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I wouldn't say "wrong", necessarily. He's right that there isn't a federal mandate to curb abortion beyond a given point. It just goes to show that that may not be necessary to "protect the unborn" (unless that's not what we're discussion with the whole "8 month" issue).

Each abortion clinic sets their own guidelines as to how far along in the gestation period that they will perform an abortion. Here is how things break down province by province

Not true.

To me it dose mater, I'm currently undecicded as to at what point the fetus becomes human, but I do feel happy that it only slowly dose so. I feel that up untill a certain no: of weeks, the fetus is not diferentiated enough to be considered human in my mind. Up untill that point I am perfectly comfortable with people removing this fetus, as I see it as only destroying the potential to be life instead of destroying life. Its a fine line I know, but most things are.

I haven't read all the posts...

...you'll understand if this topic strikes a particular chord with me.

If you think abortion is wrong at ANY point during a pregnancy, then it IS wrong at ANY time time in the pregnancy.

You don't get to make a distinction.

Abortion is the killing of a life, plain and simple.

Whether or not you value that life is up to you, but it is still a life, and you are still chosing to terminate it.

Destroying a life because of your lack of responsibility is reprehensible.

That life didn't chose to be created, it is a victum of your failures.

I know accidents happen, but you have to be held accountable when they do.

With all the people who want kids and can't have them, there is no excuse for you not to pay the 9 month toll of birthing that child and giving it a chance with people who will love it.

...because of your lack of responsibility...

Keep your damn knees together... ...do what a responsible person does...

...you have to be held accountable...

there is no excuse for you not to pay the 9 month toll

STOP BEING A WHORE.

Abortion is the equivilant to not having drunk-driving laws.

Soon you can forget all about it and carry on being a drunken idiot.

A woman's right to chose is less important than that child's right to live.

What if your mother had believed in abortion...

Just to clarify..... whether you beleive abortion at let's say 1 month is "acceptable" and at 7 months "not acceptable", do you still beleive in the womans right to choose?

If you think abortion is wrong at ANY point during a pregnancy, then it IS wrong at ANY time time in the pregnancy. You can't say its ok here, and not there.

You don't get to make a distinction. Abortion is the killing of a life, plain and simple.

Destroying a life because of your lack of responsibility is reprehensible.

That life didn't chose to be created, it is a victum of your failures.

Don't want to have a baby? Keep your damn knees together,

take birth control, wear a condom, get a visectomy, do what a responsible person does and take precautions.

I know accidents happen, but you have to be held accountable when they do.

With all the people who want kids and can't have them, there is no excuse for you not to pay the 9 month toll of birthing that child and giving it a chance with people who will love it.

Otherwise, there is one easy and foolproof way to never have kids if you don't want them. STOP BEING A WHORE.

A woman's right to chose is less important than that child's right to live.

What if your mother had believed in abortion...

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer," says English jurist William Blackstone. The ratio 10:1 has become known as the "Blackstone ratio." Lawyers "are indoctrinated" with it "early in law school." "Schoolboys are taught" it. In the fantasies of legal academics, jurors think about Blackstone routinely.
www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/guilty.htm

On the other hand, we must also remember the phrase: "It is better that (1, 10, 100) guilty men go free than one innocent person be imprisoned or put to death." In 1895, the U.S. Supreme Court traced the history of that phrase in a case called (ironically enough) Coffin v. United States. 156 U.S. 432, 454; 15 S. Ct. 394, 403; 39 L. Ed. 481, 491 (1895).
The Court found the phrase dated back past England, to ancient Rome and Greece, and remarked that one authority, Greenleaf, claimed to have traced it to Deuteronomy. For a more thorough discussion on the evolution of the phrase, Instapundit recommends Alexander Volokh's 1997 law review article n Guilty Men.
www.talkleft.com/story/2002/09/15/295/72806

www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/abortioninfo/bc.shtml
Late Abortions Most abortions are done in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy—the first trimester. A few doctors in BC do abortions on request up to about 20 weeks. Most later abortions must be done in a hospital, although the CARE Program (604-875-2022) does abortions up to 18 weeks. Abortions are also available after 20 weeks in the rare event that your life or health becomes seriously threatened by the pregnancy, or in cases of serious fetal abnormality.

