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Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > Abortion [CLOSED - Run Its Course - Circular Discussion]      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Singular_Intellect
Joined: 7/21/2008
Msg: 826
AbortionPage 34 of 35    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35)


Speakin' for your self and your own ancestry I think.


Actually, he's 100% correct. Humans are indeed a branch of the ape family.

You'd have better luck trying to say we're not mammals or biped.
 dysfunction_junction
Joined: 7/17/2008
Msg: 827
Abortion
Posted: 7/25/2008 3:39:34 PM

sperms and eggs are living

bzzzzt! wrong
they are merely genetic material with half of what they need to produce something that IS living
 Liana K
Joined: 6/13/2008
Msg: 828
Abortion
Posted: 7/25/2008 5:26:48 PM
Children really are the most beautiful things in the world. A 'higher power' didn't offer me two choices on whether I wanted to become a parent in life or not, but I was given Door #1 and I remained childless.

I don't believe that this all causes me to believe that abortion is wrong. It doesn't mean that I think it is illegal, immoral, unethical or murderous because I wasn't able to enjoy my own children. I accept and embrace what life has given me. I love the company of children. They continually amaze me with their brilliant little minds that are full of salesmanship abilities.

I remain against abortion as a form of repeated birth control, but that is where it ends.

There would be absolutely no way on this planet where someone other than myself, especially a stranger?? .. will have ever made it their business to tell me how to proceed with my body, my life, my emotions inside of MY head .... not your's ... and my future. The people who are so against abortion should be going and paying everyone's else's bills in life before they think they can entertain the ridiculous fantasy of literally running another human being's life.

Yes, I am exceptionally spiritual and, as a child, was raised a strong Catholic. What does that have to do with anything?

Every microscopic bit of my very being BELONGS to me ... our bodies are really the only things in life that we can say we have that is our's; it is my beautifully spiritual temple to do with as I choose whether I remain pregnant and have a child, bodybuild, run marathons, abuse it with alcohol and drugs, overeat, climb mountains, sit on the sofa all evening with a pop and a huge bag of chocolate.. or decide to proceed with abortion... and not to some self righteous hypocrite who has the moral responsibility to promptly address and work on their own personal shortcomings in life instead of expending so much energy in the attempt to control others lives. Maybe this energy might be better utilized on determining and creating a plan on how we can feed the steadily growing population of hungry children that are not only on another continent, but across the backlane from your home.

I've heard every argument and it simply doesn't wash. I don't care what the argument is on my body. It is none of my business what you think I should do with my body, but you try to make it my business. Everyone has their opinions and beliefs, but I won't be one of those people who thrive on the control they exert on a woman's decision to abort instead of concentrating on the many issues we have worldwide in terms of saving the lives of children whose lives are already in danger. Mental/physical/sexual abuse, drug and alcohol addictions, sexual promiscuity, child prostitutes, hunger .... on and on. Do you think any one of these might need your time? Or .... maybe your own household needs help? Hits too close to home for some ....

Last time I checked ? .. I was paying the bills and putting the food on my table. What resources are you offering me when I make the decision based on what you want for my life? Don't confuse my freedom of choice in life for determining it as something you have the right to enter.

God help the women who are faced with this additional craziness as they are emotionally distraught enough without having to contend with the outside influences.

IMO>only.
 Cleopatracutie
Joined: 9/15/2005
Msg: 829
view profile
History
Abortion
Posted: 7/25/2008 7:46:53 PM
Hey "Dawg".
Does the bible not say we are made in gods image?
For the sake of arguement would the rapist hold the mothers hand during the production of another's life?
What kind of life would be produced for that matter? Ever hear a story of the life of the unwanted? People like charles manson are the "byproduct" of being unwanted.

