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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/21/2006 3:52:53 PM | In the Creation: (a) "in the beginning God [God the Father] created the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1) (b) "And the Spirit of God [God the Spirit] was hovering over the face of the waters"(Gen 1:2) (c) "You, Lord [God the Son], in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands" (Heb 1:10). God the Son, Jesus Christ, "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him (Jesus Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist" (col. 1:15 -17)
In the above verses we see the Trinity creating and sustaning the heavens and the earth. In the baptism of the believer: "Go therefore adn make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28-19) Notice that we are to babtize in the name (NOT NAMES) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, because the three are one God. | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/21/2006 5:16:55 PM | Sorry, but...
1. Hebrews has an anonymous writer. 2. Said anonymous writer created Hebrews 1, out of old Psalms. 3. Hebrews 1:10 is actually Psalm 102:25 "In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.", which was directed at God, himself. 4. In Hebrews 1, the anonymous writer isn't claiming to have heard the word of God, he's simply guessing at what God is saying, up in heaven. 5. It contradicts Isaiah 44.
Isaiah 44: Israel the Chosen
1 "But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.
2 This is what the LORD says— he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.
4 They will spring up like grass in a meadow, like poplar trees by flowing streams.
5 One will say, 'I belong to the LORD '; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, 'The LORD's,' and will take the name Israel.
The LORD, Not Idols
6 "This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come— yes, let him foretell what will come.
8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
9 All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame.
10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit him nothing?
11 He and his kind will be put to shame; craftsmen are nothing but men. Let them all come together and take their stand; they will be brought down to terror and infamy.
12 The blacksmith takes a tool and works with it in the coals; he shapes an idol with hammers, he forges it with the might of his arm. He gets hungry and loses his strength; he drinks no water and grows faint.
13 The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in the form of man, of man in all his glory, that it may dwell in a shrine.
14 He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak. He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.
15 It is man's fuel for burning; some of it he takes and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread. But he also fashions a god and worships it; he makes an idol and bows down to it.
16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm; I see the fire."
17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god."
18 They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
19 No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, "Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?"
20 He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, "Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?"
21 "Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant; O Israel, I will not forget you.
22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you."
23 Sing for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done this; shout aloud, O earth beneath. Burst into song, you mountains, you forests and all your trees, for the LORD has redeemed Jacob, he displays his glory in Israel.
Jerusalem to Be Inhabited
24 "This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
25 who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense,
26 who carries out the words of his servants and fulfills the predictions of his messengers, who says of Jerusalem, 'It shall be inhabited,' of the towns of Judah, 'They shall be built,' and of their ruins, 'I will restore them,'
27 who says to the watery deep, 'Be dry, and I will dry up your streams,'
28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." '
Hebrews is not the best reference, I must say.
Another example:
God said to Jesus, "You are my son today I have begotten you" [Heb.5:5]
God said to David, "You are my son today I have begotten you"[Psalm2:7]
Colossians 1: The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
The definitions of "image", "firstborn", and "beginning", kind of contradict the definition of "eternal", which God is supposed to be.
I believe in one God the Father Almighty Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by Whom all things were made: Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man: And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried: And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures: And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father: And he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead: Whose Kingdom will have no end: And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets. And I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the Resurrection of the Dead: And the Life of the world to come. Amen.
Why does God (a.k.a. Jesus) need to be baptized? How can God (a.k.a. Jesus) be tempted, when he's almighty? How can God (a.k.a. Jesus) grow in wisdom, when he's all knowing? Who does God (a.k.a. Jesus) pray to? Why does God (a.k.a. Jesus), the all knowing, almighty, need to come to Earth? How can God (a.k.a. Jesus) suffer? How can God (a.k.a. Jesus) forsake himself? How can God (a.k.a. Jesus), the almighty, be greater than himself? How can God (a.k.a. Jesus), the eternal, be his own Father, and his own Son?
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? [Locked - Excessive Preaching] Posted: 12/21/2006 8:24:27 PM | rely not on your own understanding .....