Medicare-funded abortions on request can be obtained in Sherbrooke Quebec and London Ontario up to about 22 or 23 weeks. Abortions on request can also be obtained in Washington State up to 26 weeks gestation, but it can cost thousands of dollars.

dawn.thot.net/abortion_rights.html -
Bill C-338: A private members Bill to make abortions illegal after 20 weeks.
320 abortions were done over 20 weeks gestation in 2003. ALMOST all of these occurred between 20 and 22 weeks, a small number for compelling Social reasons – e.g. teenagers who were in denial of their pregnancies, women in abusive relationships, etc. – but most were done for serious maternal health reasons of fetal anomalies.

www.euthanasia.com/cannurse
Alberta, Canada -- Though the tiny infant had been condemned to die, distraught nurses at Calgary's Foothills Hospital spent hours last August caring for it anyway. "The mother didn't want the baby, so we took turns rocking and holding it for 12 hours until it finally died," says Foothills nurse "Catherine," whose real name has been withheld to protect her job.

"Nurses were only allowed to comfort the suffering infant, but this did not even include feedings." The rejected baby's fate was sealed when it survived a so-called "genetic termination," an abortion performed only five weeks before the mother's due date.

Doctors had told her that her baby had lethal genetic defects. But Catherine could see only a baby. "I was sick for weeks," she says.

Catherine, and other maternal care centre nurses who share her views, are destined to get sicker. According to an internal Foothills Hospital memo sent to this magazine, postpartum nurses were told last month that for the first time they would have to begin caring for aborting women, regardless of their own moral qualms.

In interviews, nurses say it is unfair for the hospital to force professionals to handle abortions without regard for moral or religious convictions. But a unit caring for healthy mothers and babies is also a interesting environment for women having abortions, says Catherine. "Those women don't really want to hear a mother's newborn baby crying next door just after they've had an abortion."

Until March, women seeking late abortions at Foothills had been cared for in an area separated from new mothers and women who aborted before the 24th week of pregnancy. And according to Catherine, late abortions need to be kept separate, partly in order to avoid forcing postpartum nurses from having to do work they oppose morally. "After 23 weeks," she says, "it's pretty dicey because we're getting into viability. Babies can survive."

Late term abortions are done here by inserting Cytotec into the woman's vagina; the drug then ripens the cervix and causes powerful uterine contractions which eventually lead to premature birth. Nurses handle the procedure, giving the drug every four to six hours. But Cytotec can take four or five days to cause contractions powerful enough to expel the baby. "Meanwhile, the abortion is tying up a birthing room that's meant for couples who are having a wanted baby," Catherine says. "It's also hoped that the baby dies during labour before coming out. But not all babies do."

In fact, several babies aborted at Foothills have lived for significant periods of time, including the one born last August. "There was even a baby delivered at 23 weeks gestation that briefly survived just a few months ago," Catherine says. "Worse, from 40% to 50% of [abortions] are delivered by nurses because the doctors don't make it."

Catherine is concerned that genetic abortions are being done in her unit with increasing frequency. "Six months ago there was only one genetic abortion per month," she says. "But in the last couple of months we've seen one or two a week."

Shirley Popadiuk, Foothills' public affairs manager for acute care, reports that about 40 genetic abortions occurred in 1998. But, she says, labour-inducing medications are administered only by doctors, not nurses. She insists that nurses are not doing abortions.

However, minutes obtained by this magazine from a February staff meeting contradict Ms. Popadiuk. "Staff...will provide the patient with the medication to induce labour and do their vital signs," the minutes state. And when delivery is "imminent" nurses "will be called to do the delivery and the subsequent paper work." The document makes clear that, "No one will be excluded from the care of these patients."

Ms. Popadiuk confirms that a 23-week gestated fetus did survive termination. She describes the baby as "a rare infant, born alive with lethal injuries. It would not survive." Ms. Popadiuk says that according to hospital records, the baby received palliative care, such as fluids, warmth and comfort. She admits, however, that she has no first-hand knowledge of the case. Catherine recalls that the infant had Down's Syndrome, not life-threatening defects. And she reports that the baby lived for two hours without medical support.

