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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 9:41:45 AM |
If biases bible scholars and translators can't decide on what God meant, how can we? I'm not sure if we need to. The need is perceived only if we feel we need to legally impose our own views of the issue on others. But as it currently stands, no one is forced to have an abortion against their will. The rest is a difference in belief. Admittedly, very strongly held beliefs.
But one of the most important basis of American culture is respect for each other's religions. Once we start imposing one religion's beliefs on the rest of us, we're in in deep trouble.
I realize that those who are against abortion feel that it is being imposed upon them. But that's not so. Abstaining from having an abortion is still a choice.
I suggest that those who believe abortion is wrong continue to try and convince the rest of us that the soul does indeed enter the body at conception. This is the basis of the controversy, and as mentioned, is not the traditional belief.
Otherwise, please accept that we live in a multi-religious society. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 11:30:45 AM | | ya i feel the same...its her body her choice what happens or comes out of her body...if she doesn't want to be a mother then she shouldn't be forced to have it just because others feel its wrong...the ones who feel its wrong just need to back of and accept not every woman wants to pop out a kid n go through the months of he!! | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 11:35:40 AM | | if you have to make a decision about your own body, those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 12:10:38 PM | | For those that believe that abortion is your right, may God have mercy on your soul. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 630 | |
| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 12:28:26 PM | ^^ Thank you Father.  | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 12:31:52 PM | You're welcome.  | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 1:06:41 PM |
For those that believe that abortion is your right, may God have mercy on your soul. With all due respect for your religious beliefs, you need to understand that many non-Catholics do not believe that abortion is murder, and thus do not need God's mercy in this matter.
We understand that because you feel that the soul joins the body at conception, that we are dealing with a human being. And this would logically follow from the belief that this is when the soul enters the body. But most religions do not teach this, and even yours did not until relatively recently. So it is a controvertial belief, not at all obvious.
I would ask you not to be quite so condescending when dealing with people who believe differently than you do. Thanks. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 5:03:50 PM | No offence, to people for or against abortions. I am on the fence on what I feel, because in some circumstances, it is okay, and in others it is not.
Using it as a form of birth control....no that is so sick (and yes women do do this).
However, if a women becomes pregnant out of an act of violence....then yes it is okay. I know either way God will frown upon that person, for doing so...and that is fine. Because God should've never let her get pregnant from an act of violence anyways....
Or medical reasons....and yes there are medical reasons... | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 8:14:32 PM | Abortion is murder.
Life starts at conseption.
As responsible adults we need to be ready to take responsiblity for the consiquenses of our actions.
Sex is ment for reproduction, maybe we ought not to play around with reproduction or view it as a form of pleasure.
On the other hand go ahead enjoy your selves just be ready to nurture and love the new life that your fooling around may posibly create.
Abortion is murder. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 9:00:01 PM |
*-I left the post above in because I thought with this particularly hot button issue, it is always a good time to remind people of the rules of the Religion/Supernatural subforum which are located here and show how you can stay out of my hair and each other's faces while conducting a debate like adults. The above post serves as a prime example of what not to do.
One of the ways to do this is to refrain from flaming and trolling. Another is to refrain from making statements of exclusivity of truth or absolute truth as the poster above has done. So long as the rules are abided by, just like in regular society, all opinion are to be heard from and none are "more true" than others in the sense of faith based opinions. Facts are a different story and may be more or less well supported with evidence. Issues such as abortion however are driven by two factors: what is legal and what is believed.
Abortion may be believed to be murder by some, it is not considered murder by the courts. Human life may be believed to start at conception by some, but it is by no means an absolute fact. Some may believe sex is primarily or only for reproduction...this is a matter of opinion.
Carry on with the discussion, but if you are in any doubt about the rules, take a look at them first. And if you are in any doubt that they will be enforced, disabuse yourself of that right now. - TheMadFiddler -* | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/11/2008 10:01:26 PM | if she doesn't want to be a mother then she shouldn't be forced to have it just because others feel its wrong..
Is she doesn't want to be a mother she can use birth control or get her tubes tied rather then kill her baby
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/12/2008 3:14:55 AM |
bear45408:
I would ask you not to be quite so condescending when dealing with people who believe differently than you do. Thanks.
