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late™
| Joined: 1/9/2005 Msg: 226 | |
| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/6/2006 8:08:29 PM | Illusion , my dear, illusion
Yet........
The supernatural is true to me where it has been sufficiently proven to my sences to allow me to believe.
?
Subjective/objective ...........not .......the ........same.
How can a medium do anything good?
If they don't exist, how can they do anything related to that which they can't demonstrate?
If they can't demonstrate outside the veil of illusion, ......do they even exist? | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/6/2006 8:10:35 PM | Thanx for the link Late. After reading the whole thing, it convinces me further this test is impossible to pass. From the challenge rules:
EVERY APPLICANT MUST AGREE UPON WHAT WILL CONSTITUTE A CONCLUSION THAT, ON THE OCCASION OF THE FORMAL TEST, HE OR SHE DID OR DID NOT DEMONSTRATE THE CLAIMED ABILITY OR POWER. This form must be accompanied by a brief, two-paragraph description of the applicant's claim, along with a concise test protocol proposal that describes how the claim will be demonstrated, the circumstances under which the demonstration will take place, and the degree of accuracy the applicant claims to achieve (i.e.; what results will constitute a successful demonstration).
Does not say what the tests will be, nor how they will be performed.
IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices.
This makes the money virtually impossible to win, since most gifts, especially mediumship come from the aid of God/angels. I understand now why noone has won this challenge. | |
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late™
| Joined: 1/9/2005 Msg: 228 | |
| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/6/2006 8:14:03 PM | Does not say what the tests will be, nor how they will be performed.
Depends on the "ability".
Read further:
http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html
Still convinced it's impossible given the definitions of the "supernatural"?
IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices.
Well, .....d'uh...
The sun will rise tomorrow!!!!!!! I comand it!!!!!
m'kay
2.6. Why is the JREF so hard-nosed about not changing the rules?
It all comes down to the very nature of a challenge. It's not a contest; there are not two parties competing for the same prize. It's a challenge. It's someone who, as a result of extensive experience, doesn't believe you can do what you say you can do, daring you to do what you say you can do. It's a dare. It's not at all a friendly agreement. It's an adversarial arrangement, and because of that, the JREF sees no reason to change the rules for its adversaries.
While the JREF sees no "enemies" in its search for the truth, it understands that, by definition, the challenge itself sets an adversarial tone to the proceedings that is most often wholly unavoidable.
In order to best understanding the nature of this relationship, you should keep in mind that the JREF is the one doing the actual challenging. This adversarial nature is important to keep in mind as you go through the challenge process. Your claim casts you in the role of the defendant, and the only thing the JREF asks of you in defending your claim, is to demonstrate it. No theories, no stories, no anecdotal evidence, no photographs, no tape recordings; just a simple demonstration. Nothing more is required. The Challenge rules may seem complicated upon first glance, but they are not. You have a paranormal claim? Great! Demonstrate it successfully, and the Million Dollar Prize is yours. It's really that simple. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/6/2006 8:24:34 PM |
Still convinced it's impossible given the definitions of the "supernatural"?
Yes, I'm still convinced it's impossible, but not given the definitions of the spernatural, but given the conditions set forth what is rules NOT paranormal.
The following things have been ruled NOT paranormal and/or NOT eligible for the Challenge in the past:
UFOs. "Bigfoot" & "Yeti" (or other legendary creatures). Anything that is likely to cause injury. "Cloud-busting". Claims of a Religious or Spiritual nature. Exorcism and/or Demonic Possession. The Existence of Chakras. The Existence of God[s]. Reincarnation. The Existence of the Soul or "Astral Bodies".
Since the soul is what the medium is contacting when communicating with the dead, the soul / astral body IS a ghost, and Randi is saying The existence of the soul is not an acceptable challenge, it is impossible to do the test and win. | |
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late™
| Joined: 1/9/2005 Msg: 230 | |
| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/6/2006 8:32:54 PM | (sigh)
They aren't asking anybody to demonstrate the existance of a soul.
Did you read:
2.1. What do you mean by "mutually agreed upon"? 2.2. What do you mean by "paranormal"? 2.3. Does (this) qualify as paranormal? 2.4. Why the limitation on things that might injure me? 2.5. Why the limitation on spiritual and religious claims? 2.6. Why is the JREF so hard-nosed about not changing the rules? 2.7. I disagree with a rule, or a rule shouldn't apply in my case. How do I go about changing it or getting it waived?
??????
How is this "impossible" given the definition of "medium"?
