| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/1/2005 5:24:13 PM | picture this Count!
imagine if you lived in an immaculate home or palace, and then you had a kid.....you loved this child and you wanted him to be in your image.......you set guideline for him so as to make him understand.......yet one day he went out to play and willingly disobeyed your instructions (as most kids do), you told him to keep himself from getting dirty in his new clothes that day, but he didn't listen to you and he came back dirty (sin)....being that your house is opulent, you certainly can't let him walk around messing everything up so you tell him that he has to be bathed first to remove the filth and remove the filthy clothes....in doing so, you must expend time and effort to clean him up so he can walk in your midst again and have run of the house.
when adam sinned, he had to be cleaned up, this required effort, not just a hand shake or a nod!.....God is perfection in his own realm, and he cannot stand imperfection.....if god were to appear on earth, we would all be vaporized instantly.....to circumvent this he had to take a part of himself and offer it as a sacrifice for the 'sin', since there was nothing we could do to change that.......thus the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice was to justify us(an act of Grace since, this was NOT really necessary), it could not be done otherwise, God cannot bend his own rules even for himself.......after the crucifixion, jesus (the son) returns to splendor, HOWEVER, the Father still sees Jesus on the cross paying the price for 'eternity'!!!! | |
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LuvLit
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Joined: 10/1/2005
Msg: 27 | |
| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/1/2005 5:36:47 PM | I find that when people accuse others of dictating how they should live, it is nothing more than an assumption. Although I would not assume to know this gentleman's experience, I find that a lot of people will use any and all reasons/excuses to do exactly what they want, when they want, howevere they want.
Jesus does not want automatons. He wants a relationship. period. | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/1/2005 7:35:05 PM | | How can one have a relationship with a being that they cannot hear, see, or know is around them? If I claimed to have an ongoing relationship with one of my deceased relatives, would you believe it to be true? Probably not, so if that is impossible, then how is it possible to have a relationship with the spirit of Jesus Christ? | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/1/2005 8:07:02 PM | at eagle
jesus is very much alive thru those who believe in him, and he is DEAD to those who don't!.....you must die in the flesh, which will then allow the spirit to take control.
if you believe jesus is as dead as your relatives are then you can just leave it at that! | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/1/2005 9:23:33 PM | | If I was an all-powerful God I could probably arrange it so that clothes would get magically cleaned every time someone entered my house. | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 8:48:54 AM | | I need a verse from the Bible where Jesus claimed divinity? Very clearly. Not one of those vague verses. | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 11:20:49 AM | | ^ why don't you read John 17........how many times do i have to tell you!......there are other passages as well.......you should stop listening to your imam and read the Bible for yourself! | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 11:23:04 AM | at count
funny!......but even if you could arrange that it would still require some effort of some type.....but imagine if you did it that way, how would you discipline your kid when he did something wrong! | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 2:07:58 PM | Christ Jesus is now and forever, was a man and lives on the simple aspect of it how another percives this is totally up to them unfortunate but true.
Time will tell just how much time it will take is also one's choice.
Jimmy it is very nice to see this thread.
Is one willing to die for Christ Jesus? you may believe in God but are you ready to give your life for Christ?
I am trying, still | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 2:39:28 PM | | Jesus' sacrifice is like saying you're not going to discipline your kid any more. I think I'd have some kind of "mirror effect." If you cause someone pain, not only do they not feel it but you do. If you steal from someone it's magically returned to them. If you try to kill someone, you die instead of him. This preserves free will and makes punishment immediate. It also works with pleasure. If you make someone else feel good you'll feel good too. | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 2:45:42 PM | | I don't see anything in John 17 where Jesus claims to be God. Rather, Jesus places himself in a subordinate position to God throughout. If you're reffering to Jesus saying he's one with God then John 17:23 is proof that Jesus was a henotheist. If this is your belief you may want to become a Mormon. | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 2:49:58 PM | ^ why don't you read John 17........how many times do i have to tell you!......there are other passages as well.......you should stop listening to your imam and read the Bible for yourself!
What the **** are you talking about 46 your old virgin? Why the **** would you assume that I am Muslim? You got no brain in your head. I told you before that I have studied comparative religion and haven't come across a single verse in the Bible where Jesus has claimed divinity. Show me where he says "I am God" "Worship me" and I will do it right now. You are just damn fool. You won't understand. If you can't answer questions, don't post replies.
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
WHERE IS THE PART WHERE HE SAYS I AM GOD? GOD ASKING HIMSELF TO GET GLORIFIED? WHAT KIND OF GOD IS THAT?
Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
USING "AND" IN THIS STATEMENT "THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST". IT COULD BE ASSUMED THAT HE IS REFERRING TO TWO DIFFERENT BEINGS HERE, HIMSELF AND HIS CREATOR.
