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| Abortion
Posted: 10/5/2007 5:21:25 AM |
Have any of you ever had to weigh the decision of whether or not to have one?
I highly doubt it.
And this is the crux of the argument.With only a few exceptions,the anti abortion people,the high profile ones anyway,seem to be more concerned with their 20 second TV sound bites than trying to understand the other side's POV. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/5/2007 7:49:14 AM | wow.. U are an idiot. Because your form of government has said its not a crime u believe (for as much as I can tell) that it is not one. You need the reassurance of your government to make something wrong? In reality abortion is not yet a crime. Ethiclly however it is, have you seen pictures of an aborted fetus? They have hands, feet... its small and your yet to feel it move but its still alive. If it wasnt there would be no need for terms like "still born" or "miscarriage" Both of those are the DEATH of a LIVING thing. If something is not living than how does it die? All that are for abortion.. Aren't you glad your mom chose not to murder you? Everyone knows the consequences for having sex, if your not "ready for a child" than your obviously not ready to have sex. Its not the child's fault that your too big of an idiot to take on responsibilities of your actions. Also, if abortion is a good thing than why does it so often leave the mother feelin like a murder? Why are so many of the women who've decided on abortion depressed and/or on depression medications? Maybe its because now they've relized that they are just as bad as the man sitting in prison for killing his 18 month old.
If god wanted abortions than why the hell would he make it a point to say SAVE SEX UNTIL MARRIAGE?? | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/5/2007 11:21:36 AM |
wow.. U are an idiot. Because your form of government has said its not a crime u believe (for as much as I can tell) that it is not one.
and because some old book says it is a crime, you believe it is one. Take a walk through the Old Testament and see the atrocities that are not considered criminal and you'll find that your moral compass has a lot less to stand on than someone who follows the laws of the land.
In reality abortion is not yet a crime. Ethiclly however it is...
Thanks for your opinion on what is ethical and what is not ethical.
If it wasnt there would be no need for terms like "still born" or "miscarriage" Both of those are the DEATH of a LIVING thing.
Millions of LIVING things inside you died as you read this sentence. Do you wail in grief for the death of living things? - No. You wail when someone does something contrary to your interpretation of the bible. It isn't ethics that guide you.
Also, if abortion is a good thing than why does it so often leave the mother feelin like a murder?
Weak argument. If quitting a drug addiction is such a good thing, why does it leave you with withdrawals?
If god wanted abortions than why the hell would he make it a point to say SAVE SEX UNTIL MARRIAGE??
Oh did He say that? Does he even exist? Even if He does exist, farbeit for you to have any idea what he likes or dislikes. There's a lot of religions with a lot of deities and a lot of opinions on what those deities are okay with and what they aren't okay with. Your deity and your religion is no better than any other. | |
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| Abortion God acctually sanctions abortions
Posted: 10/5/2007 12:02:35 PM | Shatray, Since you believe in The Hebrew text and believe that everything it say there about sin must be true then You need to understand that god does allow for abortions. Yes it is true! I can direct you to the passages where God not only allows abortions he gives the priest the recipe to perform an abortion.
Please read numbers 5:11 to Numbers 5:27
In case you are lazy, I will give you a summery
If a Husband suspects but does not have proof, that his wife maybe carrying another mans baby . He can force her to go to the local priest. There the Priest mixes a concoction made with bitter water and dust from the temple floor . there is a ceremony that goes with this and some prayers as well. Now the woman drinks this mixture and if she becomes sick , your belly swells and her thighs rot she then miscarries. She is deemed to have sinned and be a harlot. Some public announcement is made so that every man knows she is unclean with disease rotting genitalia. Not a very pretty picture. Most likely she would be unable to ever have any other children. If on the other hand nothing happens then she must have been without sin. She will havea baby . I suppose all would be fine. Now how would you feel if yur husband made you take this "test" and you passed? Would you be hurt? would you be angry?