I think god would feel pretty low if he made a charles manson just as a mother would that is being if she cared and what her personal life was made of, even a high society princess can make a life miserable if she doesn't want to be responsable for that child yet has it foisted upon her anyway. If she chooses to keep the child or give them to adoption great. It is HER choice. I think god (if he exsists) would like to have the choice. I am not saying it would all end bad because a woman was raped and a child resulted because of it I do believe however in the physcological point of veiw and its impact. Miserable situations and abusive ones can be a huge "byproduct" out of such situations and sorry bro that really, really shouldn't be shook off and any woman has the right and the choice in this day and age and others just kinda need to get over that fact and you know......deal with it! :)
 kittenshere41
Joined: 4/16/2008
Msg: 830
Abortion
Posted: 7/26/2008 5:38:46 AM
no one has the right to kill another. it is murder. god siad thou shall not commit murder. end of story. if a woamn is preg and does nto wnat child there is adoption. although personally I cannot understand any woman not wnating her own child. take all kinds i guess. choose adoption not murder.
 altruist80
Joined: 10/13/2006
Msg: 831
Abortion
Posted: 7/26/2008 6:51:13 AM
Once again, a summary of points previously addressed.
___________________________________________________________
JUSTIFICATION argument:

- Presumes abortion to be murder based on LIFE argument. Don't skip over this part. BASED ON THE LIFE ARGUMENT as addressed in summary below.

- Killing an innocent is not justified by hardship. THEY WILL LOCK YOU UP for killing a person due to hardship. THEY WILL LOCK YOU UP for killing a bad person. They will LOCK YOU UP for anything but self-defense from an IMMEDIATE life-threatening danger. Big one here which no one has refuted.

- DEATH IS NOT HUMANE. Death is perceived by virtually every living creature as something to be strictly avoided at all costs!!!!!!!!! FOR GOD'S SAKE, how is death humane???? How much reasoning is needed to prove that death is not a sick kind of mercy? You can only support death as humane if you are a suicide case. Since you are arguing, I will assume you are alive and hence discredited in this sense.

- Illegal abortion will increase... So if proven to be murder, why not extend the same leniency and accomodation to all murderers? Should murder be legalized because it is inevitable? Give all murderers needles and sterile tools to make it safer?
____________________________________________________________
LIFE argument:

- Most abortions are performed on fetuses with a very minimal of heartbeat and circulatory function (majority range). Sentience (YES, SENTIENCE... PROVEN) emerges at 8-10 weeks (well within a large termination range).

- Belief does not change facts of life and death. If completely IGNORING the first set of facts, it still remians that there is no societal consensus on the LIFE argument. It defaults to UNKNOWN.

-Based on the unknown:

Removal of the fetus is reckless and unreasonable. "Reason requires that you accept a constraint on your liberty because reason requires that you accept a policy to protect the innocent from unjust harm."

Russian roulette. How do we know if death results?

The only conclusion which does not result in a NULL-JUSTIFICATION possibility for any outcome is that abortion MUST BE ASSUMED to cause the death of human life. This is to err on the side of caution, and it really isn't even a major leap considering all of the affirmative evidence. If it were clearly and irrefutably just a blob, the debate would not rage as it does. TELL ME, is there any SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE action that MAY or MAY NOT kill people?
___________________________________________________________
The LIFE argument is pretty solid. Most abortionists avoid this one and try to focus on the JUSTIFICATION argument by appealing to women's rights.

- Pigeonholing abortion into a women's rights issue ignores the fetus entirely.

- CHOICE is paradoxical because it requires removing CHOICE from the fetus.

- Again, what TRULY justifies murder??????????????

You MUST derail these arguments or you can simply join the masses of those who came to an ill-conceived conclusion about abortion. I have yet to have anyone tell me why any of these arguments are false.
 2sirwithlove
Joined: 4/22/2008
Msg: 832
Abortion
Posted: 7/26/2008 9:49:22 AM

Pigeonholing abortion into a women's rights issue ignores the fetus entirely.

I wonder if this can be still said of those many fetus's that have been born babies that later grow into children and abandoned.

Brittany Spears has two children, and I believe another one on the way. I believe these children would be better off being terminated. They are not being cared for by their mother. This is because sometimes, women are simply not ready to start a family, or they think it would be fun to have a child. Sometimes teenage girls go against parental advice, as they do, and decide to have sex, and ultimitely, become pregnant. Sometimes grown women do these things too.

Maybe rape is involved? The young girl or even woman is hurting enough because of the rape. Why would anyone who claims to be a Christian, which means, love for all and compassion for all, want to constantly remind a woman or young woman of a horrifying experience in her life, such as rape. The implications can be massive if this woman delivers a child that is clearly not a gift from God, but infact the doom from the devil.

I do not have children, but if I was to fall pregnant, I am at an age that I could handle the pressures of raising a child in this modern world. A teenage girl is not.


CHOICE is paradoxical because it requires removing CHOICE from the fetus.

