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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 9/30/2008 12:08:06 PM | I can only speak for me, but for me, the "reason" for dating is in response to sex drive, and sexuality is a big part of getting to know each other. You say that there's more to two people interacting than "just sex", and that's true, but there's a lot more to two people interacting in dating, than "everything else but sex".
In any case, OP, the fact is that you are here for "friendship and social networking", and that's fine. Why would a guy, who is looking for a normal relationship date you?
I don't get it, really. Why would someone go online to a dating site to "make friends"? There are real people in real life, who are naturally part of my life, who are friends. It doesn't matter what they look like, if someone is just a friend. Most of my friends are guys, but there are some women. I didn't go on the internet to find any of them. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/2/2008 10:03:05 AM | | Can't speak for all men, but for me I HAVE to be friends first. I wouldn't want to jump into a relationship if I didn't know whether we get on well. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/2/2008 10:26:37 AM | >> As much as I love the opposite sex, and I most certainly do!!
Well isn't that the answer? Attraction?
You want men to pretend they're not interested in you physically while you decide if you are to them.
>> I'm here for friendship and networking. If somewhere down the line we find we're otherwise attracted, then cool, we can go for it.
No such thing. You don't decide if you're attracted....it's involuntary....you are or you're not in short order....you know in 5 secs. whether you are physicaly attracted and maybe in 3-6 dates if you have emotional validation too. If you want to pretend you don't then that's simply evil....you should express what it's about of move on....if you don't have both and you still want the benefit of friendship and you don't say that (and most women don't) that's simply evil. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/2/2008 10:32:10 AM | I agree! I want to know someone before becoming intimate!
But, I fully understand the sentiment of other men! If they are
out for sex, then they want to see the goods, as soon as possible!
They don't want to risk getting friend zoned, or just wasting their
time and usually money! AND, there is another good reason to
rush things. If you have sex with a woman, you have established
a bond of sorts that may make the woman overlook other things.
If you haven't, and time goes by, there is a VERY good possibility
that you will be Weeded Out, and never end up getting any! lol | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/2/2008 10:45:15 AM | | why waste time getting to know each other and just hang out??? i rather just decide sooner if its gonna be friendship or a relationship...none of this dating stuff either | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/2/2008 2:11:58 PM | | unfortunately with men, having a platonic relationship first is the only way to see if their intentions are true. I dont like having to play these games but it seems its the only way, if they wait to get to know you, you can tell they are in it for you, if they bolt, you know they only wanted sex. I just wish they would grow out of that frat boy mentality. I'm not saying all men but most are that way these days. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/2/2008 2:46:01 PM | | A lot of people (both men and women) are defined by having someone as a SO. Being friends first is a must for any relationship, but if it is going to be a drawn out process most men aren't into that. I admit bone jumping although fun, is very inappropriate after an email or two. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/2/2008 3:55:05 PM | unfortunately with men, having a platonic relationship first is the only way to see if their intentions are true. ... I just wish they would grow out of that frat boy mentality.
Well, that's certainly the prevailing viewpoint among women, but I don't think that when a man bolts it was necessarily because he just wanted to score.
I can count on one hand the women with whom I've had sex when there was no initial intention to develop a relationship. But there have been several occasions where I have come to the conclusion that a woman I was taken with in the moment wasn't going to be good for me in the long run.
I think women do themselves a disservice when they attribute a loss of interest to bad intentions. Sure it happens, but there is often a bit more to it than that.
BTW, there are many aspects of the frat-boy/sorority-girl mentality that I wish people would grow out of. | |
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zeeba
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Joined: 8/31/2008
Msg: 84 | |
| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/2/2008 4:58:00 PM |
I think women do themselves a disservice when they attribute a loss of interest to bad intentions. Sure it happens, but there is often a bit more to it than that.
This is so interesting and thank you, AceofSpace! I have been very interested in all the "Friends First" threads that seem to be prevalent right now.
I do have some very good platonic friendships with men, and I appreciate the fact that they can often help me figure out how many men might "think" differently from many women. In dating, one of my favorite things to do (not THE favorite thing, BTW!  ) is to have a great conversation with the man. I have a rather quirky sense of humor; think of the early Mad Magazine, the first five years of SNL, and National Lampoon and you will have it. I need someone who is quick-witted, up on current events, and can laugh at himself and the general oddness of the world.
If I find that...it really helps with the old "attraction and connection" factor. So, I guess some women might define THAT conversation as friends first. I don't, though. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/2/2008 7:04:06 PM |
if they wait to get to know you, you can tell they are in it for you, if they bolt, you know they only wanted sex.
No, you don't know any such thing. It's perfectly normal for a man ( or woman) to want a relationship, and to want it to be sexual. It is, after all, what defines something as a "romantic relationship", as opposed to mere "friendship".
sex + friendship= romantic love
friendship- sex= friends
sex - friends= just sex.