Hmmmmm, if not my own understanding...Then who's??? Should I follow the understanding of Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Shintos? Please don't tell me I should follow the understanding of JW's, or those guys who followed Jones or David Koresch.
What's that??? Your understanding comes from the Bible??? Funny....everyone seems to say that. | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/21/2006 8:42:03 PM | | I think one of the biggest obstacles ppl that are nonbelievers have is this "show me evidence" mindset. Christianity is faith-based. If you are a "if I can't see it, touch it, smell it, etc" person, you'll have a hard time debating Christian-based beliefs. God expects me to place my faith in him, not to say "prove it to me Lord" and then we'll talk. | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/21/2006 9:08:21 PM | That depends on what you are asking and who's doing the asking I guess...
If you are debating a matter of historical fact or scientific reality rather than an issue of faith, of course one will want facts and evidence.
The OP's question was essentially whether or not the Scripture seemed to offer a contradictory picture to the claims of Jesus as "God Himself" as is claimed by Trinitarians and whether or not people believed that idea was tenable...
So I guess the floor has been open to that debate for twelve odd pages...
No one is saying you still can't believe the issue is resolved on blind faith if you still want. However, expecting others to feel guilty for not jumping in the leaky boat with you...have to say is a trifle odd. And I am quite prepared to accept some things I can't readily explain...I just don't see the Divinity of Christ being supported by the Scripture or the faith it sprang from...quite the opposite actually...and to me, the idea of a man-god is not something that would really have emerged out of Temple Judaism but either a much much earlier or much much later period...as it seems to have. But that is an argument that scholars and historians accept and "believers" do not, as a rule. | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 12:08:11 AM | | Don't believe in religion. Its manschauvonistic. No thanks. Every woman that is religious is doing a crime against her own integrity and rights. Thank a man for her/his life? Sorry guys but the only one to thank is ur mom. | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 12:12:50 AM | | This topic has been the subject of debate for over 1700 years. differing christology has resulted in so many different "heretical" theologies that it is not even funny any more. | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 1:09:14 AM | For the questions at the end of your message Open Book.....
1) To obey and fulfill all righteousness. That includes obeying the commandments, those past and those he was to bring forth.
2)Christ cannot be tempted. But Satan did not know what powers Christ did or did not have as a God in human form. Thus he tempted him.
3)He didn't. Check out 1st Sam. 2:26 to Luke 2:52.
4) Chrst prayed to the Father which we were also told to do through His name.
5) see #1.
6)Christ has emotions as we. He felt the rainbow of emotional turmoil as we. Feeling emotions is not a sin. How you react to an emotion can become a sin.
7)The same way you can foresake your ownself.
8)He isn't, unless you believe in the Trinity which I do not.
9)He can't, unless you believe in the Trinity which I do not.
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 4:56:16 AM |
rely not on your own understanding. the lord is my shepard i shall not want
And that, my friends, is the mantra of many a minister who cannot defend their own beliefs through scripture; because scripture will never support that Jesus was God. | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 8:44:32 AM |
1) To obey and fulfill all righteousness. That includes obeying the commandments, those past and those he was to bring forth.
2)Christ cannot be tempted. But Satan did not know what powers Christ did or did not have as a God in human form. Thus he tempted him.
3)He didn't. Check out 1st Sam. 2:26 to Luke 2:52.
4) Chrst prayed to the Father which we were also told to do through His name.
5) see #1.
6)Christ has emotions as we. He felt the rainbow of emotional turmoil as we. Feeling emotions is not a sin. How you react to an emotion can become a sin.
7)The same way you can foresake your ownself.
8)He isn't, unless you believe in the Trinity which I do not.
9)He can't, unless you believe in the Trinity which I do not.