A fetus has no choice. It has no decission making abilities. Why is it in some countries around the world, a human being cannot have a say in things until they reach the minimum age of 18, yet a fetus can have a decission?

This is rediculous. A fetus cannot survive without its mother. A human being can. Once a child is born, it breathes on its own, it can eat, do normal things that human beings do. But a fetus cannot. A fetus does not count. A fetus is not a person.

While I do not agree that abortion is a safe thing to do for the "getting rid of the problem" in some cases, it is necessary. If a fetus is deformed, how is that baby/child/adult going to live in society that we all know? That is more cruel and more inhumane than having a pregnancy terminated, in my opinion. If the fetus is causing body stress of an abnormal manner to the mother, it should be terminated.

When a woman is being raped, do you really think or are so naiive that a rapist is going to pause for a moment to put a condom on? Pregnancy can occur and I for one, if I was raped, or had a daughter who was raped, would not be delivering any baby.
 kittenshere41
Joined: 4/16/2008
Msg: 833
Abortion
Posted: 7/26/2008 10:02:44 AM
If I was raped and preg by that rape I would have the child simply becuase its part of me and i dont believe in murder. Not the babies fault. not my fault but women need to deal with the stones threw at them in life. Killing the unborn child is unacceptable behavior in my eyes. its cruel and uncalled for. there are so many people who want babies and cant have them......adoption is the only right answer. killing it of course is antoher answer but the wrong answer.

Just my opinion on situation. hope no one is offended.
 bear45408
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 834
Abortion
Posted: 7/26/2008 10:22:11 AM

no one has the right to kill another. it is murder. god siad thou shall not commit murder. end of story. if a woamn is preg and does nto wnat child there is adoption. although personally I cannot understand any woman not wnating her own child. take all kinds i guess. choose adoption not murder.
Despite having the question of whether we are dealing with a human or not, here we are, back to cries of murder. I suggest, kittenshere41, that you actually read some of the preceeding posts, particularly those concerning the fact that the belief that human life begins at conception is a relatively recent phenomenon.

The simple fact is that if we are not dealing with a human being, it is not murder. We kill things every day that are not human and are not bothered. Saying it is murder does not make it so!

I think your suggestion concerning adoption as a choice is a good one, but the approach ought to be to advocate this approach rather than try to impose it upon others. Your statement that "I cannot understand any woman not wnating(sic) her own child", I think is revealing. There are a multitude of reasons why this might be so. You might try a little harder to see the other side.

I guess I don't see where arguments like kittenshere41's advance the cause of pro-lifers. Anyone care to explain?
 allegiant_one
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 835
Abortion
Posted: 7/26/2008 8:46:15 PM

This is rediculous. A fetus cannot survive without its mother. A human being can. Once a child is born, it breathes on its own, it can eat, do normal things that human beings do. But a fetus cannot. A fetus does not count. A fetus is not a person.


The zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, baby, toddler, adolescent, adult, senior adult are ALL “Stages-of-Development” of Human Beings that Logically deserve the status as a Human Being and protection by Law.

When Doctors perform surgery on the FETUS while yet in the womb, does that effect it’s Personhood? When they remove the FETUS...perform the surgery...then put it back in...Does it become a "person", then revert back to being a "non-person" again? What are the Doctors operating on? A WATERMELON ???

I'd like to see an infant survive on its own and do the "normal" things that human beings do. Is it not "normal" for the Fetus (and the infant) to rely on the mother for survival?
 Liana K
Joined: 6/13/2008
Msg: 836
Abortion
Posted: 7/26/2008 8:49:38 PM
altruist80 posts:*** - Again, what TRULY justifies murder??????????????

You MUST derail these arguments or you can simply join the masses of those who came to an ill-conceived conclusion about abortion. I have yet to have anyone tell me why any of these arguments are false.***


Being an individual who comprises a small percentage of the masses who have formed ill conceived conclusions about abortion, in your descript, I will step up to the plate and tell you why they are false. To this day, the courts in North America have not recognized or implemented any laws re abortion in terms of it being murder. Any varied argument on your end, no matter how you present it, falls rather short on validity due to the laws that are (or are not?) in place today ... and I don't need a 4.0 to substantiate or to present extensive argumentative as well as simple opinionated documentation thusfar to support my post.