Hmm?
2.3. Does (this) qualify as paranormal?
The best way to answer this is to examine this list of things that people commonly apply for.
The following things are paranormal by definition:
Dowsing. ESP. Precognition. Remote Viewing. Communicating with the Dead and/or "Channeling". Violations of Newton's Laws of Motion (Perpetual Motion Devices). Homeopathy. Chiropractic Healing (beyond back/joint problems). Faith Healing. Psychic Surgery. Astrology. Therapeutic Touch (aka "TT"). Qi Gong. Psychokinesis (aka "PK"). The Existence of Ghosts. Precognition & Prophecy. Levitation. Physiognomy. Psychometry. Pyramid Power. Reflexology. Applied Kinesiology (aka "AK"). Clairvoyance. The Existence of Auras. Graphology. Numerology. Palmistry. Phrenology
The following things have been ruled NOT paranormal and/or NOT eligible for the Challenge in the past:
UFOs. "Bigfoot" & "Yeti" (or other legendary creatures). Anything that is likely to cause injury. "Cloud-busting". Claims of a Religious or Spiritual nature. Exorcism and/or Demonic Possession. The Existence of Chakras. The Existence of God[s]. Reincarnation. The Existence of the Soul or "Astral Bodies".
There are some claims that are far too implausible to warrant any serious examination, such as the "Breatharian" claims in which the applicant states that he can survive without food or water. Science conclusively tells us all we need to know about such matters, and the JREF feels no obligation to engage applicants in such delusions.
Many of the NOT PARANORMAL claims are listed as such solely because they cannot be properly tested for. For example, in order to prove that Exorcism is real, one must first establish the existence of demons. The JREF is unaware of a manner in which it might be proven that demons exist (or god, or angels or "elementals", for that matter), while remaining open to any suggestions that might change their opinion in this regard.
So, if someone can suggest a test protocol that would conclusively verify such things, the JREF would be willing to hear about it.
Other claims, such as "Crop Circles" and UFO's are rejected because they have been definitively proven to be the result of hoaxes or mass hysteria. Claims involving "Cloud-Busting", for example, are rejected because Science (along with keen observation) tells us conclusively that clouds will move and disperse despite the efforts of humankind to move them according to their wishes. The phenomenon behind Oujia boards, for example, is attributed to ideomotor reflexes, and not to anything paranormal.
The JREF will also not waste its time (or jeopardize the applicant's safety and well being) with claims from applicants who exhibit clear signs of paranoid delusions, schizophrenia or other mental illness, feeling strongly that it is their moral responsibility to avoid the furthering of such delusions in the minds of those who may be in need of immediate psychiatric attention. What this means is that it is OK for you to be deluded, as the JREF feels many applicants may well be, but it is not OK for the JREF to support your illness, if you have shown clear, clinical signs of suffering from one. Randi feels that his personal and moral obligations in this regard far supercede the JREF's professional obligation to test all applicants. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/6/2006 9:19:26 PM | Yes Late, I did read all that.
So, if someone can suggest a test protocol that would conclusively verify such things, the JREF would be willing to hear about it.
Willing to hear about it yes, willing to accept it as proof? I doubt it.
I believe the money will never be given out on the basis that he doesn't want to accept the validity of a soul, Yet, he says communicating with the dead is an acceptable challenge...you cant have one without the other.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this matter. | |
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late™
| Joined: 1/9/2005 Msg: 232 | |
| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/6/2006 9:46:17 PM | I believe the money will never be given out on the basis that he doesn't want to accept the validity of a soul, Yet, he says communicating with the dead is an acceptable challenge...you cant have one without the other.
According to faith you can't have an afterlife with out a soul.
The soul is not the issue being challenged, neither is the after life, nor faith.
Or
PLEASE: Do not burden us with theories, philosophical observations, previous examples, anecdotal evidence or other comments! We are only interested in an actual demonstration.
"Actual demonstration"
Not proof of "soul"
Not proof of "afterlife"
Proof of:
The following things are paranormal by definition:
Dowsing. ESP. Precognition. Remote Viewing. Communicating with the Dead and/or "Channeling". Violations of Newton's Laws of Motion (Perpetual Motion Devices). Homeopathy. Chiropractic Healing (beyond back/joint problems). Faith Healing. Psychic Surgery. Astrology. Therapeutic Touch (aka "TT"). Qi Gong. Psychokinesis (aka "PK"). The Existence of Ghosts. Precognition & Prophecy. Levitation. Physiognomy. Psychometry. Pyramid Power. Reflexology. Applied Kinesiology (aka "AK"). Clairvoyance. The Existence of Auras. Graphology. Numerology. Palmistry. Phrenology.