There is nothing condescending in my post. Thanks. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/12/2008 4:34:03 AM | "Is she doesn't want to be a mother she can use birth control or get her tubes tied rather then kill her baby"
well no sh!t sherlock thats something i didn't need to say unless ppl are really that stupid...i don't need to specify how i believe in it but since my post got picked at for something fine
i am only against it if its used for birth control...
i'm all for medical/rape reasons make sense and if its ur first abortion considering birth control isn't 100%
grezzz chill out ppl no one will ever agree on this...play nice for once | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/12/2008 7:51:55 AM | I personally dont beleive it is up to a man what a woman does. It is our lives, our bodies.....guys you should be taking a back seat for this one.
And it is not murder! | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/12/2008 8:19:41 AM | grezzz chill out ppl no one will ever agree on this...play nice for once
Methinks it's you who needs to chill out - I was only giving my thoughts on the matter and you come unglued
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/12/2008 8:25:06 AM | This is a complicated issue
There are legal, christian(and other religious) views, and cultural views also. But the fact is that women who do not want to bear a child (and it isn't exactly a walk in the park to be pregnant, give birth and raise or even give up a child) WILL find a way to terminate their pregnancies.. and young or poor women even more so. The alternatives to a safe medical abortion are extremely dangerous, many women all over the world die horrible painful deaths, often leaving their prior children without a mother to care for them. Who knows why any woman makes the choice to end a pregnancy? I'm sure there are as many reasons as there are women.. maybe she can not feed another child? Maybe the idea of giving up a child she has carried within her for 9 months is unbearable? Maybe her partner is abusive? Maybe she can see that a child, at this point in her life, would ruin any chances she might have to make a better life for herself. Maybe she made a mistake? Maybe the condom broke or her birth control failed (it
happens, my daughter was conceived while I was on the pill) There is no rational way to lump all women into any kind of moral category unless you have personally walked in her shoes.
Again.. women WILL find a way to terminate their pregnancies, the history of abortion is as old as the history of humankind... and I know that most men can not understand this by virtue of biology, but sometimes a pregnancy can feel like an invasion.. and it can be TERRIFYING. For some women it is a nightmare.. and yes, I know this goes against the concept of all women being nurturers, or having some magic maternal switch. This is not the truth.
It basically comes down to the idea that morality (however one defines it) can not be legislated... and people are going to have sex. NOTHING will ever stop that.. the drive is too strong.. and unwanted pregnancies will happen, either through irresponsibility or by accident. The only real solution is education and affordable birth control, and access to safe abortion as a last resort.
I hope for the day when every child is conceived as a wanted and cherished being.. and that those children are raised in such an atmosphere... our world has not reached that yet.. and I have found that most anti-abortion advocates have never experienced abuse or neglect, nor have a realistic conception of the experience of MOST OF THE WORLDS CHILDREN. Abject poverty is a reality for most of the world's people's... and the children have it the worst. Children are abused on a scale that would stun most of us who have grown up in middle class society.. yes, here in the west. Children are sold as sex slaves all over the world.. and YES, here in the west also. Hours old infants are found in dumpsters ALL THE TIME.. YES, here in North America.
I think I would be amenable to the ideas of anti-abortion people if I saw more of them adopting the children they want to protect... there are so many children who need homes.. so many children who need protection from abusive parents, or poverty. If children are really that important then it's time to put your money where your mouth is and adopt them, lobby for stronger laws against sexual predators and child abusers, and child pornography, work towards eliminating poverty and supporting quality sex education. I also have a real problem with those who support the death penalty but also support anti-abortion legislation.. that is ridiculous. If life is THAT sacred then it should go across the board.. there is no reason to say that one life is more valuable than another. Also.. killing in war should be protested against.. it's still killing... just because another lives in another country or doesn't share ones political or cultural values doesn't make them less valuable... a zygote or embryo isn't more valuable just because it has no opinions yet.. and even less so if it isn't developed to the point where it has any ability to even think yet.
Another point... until an embryo has the ability to survive on it's own it is still effectively a part of the woman's body.. and there is NO science that can replace that role.. we can put egg and sperm together... but the actual growth and nurturing comes from the woman.. I know this as I have lost a tooth from being pregnant.. my child needed calcium and my body took it from me.. women are not "incubators" in this sense... the actual stuff that a child is made out of comes directly from us and/or is created by our bodies. I highly doubt science will ever find an alternative to this.. it's far to symbiotic and biologically complicated.