The day it becomes law that abortion is constituted and recognized as murder, and as a result women are being prosecuted for it via the legal system, is the day that your argument that you state and further deem as true, and not as opinion, will hold water.

Who am I to argue with the law? There is a tremendous spectrum of religious, philosophical, scientific, and medical opinion. It's been argued for centuries. If you feel that your argument based on a 4.0 is what you require to substantiate opinions yet to be written in stone by the courts, more power to you. An opinion is like an a$$hole ....... we all have one. The law ... is the law. I, can at least, admit that I am not intelligent enough to argue with the legal system and will not state opinions that I may outright label as 'true' ..... even when I know it does not meet with the written law of the courts .. thereby, being false.

And here I thought I was the one who fell off the back of the turnip truck yesterday. Incidentally, I don't require a 4.0 to designate any forum post as 'true' or 'false' as it pertains to the law.

 kittenshere41
Joined: 4/16/2008
Msg: 837
Abortion
Posted: 7/27/2008 4:47:29 AM
its common sense that abortion is murder of baby. dont need law to define murder for me. just becuase the law allows it dont make it right. The law does lots of things that aint right. As far as post one where she speaks of God accepting murder of baby well i disagree. God gave u child for a reason no matter how it came about. he let u get pregnant for a reason and i dont bleive it was to abort it. but to say he accepts it i dont agree. thou shall not commit murder is in the bible and whether a person belives it or not abortion is murder of unborn child. And i dont see the lord saying, "oh its ok to murder the child I give you". no matter how the pregnancy came about. course i could be worng but that is my opinion.
 bear45408
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 838
Abortion
Posted: 7/27/2008 7:06:18 AM

its common sense that abortion is murder of baby. dont need law to define murder for me.
Apparently not. You're quite willing to define it to suit yourself, not necessarily in line with anything justified. But lets look at your definition a bit deeper.
As I've mentioned before on this thread, the question it being murder clearly depends on whether or not what we're talking about is a human being. The belief that a fetus becomes a human being from the moment of conception is rather recent, dating from the late ninteenth century.

I apologize for repeating from an earlier post on this thread, but is seems apparent that is was unnoticed:
My own position, which ought to be taken as simply my opinion, is the same as traditional Jewish law and the position that the Church had until the late nineteenth century. Most people today are not aware that the current view that life begins at conception was not common earlier.


In the late nineteenth century, following the discovery of fertilization, the debate about abortion within the church tipped in favor of its now familiar position that human life begins at conception. This view was enhanced by the theological acceptance of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. In 1701 Pope Clement XI declared the Immaculate Conception a feast of universal obligation, and in 1854 Pius IX incorporated into Catholic dogma the teaching that Mary was without sin for the moment of her conception (Tribe 1990). These beliefs did not coincide with the prior view that the fetus did not acquire a soul until later in pregnancy, so the church had to unite its doctrine so that the act of conception coincided with the beginning of human life.

from http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162 "When Does Human Life Begin?"

If you wish not to have an abortion yourself on the grounds of your belief, I certainly respect that. I respect other beliefs. Also if you with to advocate for women continuing their pregnancies as their choice, I can certainly see that.

My personal position is the traditional one, that the fetus becomes human at quickening, sentience, or roughly the first tri-mester. Prior to this it is no more human than the separate sperm and egg.

Your cries of murder depend on a definition of timing, which came about to resolve a church dispute. Hardly the high moral ground that one might want for these sorts of things.
 kittenshere41
Joined: 4/16/2008
Msg: 839
Abortion
Posted: 7/27/2008 7:15:46 AM
Prior to this it is no more human than the separate sperm and egg......

This is where u and I differ. I do not blieve the upper statement. I guess thats why our views differ. we each have our own beliefs. the upper statement is yours and I have mine. no need for more argument. if the op is preg or knows someone that is well its their choice what to do about it. we each gave our opinion on how we feel about abortion which is why this thread was posted. she wanted our views. she got them.
 altruist80
Joined: 10/13/2006
Msg: 840
Abortion
Posted: 7/27/2008 10:18:54 AM
And here I thought I was the one who fell off the back of the turnip truck yesterday. Incidentally, I don't require a 4.0 to designate any forum post as 'true' or 'false' as it pertains to the law.


I do not consider myself to be any better than you. I do not think effort, intelligence, insight, education, money, prestige, or ability to argue determines a person's worth. I truly feel that the best measure of a person's worth is their compassion for others, and yes, this compassion should absolutely extend to women who become pregnant unintentionally. That does not change my position.