Note:
The hardest part has always been to get the claimant to state clearly what he or she thinks they can do, under what conditions, and with what accuracy. Most are very vague about these aspects, and very few have any notion of how a proper test should be conducted. We at JREF sometimes take months getting those matters settled, only to have the applicant suddenly drop out of the negotiations. But the actually solving of what's happening, or why claimants believe that they have powers — if that state of negotiation is ever reached — is easy, because the range of claims is rather small and nothing really new is ever offered. The claims are sometimes interesting variations on very old misconceptions or delusions, but seldom is there anything that surprises us or that requires very much heavy analysis. Of course, there are some situations where not enough information has been given by the applicant, even though we try to get all the needed data, so in these cases we are not able to ever determine what the claim might actually be.
Further:
What harm does it do to simply let people believe in silly things? Why do you take away their pleasant delusions?
The potential harm is very real, and dangerous. Belief in such obvious flummeries as astrology or fortune-telling can appear — quite incorrectly — to give confirmatory results, and that can lead to the victim pursuing more dangerous, expensive, and often health-related scams. Blind belief can be comforting, but it can easily cripple reason and productivity, and stop intellectual progress. We at JREF never try to impose our beliefs or philosophies on others; we only try to inform them, and suggest that there are alternate choices to be made. Examples of personal tragedies resulting from an uncritical embrace of supernatural claims, are plentiful.
The OP:
Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 9/5/2005 10:04:06 PM In 1924 Scientfic American magazine offered a 10 thousand dollar cash prize to any medium who could come forth and show that they were genuine. The had to meet a set of rules established by Harry Houdini. One by one the most famous psychics and mediums came forth and Houdini exposed them one by one. To my knowledge the prize was never awarded. Is this whole practice fraudulent? What do you think?
It takes a while for $10K to turn into a Million, ......... but, ....it's still there. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/6/2006 11:08:18 PM | Late, I would agree with you on pretty well every "supernatural" ability being able to be proven in this test, except mediumship (communcication with the dead).
A medium does not have any power. The power is the spirits of those who have passed on, and they don't care about Randi's challenge. LOL. In fact, they may even refuse to come to the medium during such a test, just for the fact that we are not permitted to be proven life after death just yet. At least that what it appears to me, or God would give us all a huge sign to leave out any doubt.
Sylvia obviously doesn't need Randi's money, but I cannot explain why she doesn't give the same explanation as I have given above, except that it would denounce any "power" attributed to her personally.
Sylvia does not only claim mediumship though, she claims to be a psychic. Psychic ability could be proven with cards, so I agree with you there that she is avoiding the challenge as to her "psychic" ability. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/6/2006 11:16:19 PM | Maybe she feels it's making a spectacle of her gifts to be wired up and poked and proded like a test chimp? Just a thought.
I agree with bewitched tho..to be 100% accurate on anything would be more than impressive. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/7/2006 5:15:42 AM | Mediums are not being used across the country to help solve crimes and locate missing persons.
Personally I think those would be called using their powers for good. | |
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late™
| Joined: 1/9/2005 Msg: 236 | |
| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/7/2006 6:19:51 AM |
Maybe she feels it's making a spectacle of her gifts to be wired up and poked and proded like a test chimp? Just a thought.
Yet, she has no problems going on internationally syndicated television shows....... Oh, yeah, ....and she already agreed to be tested, ...but she's been avoiding it, for years. She asked for some rules to be changed at one point, ....they allowed this, ....nada.
http://www.randi.org/jr/090701.html
Mediums are not being used across the country to help solve crimes and locate missing persons.
Can you cite some, so we can see if they've been investigated? | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/7/2006 8:32:56 AM |
There IS a way to prove it, ....nobody has yet.
That pretty much sums it up in a nut shell. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/7/2006 5:59:24 PM | | If mediums are fake and have no abilites at all, then why were people in the bible so hard pressed to condemn consulting them? | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/7/2006 7:39:55 PM | | I haven't read this entire forum yet, so forgive me if my post is redundant. I never believed in psychics until I actually spoke with one when I was a kid. He didn't do anything overly dramatic-he just guessed a card that I was holding from over the phone. This was before cell phones,mind you..At any rate, long story short, I KNOW it wasn't rigged. It was real, and enough to make me a believer for life. I can say,however, that he is the ONLY real psychic I've ever spoken to, and I've looked, believe me. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/7/2006 7:44:40 PM | My mother used to go to an elderly lady who was very gifted. She only took donations of whatever you could afford. She gave a tape with all her predictions...every single one of them came true.