This is all just up to her husband. If he gets jealous, she has to go thought this horrible ceremony and " prove " she is without sin. This is clearly a forced abortion. One that If you read the 1st verse God commands this to be done. " And God said unto Moses."
abortion is in gods will and he even commands that woman should be forced to under go abortion. Of course only if her husband thinks it is needed. | |
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| Abortion God acctually sanctions abortions
Posted: 10/5/2007 2:53:45 PM | First of all I would like to say that even the bible does not consider early abortion murder...only after the woman has felt the "quickening". It is people's sensibilities that make them think that an embryo is more than it is. You can not look at an infant and compare it to an embryo.
Collections of cells...are potentials, many are aborted naturally, sometimes the woman does not even know she was pregnant...until a fetus has a functional brain and nervous system there is no way to call it a human being. It is an embryo...and can not exist outside the mother..it is effectively a part of her body until it is viable. Women are not incubators... we share much more than a simple blood system with our babies, it's a very complex symbiotic relationship...it is also dangerous...women DO die as a result of pregnancy and childbirth, women do develop very real problems as a result of pregnancy. There is also a huge amount of emotions connected to being pregnant..hormonal and psychological. It is something a man can not understand...at all...only if you have experienced it could you know how it can completely change you. I know I could not possibly carry a child and give it up for adoption, unless there was no other way..I just could not do that...the bond would be too strong. Some women are not made for pregnancy and motherhood...or don't want that. Some women would be retraumatized by carrying a child of rape...some wouldn't. I guess the anti-choice people would see celibacy as the only choice for women... not going to happen. Why is it that a large percentage of the anti-choice people are male anyways? It is something maybe that they can't control...and that just pisses them off?
Next...birth control is not 100% effective (only abstinence and sterilization are, and even sterlization fails sometimes)...and why aren't men held accountable for birth control also? I don't see much immaculate conception happening. My lovely daughter is the product of that 1%...I was on the pill...that had worked marvelously for years until I got that little surprise.
Women have practiced abortion and birth control since the beginning of time.. there are formulas from Babylonia and Egypt for birth control and such...
Women who feel trapped and frightened are going to have abortions whether they are legal or not...happens all over the world, every day... the only difference is that here in the west, women (and girls) aren't dying of sepsis and hemorrage.(sp)
In some countries infanticide is common, men and women murder babies (usually by asphixiation or exposure) because they aren't the right sex, or have other issues...where is all the condemnation of this?
The rate of violence against women, all over the world, through rape, genital mutilation, wife abuse, incest and war and just plain subjegation of women is very high. Maybe if we spent more time trying to change this there would be less reasons for abortion. If we taught our young men and women more about sex, and birth control, and responsibility for their sexual behavior and choices, maybe there would be less reason for abortion.
I won't even go into poverty...well maybe I will. Most of the people who condemn other's choices have never really experienced extreme poverty. Think about an inner city teenager...who finds herself pregnant...the guy books on her. She can pretty much kiss her education goodbye... she will end up, most likely like a lot of women she sees around her...extremely poor, stuck in crappy jobs, IF she can find childcare, alone and stigmatized. Her chances for making a good life for herself and children are pretty bleak. She's alone, she's scared, she is trapped. How many of these young women end up abusing their kids? Quite a few I would think. They don't have the coping skills, or money to deal with being a good mother. Some do a great job, sure...but some don't. How many people on this earth are seriously f-ed up because of parental or other abuse? Is it better for a child to come into the world regardless? Or does it not matter that that child may know nothing about feeling safe, security, acceptance, love, regular food? How many children die from broken bones and broken hearts? More than anyone knows. How many children are used and abused for sex by pedophiles (usually someone they are related to, or know well...it is frequently incest, and even more frequently by a male relative)...I would say most of those children do not have good parents. Look in your bulk folder in your email and tell me this is not a serious issue. But I don't see a lot of conservative people wanting to tackle these very real issues. When do we protect the people, the children, that are here? When do we deal with the ugliness around us, instead of judging those that may well be doing the most loving thing they can?