It's sad that some women do not consult their partners in this choice... and I feel for the men who have been left out, or have felt powerless in this regard. That isn't really a reflection of abortion though. It's a reflection of the maturity level and state of the relationship itself.
Some men do not deserve to be consulted.. abusers and such... but the fact is that it is the woman who has to actually go through the experience.. it is her body which changes and is taken over by the embryo. It is her risk.. and yes, pregnancy and childbirth carry risks to health and even to life itself. You can't walk away from a pregnancy.. it's with you 24 hours a day. This is a difference in how men and women experience it.
So I remain a supporter of choice, only because I refuse to judge another's decision, or impose my personal morality on someone else. I don't believe every woman who makes this choice is doing it for the "right" reasons.. and that is sad, but that does not take away from the fact that it is needed by a whole lot more. I wouldn't want any woman to die from sepsis or hemorrhage because legal abortion is unavailable, nor would I want to see a child brought into the world that wasn't wanted.
Until people can be more responsible.. I have no other choice but to continue supporting education and fight against poverty and child neglect and abuse.
peace | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/12/2008 12:30:34 PM | I think the position that is too often taken that abortion is a female matter and men should butt out is at best flawed and at worst gender based prejudice. Do you think you had to be a slave owner to properly understand the issue of slavery back when that debate was raging? I fully appreciate that a woman, especially one who has been pregnant, probably has a better general perspective on what all is involved in being pregnant on a personal level, but that does not disqualify men from providing input. There is nothing intrinsic to one gender or the other that makes one or the other more or less able to voice an opinion on the matter.
There is also a tendency to talk only about eggs and sperm and embryos as if that which is growing in a woman's womb stays in that state until nine months later and suddenly transforms in a matter or hours into a baby immediately prior to birth. So, I would ask for some honesty and for those who support the right to abortion to say when they believe this egg/sperm/embryo transitions to being a "baby". I'm not interested in what someone else thinks, or quotes from others. I'm interested in what you think, where you draw the line (if you draw any line at all). Not for others. Not to judge others. Not even to support the claim that "abortion is murder". But to show that you've actually thought this through to its logical conclusion.
FYI: In Canada it is not illegal to abort immediately before birth. I would think it is impossible to get a doctor to perform such an abortion, but it's not illegal to ask for or perform an abortion at this stage. Only full and complete exit form the womb with independent breathing confers the rights and protections of personhood on whatever you want to call whatever it was that just exited that womb. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/12/2008 1:28:36 PM |
So, I would ask for some honesty and for those who support the right to abortion to say when they believe this egg/sperm/embryo transitions to being a "baby". I'm not interested in what someone else thinks, or quotes from others. I'm interested in what you think, where you draw the line (if you draw any line at all). I think this is a reasonable request. I personally do not believe that a fertilized egg is a human being any more than I would grant that status to a separate egg and sperm. I feel that somewhere prior to birth, the baby is capable of sustaining itself, and can think, and so it seem to me that qualifies it as human. Where to draw the line? I think one ought to be conservative on this issue, so I tend to draw the line at the traditional Jewish point, quickening, or when one can first feel the baby's movements. This roughly corresponds to the first trimester.
In the case of rape, or serious fetal or maternal medical issues, I feel these have to be taken into account. One hopes that these can be taken into consideration early enough not to make the decision needlessly difficult. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/12/2008 2:21:43 PM | Drillher has written the most sensible post on this page. She has hit the nail on the head on this one. Using abortions as birth control is beyond disgusting! Use the Pill, already! But we must consider the rape, incest or child molestation victim. For that reason I advocate the ready availability of emergency contraception for these circumstances.
I don't know what to believe as far as when the "soul" arrives during a pregnancy. I'll leave that to the theologians to duke it out! From a scientific point of view, I would say that people with a medical background are better qualified than I would be to determine if it is "too late" to have an abortion. I do feel that there comes a point when it is too late in the pregnancy, but I don't feel qualified to make such a judgement call. Nor do I think politicians have any place in this matter. It should be decided upon by people with a medical background. | |
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| Heather Marie
Posted: 6/12/2008 3:21:53 PM | This poem was written in hopes that it may be of help to other women who may have gone through something similar. Jesus was truely my healer of my broken heart and He will be for you too, if you allow Him to. We can seek His forgiveness and forgive all those who have wronged us as well. He will and does forgive us.