Mrs. Popadiuk insisted that abortions are not performed at Foothills after 24 weeks because they are forbidden by a policy adopted by the Alberta College of Physicians and Surgeons. But when asked about the baby aborted last August, only five weeks before term, she ended the interview abruptly. "I can't answer these questions," she said. "I have to go."

Calgary Foothills Hospital senior operating officer Norma Kirkham was also unable to deny nurses' descriptions of late-term abortions and reports of babies living for hours after being aborted. "I have no idea," she said. "I'm not a clinical person and I have no personal knowledge of this at all." Medical spokesmen for the hospital would not make themselves available for comment. Nevertheless, Ms. Kirkham remained confident that, "without a doubt, no [abortions] are being done after 24 weeks."

"They aren't doing [abortions] after 24 weeks because then they call it induction," Catherine explains, "But that's just semantics." The hospital's policy is purposely ambiguous, she reports. "They have every intent of letting the child die," she says. "Induction is abortion; the baby still dies no matter what it's called."

www.chp.ca/forum/Kempling/Abortion.htm
Abortion is associated with high levels of suicide, breast cancer, and premature births in subsequent pregnancies.
The last requirement of the Canada Health Act is that a funded service must be the result of informed consent on the patient’s part. One cannot make good choices about one’s own health unless there is a complete disclosure of the risks of any treatment or procedure. As we have already seen, one large U.S. state now requires its doctors to inform prospective abortion patients of the risks of breast cancer and subsequent prematurity. Three women have successfully sued their abortion providers for failing to inform them of the risks.

Not only that, but “consent” implies that the decision be reached voluntarily. This is a major argument in the “pro-choice” position—i.e. that women have the “choice” to decide whether or not to complete a pregnancy. Ironically, research done by the Alan Gutmacher Institute (associated with the pro-choice Planned Parenthood organization) has found that 60% of abortion decisions are coerced, by a boyfriend, husband, parent, or other authority figure.
So much for “choice”!

But Sweet Treats last post regarding the legalities of Canadian abortion has made it impossible to stay away. Ya see – I can’t stand misinformation being left unchallenged. Other business first though.

Sweet Treat and Raziel: I’m going to say this once more. There are NO Canadian LAWS restricting or regulating abortion. Abortion in Canada is only restricted by a physician or group of physicians’ ethics and morals and by the medical technology of the day. All Sweet Treat did is show what individual provinces have said they themselves are willing to do and pay for. There is no law, regulation, or penalty to fear no matter what week an abortion is performed. There is nothing to prevent Dr. Morgentallers evil twin brother from setting up a clinic and performing abortions up to the day of delivery.

Please do not tell me I’m wrong again unless you can provide the law that states differently. I have a few sites for you to check out regarding this topic.

320 abortions were done over 20 weeks gestation in 2003. ALMOST all of these occurred between 20 and 22 weeks, a small number for compelling Social reasons – e.g. teenagers who were in denial of their pregnancies, women in abusive relationships, etc. – but most were done for serious maternal health reasons of fetal anomalies

Women can have an abortion in Ontario up to 20 weeks from their LMP. In some
major circumstances, procedures at later gestational stages can also be performed at other
centres."

Please note social reasons after 20 weeks. NOT HEALTH.

You can google Alan Gutmacher Institute to learn more about the source.

Not only that, but “consent” implies that the decision be reached voluntarily. This is a major argument in the “pro-choice” position—i.e. that women have the “choice” to decide whether or not to complete a pregnancy. Ironically, research done by the Alan Gutmacher Institute (associated with the pro-choice Planned Parenthood organization) has found that 60% of abortion decisions are coerced, by a boyfriend, husband, parent, or other authority figure.
So much for “choice”!

If you think abortion is wrong at ANY point during a pregnancy, then it IS wrong at ANY time time in the pregnancy. You can't say its ok here, and not there. You don't get to make a distinction. Abortion is the killing of a life, plain and simple

That life didn't chose to be created, it is a victum of your failures.

Don't want to have a baby? Keep your damn knees together, take birth control, wear a condom, get a visectomy, do what a responsible person does and take precautions

I know accidents happen, but you have to be held accountable when they do.