Who am I to argue with the law?


How very legalistic of you. Law is no substitute for reason. Ask the European Jews about the power of deranged public policy. The world has not forgotten the flawed capabilities of human intellect and rationalization, especially en masse. I mean, you do know that attrocities are not always brought about by hate but often by flawed reasoning right? The same brand of "reasoning" that often takes place in the courts IMO.

Maybe after you read this link you might gain an inkling of insight as to why laws are often flawed. Fetuses who survived abortion were unprotected until 2002. The babies were simply left to die in bio-storage. These people were not prosecuted.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/19/144714.shtml

Did any of you know this was happening? This is one of the many reasons abortion must be stopped. People are idiots who do not know where to draw ethical lines. I say that without prejudice and with all conviction.

I will also note that since we are discussing law that roughly half of the states consider the murder of a pregnant woman to be a double-homicide. So... who am I to argue with the legal system? Evidently, possessing less duality than your "law" qualifies me to argue.


My personal position is the traditional one, that the fetus becomes human at quickening, sentience, or roughly the first tri-mester. Prior to this it is no more human than the separate sperm and egg.


Bear, you did read my citation on termination ranges right? One marker the CDC uses is [less than] 8 weeks. This is extremely close to the sentience marker (sence of touch), and we aren't even really sure if other sentience functions develop before this. Touch SEEMS to be the first to emerge, but who knows?


Your cries of murder depend on a definition of timing, which came about to resolve a church dispute. Hardly the high moral ground that one might want for these sorts of things.


Stepping away from reason and into religious interpretation for a moment, I can sort of agree with you in this sense because division among religious sects is evident on many issues. I did some digging and discovered (correct me if I am wrong)that many Jews are divided on this issue because of the lack of clear provision for it in your (and our) texts. Not so much ours because of Jesus's millstone statement. But from an agreement on the Old Testament (as we call it) could this issue be something God left as self-evident? In other words, maybe He chose to let us work this one out using the capacity of intellect and reason that He endowed us with.

So let me ask you, friend, do you truly, in your heart believe that the great I AM would condone the way man has handled this issue? Do you truly think that the Almighty God would say "no biggie" to millions of worldwide abortions per year? I can only speculate on what God may have told Moses had he inquired of this. I mean you do believe that God put the child in the womb right? I mean, He has admitted to doing this many times throughout your texts. You may in fact believe abortion should be a choice, but surely some logical deduction on your part can show you some incongruencies in your personally-applied belief... maybe? Should we trifle with the thin line of ensoulment? As a man of faith, I know that you must have asked yourself these questions. I therefore do not understand how you came to such a conclusion.
 Liana K
Joined: 6/13/2008
Msg: 841
Abortion
Posted: 7/27/2008 11:07:35 AM
altruist80: ***How very legalistic of you ..... I truly feel that the best measure of a person's worth is their compassion for others ***

......... then, in another statement, ***This is one of the many reasons abortion must be stopped. People are idiots who do not know where to draw ethical lines.***


Well, I must say that those are very interesting statements from an individual whose profile text states the following as well as refers to himself as a Christian and brings up God more than once:

"I can't see myself being with someone who is spiteful or judgemental."


Tsk, tsk. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. We all know that Christians abide by their moral responsibilities in life which, incidentally, does not allow the judgement of others. I wonder what God thinks now?

This will be my last post for the above reasons. Point made for the sake of the forum argument.
 bear45408
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 842
Abortion
Posted: 7/27/2008 12:04:28 PM

Fetuses who survived abortion were unprotected until 2002. ... This is one of the many reasons abortion must be stopped.
This does not follow logically. The fetuses who survived abortion were way further along in development than any that I'm speaking of. As it happens, I am in agreement that the fetus is human at this point. However, to extend this to say that "Therefore all abortions must be stopped", is not reasonable until you have established that the particular fetus in question is human.

You are correct that some Jews now take the same view as many Christians that human life begins at conception. One of the very nice things about Judaism is that one is free to have varying opinions, and we tend to do so. The old joke is "Two Jews, Three opinions!" I don't think that's such a bad thing.

Nevertheless, the traditional and majority view of both the Jews and formerly of the Church was that the fetus becomes human at sentience or quickening.


