot? NO! Mandingo? No,...Massai? NO...Amhara? NO... Nuba? NO
Lastly,you again show yourself to misrepresent:
When you misspell the same word several times it isn't a typo
Hmmm....several times? My 1st post using the term in reference to your post134 is post 136:"Although I agree with some of the other points you made....THIS is simply a theory that has been soundly disproven long long ago.In 1/16th of that time you would thing that SOME of those characteristics would have began....it has NOT.In 1/16th of that time not 1/10000th of morpological change,this is enough evidence to show clearly the theory that climate alone brought about human variation is completely false. Change although gradual is when faced with the many many morphological differences would have had SOME evidence of occurance in 1/16th of that 8000yrs....it has NOT.
I'm with ya when you're right....can't agree/nor be when you're not"
Hmmmmm.....Seems like you like to misrepresent others as well as yourself. I used the word morphological TWICE,obviously the 1st in the SAME POST is a typo
Now,this whole thing is simple.The causes of human variation are far greater than the notion of placing a group in another region or climate."failing to mention other factors" PARTICULARLY GENETIC MUTATION in the context you presented is just silly.
This SHOULD be the end of discussion 
As I said from my 1st post some of your post was correct,but THAT portion I mention simply was/is NOT! | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 9/18/2005 1:26:44 PM | Marathon, the references you give are extremely general. You still do not specifically say "what theory", "when it was refuted", and "how". In fact, some of those references are so outdated they are nearly irrelevant. These references you have just produced and your quotes from them back up what I have been saying all along.
As far as emotion is concerned. Look at the amount exclamation marks and capital letters you are using, as well as all the attention grabbing symbols. Then look at how I express myself. I am simple, to the point, not verbose. I at no time sink to insulting you or accusing you of anything.
I never misrepresented or distorted anything you said and have been civil in this discussion the entire time. Your accusation that I have done so is not to be taken lightly in these forums as it can result in a ban and I would suggest you refrain from using it, as evidence will not bare it out and might backfire on you.
Again, I have to ask you not to take what I say personally. I am simply telling you what my opinion is. I am not attacking you and you do not need to defend yourself. I have the right to my ideas and my opinions as you have the right to yours.
I will state again, my opinion is that climate (which I never stated was static) is the major factor that over thousands of years contributes the most to skin tone in a race. It is implicitly clear that mutation is one of the devices through which this occurs enabling natural selection to take place. This is obvious to the extent that it did not even bare mentioning in my initial posts. I was as aware of it then as I am now. The fact that I did not mention it was not ignorance on my part, nor deception, nor was it back peddling when I mentioned it later.
This significance of this is that races are not that different from each other on a genetic level. The things that cause them to look different are variations caused by very limited adaptations that have taken place over thousands of years. Many racists over the years have produced false science which is a mockery of evolution. There is an old Encyclopedia book from the mid 1970's still in my library stating that different races are evolved from different protohumans. It states that Europeans are descended from Neanderthals, Africans from the more primitive Homo habilis, and Asians from Homo erectus. Genetic mapping has proved all of that nonsense. All humans alive to today are 100% Homo sapiens. There aren't even any scientifically recognized subspecies of Homo sapiens.
Now why on Earth would you want to argue with that? Now unlike yourself I am not going to state that "this discussion should be over" because people have the right to discuss what they like. However, I am through with this thread. I have just laid out my thoughts in perfectly clear language. You can dissect them and interpret them however you like. I will not be bated into a useless argument that has absolutely no point. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 9/18/2005 2:52:05 PM | Marathon, the references you give are extremely general...In fact, some of those references are so outdated they are nearly irrelevant. These references you have just produced and your quotes from them back up what I have been saying all along.
Ok...enough of your childish backpeddling I have QUOTED what I disagreed with and shown you a refference that backed it up. Now,CLEARLY from your 1st post 134 to your last post.You have modified your statement.This is CLEAR.
What isn't clear is that with which YOU disagree. I use your words by using direct quotes yet you say I "put words in your mouth"
I CLEARLY identified what was incorrect with your 1st post.
I at no time sink to insulting you or accusing you of anything.
I have not insulted you and the ONLY thing I accuse you of is misrepresenting.
You have:
When you misspell the same word several times it isn't a typoJust use spell check in Microsoft word. Saves you the trouble.
Of course this was in reference to the typo of morphological,which in rush to jump on and devote time to pointing out was mispelled even though clearly in the same post the word was spelled correctly.More to this minor point is the fact that in your same post you wrote:
I just said that over time the traits that are adaptive to that envirenment would become prevelant resulting in a dark skinned people similar to current african americans
By the way its ENVIRONMENT not envirenment Do you get my point? The fact that my style is to utilize the icons/characters is not to offend you.Call it a difference in style.I like the little characters.It seems that because I VERY POLITELY disagreed with your post134..:
All race really amounts to is what human beings look like after they have stayed in the same place for 8 thousand years. If all the white people moved to South Africa and stayed there for 8 thousand years they would all look like black people (no interbreeding necessary).