A basis of friendship should have been established prior to a first date. Then sex, or the lack of it, if you're attracted, will reveal if you are "really" into each other. When I've been looking, I have been looking for a relationship. It's why I'm in one now. However, I have never been interested in some protracted period of "dating" without sex. I haven't pursued that dating paradigm since high school, and I don't know anyone in my real life, men or women, who do either. The grownups I know in real life, date, in part, in response to having a sex drive, and to have a sex life. Friendship naturally develops along with sexual intimacy. On the other hand, becoming good friends, does nothing to advance sexual intimacy.
Some men have "figured it out", that it's not that hard to "get a date", and so are unwilling to allow a woman to "take control" of things, through withholding sex.
Beyond that, if a woman has a strong sex drive, she isn't going to want to wait, any more than I do, so if she "just isn't into me", or she "isn't that sexually driven", doesn't really matter. Either way, we aren't a match, and it's time to move on. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 1:52:05 PM | | The OP has confused "being friends" with "having respect". It's entirely possible to be on a romantic date and not push for sex. That's called having respect. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 4:03:53 PM | | Jumping your bones is the best way there is to get to know you in the most detail in the shortest amount of time. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 4:07:23 PM | | Why doesn't POF set up a Platonic Pals Pool? All the women who want just friendship, and no sex-at least for a long time-can go there. All the men who want sex can stay away. Let's see who misses whom first? I suspect there will be enough women who want sex to keep most guys happy without any guy having to settle for the no sex gals of the PPP. What say you? | |
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D48763
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Joined: 8/25/2008
Msg: 89 | |
| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 4:15:42 PM | Hey ,,what you experince is common for men as well,,,to make contact,,,email,chat,phone calls to a level they are mutal friends no matter what all takes place before meeting,,,the advantage is "sreeening "out those who are not what one seeks,,,if your not friends and you meet,,,and do not know enough about each other,,,failure to communicate is already a issue,,,mutaly,,,yet once one is ready to meet,both comfortable and mutaly respect,encourage deep open hoesnt communication,,than they meet as freinds first,,,and what ever takes place will be mutaly comfortable and no pressure,,,,yes,,there are those who refuse to open up and ask the deep honest questions,,,red flag,,,yet there are those who demand a one on one relationship even before meeting,,,insecurity or use of sexuality( only one example,,,) as a control tool,,,red flag,,,they figure they have set the hook,and too late to turn away,,,,wrong,,,at the time of meeting if you feel your friends,,it shoule be at a level like if you broke down,,would they come and pick you up,or bring you gas,,,or get you an asprin if you have a head ace,,,,care,concern for your welbing should be demonstrated,expressed or red flag,,,,if they think they can "jump your bones" its because they thought they could just get away with it,,,
Have a great day,,,Dave:) | |
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D48763
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Joined: 8/25/2008
Msg: 90 | |
| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 4:21:57 PM | The only reason for dating is the "responce to a sex drive",,,,,thats what the bar flies are for ,that and hookers,,or gold diggers,( thats something why you may have a hrard time dating,),,,,,sexuality is only half of what a human being needs,,,,,sensuality is all the great many emotional needs a human needs,,,a bay will pass away with denial of emotional contact,inter reaction,,,men/women have to have human emotional contact and inter reactions,,,
Normal guys seek to share activites with more than drinkng buddies,,or hunting buddies,,,yep they also do not dance with buddies,,I think you may have placed the wrong words to what you are thinking,,,right,,,
Have a great day,,,Dave:) | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 7:43:46 PM |
The only reason for dating is the "responce to a sex drive",,,,,thats what the bar flies are for ,that and hookers,,or gold diggers,( thats something why you may have a hrard time dating,),,,,,sexuality is only half of what a human being needs,,,,,sensuality is all the great many emotional needs a human needs
Rather than argue with you about natural drives for the logical purpose of survival of the species, let's grant the point. It is true, that a relationship needs more than just sex. It also needs more than "everything except sex". I don't want to be with someone, where our only activity or communication is sex, but I wouldn't be with someone, if the sexual connection weren't a good one to start with.
sex + friendship = love
friendship - sex = friends
sex - friendship = just sex.
Both sides of the equation are critically important, and both, for me, have to develop simultaneously. I'm about as "interested" in "friends first" to the exclusion of sex, as the woman who says "friends first", if I were to say "we'll just have sex, until I feel we've gotten to know each other sexually well enough, for me to feel comfortable in being friends".  | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 8:06:51 PM |
We can move slowly, but our direction is determined virtually immediately. Good men wait, good women don't keep us waiting too long for convention's
I mostly agree, except I can still point mine in whatever direction the head with eyes chooses. lol
Hey, DC, good to see you showing up again. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 8:14:21 PM | "sex + friendship = love
friendship - sex = friends
sex - friendship = just sex. "
It's a little disturbing to me that someone that is nearly 2.5X my age could write something like this and apparently not recognize how absurd it is. It's not very hard to find an obvious example that contradicts this, I have no doubts whatsoever that at some point in time a quadriplegic has established a deeper relationship than a friendship. Uncommon, sure, but it demonstrates falsifiability.