With all the people who want kids and can't have them, there is no excuse for you not to pay the 9 month toll of birthing that child and giving it a chance with people who will love it

Otherwise, there is one easy and foolproof way to never have kids if you don't want them. STOP BEING A WHORE.

Not a very high opinion of our human family, there. Or, your own genetic heritage, one might be inclined to notice... Unresolved issues? Perhaps

So I fall in the pro-choice camp because I refuse to let MY personal fealings interfear with the choices of another.

Fginto,

So by your own definition and admission, you are a son of a whore?

Second, those stats are from 2003...that's 4 years ago, things change annually.

You know you were wrong on the stats you originally quoted and now you are trying to find any tinnnny bit of evidence that supports your inaccurate claims.

They still had a choice. They choose to listen to a boyfriend, a husband, etc. BUT at least they had the choice to decide either they want an abortion for themselves, for someone else or not at all. Again, you are just grasping at straws here.

Each clinic does set their own preference for when in the gestation period they will no longer perform abortions, but they can not exceed the 20 weeks. So the cutoff is legislated in Canada at 20 weeks, unless for special circumstances. My cousins husband just emailed me from his office (again he works for the Minister of Health) and this is exactly what he got from his office:

if he doesn't have the correct information on abortion laws in Canada, I'm not sure who would.

My information came directly from the Government of Canada, and I even sited sources of the information. If you choose to not beleive the government...that's your issue...not mine. George Smitherman is the Minister of Health here in Ontario, my cousins husband works directly under him. He forwarded me the email from Smithermans office itself, with links to support what he was sending me. I quoted them, feel free to check them out. Again, if you want to argue with The Government, that's your choice...but don't argue with me over Government facts. And please do not tell me that I am wrong when you yourself can't provide any statistics directly from the Canadian Government as I have that state otherwise

Don't be making this statment without citeing the stats you're referring to. My stats are bang on, so please produce.

So you are perfectly fine with women being coerced into having abortions? And we're not talking a small number here. And the info was gathered from a pro-choice supporter.

But you were not showing me anything on abortion law. You were showing abortion limits for a bunch of hospitals and clinics. And as I've explained now for the third time those are the ethical and moral limits of the physicians or health officials in charge. They are NOT legal limits. They are self imposed limits for what they are willing to do. Big difference.
You say there's a cut off legislated at 20 weeks but you don't present the legislation. I'm saying it doesn't exist. And I couldn't care less if your cousin is the Health Minister himself. Produce the legislation.Because what you've shown me so far does not back what you have been saying.
Plus, you never addressed the new information on abortions simply being performed under the guise of induction. So the true numbers of abortions and the gestation periods are both higher then what is being reported.

You refer to man's laws and not God's.

Gods law is simple...THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER.

I do not see abortion due to rape or health issues as birth control.

I do see women who have casual sex without concern of pregnancy, because they know they can get an abortion, as abortion for birth control. It has no more emotional impact on these types of women as the use of a condomn would.

know accidents happen, but you have to be held accountable when they do. With all the people who want kids and can't have them, there is no excuse for you not to pay the 9 month toll of birthing that child and giving it a chance with people who will love it. Otherwise, there is one easy and foolproof way to never have kids if you don't want them. STOP BEING A WHORE.

Ya see – I can’t stand misinformation being left unchallenged.

You asked why I’m fixated on the 8 month thing. I’ll tell you why. The majority of this thread has been focused on the other end of the spectrum.

Discussing cells, sperm, zygotes and the such, and debating the point when life actually comes into existence.

It seems then, only fair that we spend sometime on the other end of the debate.

That part of the issue that pro-choice wish could be swept under the carpet.

That being, the point when we KNOW life exists yet continue to allow abortions.

The courts ruled a baby is not considered a sentient being until it takes its first breath outside of the womb. So no matter how late into a pregnancy, no doctor will ever be able to be charged for performing an abortion under Canadian law.

There are NO Canadian LAWS restricting or regulating abortion.

Abortion in Canada is only restricted by a physician or group of physicians’ ethics and morals and by the medical technology of the day.

There is nothing to prevent Dr. Morgentallers evil twin brother from setting up a clinic and performing abortions up to the day of delivery.

I have a few sites for you to check out regarding this topic.

Most abortions are done in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy—the first trimester.