Most career criminals were abused or neglected, as were most pedophiles and wife-beaters. How many prostitutes do you think had a nice home life? Very few happy, loved girls decide one day that prostitution is the job for them.
This issue is not even remotely cut and dried...and most of all it is between a woman, her partner (if he is interested and not violent) and her conscience.
I don't like that sometimes abortion is abused...used as a means of birth control. I personally have never met anyone who did that, but I know it happens. I would like to live in a world where every child is wanted and loved...where society cherishes children... that, sadly, is not the case. However these are not good enough reasons to take away access to safe abortion.
lastly...anyone who has had, or is planning to have sex is taking the chance of procreating. I read the forums...most men are not all that interested in waiting until marriage for sex...and a lot of women also. Regardless of religious beliefs...I can't seem to reconcile this anti-abortion attitude with the attitude about sex. Especially among men. It doesn't make a lot of sense....especially when the majority are willing, nay insist, on having sex before making a commitment. The two ideas do not jive.
That's my opinion..I've done my homework on it...and I will fight tooth and nail to preserve the right to choose, until such a time that it is no longer necessary...which I doubt will be in my lifetime. | |
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| Abortion God acctually sanctions abortions
Posted: 10/5/2007 8:10:56 PM | I'm with you Ravenstar here are my reasons:
The beauty of living in America is that we are a nation whose foundation extends freedom and the rights accorded under the law to those freedoms,(of choice) for each ‘individual’.
As such, we do not all share the fruits of our individual labors as an
extended family. We do not bear children with any idea that we may be
contributing the next best thing to humanity that ever existed. We do
not bear a child and then vote within a community on how to raise this
child nor is there even any personal contact between a baby and every
individual of a community. The fact is, many children do not even have
an extended family. We are a society of individuals.
Further the law specifically prohibits physicians from discussing or divulging anything that transpires with a patient. A woman, is a patient and when she seeks treatment for any physical condition, is strictly between her and the physician, with few exceptions as directed mostly by the CDC, and in any case can not, nor should any of that information be put in front of public eyes much less up for a vote.
If a woman laid an egg, who would know weather she nested with it or
not? Who would know that she just didn't throw it away? If a woman has a
fertilized egg and chooses not to sit on it, whose business is it but
hers? No one is the wiser and there is no debate.
AND FOR THE FATHERS – TRIPPY (sorry that you sufferd)
When it is possible for a fertilized egg to
be painlessly, without affect, removed from a woman and allowed to
develop and thrive elsewhere, AND THE MAN is willing to take the burden
of all the expense and sole parenting rights, then would I agree that a man has a right to be involved in that decision.
Until then,
every man must know, that any seed they deposit into a woman, is in the care of that woman until the birth of a child. That means, she will do as she sees fit, because every minute of every day that a woman is pregnant affects her, physically, emotionally and financially.
Men and Women both carry a burden
For men the burden is knowing, any time they consent to giving up
their seed, they risk the "choice" of the woman into whose care that
seed was deposited.
"Any time", is not limited to the flings, they also include, acts within a committed relationship. This is the burden of a man..
It's a great burden and it requires that every man accept the consequences of their actions. This can mean if a woman stays the natural course, the man involved, is then a father and that includes all the responsibilities the law and general morals allow, and should be equally met by both parties.
For this reason, I never discount the emotions of men who are, involved
in such issues. This is all part of the education process that should
be geared toward young men, before their young sexuality leads them into
such anguish. Women also need to understand their role and accept the consequences they may have to face.
The burden for Women is far greater than for a man.
We can not conclude that a woman who becomes pregnant, has disregarded
her role in a consensual sex act. This is where the difference lies. We can not make ALL pregnant women choose the same natural course that leads to birth, because; the
situations of conception, or that arise,(for a woman)after conception,
are completely subjective.