So let me ask you, friend, do you truly, in your heart believe that the great I AM would condone the way man has handled this issue? Do you truly think that the Almighty God would say "no biggie" to millions of worldwide abortions per year?
Again, you are assuming that God has the same definition as you do. I've carefully explained that the belief that human life begins at conception comes not from God, but from a change in the Catholic Church's position in the late nineenth century, which came about in order to be consistent with it's earlier Immaculate Conception of Mary position. I don't know what God's position on the matter is, but I assume that God frowns on us taking human life, and expects us to try to be fairly clear on what is and what is not human life. As always, in difficult legal situations, Jewish law takes nuances into consideration. For example, it clearly is OK to break the Sabbath to save a life, etc. In fact it is mandatory.

For the record, I certainly do not think that God is saying "no biggie" to millions of abortions. If you think that, please tell me what you imagine God thinks about the 1/3 of pregnancies that spontaneously abort. Surely a hugely greater number that that of induced abortions. Easily in the billions. Do you believe these have souls and are human beings?


Should we trifle with the thin line of ensoulment? As a man of faith, I know that you must have asked yourself these questions. I therefore do not understand how you came to such a conclusion.
It is not at all a thin line, when we are talking questions of determining whether murder is being committed or not. The burden of proof in the case of murder is, in fact, on the accusers, and is clearly spelled out in scripture. However we may view early abortion, it falls far short of the biblical requirements to sustain a charge of murder. Please read scripture yourself if you have doubts.
 altruist80
Joined: 10/13/2006
Msg: 843
Abortion
Posted: 7/27/2008 11:21:21 PM

Well, I must say that those are very interesting statements from an individual whose profile text states the following as well as refers to himself as a Christian and brings up God more than once: "I can't see myself being with someone who is spiteful or judgemental."


First off, this is ad hominem. You are trying to discredit my argument by attacking my personal ideology, which is a clear and very popular logical fallacy. I do not even have to refute because countless philosophers have already nullified your argument.

Secondly, I use words such as "ignorance, wrong, murder, and idiots." I can see how you would find this inconsistent. To judge means to pass sentence, which I have not done. If having a "judge not lest ye be judged" attitude means I should refrain from debating an issue or pointing out the obvious, we should all step down, yourself included. If the sky is blue, do I JUDGE it to be blue? If society consistently displays inadequacy, am I "judgemental" for declaring it inadequate? If a man steals, am I "judgemental" for declaring him a thief? What constitutes being "judgemental" is another argument entirely. I do believe most people (despite moral inadequacies en masse) have the common sense to understand what constitutes being judgemental. For instance "Don't talk to her. She's a whore." is judgemental in IMO because it makes a conclusion about someone and consequently passes sentence.

I do not retract the "idiots" remark entirely, but I do define it to mean that people are imperfect in matters of morality and reasoning. I don't care if you view this as inconsistant. Countless wars and attrocities happen with rationalization leading the attack which is more than enough to show that people in their present stage of evolution are inadequate at coming to sound conclusions or else often take action in the absence of a conclusion. I wonder what the current death toll is because of flawed reasoning. This is idiocy at its finest.

My whole point is to say that humans should recognise their limitations. The fact that they do not shows that they are unwise.

"You take a mortal man, and put him in control. Watch him become a god. Watch people's heads 'a' roll." - Megadeath


For the record, I certainly do not think that God is saying "no biggie" to millions of abortions. If you think that, please tell me what you imagine God thinks about the 1/3 of pregnancies that spontaneously abort. Surely a hugely greater number that that of induced abortions. Easily in the billions. Do you believe these have souls and are human beings?


I have already addressed the 1/3 issue. It is a natural cause. As I said before, you can witness death with impunity, but cause it and it becomes an attrocity. Where the souls go is not answerable and irrelevant.

Let me ask you, do you think truth is immutable? Two Jews, three opinions maybe, but is there any one that is right, or perhaps none, perhaps only God? Is there really a subjectivity of truth? I think we might agree that God proclaims truth and it is up to man to align himself with God. I do personally believe in some "wiggle-room" but it is clear that man steps well beyond these boundaries on a regular basis. So in light of the fact that you believe that God does not look favorably on so many abortions, how do you appeal to the 1/3 argument? I am sure you understand that death happens all the time, and I speculate that you feel it is wrong to cause such deaths according to "Thou shalt not kill." So where does this leave you? Do you feel that fetal deaths are so immenent that trying to prevent them is pointless? Likewise, do you also feel that even causing one is not such a big deal? I am trying to figure out how you can appeal to that argument in good conscience.