If all the black people moved to Northern Europe they would look like white people after 8 thousand years. They would even have blonde hair
..you took offense and by tone and pettiness of point(morphological typo)attempted to attack.We may or may not agree on THIS point and it is not of importance at this time.What SHOULD be clear is that your statement from post 134 as quoted is NOT accurate. This is ALL I have said from my post 136 on. You have backpeddled, ammended and modified your statement SINCE I pointed out to you in post 136 and 148 the time frame makes the hypothesis erroneous and more importantly the fact that mutation,selection and diet being ommitted made your statement wholly inaccurate. It is as SIMPLE as that.
The FACT that you have modified your statement shows that you NOW understand this to be clear.
Now as to my references,I used both VERY current references and some that in the scope of books on this topic are concerned are well within the range of current scholarship. You on the other hand HAVE SHOWN NOTHING. I established that your statement(quoted above) was inaccurate in that it did not account for the MAJOR factor in human variation;mutation. With this key whole in your statement,if YOU wish to continue,it is up to YOU to establish what theory or idea your original statement is based upon. Who developed it? When? Is there evidence that would support that theory? Who says climate is the "greatest" factor?
Again,what have you shown besides argument?
Now, it is possible that you have grown away from your original statement.Perhaps you mean to say that you mistakenly omitted mutation in your original statement. Perhaps you reflected on your statement further after I pointed out to you in post 148 that mutation,selection and diet were huge factors in human variations,certainly NOT overshadowed by climate.Or,you can continue to backpeddle and ammend.Or make a blanket statement without ANY reference that gives NO credence to your statement and disappear.Whichever path you chose,if you wish to continue discussing THIS matter........back up your argument with more than your emotional argument.
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 10/10/2005 6:52:49 PM | Have done it. I would continue doing it. We do live in Canada which is quite the cultural mosaic.
I have had cultural issues on both sides. Seems like due to ethnic diversity, you end up with certain protocols that clash when you interact with other cultures different then your own. But, at the end of the day people are really not that different. You treat them with respect, spend some time, listen, and give something back and things are fine.
Really, 6 billion people on this rock. Can't we just get along?... | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 10/10/2005 7:38:02 PM | ronetregnis,Kudos;this is exactly what happens when some folks only deal w/ theories. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 10/11/2005 11:35:52 AM | Well, I have a race - its human.
Frankly I couldn't be bothered with illusianal differences when the real ones can mean something.
Personally I find much in common with people from completely differenet cultures... and sometimes the gulf between myself and someone who looks a lot like me is enormous.
Regards,
- TonyG | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 10/11/2005 7:55:00 PM | | Ive never really had a problem with race....mostly because I dont appreciate how native people are stereotyped and treated....I always try to look at how the person is on the inside....thier personality and thier heart....not the color/size/look. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 10/11/2005 9:33:44 PM | The problem isn't race that I see - I have been treated like caca by different races- and treated like a lady by different races. The only problem there could be is culture. My sister and her ex boyfriend were victims of that one - the law of his culture laid down by his mother. She wanted my sister to give up her family (never to see us again), Canada, her belifes and become his slave - and move to lebonon with no turning back. Even though they loved eachother - he was in fear of his mother (she threatend to disown him) - so he went back to lebanon and had an immediate marraige arranged by his mother. And he has been miserable ever since.
My sister went on for years sad- then met the true love of her life, and has had two beautiful children. And he isn't a different race - but he is french :)
So its not the color of skin we are born with that can be a problem - its the environment that we are sometimes forced to grow up in. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 10/11/2005 10:07:49 PM | | I have been reading through most of this thread, why, I don't know, but frankly it is a stupid subject. A wise person can see through all this. When I get in a relationship that seems right for me and the other party involved, you have to close everything out, and make a microcosm. Everything in the relationship should focus around that couple. If family becomes a problem, the mature thing is to understand that even a family should exist outside of that micrcosm. Whether mother, brother sister, father, I don't care. You give honour to your mother, and father, but they cannot tell you, i forbid you, or some other craziness. Being from Jamaica, our saying is, "many but one". Everything is mixed up. One family will manifest all races. And all those holding on to what their culture has taught, I have terrible news for you, After the next generation, your ideologies, and antiquated thoughts are going to be washed away, it's too late. These children are not turning back from the multicultured, multiracial world that is coming ever so rapidly. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 10/12/2005 9:23:53 AM | | Its really a problem here in US the land of freedom ....I date mostly opposite Color and thats really difficult, you have to travel, you get pissed on by people who think thats not right, but do you know what I am attracted to dark woman that counts!!! | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 10/12/2005 10:47:22 AM | I don't get that whole race thing; I like GUYS period; doesn't matter about skin to me; I've gone out with more sh***y white guys than any other race, and I've pretty much tried them all; that whole jungle fever thing is so over, give me a nice guy that treats me good and I don't care if he's an oompa loompa...(well maybe I would care if he had green hair and orange skin, that would be scary to wake up to...) | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 11/30/2005 12:32:58 AM | you got that right smiler127,
like who cares times have change if you like some one who is white or black or any other colour the only one that it matters is you and the one your seeing ,
no one cares nor should any one tell you who you should be with it's noones business. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 11/30/2005 3:16:53 AM | Well I'm 1/2 Aboriginal 1/4 Irish and 1/4 Scottish.