As already mentioned the affects of pregnancy are varied and there are many risks. Not just medical for her, but what of a high risk baby, what of genetic dysfunctions. There may be no health insurance. There are just too many issues to consider including the question of the fathers rights, and the question of morality. All of these are the woman’s burden and NO ONE ELSES.
We can not be privey to them all and we, not being where she is, can
never determine a proper course of action for her. Only she can do
that.
Viable alternative:
Again, I will say, until there is a viable alternative available that
would allow for the extraction and incubation of a fertilized egg. And
when the laws exists that hold either, the father or the community
responsible for the support of all unwanted pregnancies including all
medical needs, home care and education, through adulthood, I will
continue to be pro-active with a womans rights over her body.
These issues, along with disease, should always play the largest part in
sex education.
This is not a stand against men or any single man, it is not a stand
against religion. This is the only possible logical conclusion, at this
time, for people who expect entitlement to certain inalienable rights.
Those rights include what a person does with their own body. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/6/2007 2:33:55 PM |
And this is the crux of the argument.With only a few exceptions,the anti abortion people,the high profile ones anyway,seem to be more concerned with their 20 second TV sound bites than trying to understand the other side's POV.
Indeed. They don't care if the baby is left to its own devices in a setting devoid of any real, healthy love, affection, and nurturing. They would rather see children suffer, abused, molested, beaten, abandoned, etc., rather than have that much less suffering in the world.
Everything would be easier if every person was chemically sterilized at birth, then had to apply for alicense to have the process reversed and procreate. But that, too, is a monstrous alternative.
It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where nobody ever needed an abortion.
But we don't. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/6/2007 4:45:06 PM | | Sadly, so many "pro-lifers" stop caring about the child once he or she is born. Many of the politicians that they back just vetoed or voted against a children's health insurance bill. They back evil politicians who are not genuinely concerned at all about children who are already born, and even worse, many of them are killers themselves. Bush has killed thousands in Iraq and also killed 150 people in Texas when he was governor. The death penalty is state sanctioned murder! Anyone who is genuinely pro-life would support programs to help needy children, and would oppose the death penalty. That movement has lost credibility with me, and I am at the point where I just don't care anymore about the abortion issue. | |
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Posted: 10/16/2007 2:19:07 AM | | I don't understand the whole "a child is a blessing from god" blahblahblah bullshit. Getting pregnant & creating children is a BIOLOGICAL PROCESS. Nobody is magically implanting babies (unless you count that movie I saw on Sci-Fi.) You were not "blessed by god" with anything. YOU created the embryo. There is no miracle or magic behind it. Sure, the process itself can be rather fascinating, but science usually is. | |
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Posted: 10/16/2007 10:33:38 AM |
I don't understand the whole "a child is a blessing from god" blahblahblah bullshit. Getting pregnant & creating children is a BIOLOGICAL PROCESS. Nobody is magically implanting babies (unless you count that movie I saw on Sci-Fi.) You were not "blessed by god" with anything. YOU created the embryo.
Absolutely,Pisces.Yet we're talking about religious zealots here.The type of mindset that shuts off rational thought and replaces it with "faith".Faith based thought,by it's nature stops logic and rationality in it's tracks.This is the type of thought that would rather believe the stars are jewels in the sky that God put there as decorations and not the hot balls of swirling gases they are.
They would probably rather believe that Keebler cookies are made by elves as well.
Funny you should mention the Sci Fi channel.I was watching Star Trek Enterprise last night and the episode was about religious zealots taking over the ship.
As man progresses more and more scientifically,religion either has to evolve with man or fade out in my opinion. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 12/29/2007 2:31:56 AM | That statement makes NO sense at all. A person can have an objective moral claim or an objection about an issue without being required to act upon it.
I agree,That statement makes NO sense at all... for you : D
A person can have an objective moral claim or an objection about an issue without being required to act upon it, I agree with you but that was not the point when I give my opinion.