Heather Marie
To my unborn baby, who was taken from me,
I use to dream of haveing a child, someone to love, someone to hold,
But they took you from me, before you were very old.
I had you're name all picked out, and could hardly wait;
But what was soon to happen, I didn't anticipate.
No place to run, no place to hide, I tried to make them listen to me
But it was like I wan't even theyr'e , they wouldn't listen to my plea.
I tried to protect you; I woke up too soon but it was too late!
It was all done against my will, but Iv'e learned to forgive and not hate.
One day, my sweet little Heather Marie, we will all be together, and we will
be a real family, you, your sisters, and me.!
By: Suzette Ballagh
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| Heather Marie
Posted: 6/12/2008 4:19:27 PM |
It was all done against my will If it's not too painful, perhaps you could fill us in as to how you came to have an abortion against your will. In any case, you have our sympathy and support. I don't think any of us believe in abortion against the will of the mother. | |
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| Heather Marie , Abotion Against My Will
Posted: 6/12/2008 7:00:16 PM | I was 18 years old in 1973, and very much in love and engaged to be married, my parents would not give us they're approval for marraige. They were against my decision because my boyfriend had been in Viet Nam, and told me that he probebly would have emotional problems. So we made a decision to get pregnant hopeing they would then give us they're blessing. Instead they came to pick me up from Cosmotology school and just said that they would like me to come home for the weekend. Once I go home I was informed I could not contact my fiance and could have no contact with him. I overheard my mom makeing calls to New York to arrange for an abortion and called my Uncle to obtain the cash quickly. I can't relay to you every detail because things were so traumatic that much of the events were taken from my memory. I believe it was either on a Friday or Saterday, that my parents were leaving to get grocerys and wanted me to go , but I told them that I didn't feel like it. My plan was to call friends and have them pick me up so I could get away from my parents. I forgot to mention that they had taken my keys away from me to my car and even forged my signiture and transfered ownership of my car into they're name. I called everyone I knew but no one was at home, including my boy-friend. So I decided to run to town and thought I should have time to get away before they would return. I was about 1/2 mile down the road when I saw my dads truck headed in my direction. He ordered me to get in but I just kept running He followed me down the road and jumped out of the truck and caught me and put me in. I told them over and over that I would not have the abortion and that they couldn't make me because I was legal age. But they would not listen to anything I had to say . I told them over and over that I wanted the baby that we had planned getting pregnant and I even had picked her name out. All I remember after this is them diriveing to the airport in Waterloo Ia. Boarding the plane, and arriveing at the airport in New York, Praying and hopeing that the people at the clinic would listen to me and I had to believe that if I showed them proof of I.D. that they would have to honor my decision.
When we got to the clinic, and sitting in the reception room, there were many women and girls in all stages of pregnacy; the one women I will never forget looked like she could go into labor any day, she had to please close to 9 months. When they called my name and we went into the office I remember to saying to myself, good now once I tell them my story and show them my Drivers License I should be going home. The woman who was in the office just looked at me and said, oh, just relax honey, everything is going to be ok, a lot of young girls get in trouble like you but it will all be take care of and over in a little bit. I could't believe what I was hearing and I said didn't you hear anything I have told you and what about my decision as an adult. So again I tried to run but was caught as I was trying to get out the office door and held down as they administered an anesetic. I remeber praying got don't allow me to sleep but wake me up in a few minutes before anything happens. Next thing I remember is wakeing up, and hearing nursed screaming, oh my God, now what do we do , she's awake, this is impossible , how much anesetic did you administer, are you sure it was the right dosage. I was trying to sit up and they were pushing me back down on the table telling me to go back to sleep I told them I needed to use the restroom, they must have been so confused they didn't know what to do with me or how to react. They simply told me know you don't it is all in your mind. I fineally got enough strength to push my way up and enough strength not to allow them to push me back down again. What I saw is probebly what they didn't want me to see. Where I laid , from my feet to my head was blood. The nurse kept tryiny to hold me back, two of them but groggy and weak I made to my feet pushing against them. As I went out the door to find the restroom, right outside the door was a trash can, and though I wanted to look in because I just knew my baby was in that can I couldn't bring myself to. They said that I couldn't possibly be haveing an urge to urinate because of the ansetic. Nurses still frantic as well as the rest of the staff following me and tugging at me trying to drag me back to the room.