I don't understand your motives in constantly espousing your theory that one cannot have more than a friendship without sleeping together. It seems like a great deal of your postings revolve around this idea and trying to "prove" to people that see things otherwise that they are wrong about how they perceive their relationships. If that is what works for you, wonderful, more power to you. I would hope that you can see that other people have a different perspective which is equally as valid, yet does not fall under some simplistic equation which attempts to summarize the amazing diversity of human relationships in three lines. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 8:27:43 PM |
I have no doubts whatsoever that at some point in time a quadriplegic has established a deeper relationship than a friendship
In attempting dialogue about what is "normatively" true, it's impossible to encompass every possible permutation. The incidences of quadriplegics entering into new romantic relationships is statistically insignificant. That being said, let'd consider that, for the sake of discussion.
If someone, who is incapable of normal sexual function, were to enter into a new relationship, then there might well be "affection", but the dictionary definition of love is: ' attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers"
I suggest that if there is no way for two people to become lovers, then "romantic" love isn't possible. Strong affection of a deep and special friendship is. What would more commonly be the situation, would be that a relationship existed, based on being lovers, and then someone had a tragic accident. In that case, a relationship already established could sustain, even without being able to be lovers. That would also pertain to illnesses and injury, that would temporarily, or permanently, preclude sex.
IMO, it is not possible to have a relationship based on "everything but" sex.
A significant %age of people will have a "below average" sexual need, to balance those with "above average", in order to achieve an average. If people want to hang out with each other in order to "not have sex" together, and they choose to call it a "relationship", ok. It wouldn't constitute what I'd call a relationship, though.
As to "why" I choose to post often on the topic, it's as a balancing voice, to what is the prevailing attitude in the fora, that is in complete variance with what I believe is the prevailing attitude in the real world. The "friends firsters", who often justify that position out of bitterness or anger, and often aren't really dating, shouldn't be allowed to dominate the discussion, without an injection of common sense. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 8:39:03 PM | Very simple.
Cause man can't go over the fact that the lady he likes does some other guy while he is playing role of friend. It hurts man ego...so yeah Man who wants you can't be friend of yours. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 9:43:22 PM | | Because if you become her friend, your chances of being with her in a relationship are drastically reduced. While it's convenient for the woman to have lots of male friends to choose from, it makes it a lot harder for a guy to get a girlfriend. The woman stops seeing the guy as a romantic possibility and he becomes only a friend. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 9:59:38 PM | | It is because todays society--from what i've seen--has blured the lines. If a man waits to long to make a move he has entered the "friend zone". So many men just put all they want out front or they just want sex and nothing else. I believe for many of the socialy unadjusted like me--we just don't understand the time table or can't understand the time table because it is different for every women. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/7/2008 11:33:15 PM | | Well it's my personal opinion that a lot of times being "friends" first screws up any chances of becoming more later. It's hard to get out of the friend zone once you're in it. Then again, I suppose if the sparks are flying high enough, it shouldn't matter... but I don't think it always turns out that way. | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/8/2008 3:21:35 AM | | because it's friends for good. been there done it and still doing it. it ain't too fun listening to whining about there "ex" all the time. friends are friends lovers are lovers... | |
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| Why Can't Men Be Friends First??
Posted: 10/8/2008 4:18:02 AM |
It is because todays society--from what i've seen--has blured the lines. If a man waits to long to make a move he has entered the "friend zone". So many men just put all they want out front or they just want sex and nothing else. I believe for many of the socialy unadjusted like me--we just don't understand the time table or can't understand the time table because it is different for every women.
Exactly, and it really should not be this way (not that I make the rules) but the IRONY of it all is that everyone including the "experts" state the best relationship is based off starting off as a friendship. But alot of people seem to put all their money on "Chemistry" and tell within the first 5 mins of just meeting them that they could date.....this is acting in haste and even lust actually, and the "relationship" just turns out to be a short, month-by-month (about 3 month) fling.
There's this one woman I know, gorgeous, if she's in a room, about 3 or 4 guys are talking to her at one time, sometimes they make her uncomfortable by being bombarded by so many men, she also gets the vibe that are up to no good (I guess what she means by that, they only want ONE thing). She's even told numerous people she's not dating (which I found unsual, since she is single...even her MS profile she has left out "dating, relationships", just has networking/friends.
She tells ME that I make her feel very comfortable.....guess I'm doing something right...or have I been FZ'ed?...who knows, right? All I know is, is that we get along pretty well, and "get" each other. She has no problem talking to me in conversation...and is actually happy to see me. She mentions there are certain guys that creep her out, but I don't
Unfortunately, and I'm sure you've seen some sitcoms like this.....where a male friend is in a "friendship" with a woman he's deeply in love with, lol. This relationship is probably the most agonizing of them all. lol The "Friendzone" relationship. | |
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