I have run into a few problems dating. I don't look native though so there are a lot of people out there who have negative feelings towards natives but who still want to date me. I have been asked to hide my heritage from their older family members before.
Anyone I date has to be sensitive to the fact that I'm half native. That I have a father who was raised on a reservation who is a full-blooded native. The blanket statements made about natives do have an impact on me. Half of my gene pool lives on reserves or is from them.
Growing up in an inter-racial household though I saw the problems. Its not always easy. If you really love someone you can overcome it, my parents are an example. My Dad is Iroquois and my grandmother used to call him "The Eskimo". I have 2 sisters who are a lot darker than me and my mother had to deal with issues of racism in school. Plus the occassional bouts of depression my father would get because of the stuff he himself had to deal with.
I have dated people of a couple different races. There were cultural differences in all them. Some bothered me more then others. When you are talking to someone of a different race you have to think before you speak. Things like the word "sunshine" mean a whole other ball of wax if you say it to white person as opposed to a black one.
I do find that I fit best and am most comfortable with people from a european descent. It just comes from being raised around tonnes of Irish and Scots. I do like diversity in my friends though. | |
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drm169
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Joined: 11/15/2005
Msg: 168 | |
| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 11/30/2005 9:25:49 AM | I would never think of dating outside my race, the human race that is. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 12/4/2005 8:45:11 AM | Okay, a few things here. I have no problem dating outside my race. But at the same time there are issues that a multi-racial couple face that you do have to be aware of because it can place strain on the relationship.
Top of that list is the way society views inter-racial couples. It never fails no matter where you go, what you do you're going to run into a bigot. You're always going to be seen as the different couple. The other point of this is how your friends are going to react to your partner. I recently broke up with a white guy because his friends looked at me like a being from another planet. As an Indian woman I didn't fit into any of their stereotypes and they couldn't handle it and simply got sick and tired of being treated with kid gloves. I'm human for frig sakes, I just happen to come from a different culture. On the other side of the coin I got sick of hearing from my friends, "hey he's a nice guy for white guy".
The other thing that kind of makes me think twice is when you meet a guy who's always telling you....."Are you sure you're an Indian? I've dated Indian women before and you're nothing like them". Or my other favorite "Oh I thought we'd go someplace where you'd be among your own people....." and he takes you to a sleezy bar in the hood. Oh for frig sakes.
But when you can find a good relationship based on mutual respect, communication, honesty I don't care what color skin the creator choses to wrap the guy in. Just leave the assumptions and sterotypes at the door please. We're human which is a good thing because I'm really not into interspecies dating. | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 12/4/2005 2:10:37 PM |
Ive never really had a problem with race....mostly because I dont appreciate how native people are stereotyped and treated....I always try to look at how the person is on the inside....thier personality and thier heart....not the color/size/look.
This is exactly what politician want to hear & what comes out of their mouths. This is also what gets them into office.
Of course in the real world & in people’s mind there’s a different take on this. Most people will not tell you directly or exactly why they wouldn’t date people outside their race. Surely they’ll give you the Mother Teresa line about being color blind, but look who they are married to or who they lived next to. There’s no doubt that the real answer lies within their racist mind & hateful heart. If anyone remembers not long ago it was illegal to married somebody who was not your color. HELLO!!! & we wonder why people are still this way?????
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SarahV
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Joined: 9/6/2005
Msg: 172 | |
| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 12/4/2005 5:40:03 PM | | I just really have nothing in common with black men ? I've tried but it never goes anywhere . I just find them too pushy or too materialistic . | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 12/4/2005 5:43:31 PM | | I recently went out with an African American guy ((and I've gone out several))... However, he seemed a little freaked out, and he finally told me why. He's never gone out with a Caucasian female before. It really surprised me, and I don't know why. I just don't see skin color when I go out with someone or "fall" for someone.. I really don't, and I have a hard time understanding when others see that first. I guess it's because I've spent most of my life looking for the best in everyone and anyone..... | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 12/4/2005 6:07:51 PM | | I date outside my race all the time as I've never dated anyone in my race | |
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| Dating Out Side YOUR RACE
Posted: 12/5/2005 12:25:29 AM | | i realy dont see color everyone is unique and i happen to think mixed race babies are some of the prettiest babies i have ever seen | |
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