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Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > Abortion [CLOSED - Run Its Course - Circular Discussion]      Home login  
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 N8_DAWG
Joined: 3/31/2004
Msg: 26
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AbortionPage 2 of 35    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35)
Find fault in my analogy.
 Slap Happy
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 27
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 7:54:06 PM
...sperm / eggs may not be life forms...because they are not sentient...but they are capable of giving life...

...all though I believe it is a womans choice...I would be upset if she decided to abort without my knowledge , after all the child is half mine , even though she is the incubator...
what happens if I want the child and she does not , who gets to make the final decision in regards to my child prospect...
 someones girl
Joined: 8/8/2005
Msg: 28
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:07:24 PM
uh huh and do you Nnumbers honestly believe any woen that decides to go through with the trauma of an abortive procedure is really doing that out of malice??? you really astound me.
 someones girl
Joined: 8/8/2005
Msg: 29
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:09:37 PM

..all though I believe it is a womans choice...I would be upset if she decided to abort without my knowledge , after all the child is half mine , even though she is the incubator...
what happens if I want the child and she does not , who gets to make the final decision in regards to my child prospect...


I don't agree with women doing that without the mans knowledge either, but in some circumstance that are extreme, it isn't a matter of choice all round the score
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 30
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:10:16 PM
Again I state.

Abortion can only be technicaly classed as murder if you can define when a fetus becomes sentient. Murder is the unlawfull killing of one sentient bieng by another. So until something is sentient, you are not comiting murder, otherwise EVERYONE would be going to hell for MURDURING the bacteria on thier hands every time they washed.


Now let me reiterate. If you abort a fetus, it can only be technicaly classed as murder. if that collection of cells has developed to a stage where it has independent thoughts and is self aware. Otherwise it is just a collection of cells with the potential to become human, just like a collection of skinn cells that are washed of with a scab. You do not consider removing that scab and throwing away those body cells as murder but they have the potential to becmoe new life forms. It is the point at which a life form becomes sentient at which its destruction would become murder, not before that point. The only way to start murder before that point would be to change the definition of murder.

And by the way, I am well aware of the Dictionary definition of murder, but that is not the same as the legal definition of murder. The legal defintion is far more concise as in the 1800's, black slaves were comsidered as property and subject tohuman rights, therefore killing black slaves was destruction of pricvate property, rather than murder. So the defintion of murder was extended to include black slaves who had no human rights. ie ALL sentient biengs.
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 31
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:14:08 PM
I hate the idea that a woman could dispose of my baby without me ever knowing, but then as a father in britain i wouldnt have any right anyway. Even if she kept it I wouldnt have the right to see it or to have any influence in its life at all, I would however still be expected to pay for its upkeep! Its ridiclus the laws in this country.

Anyways, I would be very anoyed if a woman chose to get rid of my unborn without consulting me, but sadly there are many more fathers out there ho would have been hapier if thier partners had. :(
 Jimmy66
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 32
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:14:59 PM
And most laws are BS!Whatever makes people sleep better at night is all laws are made up of.Murder is murder no matter what.
 N8_DAWG
Joined: 3/31/2004
Msg: 33
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Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:17:57 PM
[qoute]uh huh and do you Nnumbers honestly believe any woen that decides to go through with the trauma of an abortive procedure is really doing that out of malice??? you really astound me.

F**K YEAH I DO!!!

I've known too many women who use abortion as birth control. I see much malice in those instances.
 someones girl
Joined: 8/8/2005
Msg: 34
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:18:58 PM
and that makes everyone of the women in the world the same in your eyes does it
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 35
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:20:54 PM
Again i refer you to my previos post and must reiterate, aT what point dose it become murder. I am nott arguing that murder is not murder, I am arguing that it is dificult to tell when a LIFE has been taken unlawfully. If murder starts at the egg and sperm, then isnt masterbation and the monthly period murder? What about couples who have IVF? They ahve many zygotes created from thier egg and sperm, then only few are implanted, and most of those do not survive. So is IVF murder because those zygotes have had to be killed of in order to give an infertile couple a chance at bearing offspring?
 Jimmy66
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 36
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:27:36 PM
When life is taken it's taken regardless of whether it's lawful or not.Never know what that life could have been.

How is masturbation or a period murder?It's not.1)Neither one is life.They are potential to be life bit it isn't life.2)what good is one without the other?3)Sperms and eggs constantly reproduce themselves but can a life that was taken reproduce itself?

So if it's lawful to kill something it is ok?
 someones girl
Joined: 8/8/2005
Msg: 37
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:28:08 PM
Hi Bright!Raz, :o) nice to see ya around

I like your point about masturbation, oh god i'm a murderer, I bet some post-owners in this discussion are a bigger murderer by that definition And about the IVF even truer, Thats a pro life issue aswell... hmm well I'm only making myself look like I've had a procedure LMAO where the heck are the gals has nobody female been in a predicament that has lead to them using science to rectify a seriously awfull situation, be it a need to be rid of the traces/remnants of an evil perpetrator of harm or to be able to produce a new generation...
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 38
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:36:40 PM
jimmy, you never answered my question about IVF. IVF requires the creation of many potential lifes, but only one is sucessfully implanted, the rest are destroyed. If you are taking life as the point at which egg and sperm fuse into a zygote, then IVF requires the murder of hundreds of unborn just to provide a baren and infertile couple, incapable of having children any other way, the chance to bear young. So is that murder? Or is it an aceptable loss of pre-sentient cells in order to creat a new life?
 N8_DAWG
Joined: 3/31/2004
Msg: 39
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Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:37:10 PM
I must agree it's interesting that we have only one woman's view on this.