It is not at all a thin line, when we are talking questions of determining whether murder is being committed or not. The burden of proof in the case of murder is, in fact, on the accusers, and is clearly spelled out in scripture. However we may view early abortion, it falls far short of the biblical requirements to sustain a charge of murder. Please read scripture yourself if you have doubts.


I agree that it falls short of the requirements to sustain the charge. The same situation would happen in the absence of two witnesses. Yet everyone knows that if a man kills another in secret it is murder. God declared Cain in the wrong in the absence of witnesses and sentenced him to exile. Did it make him any less of a murderer?

 bear45408
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 844
Abortion
Posted: 7/28/2008 12:04:40 PM

So in light of the fact that you believe that God does not look favorably on so many abortions, how do you appeal to the 1/3 argument? I am sure you understand that death happens all the time, and I speculate that you feel it is wrong to cause such deaths according to "Thou shalt not kill." So where does this leave you?
It leaves me back to the original question, of whether or not we are dealing with human beings or not. The commandment is not "Thou shalt not kill." It is "Thou shalt not Murder." It is a gross mistranslation to translate the commandmant as "Thou shalt not kill.", and may cause the makers of Raid, the insecticide, to sue.

If I understand your line of reasoning correctly, you are unsure of when a fetus becomes human, and so wish to take the side of complete assurance that it is not when an abortion is contemplated. A reasonable position if the decision was yours alone. As I've said, for those who choose not to have an abortion, no one forces them to. For the case, however, where we are thinking of imposing the decision on others, this is hardly sufficient. This is an extreme position, in variance with both modern and ancient law.

As a religious person, I have no obligion to align myself with the most extreme positions in religion. This is a page out of some other religion, certainly not mine. No, I choose a moderate position, and leave the extreme positions, on either side, to others.

If you feel that God does not understand this, that could be the difference in our religious backgrounds. I wish you well in your beliefs, as I hope you will do for me.
 altruist80
Joined: 10/13/2006
Msg: 845
Abortion
Posted: 7/28/2008 2:21:56 PM

If you feel that God does not understand this, that could be the difference in our religious backgrounds. I wish you well in your beliefs, as I hope you will do for me.


I am not sure what to say on that note. I do indeed wish you well in your beliefs, and I also ask you as I would anyone else to consider your position. I understand if you wish to discontinue, and I do appreciate your contributions.
 DEBRA2006
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 846
view profile
History
Abortion
Posted: 7/28/2008 3:04:34 PM
Did you know a new Law might be surfacing in England regarding Abortion. Instead of going to your local dr, GP for advice on abortion or the go ahead etc. In future it is going to the courts so the woman has got to stand in court in front of a judge etc for an abortion and the father has a right to fight for the live of the child? is this good or bad!
 bear45408
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 847
Abortion
Posted: 7/29/2008 7:35:00 AM

I am not sure what to say on that note. I do indeed wish you well in your beliefs, and I also ask you as I would anyone else to consider your position. I understand if you wish to discontinue, and I do appreciate your contributions.
altruist80, Sorry, didn't mean to phrase it so much like a signoff. All I'm saying is that I think my position is a moderate one. Many in religion seem to take the attitude that if one is good two must be better and God said so, so there! Not so.

As a Jew, for example, I frequently encounter the more Orthodox of my faith who strictlymaintain a separation between meat and milk products. When I am with one of them, naturally I also observe this, out of respect for them. But this comes from the scriptural verse "Thou shall not boil a kid(calf) in it's own mother's milk. The context of the verse is a section is about sacrifices, and indeed this was a form of pagan sacrifice. And clearly an abomination. So that's the way I understand the passage, and indeed I haven't done any such sacrifices to pagan gods. I'm fine. To my more careful co-religionists, things have progressed to a point where one may not eat things that look like meat and milk products. Thus a chicken and cheese sandwich is forbidden. Since I've not heard of chicken milk, I feel this goes too far. But these are logical extensions for those wishing to be ultra-careful. No more illogical than extending the point of human life all the way to conception, or even beyond.