I wanted to go to her...sadly she has crossed over now. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/7/2006 7:51:44 PM | if you were in King Saul`s day you could go to the medium there and have her conjured up. But you would have been killed if caught cause King Saul had set a decree. But he broke his own decree by getting a witch to conjure up Samuel. For some unknown reason God doesn`t think it`s a good idea but it doesn`t seem that the witch there was a fraud. But she was as surprised as anyone else when he appeared. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 2/9/2006 10:14:48 PM | Yes, Saul seemed to get away with it, but then most of God's favored in the bible were allowed to go against the commandments without reprocussion.
Mediums are not being used across the country to help solve crimes and locate missing persons.
I would like to read about this also. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 10/5/2006 9:01:45 PM |
Look at the number of them that are not being used in police work. I am sure they get paid by the police department, yet they seem to be able to help track things down, when the cops are at a loss.
All mediums are frauds. Period. When a 'psychic' is consulted by the police, it's at the request of the family. The police know they're as useless as screen-doors on submarines, but if they don't exhaust every option, at the request of the family, they're portrayed as uncaring.
No psychic has ever, anywhere, given any aid whatsoever in the location of a missing child.
If you want references backing up that statement, just ask. I'll provide. This is a subject that bothers me greatly.
If any psychic, anywhere, can prove that they have any paranormal abilities whatsoever, feel free to ask me how they can walk away with a million American dollars (1,000,000$USD) if they can only demonstrate their claim. The money's there. | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 10/5/2006 9:04:00 PM | Sorry, Late, I see you're fighting the good fight on this already. I'm a member of the JREF.
Cheers. Leroy | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 10/5/2006 10:39:11 PM | Read about Edgar Cayce and others who had similar gifts. Edgar once allowed himself to be scientifically studied. While he was in his sub-conscience state, they poked him with needles, ripped his nails off of his fingers. When he awoke and felt the pain, he promised never to allow them near him again. What it takes for the non-believers is almost disecting the person who is guilty before proven to be who they profess to be.
There are many more frauds then there are true mediums and most of those who are aware of their gift, keep it to themselves and use their intuitive skills and ability to communicate with what a simpleton would call someone from beyond for family and friends and do not charge for it. Sometimes when they go forward, they have to endure what Cayce endured or worse. Personally I can not blame those who have the ability but have not commercialized it, from coming forward like some of those you see on the speaker/book tours and TV talk show circut.
Remember, if you are different, they are afraid of you and they usually kill what is different, especially if it can not be controlled for their own purpose.
Fortunately I believe there is a new form of conscienceness that is awakening within people on a global level that is showing others that they are wearing blindfolds and they are simply enabling the greedy and the morally bankrupt to control them by conforming to obvious agenda driven dogmas that provide a worldwide taxation on those who still (unknowingly) bow and honor Caesar and the Roman Empire via the Pope and his associates. Look at the other religions, it is all based upon old power and the pushing of dogmatic principles upon young persons to hold then back from the truth they seek. New power needs to be born that rids the people and the world of the past and the corrupt nature of those who are currently pulling many strings and killing countless innocent people all so that they can live an easy life with servants, elevating themselves above others with those who graciously lick their boots for a taste of the false and stolen power while others sweat and bleed to fill their pockets.
Sad truth is that "almost" every mainstream western based religion is benefiting the same group of people. Remember, they also abide by and operate under John "Wreckafella" Rockafella and his highest of business ethics.... "Competition is Sin" so for more then 100yrs, their family empire, tied to Eurpopean and Middle east money (mostly from New York) has taken over politics, religion, education, energy, banking, media and just about everything else in the US and in some incidences, within other countries.
When you give money to a mainstream church or most highly publicized charitable organizations, you are gving them your money and it comes to them from everywhere. Do you think they ever want this to change...I think not. Help change the world, start a new church...lol
Sheeple....when will they wake up and remove the blinders..... | |
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| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 10/5/2006 11:34:56 PM | OP: Sorry, read the subject and post skipped to the puchline...
Ever heard of the Uncertainty Principal?
Not to make light of the need to know or validate PSI phenomena, but you are way late on the boat here....
PSI exists. The weight of evidence is overwhelming. The problem is in making it handy in a scientific, vis a vis, reproducable environment. Somehow the fact that today in our lab is not the same as yesterday in our lab keeps messing things up.