I belive life starts at conception. With masturbation and the menstral cycle, there is no conception.

As far as fertility issues... I don't know.

But I do think that sometimes we accept technological advances blindly without seeing possible reprocutions. (like whether or not IVF facilitates murder in some way)
 N8_DAWG
Joined: 3/31/2004
Msg: 40
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Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:40:13 PM

and that makes everyone of the women in the world the same in your eyes does it


I think I notice a little miscomprehension here...

For women who see abortion as acceptable birth control, yes they look the same to me.
 N8_DAWG
Joined: 3/31/2004
Msg: 41
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Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:42:36 PM

So if it's lawful to kill something it is ok?



Finally we get to core question!!!

What's more important, moral law, or legal law?
 N8_DAWG
Joined: 3/31/2004
Msg: 42
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Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:43:50 PM
And by the way, I am well aware of the Dictionary definition of murder, but that is not the same as the legal definition of murder. The legal defintion is far more concise as in the 1800's, black slaves were comsidered as property and subject tohuman rights, therefore killing black slaves was destruction of pricvate property, rather than murder. So the defintion of murder was extended to include black slaves who had no human rights. ie ALL sentient biengs.


So your saying that we have an evolving definition of murder?

Good, I can't wait untill people pull their head out their a**es and see that murder is murder and allow the legal definition to include all stages of pregnancy.

I to see that I need to bring up old posts.


Time is the only factor that comes into play, and time is a man made tool. Whether you look at the moment of conception, the first hartbeat, first movement, first thought, birth, age 1, age 2, age 50, etc., etc., etc., The same creature still exists. It has changed many times over and does not fully resemble itself at any other moment, but it is still the same creature and still exists.



Unborn babies react to the mothers emotional states and stress levels, that sounds sentient to me.

Time is still the only factor. Remove time and you have a living being. Whether a fetus or a grown person are they not the same being?

Abortion kills that being.
 Jimmy66
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 43
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:44:12 PM
By what your describing in IVF.I've never heard of it but I'll take your word on it.

Sounds to me like it's murder and life.I do not think it's right to kill of all the others and save one,if that's the case.My question is,if all the eggs are being concieved into life then how come they kill all off but one?How come scientists can not use them all if they are fertelizing them all.

How are you doing Kat.Haven't seen you in awhile.I've missed debating with you...lol.
 someones girl
Joined: 8/8/2005
Msg: 44
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:44:41 PM
but you appear to see every woman that opts for abortion as a resolution as having the same reasons namely birth control... put my comprehension right then
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 45
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:47:13 PM
Thank you N8420 I can rest happy now, knowing that someone finaly understood my point. WE DONT KNOW. anyone who claims to know the answer for certain hasnt looked at all the evidence for and against.

WE DONT KNOW!, I certainly dont have the answer, science can give facts, but it cant tell you anything about morals. And because religious texts were writen hundreds of years ago, they can give us mora guidance but cant tell us exactly when to apply them in this modern context.

I personaly will leave this subject up to the politions to discus with the doctors and will go by thier better informed opinions. But I realy do hope it is not a problm I ever have to deal with because I don't know how I coul'd decide. The choice is too dificult for me.
 someones girl
Joined: 8/8/2005
Msg: 46
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:48:03 PM
Me too Jimmy, :o)

IVF stand for InVitroFertilization and essentially is the british term for test tube baby making... and yes many more zygotes fail to develop then do go on to become embryos
 Jimmy66
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 47
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:48:47 PM
So Kat,
If a woman decides to kill her unborn child,what is it?

Cleansing,trying to forget,or what?

I would like to hear a womans point of veiw on why it's ok to kill a human being.
 someones girl
Joined: 8/8/2005
Msg: 48
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:50:19 PM

Unborn babies react to the mothers emotional states and stress levels, that sounds sentient to me.


in the latter stages of pregnancy yes thats true, but it isn't proven in the earliest stages of a beginning of the cell division and etc
 Jimmy66
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 49
Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:52:01 PM
Well I fail to agree with scientists on some things.Although I don't know the things about science like them but I do know a thing or two about morals.

Scientists created the atomic bomb.See what it created.I will not accept what a scientist and the politician think is ok to make money on.
 N8_DAWG
Joined: 3/31/2004
Msg: 50
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Abortion
Posted: 8/28/2005 8:56:05 PM


I do not see abortion due to rape or health issues as birth control.

I do see women who have casual sex without concern of pregnancy, because they know they can get an abortion, as abortion for birth control. It has no more emotional impact on these types of women as the use of a condomn would.
Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > Abortion [CLOSED - Run Its Course - Circular Discussion]