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
GOD GIVES HIMSELF A JOB AND THEN HE HOLDS HIMSELF ACCOUNTABLE FOR LETTING HIMSELF KNOW THAT HE HAS FINISHED THE WORK THAT HE HAS GIVEN TO HIMSELF!!! WEIRD.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jhn 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Jhn 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
GOD HAS GIVEN HIMSELF WORDS??????? IF GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME INDIVIDUAL, THEN WHY SAY THESE THINGS BACK TO HIMSELF? WAS HE LOOKING AT THE MIRROR????
Jhn 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jhn 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jhn 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Jhn 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Jhn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Jhn 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
SHOW ME THE VERSE WHERE HE SAYS I AM GOD WORSHIP ME!!!! THIS IS COMPLETE JOHN. DO YOU WANT ME TO PUT THE REST OF THE JOHN TOO?
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 6:22:09 PM | at count
read John 17:5
Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD with you before the world began!
......of course, he subordinate, because he is clothed in human flesh, constantly fending off satanic temptations........and he had NOT yet fullfilled his destiny!!!
the the meaning of 17;23 lies in the passages before 23.....20,21 and 22
he prays that they could become 'one'......just as the father and jesus are 'one'.......and hopefully they might become 'one' with the father.......by the principle of: 'I in them and you in me'
If this isn't demonstrative of his (pre-glory) divinity, i dont know what is! | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 6:28:44 PM | Wow I started this thread to discuss Jesus in different ways. I didn't think it was gonna result in name calling and belittlement.
God bless and take care,
Jimmy | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 6:37:24 PM | "the bible contains many contradictions, its accounts of Jesus were written LONG after his death, by men who didn't even know him."
Can you give me 5 contradictions of hand. Or did someone tell you that they are there just so that you won't study for yourself. Looks like someone doesn't want you to think for youself. Mattehew, Mark, John knew Jesus and they repeatedly say, especially John, that they were eye wittnesses. The only exception was Luke and he was an athority because he was a doctor, and he gave a medical view (miracals, crucifixtion). | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 7:16:53 PM | to passionboy
yes, you have put up john 17 and it is amazing how blind you are!
first of all, i don't assume you are a muslim......i am almost sure you are one!!....i've concluded this by reading enuff of your posts to say so!!!.......not only that but you are probably an indoctrinated muslim.......brainwashed by your mentors.....and probably given assignments!
you have studied nothing!....you were brainwashed!..........if you had really studied what you say you did, you would not be saying what you say!!!!...........all you are good at doing is cut and pasting to suit your means!!
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WHERE IS THE PART WHERE HE SAYS I AM GOD? GOD ASKING HIMSELF TO GET GLORIFIED? WHAT KIND OF GOD IS THAT?
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if jesus says the father is in me then what else could that mean?........he can ONLY be glorified when he completes the mission that the father sent him to do!!!!!..(read passage 5)
This is shows how much you know!!!!......if you were the kind of expert you say you are then you would already understand this, but you have been brainwashed too much!
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USING "AND" IN THIS STATEMENT "THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST". IT COULD BE ASSUMED THAT HE IS REFERRING TO TWO DIFFERENT BEINGS HERE, HIMSELF AND HIS CREATOR.
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this means that in order to know the father, they must first know jesus......yes they know ABOUT the father, but cannot know Him intimately until they see Him thru Jesus himself!...jesus is the access point!!!
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GOD HAS GIVEN HIMSELF WORDS??????? IF GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME INDIVIDUAL, THEN WHY SAY THESE THINGS BACK TO HIMSELF? WAS HE LOOKING AT THE MIRROR??
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jesus and the father are the same however since jesus was not yet glorified (until he completed his work)....he did not have power of attorney to enact salvation!
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SHOW ME THE VERSE WHERE HE SAYS I AM GOD WORSHIP ME!!!! THIS IS COMPLETE JOHN. DO YOU WANT ME TO PUT THE REST OF THE JOHN TOO?
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it was not for him to announce himself as God........it had to be evident to those who had faith........if it was written anywhere in the NT testament that jesus proclaimed to be God would you believe it???..........I would NOT!!!!!.........then he would have to show to everybody that he was God, which means that God would have to act NOT in his will but to will of the people.....it is like Satan tempting Jesus and he said to him, "If you are the son of God then jump off this cliff and you will surely not die".......if Jesus would have done this then this action would have been in response to Satanic influence and whatever would have resulted from jumping off the cliff would have been influenced by non-divine forces....God would never do that!
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Show me where he says "I am God" "Worship me" and I will do it right now.