Because surely, my kids and my wife have VALUE, “Independent” of how I treat them, I agree with that, they have VALUE... in your opinion, and it is TRUE... for people that shares your opinion, what is the TRUE for you, is NOT the TRUE for the rest of the world remember that.
The same is True for the developing person in the womb, well could be True IF embryos and fetuses are defined as persons, but it seems that your definition of person is not shared by all people in society.
At present, 2 Million American Families are waiting to Adopt. This TRUE figure was put out by The National Center for Adoption in “response” to a Pro-Abortion “claim” that Only “WHITE” babies are wanted for Adoption.
It doesn't matter how many families are waiting to adopt if the root of the problem is not fixed, the answer to stop abortion is prevention of conception with birth control methods, if birth control methods fails abortions should be the last resource and it should be administrated by professionals, because just face it will be continuing to happen even if it is banned, people will find a way to have abortions in a clandestine way and that is very costly in a social and economical scale. | |
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Posted: 12/29/2007 8:52:58 AM | Piscescoda, you said,
"I don't understand the whole "a child is a blessing from god" blahblahblah bullshit. Getting pregnant & creating children is a BIOLOGICAL PROCESS. Nobody is magically implanting babies (unless you count that movie I saw on Sci-Fi.) You were not "blessed by god" with anything. YOU created the embryo. There is no miracle or magic behind it. Sure, the process itself can be rather fascinating, but science usually is. "
The classic verse that life begins in the mother's womb is Psalm 139:13 which states, "For you (God) created my inmost being: You knit me together in my mother's womb."
If this is not God's blessing, then I don't what you'd call it. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 12/29/2007 4:24:32 PM | I suppose that we can count many other blessings from god......I also suppose that it's in part due to these many blessings that I am not a believer personally. I also prefer the approach that we are governed by biology rather than spirits or even flying spaghetti monsters.....
There seem to be a very few conclusive biblical statements to corroborate the position that god is opposed to abortion, but many to support that he is in fact, not opposed to abortion, or even infanticide. In addition to the usual examples of “thou shall not kill” and ”I kneweth thou in the womb,” there are many other examples of these blessings: (please excuse the length of this posting)
Hosea 9:11-16 - Hosea prays for god’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Numbers 5:11-21 - The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife suspected of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 - “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.”
Hosea 13:16 - god promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up.”
Kings 15:16 - god allows the pregnant women of Tappuah to be “ripped open.”
Samuel 15:3 - god commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 - Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 - Where god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.
Leviticus 20:9 - “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 - Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 - “O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
Kings 6:28-29 - “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Exodus 12:29 - god killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place.
Exodus 20:9-10 - god commands the deaths of 12,000 women and children.
Leviticus 26:30 - Ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
Isaiah 13:15-18 -god can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife. | |
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| Abortion God acctually sanctions abortions
Posted: 12/31/2007 9:39:33 AM | ravenstar66 is correct. Traditional Biblical Law considers "quickening", not conception to be the point at which the embryo becomes more than just a collection of cells.
In fact, 1/3 of pregnancies spontaneously abort prior to this point, so to think otherwise would make nature the greatest abortionest of all!
As to killing a "living thing", or "stopping a beating heart" hasn't anyone ever heard of insecticide? Or anti-bacterial soap? Come on now. We eagerly kill living things all the time. If you don't want to kill a "living thing", or "stop a beating heart", stop eating hamburger! 
Oh, you mean "Those living things!"  The one's your religion has chosen! Sorry, I don't buy that.
I respect religion, but feel that we must not allow one religion's views to dictate law. I understand that some religions feel that the soul joins the embryo at conception. But this is just one view, and not the traditional view either.
If we allow this view as law, we sanction 1/3 of pregnancies ending in murder by natural means. Would God allow this to happen? | |
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| Abortion God acctually sanctions abortions
Posted: 1/1/2008 5:29:29 AM | Another way to decide whether abortion is a justifiable practice is to think through the implications of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. The question is, at what point was the personhood of Jesus present?