I feel we have a real obligation not to go off with the most extreme positions. Somehow it seems to be the tendency to feel that God is somehow in favor of the more extreme positions, rather than the more rational ones. Yet we all think of God as being, shall we say, a bit smarter than we are. Why then assume God takes dumb positions?
 Platojag
Joined: 4/8/2008
Msg: 848
Abortion
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:32:09 PM
Wow..! A lot of reading on this forum, isn't there! Well.., I have seen this forum a lot of times & thought that I would put my two cents in, so.....

Without getting into a heady discussion about why I feel this way, I will just say that I agree with the very 1st post of this forum:
(which was)
--------------------------------------------
Tis not a crime against God. God understands when a raped woman does not wish to have the child of her attacker. God understands when a person does not want to have children.
God agrees with those who choose abortion, and holds nothing against them. If they don't have kids, he says "So be it!"
-------------------------------------------

Personally..., I think that having an abortion because: either of you were just too lazy to use birth control; thought it might be an interesting experiment/something new to try (re: the recent news reports in the U.S.); or that you wanted to have a child, then changed your mind after getting pregnant (assuming here.., that you are totally capable.. mentally, physically & financially of raising this child in a happy & healthy environment)... is wrong. Nothing to do directly with Religion or anything else, other than it is just very irresponsible thinking.

Now.., if the woman in question was: raped; forced into pregnancy by someone; came down with a very fatal disease that could be passed onto her child; or lost physical and/or mental capacity to raise the child in a healthy & happy environment, then.... I would agree with her decision.

BUT..., all in all... at the very end of all the argumnets posted (and there have been some great points made) ... I believe that the final decision should ALWAYS be that of the Pregnant woman. (whether others agree with her, or not). It is HER body, HER pregnancy & HER life change that is the most affected, so it should ultimately be HER CHOICE.

I don't think that God is a "hurtful God, nor do I believe that anyone should have "the fear of God put in them". God is not fear. God is LOVE. How can you agree that God is omni -benevelent, and then think that a woman will be "punished by God" for making a decision that (not everyone) agrees with? I'll tell you something, "we punish our own selves every day" when we know in our hearts, that we have done something wrong. God then... forgives us.
 Liana K
Joined: 6/13/2008
Msg: 849
Abortion
Posted: 7/29/2008 8:28:01 PM
^^^ I find that all very profound ...especially with the last statement of, 'God forgives us'. Nice post, platojag.
 altruist80
Joined: 10/13/2006
Msg: 850
Abortion
Posted: 7/30/2008 8:00:15 AM

I feel we have a real obligation not to go off with the most extreme positions. Somehow it seems to be the tendency to feel that God is somehow in favor of the more extreme positions, rather than the more rational ones. Yet we all think of God as being, shall we say, a bit smarter than we are. Why then assume God takes dumb positions?


I think the word" extreme" is subject for debate. I do understand your rationale as far as taking a moderate position. I can see that you consider it to be wise, and I could certainly agree with a moderate position on almost any other subject. I do not feel my position is "extreme." This is not because the word is subjective, but because this is not simply a matter of some minor trangression. To state that one should not do a thing under virtually any circumstances depends upon what the thing is. One cannot judge it to be an extreme point of view unless they know what action they feel should be prohibited. For example, to say that one should never have open flames around a flamable liquids storage area is hardly extreme, nor would it constitute a dumb position.


don't think that God is a "hurtful God, nor do I believe that anyone should have "the fear of God put in them". God is not fear. God is LOVE. How can you agree that God is omni -benevelent, and then think that a woman will be "punished by God" for making a decision that (not everyone) agrees with? I'll tell you something, "we punish our own selves every day" when we know in our hearts, that we have done something wrong. God then... forgives us.


Let's say you saw a man attempt to kill his child. Would you disagree with the decision? Would you then feel that you have no right to intervene? After all, it's obvious the man in question does not feel the same way about it as you do. He thinks he has good reason to do what he does. There is always rationalization involved. So... should you leave the situation up to God or try to prevent it? At this point it has nothing to do with God's judgement and everything to do with your duty as a human being. This is of course assuming that some people still possess this sense of duty.

I agree with you that God is love, so why assume he has no love for the child?

I think you misinterpret the "fear of God" as related to the liberties of His people. Tell me to which god you are referring and perhaps we can explore it. If you speak of Christianity, there are multiple warnings about abused liberty.
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