When will scientists get that reproducability is limited to actually reproducing?
Really. I get scientific method. Good stuff. Makes good medicine. Makes good something. But at the top of the list is "I mix Y with Z and get F". It's a science experiment. Good Oh. The problem is that the world, people, and situations move. As a result, given that we have no decent calculus for calculating the drift such changes have on an experiment where time, people and geopolitical maneuvering are factors we have no way of telling whether a positive today and a negative tomorrow are conta-indications, or the same reading once we factor in the other issues at play.
It's not like PSI is a soft science. It isn't. It has hard and fast rules, and is subject to rigour. But there are many variables at play.
Put simply, PSI makes a Shuttle Lauch look like childs play. | |
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Flear
| Joined: 5/7/2006 Msg: 249 | |
| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 10/6/2006 12:57:56 AM | Dented knight, i believe you understand what PSI is and isn't very well, far better then a lot of people.
PSI in a scientific laboratory trying to reproduce exact repeatable experiments gets far to complicated to worry about.
a persons ability is subject to their feelings and situations they are going through in life, it isn't like chemistry where gold is always gold, on a hot day or the middle of winter, at zero atmopheric pressure or in the vacuume of space.
PSI is currently controlled by people and people are subject to have their ups and downs, they have worries and concerns, joys & hopes. all of these come into play, as well as any adverse effects that may arise from medications (which many are making steps to show that much of the medicine out there to "help" certain problems, ADD, depression, anxiety and many other such problems, can be worse then the problem it's supposed to treat, and children growing up on this stuff are having developmental problems in other areas of their life, ... so i'm not a fan of all those drugs and chemicals that screw with the body & mind over effects that basic psychology can fix, ADD = kids have energy, deal with it, don't confine the kid.
anyway, back to the thought, ... medicine can screw with a persons ability with PSI, as can sleep problems and even any sence of time restrictions, ... just the feeling of being pressed for time is enough to make things difficult or stop it entirely.
then you've got the experimentors who have their own views about what is and isn't real adding their energies to the experiement which can & will have effects on the results & it's repeatability.... there is a reason those groups who are offering $$$ to prove the existance of PSI have never met people who can collect.
i have also heard that studies on using PSI in lab situations have lost their ability after extensivly using it in lab situations. ... the concensus seems to be keep PSI in real applications and don't treat it like a game or toy, if all your going to do is play games with it, then why bother having it, ... so now how far does the repeatable scientific testing go in undermining itself at studying PSI here ???
so with Dented knights shuttle launch comparison, ... shuttles launch repeatably under as many situations and curcumstances as they feel comfortable with regardless of what anyone thinks or their feelings or outside individuals beliefs or thoughts about what is right or wrong, ... and if a shuttle is depleated of fuel, they just put more in, ... if a person is depleated of PSI energy, ... for a day or so they're screwed, i deal with lethargic, feverish sweats, nausia, headaches, loss of appitite, can't sleep but too drained to do anything other then lay in bed, ... simply i fall apart, ... shuttles don't do that either.
all other bits of physics that play into this are also exacting and repeatable, ... quantum physics (the closest i know of to science & PSI converging) ... well they're understanding a lot of what we thought we knew is wrong and a lot of what we know now is subjective. | |
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Flear
| Joined: 5/7/2006 Msg: 250 | |
| Are all mediums frauds? Posted: 10/6/2006 1:07:22 AM | oops forgot something :)
i always get a kick out of the people who not only don't believe but find some thrill out of going out of their way to get in other peoples ways to push their views on someone else just because they think differently.
it's been said over and over ... and over by most any group of people who knows anything about PSI, "it's about belief", those who don't believe just can't seem to be capable of understanding this part of reality, ... if you don't believe then you'll do everything you can to rationalize it away by any thinking that you are willing to accept, even if it means 20 coincidences happened that where all just chance, luck and common sence, but the possiblity that the psychic was genuine and actualy knew, ... well that would just go against my views because "I" don't want to accept, and because "I" don't want to accept, i am going to insist everyone else should feel the same.
for everyone who doesn't believe, what part of "it's about belief" is hard to understand ?
and say we are all full of it, are you getting anywhere by trying to force everyone to believe as you do, or would it be easier for you to get on your life and just smile and shake your head because somewhere you know you've got better things to do with your life, ... unless you don't have anything better to do, then you need to re-evaluate your life instead of creating problems for others.
we don't bug you, so it does kinda make sence if you think about it | |
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