In brief it had to be present at the point of conception. Both the New Testament and the doctrinal creeds of the Church, affirm that God became man at the point of conception. The Eternal Son of God became Incarnate in Mary's womb. Christ's personal history on earth began not when He was "born of the virgin" but when He was "conceived by the Holy Spirit" (Luke 1:31, 35)
It is significant that God chose to begin the process of Incarnation at the point of conception rather than at some other point. But Christ "had to be made like his brethren in all things" (Hebrews 2:17); His human history, like ours, had to begin at conception.
Lawyers Herbert T. Kimmel and Martin J. Foley argue that because Jesus was fully present at conception so must every other person as well. Now given the facts established by Holy Scripture that (a) Christ was fully God and fully man and (b) Christ was conceived by the Holy Ghost, our argument can be stated succinctly:
1. "Conception" literally means the process which terminates the initial presence in the womb of that which is conceived (i.e., the single cell entity referred to in biological terms as a zygote). Consequently, when one says that Mary conceived by the activity of the Holy Ghost, one must mean that which the Holy Ghost produced in and through conception was the initial presence of the zygote.
2. The zygote the Holy Ghost brought about in Mary's womb was Jesus Christ, true God and true man, in His human nature like man in all things except for sin.
3. If Jesus (true God and true man) was present in his mother's womb from the first moment of His conception, then it follows that other men must also be alive and existing as human beings from the first moments of their conceptions; for unless they are the same as Jesus in this respect of their human nature, He would not be like them in every essential human respect except for sin. This is to say, then, that a human being must be fully present as such from the moment of conception.
For the poster who referred earlier to the Immaculate Conception. That has nothing to do with the conception or birth of Jesus. That is the Catholic teaching that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, was born without sin. | |
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| Abortion God acctually sanctions abortions
Posted: 1/1/2008 12:16:38 PM | Jesus wasn't "anointed" by the holy spirit until his baptism by John the Baptist (age 30?)
The bible clearly states that an embryo is not a person until "quickening". Hence the law that if you kill a pregnant woman it is two murders AFTER this time, but only one before.
Other than that..I will support Pro-choice because it is the only position so far that promotes intelligent birth control, STD awareness, safe sex and sex education. I wish there were no need for abortion (maybe we could all stop BREEDING so much...the earth has enough people as it is) but that isn't reality...and to try to force one's RELIGIOUS ideals on all women is unjustified.
When I see anti-abortion people ADOPT, or become foster parents, and regulate their own reproductive abilities responsibly and get involved in parenting education, prenatal care, support for parents, and child abuse issues... then maybe I will look at another view. (I include all the children over 2 in foster care in this, as well as all the children in foreign orphanages, and troubled or handicapped children....adopting babies is nice but there are far too many CHILDREN in need of good homes) Until then I believe we have a responsibility to the people who are already here...first.
Peace...and Happy New Year! | |
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Posted: 1/1/2008 12:28:19 PM | | I have no idea what your reference to the baptism of Jesus at age 30 has to do with this discussion. The first chapter of Luke clearly teaches that Jesus was conceived (verse 31) by the power of the Holy Spirit (verse 35). | |
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Posted: 1/1/2008 1:01:58 PM | There are those who who assert that there is a higher value placed on children at birth than those who are developing in the womb. But Holy Scripture does not give us a precise value to be set on the human fetus at each stage of the fertilized egg up through viability, to birth, and a neatly categorized numerical value on each alternative evil with which we may be faced if one aborts the fetus at that stage. Rather, the Bible teaches that the fetus in the womb at any stage is valued as highly as any adult life. Where does the Bible teach this? Exodus 21:22-25 states,
“If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”
Distinguished Jewish exegete Umbert Cassuto interprets and translates Exodus 21:22-25 in his celebrated Commentary of the Book of Exodus:
“When men strive together and they hurt unintentionally a woman with child, and her children come forth but no mischief happens --- that is, the woman and the children do not die --- the one who hurt her shall surely be punished by a fine. But if any mischief happened, that is, the woman dies or the children die, then you shall give life for life.”