Most later abortions must be done in a hospital, although the CARE Program (604-875-2022) does abortions up to 18 weeks.

Abortions are also available after 20 weeks in the rare event that your life or health becomes seriously threatened by the pregnancy, or in cases of serious fetal abnormality.

Medicare-funded abortions on request can be obtained in Sherbrooke Quebec and London Ontario up to about 22 or 23 weeks.

Abortions on request can also be obtained in Washington State up to 26 weeks gestation, but it can cost thousands of dollars.

Please note social reasons after 20 weeks. NOT HEALTH.

ALMOST all of these occurred between 20 and 22 weeks, a small number for compelling Social reasons – e.g. teenagers who were in denial of their pregnancies, women in abusive relationships, etc. – but most were done for serious maternal health reasons of fetal anomalies.

I found this article both disturbing and illuminating.

None after 20 weeks eh?

Did you catch the baby just had downs syndrome?

And people being forced to take part in abortions that they don’t want to? Didn’t Feral say that kind of thing can’t happen?

So playing semantics the real numbers are hidden. Kinda makes you wonder how many late term abortions are really being performed.

In answer to the OPs question: I’m not sure what God you answer too – but IMO mine definitely has a problem with it.

So the courts have even decided the risks are real enough that patients can sue for failure to disclose this vital information.

Not only that, but “consent” implies that the decision be reached voluntarily.

So much for the choice of the woman you all so adamantly defend. Turns out you’re not doing them such a favor after all. For many would prefer not to have aborted according to these stats, but are, instead, coerced into it.

Why do you and others expect a law on abortion to be iron clad, when no other law I've ever encountered in life is?

Please note, it said a SMALL number. Nothing is perfect, no one is perfect, no law is perfect and most importantly you don't know why they decided to do it. Nuff said.

If you have better stats then produce them.

So you are perfectly fine with women being coerced into having abortions? And we're not talking a small number here. And the info was gathered from a pro-choice supporter.

They are self imposed limits for what they are willing to do. Big difference.

Plus, you never addressed the new information on abortions simply being performed under the guise of induction. So the true numbers of abortions and the gestation periods are both higher then what is being reported.

End of discussion between you and I.

The problem with our society goes back to extremist liberal ideology and the absence of moderatism or even dissention itself.

Take the orignal poster...if most people think like this individual in western society...then we truly are doomed to a horrible and terrible decline of not only values but of the worth and sanctity of life itself.

But abortion crowns the head of ruthless evil upon children.

So they can't yell fowl that you're just a religious zealot.

I mentioned in past posts that I was opposed to abortion long before I turned Christian. But people keep insinuating (not just you) that a pro-lifers stance is religiously based and therefore has less credence.

I think the point of viability is critical.

To say, as some have, that they dont agree with or support 8th month abortion, but it is the woman's choice is (to me) the equivalent of saying you dont support child abuse but it is the parnet's choice.

Aborting a fetus that has grown to viability is, IMHO, murder - aside from any semantics about it having yet to breathe its first breath - and I think it should be outlawed.

The example that we draw from nature is that a fetus wants to live, and given the ability to do so, will STRIVE in life to see the next day...

If you were to take the fetus for destruction from the belly of a kangaroo while it was on its journey to the pouch, I am sure that PETA would have you in a cell quicker than you could say, "But WE decided!". Yet we allow this same thing to be done to human fetus'...

But most likely our choice figures to be less than 50% by the time you figure that our choice is not foolproof...

...but it is not very difficult to offer non-religious reasons against abortion.

My dad was pro choice and didn't feel that abortion was murder because he believed that a person did not become a living SOUL until they began to breathe air.He based this on the scripture in Genesis that states that when Adam was created from the dust of ground,he did not become a living soul until God breathed into his nostrils.

And, with all the orphans and unwanted children languishing in foster care and orphanages around the world, that's a pretty crappy argument, wouldn't you say? "So many people want kids these days, let's ignore all the kids who want families and force everyone who gets pregnant to flood the world with more!" Yeah, makes sense to me.

To pro abortionists: If murder is a matter of viability, then why don't we as a society, shoot old crippled people instead of putting them in nursing homes. They aren't viable outside 24/7 care.