Today , right at this moment after telling my story to the world, I realize why I had to do what they said was impossible, so I could tell this story to you. You see to them at least many of them it isn't really about helping you because you have gotton in trouble as, they told me, but it is a matter of anouther notch in thery're belt and all the money that they can make.
Every year after my abortion I would go into terrible depression around the same time of the year and as the years went on I didn't even always know what the depression was from. In 1984 I found Jesus, or should I say that He found me, and since that time the depression has gone away for good. And I look forward to the day that I will be reunited with my baby, but I have a lot to do here first. I have forgiven all those involved in this injustuce, and feel completely free from that day. And I am telling you this story to let you know that He can set you free too.
God bless all who will read my story. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 648 | |
| Heather Marie , Abotion Against My Will
Posted: 6/12/2008 7:29:38 PM | Msg 643 asked when we feel the egg/sperm/embryo transitions into being a baby. IMO it is basically in line with the current legal definition; which would be at birth. Prior to that it's in utero, so it would still qualify as a fetus, IMO. After it's born and living on its own, then we have a baby. I agree with those who feel the "partial birth" (so called) sounds like a grisly procedure indeed and I don't know for what exact purpose they use those. But if there is even one medical reason (ie, for the health of the mother for example) then I'm all for its remaining perfectly legal. If it's a form of birth control, obviously it's grotesque. Have they not heard of adoption? As for the (probably much more common) regular term abortions, as I said politically I'm all for them. Personally, if I got someone pregnant and she did not want any part of the baby, then at this point in my life I might try to convince her to keep it and myself / my family would keep it, because I wouldn't mind having one I think. But it would still have to be her choice.
There are enough people in the world , IMO, than for me to have to go around worrying that women are getting abortions as we speak (or type) everyday. Not all copulation leads to a fertilized egg, not all fertilizations take, not all embryos make it, period. For whatever reasons. This is nature's way. Even infants die occasionally (SIDS and what have you). Regrettable and saddening (because they are of course quite cute and lovable once they're born) but what can we do about it? We are only another species of animal , at the end of the day, and this happens all throughout the animal kingdom. Some animals , "lower" ones, kill their own young. I suppose to some extent something like the partial birth, or even regular abortions for that matter, can be taken to perhaps be the human animal's parallel sort of behaviour. | |
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| Heather Marie , Abotion Against My Will
Posted: 6/12/2008 11:50:52 PM | It's not our job to regulate what a woman does with her body. It is her dilemma. If you fell she will have to answer to god for her actions, then allow that belief to console your anger towards those who get abortions.
At the end of the day, it's none of your business what choice another woman makes.
I, for one, realize that illegalizing something doesn't make it go away. It only makes the practice more dangerous. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 6/13/2008 8:42:59 AM |
It's not our job to regulate what a woman does with her body Whether it's "our job" or not, various societies and organization regulate what we do with out bodies on a regular basis, and most of that regulating is acceptable to most of those being regulated. For example, my society applies a variety of laws designed to regulate what I do with my body in public (I cannot urinate when the urge strikes me), in a car (I have to protect my body with a seat belt whether I want to or not), how much alcohol the regulators deem is a fit amount before I cannot drive my regulated body wherever I want, what drugs I can put in my body, and so on. Thus the notion that "no law can be created that regulates what I do with my body" is false.
illegalizing something doesn't make it go away. It only makes the practice more dangerous. An assumption without proof. The basis argument is that without legal, safe abortion access women will utilise unsafe abortionists and suffer a variety of harms and illnesses because women previously did so with this result. However, it fails to assess how many women were injured by botched abortions. Rather there is an emotional appeal that proclaims that ALL previous abortions were harmful and ALL current abortions are not. How many are injured now by legally accessible abortions? In this thread we have one example of a woman seriously harmed (physically, psychologically, and emotionally) by a legally accessed abortion. Further, the threat that people will harm themselves without access to non-harmful means of meeting their needs is without merit. Presumably free or legal cocaine, ecstasy, marijuana, heroin, etc. would cause all the social and criminal ills associated with these illegal drugs to cease, and yet I don't hear others proclaim this obvious result in this area. | |
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