Keil and Delitzch in their Old Testament commentary on the book of Exodus explain that the passage demands exactly the same penalty for injuring the mother as the child.
The Hebrew is clear that if either the mother or fetus suffers minor harm, then a minor harm should be assessed; but, if further injury results to either mother or fetus, such as death, then the fine or punishment is equal to a life for a life and an eye for an eye. There is absolutely no ground to differentiate between the mother or the child in this context if we keep to the rights of language. | |
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Posted: 1/1/2008 5:30:45 PM | Its a choice many will face. You must live with what ever choice you make forever. But you do know its wrong as much as you know murder is wrong..You dont need a bible to make an excuse to do wrong. Hope no one has to make such decisions in life.
As far as LAW it should be illegal. as it was once. It only changes becuase the High Court changes. ~Jr_Senator~ | |
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Posted: 1/1/2008 6:01:54 PM |
The Hebrew is clear that if either the mother or fetus suffers minor harm, then a minor harm should be assessed; but, if further injury results to either mother or fetus, such as death, then the fine or punishment is equal to a life for a life and an eye for an eye. There is absolutely no ground to differentiate between the mother or the child in this context if we keep to the rights of language. In Jewish Law the child IS equal, once it is considered a child. But you are skipping over the question of when it is considered a child. The fetus was never considered a human in Jewish Law.
As I stated, prior to quickening, for all legal purposes, the woman is the same as a woman that is not pregnant. For example, there is no additional penalty for injuring a woman prior to this point, other, naturally, than the penalty for injury to the woman herself. | |
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Posted: 6/8/2008 10:15:06 AM | It was interesting to find this in your profiled but glad to see it there and to know that you are ministering to many even by your profile. God Bless you and I will pray and believe that it will bring forgivness and healing, and change many's hearts on the subject. And we allready know that His word will never return void.  | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 623 | |
| Abortion
Posted: 6/8/2008 8:33:35 PM | | I'm 100% pro-choice. I had admittedly thought the partial birth procedure was a bit disturbing when I learned about it, but still I couldn't stand with those who supported an all-out ban on that procedure either because there are too many "what if's". But in general, for regular term legal abortion, it has to be up to the biological parents. There are enough people in the world that we needn't mourn every single "potential" person that doesn't make it. Personally I wouldn't prefer my sig.other to have one done at this point in time -- if for example we were an unmarried couple and she got pregnant but didn't want it -- because at this age and stage I would perhaps be interested in keeping it if she had no interest. But politically I believe there's simply no way it can or should ever be outlawed. That's pure social regression, IMO. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/9/2008 6:58:19 PM | | i feel abortion is wrong myself, however i feel in certain times it is necesaary. for example i feel rape, too young such as 12, 9, 15, etc. because a woman's body isn't able to properly carry a child til late teens such as 18, 19, and early 20's. it can cause so much medical issues. plus if its a health hazarrad, such as if u have another child ur kidneys will fail and u will die and so will that child. i feel children are a blessing from God, however i feel that some times we must prevent the birth for reasons, like i meantioned above. You can blame Satan for having his way on those. that is my belief. however i feel the government has no right to say we can or cannot have abortions. next they'll try and say we can't sit in a chair a certain way. the government has no right in this issue. its a moral issue, and last i knew we are not suppose to have a religious government. so i personally dont support having an abortion unless there are extreme measures, but i dont think the government has a right to put a law on it. however i feel a law should be made for how far along u can be befpre it is illegal. i feel a 5 month pregnant lady should be forced to carry after that long. i feel after 8 weeks it should be illegal to abort. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:41:52 PM | msg 619
“If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury "
That depends on which translation you reference.
Exodus 21:22-25 (New American Standard Version) says miscarriage not birth prematurely.:
And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined
If biases bible scholars and translators can't decide on what god meant, how can we? | |
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