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this is exactly what the pharasees said!!!........you would have made a good pharasee!!!....i'm glad jesus never arrogantly proclaimed himself as God with his mouth!!!...which is one of the reasons i believe him to be the Messiah.........in his ministry he demonstrated his divinity with the Father thru his actions (not his mouth)...and action speaks louder than words!
please DON"T bother replying to this post because i already know what you are going to say: you will say that this is "JUST MY OPINION"..........like a parrot, this is what you have been trained to reply back to everbody who responds in a way that is OVER YOUR COMPREHENSION! | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 7:22:35 PM | sum1real and passion,
Can we have a discussion without name calling or disrespect.
You can be right and rude and totally wrong because no one is gonna see past your insults.
God bless and take care,
Jimmy | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 7:30:04 PM | | my apologies to Jimmy, but i am quite familiar with passion's methodology......he has asked these similar questions in previous threads....more than once!!!......this is part of his programming!............i am just calling him out for what he truly respresents! | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 7:43:43 PM | | Read my last post on "Jesus Survives Crucifixion and lives to be 120 yrs old!" | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 7:49:01 PM |
If this isn't demonstrative of his (pre-glory) divinity, i dont know what is!
All this means is that Jesus had some existence before his physical birth and that he had some glory. He never says that his glory was equal to God's. He could just as easily be the archangel Michael or the reincarnation of Adam.
Honestly I don't see how you come to the conclusion that Jesus is God. Jesus always places himself in a subordinate position to God and always speaks of God in the second or third person. Jesus never claims to be God's equal and none of his miracles are qualitatively different from what other prophets did. Jesus is even called the first born of creation which proves that he's not divine.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature
Note that this says Jesus is the image of God, not God Himself. Adam, too, was the image of God. | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 7:53:45 PM | | I define gods as part of G-d. G-d is the ultimate reality. I believe any god in human form is a manifestation of that LIFE--part of, but not the whole. ...and the whole is even greater than the sum of the parts. Did Jesus claim to BE the only God? Oddly (?) neither does the God (the 'WE' and 'OUR') of the OT... thou shall have not others BEFORE... admits there are other ones (yet all ONE in some ways), doesn't that? | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 8:20:41 PM | at count
once you put it into proper context you'll see what i mean:
"he is the image of the invisible God".......of course, when he walked the Earth, he was (as believers feel) the image of the invisible God.....Not because he announced it but because he lived it!
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All this means is that Jesus had some existence before his physical birth and that he had some glory. He never says that his glory was equal to God's
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he had more than 'some' glory........re-read john 17;5......."with the glory i had WITH you"
........who else had glory WITH god?........the only other one who i know that tried to attain the same glory was lucifer and look what happened to him!
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Honestly I don't see how you come to the conclusion that Jesus is God. Jesus always places himself in a subordinate position to God and always speaks of God in the second or third person.
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read the responses i gave to passion-man who essentially asks the same type of question!!!....why would jesus need to announce to everybody that he is God?........his miracles are not better than the prophets?.......i don't think jesus was involved in a contest of miracles, that was not the criteria for judging his divinity, otherwise he would have performed them right in front of the pharasees when they asked his to "show us some of your miracles" (i forgot what reading that's from)......he could have easily turned them into a bunch of pigs!!!!.....better than that, he could have turned all of the sanhedrin into a troop of baboons in everybody's view, and he would have "scared" everybody into believing in him!..but that is NOT the character of GOD.............'First born' doesn't imply physical birth as we know it.........it mean's that christ's supremacy requires that NOT ONLY that 'nothing' appear in creation except in relation to him, BUT also, that he himself share in the creation of all things....thus he existed (prior to his earthy birth) before creation itself came into being!
This gets us DEEP into Christology and it becomes hard to fish out words to express my thoughts.....so i don't know if i'm coming across or not! | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 10:14:17 PM |
i don't think jesus was involved in a contest of miracles, that was not the criteria for judging his divinity,
What are the criteria? | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/2/2005 10:46:47 PM | | I think G-d can do things that make you think 'holy sh-t!" But, G-d doesn't do those things for that reason... there is something more to that, later, bigger, etc. | |
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| Jesus Christ
Posted: 10/3/2005 7:44:40 PM | count!
the criteria is simply the fact that he was a righteous man like no one ever........faultless, in the highest sense.........never compromised his own spirituality for any reason.......obedient (to the father & subservient) to the hilt!........never shyed away from adversity............and the BIGGIE is: he never yearned to be accepted, and he came to serve!........his miracles were NOT of his doing but the will of his father (to whom he was subservient to until his glorification)......as one with the father, he could have performed all the miracles he wanted but again, he yielded to the will of his father!
i'm sure you know this yourself Count!.......you are just playing opossum here! | |
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