1. But to who was he baptized? Considering that he (according to the Trinity) is God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Why would he need it? _____
2. Satan was/is a servant, of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, not a foe. He tests mortals faith, for God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. Why would he test his own master, and under who's orders? _____
3. 1 Samuel 2:26 And the boy Samuel continued to grow in stature and in favor with the LORD and with men. (no mention of wisdom)
Luke 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. (How can the all knowing, grow in wisdom?) _____
4. Why would you pray to an equal part of yourself? _____
5. If he's almighty and all knowing, he wouldn't need to come to Earth. _____
6. So, it's about emotional suffering? Not about how he was treated and crusified? _____
7. I couldn't forsake myself, if I was all knowing and all powerful. I'm not really sure I can forsake (To quit or leave entirely; to desert; to abandon; to depart or withdraw from; to leave; To renounce; to reject; to refuse.) myself, anyway. _____
8. & 9. Ahhh, your answers would hold up (except maybe the growing in wisdom one), if Jesus was not God. I don't really have a debate for someone who believes Jesus wasn't God. My questions are asked in the Trinitarian context.
rely not on your own understanding. the lord is my shepard i shall not want
I think one of the biggest obstacles ppl that are nonbelievers have is this "show me evidence" mindset. Christianity is faith-based.
Faith? Where did the idea of the Trinity come from, if not from the bible? It's impossible to prove that the Trinity is true, but at least prove how the Trinity theory is compatible with the bible. IMO, the Trinity "proofs" are only compatible, if taken figuratively...meaning no Trinity.
In the gospel of Matthew Ch. 27 vs.50 - 54 we may read a sequence of events that could not have been caused by the death of a mere man.
If God is almighty, he could do that with any man, he chose to.
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 9:43:57 AM | | Jesus was a man who did gods will.man [ empiror Constantine ] and all the other pegan tribes made jesus devine.Today there is no dought in my mind jesus is devine . however god as we know him made jesus. | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 10:26:38 AM | If everything is based on faith, then why do so many people quote the Bible as "proof"....
"Here's the proof....it's in the Bible"....
Okay, but this passage contradicts that passage....
"That's not a contradiction, you just have to pray and take it on faith...." | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 10:31:34 AM | The bible is only proof of what some people a long time ago thought, believed, or hallucinated (I have no idea, I didn't watch them write their books).
They contradict each other because, let's face it, no matter HOW many times you go through a bunch of books on the same subject - stuff won't always add up, its written by different people, with different viewpoints.
And, to quote a very good movie... "It's really more like a guideline, than a rule anyway" | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 11:29:47 AM | cptbeam.....
Hmmmm, I wonder if when paul wrote that letter....did he know that a couple hundred years later it would be called scripture??? So a Pagan Emperor of Rome convenes a counsel and determines what will be Christian "scripture"???
What of Muslim Scripture, the Koran??? Or the Hindu Gita...or the Book of Mormon for that matter???
Interesting conversation though I must say. Should I believe Biblical scripture??? Of course, it says so in the Bible!!! | |
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| Was Jesus Christ the Son of God... or God Himself? Posted: 12/22/2006 2:16:09 PM | The Baptism of Jesus:
John the Baptist’s mother, Elizabeth, had surely told him at least part of the story concerning Jesus’ birth and it’s angelic announcements. He also must have known that Jesus had been born in Bethlehem, the Prophesied birthplace of the Christ. A heavenly voice instructed John that the Christ would be positively identified by a visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit, descending like a dove and remaining on Him. This final identifying sign appeared when Jesus came to John for baptism.
It was Jesus who came to John to be baptized. Christ is an example to all believers. The rule of courtesy has always been that the less walks over to the greater; the one seeking mercy seeks out his master. Jesus did not wait for John to come to Him, but in humility He came to John to be baptized. As He said, "Thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness". Because He was not a sinner, Jesus did not need to repent. He came to be baptized because it was the right thing to do in order to identify Himself with the God seekers in the land
Jesus actually was baptized by John. If Christ submitted to baptism by John because it was the proper thing to do how much more important it is that every convert to Christ "follow the Lord" in baptism when we as sinners now cleansed, have been plainly directed to be baptized Baptism is an outward symbol of an inward cleansing. | |
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